wipe that brown stuff off your face

[nonbilious]

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Alright, I need a letter.

But here's the deal, I have only been to the OR with the same attending maybe twice, and thats it. Just not getting much individual time. And the big dogs all seem to give off this vibe of, "don't even f'ing look me in the eye". Also, I can't stomach the massive brown nosing by other students and that seems whats necessary.

I get along well with fellow students and my residents b/c I work hard, get the job done and am generally a pleasant person. Thats usually where my best reviews come from and the attending never sees it.

Problem is.... I don't think the letter my intern or junior writes will carry much weight.

Advice?

 

[asmallchild]

I definitely wouldn't obtain a LOR from a resident.

 

[dynx]

Alright, I need a letter.

But here's the deal, I have only been to the OR with the same attending maybe twice, and thats it. Just not getting much individual time. And the big dogs all seem to give off this vibe of, "don't even f'ing look me in the eye". Also, I can't stomach the massive brown nosing by other students and that seems whats necessary.

I get along well with fellow students and my residents b/c I work hard, get the job done and am generally a pleasant person. Thats usually where my best reviews come from and the attending never sees it.

Problem is.... I don't think the letter my intern or junior writes will carry much weight.
ditto above: if you get a letter from a resident they'll probably take a dump on your application folder.

Advice?

If you're getting along well with a resident who is liked by the attendings have them help you out.

 

[SLUser11]

Alright, I need a letter.

But here's the deal, I have only been to the OR with the same attending maybe twice, and thats it. Just not getting much individual time. And the big dogs all seem to give off this vibe of, "don't even f'ing look me in the eye". Also, I can't stomach the massive brown nosing by other students and that seems whats necessary.

I get along well with fellow students and my residents b/c I work hard, get the job done and am generally a pleasant person. Thats usually where my best reviews come from and the attending never sees it.

Problem is.... I don't think the letter my intern or junior writes will carry much weight.

Advice?

If you need an LOR for next year's interview cycle, you have plenty of time. I recommend setting up an elective or Sub-I with one of the more famous attendings that you have. Then, you'll get that coveted 1-on-1 time. Also, you can say at the beginning of the rotation that you're applying to surgery, and you will be asking for a letter. They'll keep their eye on you more that way, good or bad.

As others have said, a letter from a resident is worthless.

 

[nonbilious]

If you need an LOR for next year's interview cycle, you have plenty of time. I recommend setting up an elective or Sub-I with one of the more famous attendings that you have. Then, you'll get that coveted 1-on-1 time. Also, you can say at the beginning of the rotation that you're applying to surgery, and you will be asking for a letter. They'll keep their eye on you more that way, good or bad.

As others have said, a letter from a resident is worthless.

I was kidding about the letter from my intern.... sorry a poor attempt at best. 🙄

That is exactly what I'm freaking about... LOR for the interview cycle. Can you set up subi or electives with a specific person? can you do this away as well?

also.... how do I find the famous people?

thanks

 

[smq123]

That is exactly what I'm freaking about... LOR for the interview cycle. Can you set up subi or electives with a specific person? can you do this away as well?

also.... how do I find the famous people?

thanks

It's rare to be able to set up an elective/sub-I with a specific person.

As for the famous people - people who have written several papers or helped write textbooks are generally well known in the field.

 

[SLUser11]

It's rare to be able to set up an elective/sub-I with a specific person.

I wouldn't say that. There are plenty of rotations that are set up to allow a lot of one on one interaction. If the big shot surgeon is on service A, you rotate on service A. You could then cater your rotation to spend most of your time with a specific person, especially if you've made your intentions known.

I was kidding about the letter from my intern.... sorry a poor attempt at best. 🙄

That is exactly what I'm freaking about... LOR for the interview cycle. Can you set up subi or electives with a specific person? can you do this away as well?

also.... how do I find the famous people?

thanks

Being "famous" is relative as well. Some people are known regionally, but relatively unknown nationally, but happen to be golfing buddies with a PD or two. Other people have published very little, but are active at national meetings, and may be officers in the ACS, etc.

I say you talk to someone with more intimate knowledge of your options than we can provide online: Talk to a newly-matched fourth year student, and find out what they did. He'll know who's "famous," and who's acessible/nice. Some people are known for writing good letters, while others aren't. We can't guess that on SDN.

All I was saying was that you don't need to get your LORs while on your 3rd year clerkship. In fact, I think you'd get much better letters based on your sub-Is for the exact reason you've already mentioned. They pay more attention to you when they know you're going into surgery.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

It's rare to be able to set up an elective/sub-I with a specific person.

True, but you can definitely set up a rotation for a specific service, on which a specific person attends. Then you cherry pick that person's cases, go to that person's clinic, etc. It's pretty well understood that the point of 4th year rotations is at least in part to get letters, so the residents understand/expect this.

 

[smq123]

I wouldn't say that. There are plenty of rotations that are set up to allow a lot of one on one interaction. If the big shot surgeon is on service A, you rotate on service A. You could then cater your rotation to spend most of your time with a specific person, especially if you've made your intentions known.

True, but you can definitely set up a rotation for a specific service, on which a specific person attends. Then you cherry pick that person's cases, go to that person's clinic, etc. It's pretty well understood that the point of 4th year rotations is at least in part to get letters, so the residents understand/expect this.

