Will the MCAT follow the path of USMLE Step 1 and become a pass/fail exam?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Nope, not even a little bit. AAMC tried to make a push for the MCAT to be treated as pass/fail back when they designed the new score scale and told admissions committees to treat everything 500+ as adequate to predict success. We know how that went.

If they ever tried to force the issue by only reporting Pass/Fail, they'd be begging for a new org to come in and offer something new (like the ACT arriving to compete with the SAT) for medical schools to use instead.
 
efle said:
Nope, not even a little bit. AAMC tried to make a push for the MCAT to be treated as pass/fail back when they designed the new score scale and told admissions committees to treat everything 500+ as adequate to predict success. We know how that went.

If they ever tried to force the issue by only reporting Pass/Fail, they'd be begging for a new org to come in and offer something new (like the ACT arriving to compete with the SAT) for medical schools to use instead.
Click to expand...

Yep and PDs will find another metric for residencies. IMO it would make more sense for a P/F MCAT due it testing innate aptitude and critical thinking rather than pure memorization
 
gulli_97 said:
Yep and PDs will find another metric for residencies. IMO it would make more sense for a P/F MCAT due it testing innate aptitude and critical thinking rather than pure memorization
Click to expand...
Honestly, I bet PDs would rather test critical thinking in their applicants than rote memory/recall. The step screening didn't arise because they thought it was measuring the skills they want in a resident; it arose by necessity because the numbers of applications per spot skyrocketed (in some specialties, people are now advised to apply every program in the nation, period).
 
No. Then Adcoms would just judge applicants based on GPA, which is meaningless because there are no academic standards barring the occasional gem of a professor. MCAT is meaningless too but at least it tells you how good you are at the MCAT and playing the CARS lottery.
 
When something that was previously used by gatekeepers to determine entry is no longer available (e.g., a score is reduced to P/F), the gatekeepers will inevitably turn to other metrics to determine entry. This may be good or bad for you personally, but you will still be judged. If the MCAT were P/F, adcoms would have less information by which to judge applicants (or new tests/metrics would be created). That would only be a good thing if MCAT scores had no correlation with performance in medical school or as a doctor, which (at least arguably) is not the case given that high MCAT scores correlate with high Step scores.
 
Last edited:
The REAL Doc McStuffins said:
Absolutely not. That would be a disaster and anybody could get in
Click to expand...

If you consider that MCAT scores correlate with family SES, then maybe a pass/fail and the idea that "anybody" could get in wouldn't be a bad thing. The deck is stacked against folks who can't afford a $$$$ prep class, 3 mos of 50 hr/wk studying (while being supported financially by parents or others), and access to a bunch of costly practice tests.

If MCAT = 500 is a minimum score indicating a high llkelihood of success in medical school, and the Step is pass/fail such that we don't need something to distinguish those who will score high on step 1 (which again favors those who have the cash to purchase optional study materials) then maybe a pass/fail MCAT makes sense. I'd set pass at 125 in each section.
 
Last edited:
Mythoclast said:
No. Then Adcoms would just judge applicants based on GPA, which is meaningless because there are no academic standards barring the occasional gem of a professor. MCAT is meaningless too but at least it tells you how good you are at the MCAT and playing the CARS lottery.
Click to expand...
I'm 3 years into medical school and I still think about my CARS section on the MCAT. I wouldn't take that exam again if you paid me.
 
No it wont go pass fail. Got a 498 MCAT aka garbage. MCAT cars is a ****show and the mind terrorizing done on the MCAT is greater than Step IMO. MCAT=So and so is triple disinhibited with 14 double negatives. I can critical think when it comes to medical topics done very well in first 2 years of med school but the MCAT was absolutely horrific
 
LizzyM said:
If you consider that MCAT scores correlate with family SES, then maybe a pass/fail and the idea that "anybody" could get in wouldn't be a bad thing. The deck is stacked against folks who can't afford a $$$$ prep class, 3 mos of 50 hr/wk studying (while being supported financially by parents or others), and access to a bunch of costly practice tests.

