With or Without A Vet School?

[tbird9396]

Hey everyone,

So I have a question. My top 8 colleges are UMD, Rutgers, Penn State, Ohio State, Clemson, NC State, UGA, and U of FL (in no particular order). I plan on going to vet school, getting a DVM/PhD and going into comparative or biomedical research. What i want to know is, in my case, is better to go to a college that has a vet school if I plan on doing undergraduate research? Will it better prepare me for what i plan to do or does it really matter?

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[Minnerbelle]

I don't think it matters all that much. If you want to get involved in clinical research studies that are specific to vet med during UG, then it would be more advantageous to go to a school with a vet school. However... I don't see how that would make that much of a difference for your long term goal. The only thing would be that you'll have opportunities to connect with possible PhD mentors. But if you're thinking about doing a combined DVM/PhD program, you might want to think about your school choices. I might be making this up (since I never considered a combined program), but I don't think OSU or UF have combined programs where they will fund your entire education (someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought only CSU, Cornell, and Penn combined programs fund your entire DVM and gives you a stipend for the PhD portion).

If you want to go into comparative/biomedical research, my opinion is that the best thing to do would be to really get the foundations of basic research early on. You can easily move onto clinical research once you're in vet school or after vet school. However, if all you have is clinical research experience (like, does X drug help relieve constipation better than Y drug)... it can be harder to go into many aspects of biomedical research where classic training in biotech/molecular stuff is important in a lot of cases. You don't absolutely need it, but you'll be limiting yourself. Though take what I say with a grain of salt, because it really depends on exactly what kind of research you want to go into. And it's not like you can't pick some of these things up later in your education.

I might not be understanding you right when you say you want to go into comparative/biomedical research... but do you have a particular reason why DVM/PhD is the path you'd take? You definitely don't need a DVM to go into comparative/biomedical research. So unless you have a very specific goal in mind where a DVM is very helpful, I personally wouldn't go that route.

 

[jmo1012]

i doubt it really matters. i would pick an undergrad program that offered you the best opportunities to work in research (i.e. if you can, pick a big research institution-sounds like you plan on it).

i'd also look at the structure of the DVM/PhD programs offered at the different vet schools and see how they line up with your goals. i think some of them have very specific requirements for what your PhD is done on.

lastly, unless you're from georgia, i would seriously think about the fact that they accept 1-2 OOS students per year. you're going to have to be the most fantastic person to cross their paths that year to get in (and the combined degree is even more competitive) so it might not make much sense to set up shop there.

 

[breenie]

Places with vet schools have lots of pre-vets. Pre-vets are super annoying.

No but seriously, my undergrad had a vet school that I lived a 5 minute walk from. There were some opportunities there that I might not have had elsewhere... but it was kind of stressful having the ever looming presence of the marker of my success down the street.

Also it may have altered my attitude/feelings towards the school having to live/exist right next to it for 3 years and never being able to escape the rabid pre-vet/vet school madness.

 

[Marsala]

I agree with Breenie that there are some opportunities that you might not get elsewhere if you pick a school with a vet program. BUT...I go to Purdue, and around here it is almost impossible to get veterinary experience because there are so many pre-vets running around. Competition for jobs, volunteer opportunities, etc. is fierce. I sent out my resume (for volunteering) to 15 different clinics and got ONE positive response. I was offering to work for FREE and I got one lousy response. So I drive 30 minutes each way for this opportunity. I'm glad she gave me a chance.

I don't know if others have had this problem at other schools. Might not be as much of an issue in a large metropolitan area. Just my 2 cents.

And yes, pre-vets are very, very annoying.

 

[breenie]

I agree with Breenie that there are some opportunities that you might not get elsewhere if you pick a school with a vet program. BUT...I go to Purdue, and around here it is almost impossible to get veterinary experience because there are so many pre-vets running around. Competition for jobs, volunteer opportunities, etc. is fierce. I sent out my resume (for volunteering) to 15 different clinics and got ONE positive response. I was offering to work for FREE and I got one lousy response. So I drive 30 minutes each way for this opportunity. I'm glad she gave me a chance.

I don't know if others have had this problem at other schools. Might not be as much of an issue in a large metropolitan area. Just my 2 cents.

And yes, pre-vets are very, very annoying.

Nope. It's that way in Wisconsin, too, and I imagine it's similar here in Missouri.