What both of you are saying is right (having done it myself). I don't think I explained myself very well, however.

It's difficult to apply to work with Dr. So-and-so. You generally sign up to work with that person's service - but this can be a crapshoot. Some attendings are not very hands on, or are so busy that they don't interact much with students. If there are a lot of people on their service (which can happen for well-known surgeons, who may also take on fellows), the student may not have much of a chance to shine in the OR. And if the fellow takes care of most of the rounding, then the student may not have a chance to shine on the floors, either.

SouthernIM - cherry picking someone's cases can be hard. I think the hardest thing for the 4th year sub-Is is that there are so many OTHER sub-Is on the rotation with you, and they all want the exact same thing that you do. So cherry picking, without stepping on other people's toes, is tough.

Plus, again, if it's a really big-name guy with a big service, he may have both a fellow and a resident (intern or PGY-2) who are scrubbing in with him...which doesn't leave a lot of room for you. Some big-name surgeons are better than others at incorporating med students into their services.

 

[surgres88]

Famous attendings letters would be great. But for those not privy to those coveted olympian heights.

Some people to think about getting letters from:
1) General Surgery Program directors. Program directors know each other and often have similar views of what makes a good resident.
2) Chairman of your department. They all seem to know each other, maybe from chairmandoctornetworkforums.net. Though this can backfire. If the chairman is going to write just a form letter for you then consider a letter from a Sub-I attending. The USC group interview with DeMeester, he asked all of the applicants about each and every letter written on the applicants behalf. It felt like he wanted to get a sense of how much stock to put in a letter or if it was merely a form letter.
3) Mentor- they write eloquently about what a star you are and how they have assessed and judged you to be able to excel in surgery and reach the Olympian heights.
4) Sub-I attendings: Attendings usually know you will be looking for one of these. If any attending offers to write a letter on your behalf without you addressing the topic, graciously accept that with groveling acceptance. This is unlikely to be a bad letter. If they don't offer you can ask them, just remember to give them enough time.
5) Surgery Course directors: they see all the students in your school. They grade them all. If you showed interest and they liked you.

 

[SocialistMD]

I was kidding about the letter from my intern.... sorry a poor attempt at best. 🙄

That is exactly what I'm freaking about... LOR for the interview cycle. Can you set up subi or electives with a specific person? can you do this away as well?

also.... how do I find the famous people?

thanks

You really, really, really need to set up a meeting with your school's General Surgery program director. Most of your questions can be answered by this person and they can give you guidance on things you've not even considered yet (where you should apply based on the strength of your application, your career aspirations, etc...) that may be incredibly helpful/scramble-preventing. Call their secretary or email them today to set up this meeting so you can create your fourth-year schedule.

 

[Lance]

The USC group interview with DeMeester, he asked all of the applicants about each and every letter written on the applicants behalf. It felt like he wanted to get a sense of how much stock to put in a letter or if it was merely a form letter.

This happened at the majority of my interviews in some form... "So... How was your rotation with so and so..." or "Oh, I know your chairman, how'd you like him" which kinda seemed like code for "Can the applicant tell me something about his letter writer to indicate that they actually know eachother.

Also, asking a graduating fourth year is great advice, and tell the senior resident on your service you're looking to get a letter from whomever and they'll usually help you out / put in a good word for you. In exchange for a little scutwork, of course.

 

[njbmd]

Alright, I need a letter.

But here's the deal, I have only been to the OR with the same attending maybe twice, and thats it. Just not getting much individual time. And the big dogs all seem to give off this vibe of, "don't even f'ing look me in the eye". Also, I can't stomach the massive brown nosing by other students and that seems whats necessary.

I get along well with fellow students and my residents b/c I work hard, get the job done and am generally a pleasant person. Thats usually where my best reviews come from and the attending never sees it.

Problem is.... I don't think the letter my intern or junior writes will carry much weight.

Advice?

Ask the attending for a LOR anyway. The attending is going to ask the residents about your performance. If you have doing a good job, you will get a good letter. None of my attendings ever wrote a letter for a student without asking me how they performed on the team.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

SouthernIM - cherry picking someone's cases can be hard. I think the hardest thing for the 4th year sub-Is is that there are so many OTHER sub-Is on the rotation with you, and they all want the exact same thing that you do. So cherry picking, without stepping on other people's toes, is tough.

We limit our Sub-I's to 1-2 students at a time (depending on the service), so at my school at least it is very possible. I'll be the only 4th year on service with one of our "big names" in August, so I will definitely be trying for a letter and sticking with him as much as possible.

Of course, one of the challenges as you mentioned is that you need to make sure the person you are trying to get a letter from is amenable to students and will make time to get to know you at least reasonably well.

 

[smq123]

We limit our Sub-I's to 1-2 students at a time (depending on the service), so at my school at least it is very possible. I'll be the only 4th year on service with one of our "big names" in August, so I will definitely be trying for a letter and sticking with him as much as possible.

So you're not going into IM as your name suggests? 😉

I'm just teasing. Good luck with your sub-I. I hope your attending welcomes students and makes an effort to get to know them.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

So you're not going into IM as your name suggests? 😉

I'm just teasing. Good luck with your sub-I. I hope your attending welcomes students and makes an effort to get to know them.

no...the IM was not medicine related, confusing as that is...