If MCAT = 500 is a minimum score indicating a high llkelihood of success in medical school, and the Step is pass/fail such that we don't need something to distinguish those who will score high on step 1 (which again favors those who have the cash to purchase optional study materials) then maybe a pass/fail MCAT makes sense. I'd set pass at 125 in each section as pass.
Click to expand...
With all due respect, is there any reason any school cannot do that now? Just because scores are released doesn't mean every school has to use them! What's stopping any given school, Harvard, Columbia, etc. from leading the way and saying 500 and above indicates competence and a high likelihood of success, and not giving extra weight in the admissions process to scores above that threshold due to the correlation of high scores with privilege and no additional correlation with success???

Why does the world need to move to P/F in order for a leader to make a stand? So what if NYU's median MCAT is 522 and Columbia's is 508? If it's because everyone wants the the best students and the best students have the highest scores, then nothing will change because the same people will still be attending the same schools, whether or not the MCAT is P/F, with the few exceptions being the rare brilliant student who just cannot perform on a standardized test. 🙂

Not sure what's going to replace it, but I'm pretty sure anyone who thinks the match is going to become an open lottery among all qualified applicants now that an overused metric is being eliminated is kidding themselves. In the end, it just looks like USMLE is going to be forcing the replacement of one overused stressor of medical students for another.
 
KnightDoc said:
With all due respect, is there any reason any school cannot do that now? Just because scores are released doesn't mean every school has to use them! What's stopping any given school, Harvard, Columbia, etc. from leading the way and saying 500 and above indicates competence and a high likelihood of success, and not giving extra weight in the admissions process to scores above that threshold due to the correlation of high scores with privilege and no additional correlation with success???

Why does the world need to move to P/F in order for a leader to make a stand? So what if NYU's median MCAT is 522 and Columbia's is 508? If it's because everyone wants the the best students and the best students have the highest scores, then nothing will change because the same people will still be attending the same schools, whether or not the MCAT is P/F, with the few exceptions being the rare brilliant student who just cannot perform on a standardized test. 🙂

Not sure what's going to replace it, but I'm pretty sure anyone who thinks the match is going to become an open lottery among all qualified applicants now that an overused metric is being eliminated is kidding themselves. In the end, it just looks like USMLE is going to be forcing the replacement of one overused stressor of medical students for another.
Click to expand...
Plenty of schools let in students who otherwise wouldn't get in. If you look at MSAR there are outliers at most schools.
 
You can’t conflate MCAT and Step. One is an aptitude test and one is a licensing exam. This is no different than LSAT vs. Bar which is also a scored exam and a P/F exam.
Standardized tests are an equalizer so schools can asses knowledge pertinent to success in that professional degree. Licensing only involves a level of competency to practice.
 
KnightDoc said:
With all due respect, is there any reason any school cannot do that now? Just because scores are released doesn't mean every school has to use them! What's stopping any given school, Harvard, Columbia, etc. from leading the way and saying 500 and above indicates competence and a high likelihood of success, and not giving extra weight in the admissions process to scores above that threshold due to the correlation of high scores with privilege and no additional correlation with success???

Why does the world need to move to P/F in order for a leader to make a stand? So what if NYU's median MCAT is 522 and Columbia's is 508? If it's because everyone wants the the best students and the best students have the highest scores, then nothing will change because the same people will still be attending the same schools, whether or not the MCAT is P/F, with the few exceptions being the rare brilliant student who just cannot perform on a standardized test. 🙂

Not sure what's going to replace it , but I'm pretty sure anyone who thinks the match is going to become an open lottery among all qualified applicants now that an overused metric is being eliminated is kidding themselves. In the end, it just looks like USMLE is going to be forcing the replacement of one overused stressor of medical students for another.
Click to expand...
For now, CK
 
KnightDoc said:
With all due respect, is there any reason any school cannot do that now? Just because scores are released doesn't mean every school has to use them! What's stopping any given school, Harvard, Columbia, etc. from leading the way and saying 500 and above indicates competence and a high likelihood of success, and not giving extra weight in the admissions process to scores above that threshold due to the correlation of high scores with privilege and no additional correlation with success???
<snip>
Click to expand...