I drove 45 minutes to spend time with a spectacular veterinarian. I was lucky to have the time and gas money, but I had a phenomenal experience because I went to an area that NEVER got pre-vets or kids wanting to hang out with the vets. Everyone loved me and I got to lots of crazy stuff. Not the case within a 20 minute drive of the university. Everywhere in town was saturated and sick of pre-vets.

Though I miraculously managed to get a vet assistant job right in town, it was mostly due to being in the right place at the right time.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I agree with Breenie that there are some opportunities that you might not get elsewhere if you pick a school with a vet program. BUT...I go to Purdue, and around here it is almost impossible to get veterinary experience because there are so many pre-vets running around. Competition for jobs, volunteer opportunities, etc. is fierce. I sent out my resume (for volunteering) to 15 different clinics and got ONE positive response. I was offering to work for FREE and I got one lousy response. So I drive 30 minutes each way for this opportunity. I'm glad she gave me a chance.

I don't know if others have had this problem at other schools. Might not be as much of an issue in a large metropolitan area. Just my 2 cents.

And yes, pre-vets are very, very annoying.

you guys bring up a really good point. I went to a small school that had nothing to do with vet school, and the fact that you were a self-declared pre-vet easily got you a job at a local clinic as an assistant right away. No need to volunteer or shadow or start as a kennel tech/receptionist and work your way up. Being a pre-vet even put me way in front of the line when it came to getting a job walking the college president's dog . And being in close proximity to Boston meant research opportunities galore with very well funded cutting edge research.

Though depending on your personality, not sure if being around pre-vets would be more annoying than being in an all girl's school (or ahem, excuse me... "it's not an all girl's school without men. It's an all women's college without boys" ).

 

[bunnity]

Go to the place that will give you the best financial situation and the best research opportunities; those are probably more important than having a vet school around.

 

[chickenlittle]

Based on my knowledge of those schools, any of them will have research opportunities available if you're dedicated enough to look for them. I'd go to whichever school will allow you to graduate with the least debt, as your debt levels on graduation from vet school will be the biggest factor in how much job flexibility you have.

 

[Lab Vet]

To the OP:

My I ask at what stage you are in your UG education? Have you begun your program at a particular school? Are you looking to transfer?

The reason I ask is that you'll definitely want to get involved in research before you pin it down as your actual 'end' career goal. Having spent the majority of my career thus far in research, I have cause to say that it's definitely not for everyone. As was stated in previous posts, my recommendation would be to get your feet wet with basic research first. Basic research is the foundation of all applied (be they clinical or otherwise) research avenues. Begin volunteering for a lab that piques your interest. If you UG school offers you the opportunity to complete an independent thesis project, I recommend that you serious consider this. 'Research' is often an amorphous concept to folks who haven't yet engaged in the process. It can be very frustrating, and those who make it long term as research scientists really have a drive and passion for the process of science itself. It can be a very rewarding career, and my goal here isn't to turn people away from considering it. I do, however, recommend that you get yourself involved in research projects (several different ones, if possible) early, to determine if this is the right path for you.

As for whether or not the UG school has a veterinary college associated with it- I don't think that this makes any difference at all in your admission to vet school. If you're truly interested in combined programs, adcoms will expect you to have all the requirements for vet school admission, in addition to hard core research experience in your chosen field. A PhD is no joke- it's a huge time commitment, and adcoms will want to be sure that you're truly committed to a research career.

Just as an aside. I attended Rutgers (Cook College, now SEBS) for undergrad from 1997-2001. I had a fabulous experience there, and would do it again in a heartbeat. Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions about the school, or the Animal Sciences program in particular. Good luck!

 

[Trematode]

you guys bring up a really good point. I went to a small school that had nothing to do with vet school, and the fact that you were a self-declared pre-vet easily got you a job at a local clinic as an assistant right away. No need to volunteer or shadow or start as a kennel tech/receptionist and work your way up. Being a pre-vet even put me way in front of the line when it came to getting a job walking the college president's dog . And being in close proximity to Boston meant research opportunities galore with very well funded cutting edge research.

I went to a small university too that only had two pre-vets (me and and this stuck up girl who liked to brag about her volunteer experience ) the entire 4 years I was there. This university had a small sciences program. All of my science professors knew my name and would stop to talk to me in the hall. This opened me up to all kind of research opportunities. I had met a prof at a conference (never had a class with him) and managed to land a job as a research assistant when I heard he was hiring. He had gotten to know me personally, heard great things about me and thought research would help me get into vet school. The downside of attending a small university is that the research opportunities may not be relevant to vet med and the the university may not have the facilities to take on that kind of research. For instance, I worked with molluscs and parasities during my undergrad. None of the profs did work with mammals. We had one who researched nestling behavior related to environmental factors and another who looked at behaviour in electric fish.

