Working with an IMG

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Bull's eye

The Gunslinger
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I had the opportunity to work with an IMG from Ross the other day. He was in his internship for IM. He was very good and very smart. After working with him, I don't see why people make such a big deal out of IMG's. So is the "stigma" of IMG only related to where you can match after residency on average to US Grads? If so, then that is garbage. Was this doc an acception to the rule? Anyway I had never worked with an IMG before and I was surprised.

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Here's my take (through the eyes of an older American).

The stigma as I've seen it over the past 20 years or so is mainly due to the history of those Caribbean schools (well, one could go back to the Mexican schools, but their rep for better or for worse was actually better (or non-existent) before the Carib schools really sprouted) -- formed in the 70's-80's to help chiefly Americans who couldn't get into a US school. The schools used to have extremely low entrance scores and grades. St. George's in Grenada became the best known following Reagan's "invasion" of the island (under the false premise to "rescue" the Americans there). Ironically, this publicity ended up helping the school's rep, at least in name-recognition, at a time when US med school applications were increasing (throughout the 80's up until the mid 1990's). More money was pumped into the infrastructure and better profs went down there on sabbaticals, curriculum was reworked...basically the school put a lot of work into bettering itself and its image, something which surprised me. Now the school has entry scores *comparable* to some American schools, despite the more recent decrease in total American med school applicants, and USMLE pass rates and scores that are excellent.

The other Caribbean schools pretty much all also had rocky starts, poorly funded with little infrastructure/resources, but over time some bettered themselves (e.g., Ross) to also have good rep + stats. Some others are still in their "infancy" so to speak. Mexican schools also suffered from poor rep around this time partly by association and by what was perceived as poor student quality and resources, but I'll defer better explanation to someone who is more familiar with them.

Sackler in Israel never really had the stigma, possibly because it's always had high entrance requirements, has always had affiliations with/support of American schools (thus many don't even see it as an int'l school), and was originally tailored for Jews (still is somewhat) who wanted to live in Israel rather than to students not capable of getting in anywhere else.

Since the mid-90's, Australia, Ireland and UK, sprouted many 4yr (grad) programs, many from their traditional 6yr systems, and various other isolated grad schools formed (plus more started in the Caribbean), partly to soak up the extra US applicants at the time ($), partly in recognition of the benefits that older, 2nd-career students (college grads) give to medicine in the English system, and in some cases (e.g., Flinders in Aus. if I recall correctly) to help reduce domestic applicants by request of the govt. while saving the schools from bankruptcy. Because many of these were offshoots of established 6yr programs, they escaped much of the stigma factor (plus they benefit from not being seen as "Caribbean resorts/playgrounds", another original indictment against the Carib schools, since most Americans know the islands only as a tourist destination).

So... the stigma got real roots with 1) initial spurt of "last chance" schools that took students that no one else wanted; 2) the perception that anything in the Caribbean couldn't be taken seriously.

The stigma has persisted due to 1) ignorance of the improved status of the better int'l schools (there are still and always will be many crappy ones, making it difficut for most people, let alone doctors, to differentiate); 2) elitism (student A got into US, so those in country X "must" have been less qualified); 3) the myopic perception by many that the "best" medicine in the world is high-tech and where there is the most research, and thus American.

Some of #2 is reinforced because while the gap has been shrinking, the average American IMG still goes overseas because he/she is not a particularly strong candidate for US schools. Part of the cause of this, in turn, I think is that Americans are more risk averse (the circular problem: risk in going abroad -> less qualified apply -> hindered rep) and more isolationist/national-centric than most the rest of the world, preventing many strong candidates from daring to venture abroad.