You are right, of course, and I wish my school would lead the way but as long as the Deans of the medical schools use the USNews ranks as a measure of their own worth, and as long as MCAT score is a small part of the formula, there will be an arms race to sign the applicants with the highest scores although we know that they don't necessarily make the best doctors for the needs of society.
 
Sunbodi said:
Plenty of schools let in students who otherwise wouldn't get in. If you look at MSAR there are outliers at most schools.
Click to expand...
Of course, but that's not the point, because those are the exceptions (outliers) rather than the rule.
 
I think In the future med school admission could be different. MCAT could become pass/fail. But now to get admitted to medical school, they would require a postbac or masters where the applicants take (histology, medical biochemistry, pathology, gross or medical anatomy, medical genetics, embryology....) They would screen students that pass those classes with a C or better. That could actually help them have students that are medical school ready due to being exposed to the material already.
 
Saltlf2017 said:
I think In the future med school admission could be different. MCAT could become pass/fail. But now to get admitted to medical school, they would require a postbac or masters where the applicants take (histology, medical biochemistry, pathology, gross or medical anatomy, medical genetics, embryology....) They would screen students that pass those classes with a C or better. That could actually help them have students that are medical school ready due to being exposed to the material already.
Click to expand...
How do you standardize those courses though so many different confounding variables
 
Deecee2DO said:
How do you standardize those courses though so many different confounding variables
Click to expand...
Yeah this will never be possible. At least med schools can be somewhat standardized because they all have to teach to the same profession, but not everyone in undergrad bio 101 is going to go to med school so it wouldn’t make sense to standardize that class solely as it applies to medical school applicants.
 
StanleyYelnats said:
Yeah this will never be possible. At least med schools can be somewhat standardized because they all have to teach to the same profession, but not everyone in undergrad bio 101 is going to go to med school so it wouldn’t make sense to standardize that class solely as it applies to medical school applicants.
Click to expand...
Yeah i agree. I mean I get the purpose of the MCAT now as much as I loathed that test as a premed. It does standardize which is good but I do however think its way overemphasized but then again I am not sure how to stratify applicants if 500+ would be the new standard for success (which we all know pretty much is at or at least around 500). Then again for the top tier schools everyone has a 520+ so how do they stratify? I dont know lol if you take emphasis off one factor everything shifts regardless to something else so we cant really win. I like the idea of breaking up the MCAT and Step 1 into quartiles of some sort
 
KnightDoc said:
With all due respect, is there any reason any school cannot do that now? Just because scores are released doesn't mean every school has to use them! What's stopping any given school, Harvard, Columbia, etc. from leading the way and saying 500 and above indicates competence and a high likelihood of success, and not giving extra weight in the admissions process to scores above that threshold due to the correlation of high scores with privilege and no additional correlation with success???

Why does the world need to move to P/F in order for a leader to make a stand? So what if NYU's median MCAT is 522 and Columbia's is 508? If it's because everyone wants the the best students and the best students have the highest scores, then nothing will change because the same people will still be attending the same schools, whether or not the MCAT is P/F, with the few exceptions being the rare brilliant student who just cannot perform on a standardized test. 🙂

Not sure what's going to replace it, but I'm pretty sure anyone who thinks the match is going to become an open lottery among all qualified applicants now that an overused metric is being eliminated is kidding themselves. In the end, it just looks like USMLE is going to be forcing the replacement of one overused stressor of medical students for another.
Click to expand...
It's not just US News valuing it that makes schools value it. We (applicants) also value it. Whether it be for college, med school, law school, etc, one of the big ways that competitive applicants determine what schools to apply to is asking, "What schools have student bodies full of people like me?" The best and brightest want to learn and train with the best and brightest, and test scores, GPAs, and prestige are part of identifying those places.
 