So, if you are thinking about attending a smaller university, those are some things to think about: how invested profs are to helping students and what type of research is going on at that institution.

Good luck

 

[RadRadTerp]

Go to the place that will give you the best financial situation and the best research opportunities; those are probably more important than having a vet school around.

X 100. For a lot of big state schools you have a lot of money in the research labs, meaning good equipment and a lot of opportunities, and scholarships are often frequently available. I was very thankful for the scholarships that were made available + the HHMI money that you can get for the research that you do (it was only $7/hr for a max of ~10-15 hours/week 10 years ago, but it helped me justify the late hours running experiments that eventually led to a publication).

 

[NittanyKitty]

I would agree that going to an undergrad school that is unattached to a vet school is not at ALL a disadvantage. In addition, large state schools often have lots of funding, great labs, and a huge number of professors doing extremely varied work. I went to Penn State for undergrad and worked in a lab for two years, got published, and also wrote an undergrad thesis based on the work. To get that job? I just asked one of my profs after class if he knew of a tox researcher who would take an undergrad, and he hired me on the spot - easy! Lots of other students I knew were easily able to find really unique research opportunities based on their interests (insect virology, food chemistry, immunology, etc.). In addition, PSU is also really agriculture-heavy, so you can stock up on lots of great, unique animal science and vet med courses along with hands-on animal work. You can get your research AND vet interests covered at the right undergrad university, and I think your list is a really good start.

As far as paid-for PhD/DVM programs, I am pretty sure NCSU also provides this as long as you are accepted into the program as an incoming student.

 

[jtom]

I think whether you go to a school with a vet program also depends on what field of vetmed you want to pursue in terms of opportunities for experiences. For instance, I am interested in large animal vetmed. I live about 100 miles from gainesville and near there is an extremely unique and just an awesome veterinary experience that no pre-vets go to because of the type of work involved. When I contacted them originally they told me they had never had someone ask them about volunteering and never had any pre-vets before.

However, I have never attempted to contact small animal clinics in gainesville due to the amount of pre-vets. So I think that saying a school with a vet program will have lots of pre-vets and not many opportunities is dependent on what field of vetmed you are interested in.

 

[Minnerbelle]

As far as paid-for PhD/DVM programs, I am pretty sure NCSU also provides this as long as you are accepted into the program as an incoming student.

Oh you're absolutely right! I thought NCSU was one of the schools that provide PhD stipends but leaves you to fend for yourself for the DVM costs, but the website says they'll pay for in-state tuition + fees+ insurance as long as you're in good academic standing.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Based on my knowledge of those schools, any of them will have research opportunities available if you're dedicated enough to look for them. I'd go to whichever school will allow you to graduate with the least debt, as your debt levels on graduation from vet school will be the biggest factor in how much job flexibility you have.

Or even better... if research is the main career goal, perhaps look into not going to vet school at all. Unless you have a specific goal that requires a DVM (or makes it extremely advantageous to have one), you can go and get a PhD without accumulating any debt. Tuition covered, AND stipend received for living costs. That definitely beats paying tuition + cost of living for 4 years of vet school. Only exception to that would be if you can get one of very few spots every year in a funded combined program. But unless you get extraordinary research experiences during undergrad, I don't think it's a realistic expectation to snag one of these spots straight out of UG. So all of your research experience doesn't necessarily have to come from UG experience either. I personally had 0 during UG, and did full-time research for 2 years after graduation.

I agree with above posters to test it out first. Don't commit yourself to a DVM/PhD career track yet and tunnel vision only on those opportunities just yet. You can get research experience to some degree no matter where you go, and unless you have very specific things you want to go into, there's no reason to location restrict. Chances are, you'll be scavenging for opportunities anyway wherever you go, rather than having the luxury of picking the lab, project, and job description you want. If you are planning to get all of your research experience during UG though, make sure you keep your eyes wiiiide open. Don't just base your career decision based on whether you enjoy what you are doing as an UG research student, or even what the grad students are doing. Make sure you really try to look from the perspective of a PI, because the job descriptions are very different. I personally think doing full-time work where you're really considered a part of the research team with important responsibilities in the lab (whether it be as a thesis-based master's student or a technician) is important if you really are considering a career in research for that reason. If you work it right, you can get funding for a masters so in either case, you won't be making that much money, but you won't be putting yourself in any extra debt... so *I* think it would be worth it to really investigate whether $120k+ in vet school debt is the best course of action. Plus, that'll give you the research experience to boost your chances of getting a funded combined degree if you still think that's the way to go.

