withdrawing from the match

[drstrangelove]

When is the last possible moment to withdraw from the Match, and not have it count against you in future Matches?

Do not submit ROL?

Same way for early Match?

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[Pox in a box]

When is the last possible moment to withdraw from the Match, and not have it count against you in future Matches?

Do not submit ROL?

Same way for early Match?

Um, never.

 

[drstrangelove]

Um, never.

You cannot withdraw without penalty?

 

[NotAProgDirector]

You can "withdraw" from the match either by officially notifying the NRMP that you wish to withdraw, or by failing to certify a rank list. The former will alert programs that try to rank you that you have withdrawn. Both of these need to be done prior to the ROL deadline which this year was Feb 21st.

If you have already certified your list, you cannot withdraw from the match after Feb 21st and are bound by the results.

I don't know the timeline for the SF Match, but I'm sure you can find it online.

 

[drstrangelove]

If you withdraw in this way, does it penalize you for future matches?

 

[NotAProgDirector]

No. If you withdraw legally from the match, you are free to match again in future years.

 

[drstrangelove]

No. If you withdraw legally from the match, you are free to match again in future years.

If you submit a rank list, and end up not matching, do future applications know you previously did not match? If you do not submit a rank list and withdraw, do they know you previously entered the match and withdrew?
Does this change if you had previously applied to one specialty but are now applying for a new specialty?

 

[NotAProgDirector]

If you submit a rank list, and end up not matching, do future applications know you previously did not match? If you do not submit a rank list and withdraw, do they know you previously entered the match and withdrew?
Does this change if you had previously applied to one specialty but are now applying for a new specialty?

No, No, and No.

As long as you don't become a match violator (by matching into a program and then refusing to train there), previous match attempts are not available. Programs will not know if you tried to match and failed, dropped out, didn;t try at all, or tried in a different specialty.

 

[drstrangelove]

No, No, and No.

As long as you don't become a match violator (by matching into a program and then refusing to train there), previous match attempts are not available. Programs will not know if you tried to match and failed, dropped out, didn;t try at all, or tried in a different specialty.

And there is nowhere either on the ERAS or NRMP application where they ask you, optional or required field, if you have previously applied for the match, or their specialty, or otherwise?

I guess the only exception then, is if you applied to the same program previously and they remember your application?

But otherwise, there is no penalty for trying as many times as you want in as many specialties as you want?

I've sometimes heard that programs will prefer deferred (new) applicants vs. reapplicants--is this just in regard to the fact that they know the person from their prior application to the same program, not some other more general indicator?

 

[Winged Scapula]

And there is nowhere either on the ERAS or NRMP application where they ask you, optional or required field, if you have previously applied for the match, or their specialty, or otherwise?

Not that is available to programs.

I guess the only exception then, is if you applied to the same program previously and they remember your application?

Yes.

But otherwise, there is no penalty for trying as many times as you want in as many specialties as you want?

True, as long as you have not violated the match in some way.

I've sometimes heard that programs will prefer deferred (new) applicants vs. reapplicants--is this just in regard to the fact that they know the person from their prior application to the same program, not some other more general indicator?

Yes, unless you or your references have revealed it to someone in word, deed or print.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

I've sometimes heard that programs will prefer deferred (new) applicants vs. reapplicants--is this just in regard to the fact that they know the person from their prior application to the same program, not some other more general indicator?

If you don't match, the next application cycle you are one year further from your grad from med school. This might hurt you to some extent -- many programs have a year of grad cutoff, and might prefer fresh grads.

 

[drstrangelove]

Not that is available to programs.

One of the deans at my Dean's Office said that it is very disadvantageous to apply as a re-applicant. When I asked, "Is there some way that programs know that you applied previously and didn't match?" he stated that "They definitely can find out. There may not be a red flag but there is an electronic record of that somewhere. If they want to know, they can find out." I then tried to clarify, "even at programs you haven't applied to before?" He replied, "when you submit a rank list, the outcomes for the rank list and match will be recorded somewhere."

So again, is this misinformation? Misinterpretation?

 

[NotAProgDirector]

One of the deans at my Dean's Office said that it is very disadvantageous to apply as a re-applicant. When I asked, "Is there some way that programs know that you applied previously and didn't match?" he stated that "They definitely can find out. There may not be a red flag but there is an electronic record of that somewhere. If they want to know, they can find out." I then tried to clarify, "even at programs you haven't applied to before?" He replied, "when you submit a rank list, the outcomes for the rank list and match will be recorded somewhere."

So again, is this misinformation? Misinterpretation?

I get the match results of everyone I ranked. So, if I ranked you but filled above you on the match list, then yes I would know that you didn't match. This wouldn't completely surprise me, since you were low on my list I would expect you might be low on other lists also.

If you have never applied to my program, then there is no list of unmatched applicants that gets published. An NRMP search of your record will simply be empty -- no matches, can't tell if you went unmatched, withdrew, or never even applied in the match before.

So, basically, there is no secret central list of unmatched applicants or anything like that, and most people will not be able to tell that you didn't match.

However, it will be clear that you did something other than a residency in the year after graduation. You will likely be asked about that -- "So tell me why you decided to do a year of research after graduating medical school?". At this point you have to decide to tell the truth --- "I applied and didn't match" or something else "I wasn't sure what field I wanted to go into, and I needed more time and experience to determine my best career plan". The second is not exactly truthful (but perhaps not really lying either), can be considered a "fraudulant" application (a bit of a stretch) and get you fired.

Re-applicants are of course at a disadvantage -- you are now competing with the next year's class plus those in your class that didn't match. If you don't match one year, you need to do something that makes you more competitive the next (or change fields to a less competitive field). You become 1 more year away from your med school grad and clinical experience.