TheDavidLettermanShow said:
Nope. There will literally be no differentiating factor then among applicants besides GPA (which tends to be higher at low tier colleges). Step 2 CK is going to be the new Step 1. Nothing has really changed, just a new metric.
Click to expand...

God I wish. I remember taking a upper division summer course with 10 people. The professor said she aims for a 70 average for the class.
I rocked a solid C along with 5 other people. All of these people were premeds in the home stretch before applying and I knew most of them were smart. My grade in the fall class would have been much higher. I never understood the irony of professors who critique studies in class, saying the sample size is too small and such. They then turn around and test 2 concepts out of 10 on a 20 question test were each point is worth 5% or curve a class down to keep an average. I have no idea how GPA can even be compared amongst students with different schedules/professors at the same university, let alone across the country.
 
Goro said:
Nope. Unlike Boards, MCAT has actually predictive value.

And it doesn't make people literally sick, the way Step I does.
Click to expand...

Isn't this debatable? Every time I read about the correlation between MCAT and Step scores its usually a weak one, particularly after a certain score.
 
osamine said:
Isn't this debatable? Every time I read about the correlation between MCAT and Step scores its usually a weak one, particularly after a certain score.
Click to expand...
What's more important is that it is predictive for failure in medical school below a certain point. That is a critical Factor.
 
osamine said:
Isn't this debatable? Every time I read about the correlation between MCAT and Step scores its usually a weak one, particularly after a certain score.
Click to expand...
Pearson of 0.5-0.6

The correlation of step to boards is even weaker, it plateus around lower 200s. The whole idea of 250 > 230 for specialty boarding purposes was never based on any real data.
 
FISTMCLARGEHUGE said:
God I wish. I remember taking a upper division summer course with 10 people. The professor said she aims for a 70 average for the class.
I rocked a solid C along with 5 other people. All of these people were premeds in the home stretch before applying and I knew most of them were smart. My grade in the fall class would have been much higher. I never understood the irony of professors who critique studies in class, saying the sample size is too small and such. They then turn around and test 2 concepts out of 10 on a 20 question test were each point is worth 5% or curve a class down to keep an average. I have no idea how GPA can even be compared amongst students with different schedules/professors at the same university, let alone across the country.
Click to expand...
Another reason why we have the MCAT!
 
Goro said:
Nope. Unlike Boards, MCAT has actually predictive value.

And it doesn't make people literally sick, the way Step I does.
Click to expand...
Maybe im weird but if i had a choice id much rather MCAT be pass fail than Step 1. Hated that test. At least when im studying step im interested in the material and UWorld/Rx/any other qbank questions arent nearly as horrible as MCAT questions at least for me. The mcat is basically a giant CARS, LSAT exam with mental math advertised as “science” topics. However, I do understand the purpose of the MCAT and I think its current use is the only thing we have to standardization across all applicants. Its an important part of the app process
 
Last edited:
osamine said:
Isn't this debatable? Every time I read about the correlation between MCAT and Step scores its usually a weak one, particularly after a certain score.
Click to expand...
MCAT has more of a correlation to handling med school. that is it. After a certain point it doesnt predict anything. Poor correlation with Step 1. Step 1 best correlation is with preclinical grades than anything. After around 500 on mcat you should be fine in med school but someone who got a 507 vs a 515 doesnt mean the 515 is guaranteed to get all As in med school and the 507 all Bs it doesnt really correlate like that. MCAT measures competency for handling the massive volume and the motivstion to sit and study for obscene number of hours for long periods of time
 
Deecee2DO said:
MCAT has more of a correlation to handling med school. that is it. After a certain point it doesnt predict anything. Poor correlation with Step 1. Step 1 best correlation is with preclinical grades than anything. After around 500 on mcat you should be fine in med school but someone who got a 507 vs a 515 doesnt mean the 515 is guaranteed to get all As in med school and the 507 all Bs it doesnt really correlate like that. MCAT measures competency for handling the massive volume and the motivstion to sit and study for obscene number of hours for long periods of time
Click to expand...