Just know that there are so many different ways to end up with both a DVM and PhD. Some are more costly than others, and some paths are less time efficient. But regardless the combined time and money investment is likely to be huge, so you want to be absolutely sure what your career goals are and the best course of action to get there.

 

[Minnerbelle]

The downside of attending a small university is that the research opportunities may not be relevant to vet med and the the university may not have the facilities to take on that kind of research. [...]

So, if you are thinking about attending a smaller university, those are some things to think about: how invested profs are to helping students and what type of research is going on at that institution.

I think it also depends on your location too. If you're in an area with a ton of research institutions around outside of your college, it might not be as big a problem. Like, if you're right near Boston or Philly, or in the research triangle, there are a ton of places to go even if you're particularly not interested in the research going on at your school. In that case, I don't think it matters at all where you go for UG as long as you're happy with the school in other ways.

There's definitely pros/cons for attending smaller vs. big universities, and there are great reasons to attend either even when looking at just research opportunities, but I wouldn't discount small or private colleges entirely on the basis of cost though. It's absolutely a myth that a private school will always cost more than a state school, esp if you are someone who considers going out-of-state to a state school or you're considering going to somewhere like the U of Cali system where even IS tuition is pretty high. Many private schools offer need-blind admissions and have large endowments that allow for a ton of scholarships and grants. This is especially so with the schools that have a reputation for being a school for "rich kids." Yes it's true that there are a ton of rich kids in the student population whose parents pay the entire tuition. That doesn't mean there isn't assistance for the low-and middle-income kids. The most obvious example would be Harvard, where the actual debt load of their graduates is very low. And it's not because poorer kids decide not to go due to cost. They have a non-merit based need-blind policy so 60% of their students are on financial aid with an average award of ~$115k. If your household income is less than $65K, you pay squat. And perhaps not all at this level, but Harvard is not the only school to have financial aid programs like this.

 

[that redhead]

I applied to four UG schools: UMD, Colorado State, Iowa State and Auburn. I got in to all of them, and scholarship money for the last three. All but UMD are vet schools, too. I ended up choosing UMD because it was my IS (read: cheaper) but still with a great program. I had pretty awesome experiences at UMD even without the vet school, so I think it was worth it. If you have questions about UMD, feel free to PM me

 

[FutResearchVet]

As someone who is finishing up a PhD in basic (non-clinical) research, I highly recommend that you obtain some research experience before committing to the combined degree and committing to a career in research. The process of research is slow, time consuming, and requires a lot of patience. While some people find this process continually excited, it is not for everyone. It requires learning how to write grants, protocols, and papers, and most successful researchers do very little actual hands-on research (that is left for the lab techs, undergrads, grads, and postdocs).

I would really ask yourself why you want the combined degree... if you truly want to go into research, then focusing on a PhD alone might be better. If you are more interested in becoming a clinical veterinarian then the DVM may be enough, as the PhD is not required.

In my case, my career goal is to become a laboratory animal veterinarian. The experiences I gained from working with lab animals during my PhD has been extremely helpful in understanding lab animal medicine, especially from the researchers perspective and this knowledge will help me to be a better lab animal veterinarian by understanding why and how animals are used in research. Therefore, there are certain cases when a combined degree is very important.

As far as the university, it doesn't really matter. I was able to partake in an amazing undergrad research opportunity in reproductive research, which ending up leading to my current PhD studies, because there were very few pre-vets on campus or interested in reproductive research.

Sorry to keep babbling on....

 

[Lab Vet]

Hey FutResearchVet:

Your goals sound very similar to my own. It appears as though we arrived at the decision through similar avenues.

I began a PhD in Comparative Physiology with the goal of becoming an R-1 faculty member. After deciding that the world of grant writing and publication wasn't for me, I left with an MS, and have no regrets. I loved the whole-animal work that I completed throughout undergrad (I worked on exercise in horses) and grad school (I studied muscle physiology in reptiles), and now want to attend veterinary school to become a lab animal vet. I've worked with a whole bunch of species under the auspices of research (horses, small ruminants, traditional rodents/rabbits, reptiles, and fish). I'd be curious to hear your story. Fire me a PM and let me know your plans. Best of success with finishing up your PhD!