 

[drstrangelove]

I get the match results of everyone I ranked. So, if I ranked you but filled above you on the match list, then yes I would know that you didn't match. This wouldn't completely surprise me, since you were low on my list I would expect you might be low on other lists also.

If you have never applied to my program, then there is no list of unmatched applicants that gets published. An NRMP search of your record will simply be empty -- no matches, can't tell if you went unmatched, withdrew, or never even applied in the match before.

So, basically, there is no secret central list of unmatched applicants or anything like that, and most people will not be able to tell that you didn't match.

However, it will be clear that you did something other than a residency in the year after graduation. You will likely be asked about that -- "So tell me why you decided to do a year of research after graduating medical school?". At this point you have to decide to tell the truth --- "I applied and didn't match" or something else "I wasn't sure what field I wanted to go into, and I needed more time and experience to determine my best career plan". The second is not exactly truthful (but perhaps not really lying either), can be considered a "fraudulant" application (a bit of a stretch) and get you fired.

Re-applicants are of course at a disadvantage -- you are now competing with the next year's class plus those in your class that didn't match. If you don't match one year, you need to do something that makes you more competitive the next (or change fields to a less competitive field). You become 1 more year away from your med school grad and clinical experience.

Thanks KCox and especially aProgDirector for all of your helpful responses to what may seem a trivial question so far. But I assure you the match is like a black box to most of us applicants so your replies are extremely valuable.

"I get the match results of everyone I ranked. So, if I ranked you but filled above you on the match list, then yes I would know that you didn't match. This wouldn't completely surprise me, since you were low on my list I would expect you might be low on other lists also."

Are you saying the match results you get include results of people who don't match? Or are people who don't match omitted from the match results report and you are inferring that I didn't match based on your ranking of me and where you filled?
Isn't it possible for you to rank me low, fill above me, and another program X to rank me high and take me? Although I guess you are saying in this case (I match at X) you would get the report that I matched at program X.

What if you ranked me, but I never turned in a ROL? How much would you know? Would you know I didn't turn in a ROL or would you just assume I didn't match?

The corollary: it is better to formally withdraw from the match, or informally withdraw by not submitting a ROL?

"If you have never applied to my program, then there is no list of unmatched applicants that gets published. An NRMP search of your record will simply be empty -- no matches, can't tell if you went unmatched, withdrew, or never even applied in the match before."

What is this NRMP search tool? Under what scenarios does a NRMP search of my record return unempty, i.e. with information and what information precisely?

"So, basically, there is no secret central list of unmatched applicants or anything like that, and most people will not be able to tell that you didn't match."

What do you mean by "most people"?


The whole waiting 1 year + reapplicant disadvantage I understand completely. But I just wanted to make sure new programs and specialties you've never applied to can't discern that you're a re-applicant. But can #2 really be fraudulent and get you fired? That seems a bit harsh.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Are you saying the match results you get include results of people who don't match? Or are people who don't match omitted from the match results report and you are inferring that I didn't match based on your ranking of me and where you filled?

I get back my match list, with where everyone matched. So yes, if you don't match, I'll see "157. Lastname, Firstname -- Unmatched" on my list.

Isn't it possible for you to rank me low, fill above me, and another program X to rank me high and take me? Although I guess you are saying in this case (I match at X) you would get the report that I matched at program X.

Yes, in this case I would see "157. Lastname, First Name -- Internal Medicine, XXX Hospital"

What if you ranked me, but I never turned in a ROL? How much would you know? Would you know I didn't turn in a ROL or would you just assume I didn't match?

I couldn't tell the difference. My list would simply say you did not match. If you don't match and are ranked above my last match, then it's clear that you didn't rank my program (but I still can't tell if that's because you didn't rank me or didn't submit an ROL at all).

The corollary: it is better to formally withdraw from the match, or informally withdraw by not submitting a ROL?

I don't think it matters much, but I would simply withdraw from the match if you don't plan to match. Withdrawing from the match may prevent you from accessing the scramble list.

What is this NRMP search tool? Under what scenarios does a NRMP search of my record return unempty, i.e. with information and what information precisely?

The NRMP search tool allows me to search people currently enrolled in the match, and simply finds any old matches. It does NOT report if you failed to match, withdrew, or anything else. In all of these cases, the search simply returns that there were no prior matches. Also, you can only search people currently enrolled in the match.

What do you mean by "most people"?

I am getting the distinct sense that you are a conspiricy theorist!

The only people who will know that you didn't match are those that ranked you and those you have told.

The whole waiting 1 year + reapplicant disadvantage I understand completely. But I just wanted to make sure new programs and specialties you've never applied to can't discern that you're a re-applicant. But can #2 really be fraudulent and get you fired? That seems a bit harsh.

No, as I sugegsted I think I'm over-reaching there. New programs and specialties will not be able to tell you didn't match. And honestly, I'm not sure it matters anyway. If you apply to rads/derm/ENT/PRS/(insert your favorite highly competitive field here) and don't match, and then apply next year in IM, I'm really not going to care that much about your prior failed match. If you apply to IM/FP/Peds/Psych and don't match, then either you over-reached or you have a major problem with your application -- either way your prior failed match is really of no major concern.

Summary: I think you are making a bigger deal of not matching than is warranted. The major issue is this: if you apply and don't match, then you need to do something to make your application more competitive or apply differently the next year (less competitive field, less competitive programs) or you will possibly face the same fate again.

 

[aclayton]

Is it possible to scramble into a different specialty if you go unmatched in he field you're currently applying to?

 

[aclayton]

sorry for the previous post, found the answer.