Tell that to the schools I applied to lol! Its a pity its not treated in the manner mentioned in this thread.
 
osamine said:
Tell that to the schools I applied to lol! Its a pity its not treated in the manner mentioned in this thread.
Click to expand...
I know lol its just the way it is. For what its worth I had a 497 MCAT and I have done very well in med school. Maybe its because I just enjoy the material so much more or that mayve med school material was more relevant to my clinical science background idk but regardless I hate to make excuses. My crap MCAT was all my fault I just want to let premeds know that if you dont rock it it doesnt necessarily mean youre going to crash and burn in med school its just a higher likelihood the further you are away from 500 in the wrong direction
 
The REAL Doc McStuffins said:
I beg to differ. I’ve had several pre-med friends get so stressed out and anxious that they had heart problems before their exam.
Click to expand...
Goro said:
Case in points are not a defense.
Click to expand...
The waiting room for my MCAT def had some people with thousand yard stares and nervous tics, but same for Step. Might as well get your diagnosis early instead of passing out in front of a patient during your Step 2 CS
 
efle said:
The waiting room for my MCAT def had some people with thousand yard stares and nervous tics, but same for Step. Might as well get your diagnosis early instead of passing out in front of a patient during your Step 2 CS
Click to expand...

I joked with the proctor at the MCAT testing center that everyone was here looking like they were on death row!
 
walter_heisenberg said:
I joked with the proctor at the MCAT testing center that everyone was here looking like they were on death row!
Click to expand...
Did any fellow testers hear you, and, if so, what kind of reaction did you get? I have a friend who did that with the bar exam, and it didn't go over so well!!
 
KnightDoc said:
Did any fellow testers hear you, and, if so, what kind of reaction did you get? I have a friend who did that with the bar exam, and it didn't go over so well!!
Click to expand...

Hahah no. This was when they were palm scanning me into the room and nearly strip searching me like I was walking into a supermax facility!
 
You’d think all the premeds would be in favor of a scored MCAT. There are more than x2 applicants for every MD spot. There were nearly 900k applications sent. You want every piece of quantifiable data to help advance your chances. Yeah the test sucks and is stressful but maybe that’s ok.
 
CyrilFiggis said:
You’d think all the premeds would be in favor of a scored MCAT. There are more than x2 applicants for every MD spot. There were nearly 900k applications sent. You want every piece of quantifiable data to help advance your chances. Yeah the test sucks and is stressful but maybe that’s ok.
Click to expand...
I mean, the whole idea of the step Pass/fail change is that the need to stratify isn't sufficient grounds to misuse a metric. If the AAMC data says everything 500+ is equally likely to graduate on time and pass boards, and there's no more use for the moderate Step 1 correlation, it gets pretty hard to defend the MCAT without invoking similar logic.

It would definitely increase the numbers of gap years and the importance of where you go to college
 
Goro said:
Another reason why we have the MCAT!
Click to expand...

But we're told that MCAT doesn't make up for GPA. So in theory you could have an engineering major from a super tough school like MIT with a 3.3 that could run circles around a 3.7-3.8 bio major who cherry picked classes at an easy school*. That's why I find the whole admissions process baffling.

*Before we start a debate on the prestige of undergraduates, the rigor of a school can be independent from its ranking. Some of the Ivies are known for grade inflation too.
 
DNAJB6 said:
But we're told that MCAT doesn't make up for GPA. So in theory you could have an engineering major from a super tough school like MIT with a 3.3 that could run circles around a 3.7-3.8 bio major who cherry picked classes at an easy school*. That's why I find the whole admissions process baffling.

*Before we start a debate on the prestige of undergraduates, the rigor of a school can be independent from its ranking. Some of the Ivies are known for grade inflation too.
Click to expand...
Yea, at least at the highly ranked medical schools, it appears you still need the straight A's even if you went to a deflating competitive undergrad

Personally if it was my younger sibling, I'd never ever recommend they go somewhere like MIT if they were planning on premed.
 
DNAJB6 said:
But we're told that MCAT doesn't make up for GPA. So in theory you could have an engineering major from a super tough school like MIT with a 3.3 that could run circles around a 3.7-3.8 bio major who cherry picked classes at an easy school*. That's why I find the whole admissions process baffling.

*Before we start a debate on the prestige of undergraduates, the rigor of a school can be independent from its ranking. Some of the Ivies are known for grade inflation too.
Click to expand...
And my answer would be that the engineer made that choice and now has to live it it. And no matter what the major, one still has to take the pre-reqs.
 
Goro said:
And my answer would be that the engineer made that choice and now has to live it it. And no matter what the major, one still has to take the pre-reqs.
Click to expand...
I have some sympathy because they lie their ass off to highschoolers. Go on a walking tour for high schoolers of Hopkins undergrad and it's all roses and rainbows. Talk to anyone on the other side of the meat grinder and it's a different story. Caveat emptor, I guess.
 
efle said:
I have some sympathy because they lie their ass off to highschoolers. Go on a walking tour for high schoolers of Hopkins undergrad and it's all roses and rainbows. Talk to anyone on the other side of the meat grinder and it's a different story. Caveat emptor, I guess.
Click to expand...
This basically describes all of higher education, including medical training, and highlights the importance of doing due diligence. This is why I recommend talking with third and fourth years about their and their peers' experiences. The opinions of first years, while well-meaning, is only marginally better than the blind leading the blind. Just my thoughts
 
Moko said:
This basically describes all of higher education, including medical training, and highlights the importance of doing due diligence. This is why I recommend talking with third and fourth years about their and their peers' experiences. The opinions of first years, while well-meaning, is only marginally better than the blind leading the blind. Just my thoughts
Click to expand...
This couldn't be more true. Talk to a 1st year at my school-they rave about it thats why they are used as tour guides lmao. Talk to a 2nd or 3rd year-they have a laundry list of all of the **** show that goes on behind closed doors that is the reality of the school as a whole (it is a business after all lol)
 
efle said:
I have some sympathy because they lie their ass off to highschoolers. Go on a walking tour for high schoolers of Hopkins undergrad and it's all roses and rainbows. Talk to anyone on the other side of the meat grinder and it's a different story. Caveat emptor, I guess.
Click to expand...

I know my undergrad changed tour routes based on the time of year. The farther along in the semester they avoided the library and some departments during busy hours. Too many students were yelling at the group to go to a different school and it is too hard. Granted one of my med school tours had a similar thing happen and the guys friend said to him, "No, you're just dumb Tyler." To which he replied "okay good point". So two sides to the argument I guess.
 
Med Ed said:
The MCAT is already pass/fail. Each medical school just sets its own passing score.
Click to expand...
Not exactly, since the passing score is different for each of us!!! 🙂
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

H
Elective Class Pass/Fail
Replies
3
Views
311
Goro
Goro
jakewagmin
Should I pass/fail physics for higher gpa?
Replies
4
Views
333
LunaOri
LunaOri
myribosomesbad
Pass/Fail
Replies
7
Views
1K
Sandman23
S
dlrs123
  • Question Question
Any way to see school specific Step 1 pass rates?
Replies
1
Views
1K
Hollow Knight
Hollow Knight
LMAGZ
Pass/Fail Medical Schools in Texas
Replies
2
Views
2K
wysdoc
wysdoc
Top