I believe that onlookers typically form their opinions by lumping schools into geographical region, for example the Caribbean has gotten better rep over the years due to (at least) St. George's and Ross, but because of those that know just enough to be dangerous, the better schools still suffer from the bottom schools in the region dragging their reps down. Yet even college-educated professionals rarely know the name of the school in Grenada and if they have any knowledge of Carib. med it's a collective one or limited to, e.g., the '83 invasion. Mexico on the other hand suffers partly because...it's effectively 3rd World "ass-backwards"/"fascist" Mexico; and many think of the UK as excellent for training "hands on" or "self-sufficient" doctors because of the British history of training practitioners for field work, with less reliance on tech (maybe as a remnant of the last great Empire?). In other words, old habits die hard (...hardly die).

Having said all that, as many doctors on this board will attest, once you're a doctor few will care where you went to school. This is.. in part because no one will know unless you tell them, in part because many of your associates will judge you professionally solely based on your demonstrated competency, and in part b.c. those associates who are well-informed will know something good about (or know a good grad or two from) your school.

I'm sure some of my opinions, maybe even a fact or two, here will be disputed, so take this as just one person's perceptions/research over the years.

-Pitman
 
Originally posted by pitman

more isolationist/national-centric than most the rest of the world, preventing many strong candidates from daring to venture abroad.

this is absolute BS.

The United States takes more foreign-educated doctors than all other nations, combined.

Close to 40% of all medical residents in the United States went to a foreign med school, and about 30% of the doctors in practice are foreign-educated.

Show me ONE other country that has numbers even close to that level.
 
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Originally posted by MacGyver
this is absolute BS.

The United States takes more foreign-educated doctors than all other nations, combined.

Close to 40% of all medical residents in the United States went to a foreign med school, and about 30% of the doctors in practice are foreign-educated.


What's "absolute BS", my statement that you quoted?

1) what does this have to do with whether Americans (particularly med school applicants) are isolationist/-centric (basically, in the context of living abroad/worldliness)? Isolationist doesn't mean xenophobic. Before answering that, consider the anecdotes of: European "continental" behavior; American geography scores compared to the rest of the industrial nations 😉. If you thought I meant the nation is "isolationist" in an unqualified and general sense, it would behoove you merely to mention the last (current?) war!

If your argument is rather that most of those IMGs practicing in the US originated in the US, thus disproving the notion that Americans aren't isolationist, then an analysis of percentages (US has more med students than any other nation) and entry scores (lower for American IMGs than for US grads) belies your conclusion in the absense of any examined co-variates.

Or is the 'BS' you're claiming the more general premise of these posts... that instead, b.c. the US (not individuals, mind you) needs to take foreign IMGs, there must not be any stigma(?!)

2) "all other nations combined" is probably wrong, considering that most nations have no med schools, yet have doctors.

Show me ONE other country that has numbers even close to that level.

Close to what level...the level of IMGs practicing in it? Why do you think this has anything to do with the topic being discussed?

-pitman
 
Outside of the above quibbles, I think pitman pretty much wrote a good entry.

The Caribbean schools have gotten a bad rap from their early days, and while the older more established schools are definately improving and showing comparable academic success to most U.S. medschools of it students there is always the old stigma and new ones from the newly founded schools.

But really it just boils down to ignorance and every so often arrogance. If you talk with doctors that work with people from places like SGU and Ross, for the most part a lot of them think they are great guys and qualified doctors. If you talk with people who don't know anything about those schools and say they're in the Caribbeans you get the "oh.. caribbeans." look from them.
 
Pitman -

Good post. The only exception I take is that St. George's started out strong (first class to take the NBME, a guy named Jeff (I forget his last name, but can get it) got the high score out of all takers everywhere...792/800 questions right). This was so strong that, this guy getting a high score obviously meant...that he cheated. So the ECFMG exam was born, until 1992.

The buildings were crap, but the instructor core was there, and they brought their friends.
 
Apollyon -- I didn't mean to suggest that post-school scores were particularly low there ever (don't know that data), but average entry scores were much lower and since have approached those of US schools, and ave. board scores are now excellent, in fact better than some US schools, maybe in part due to persistence in the face of adversity?

-pitman
 
pitman,

your claim is that american medical system is very isolationist in the sense that it just doesnt like foreign docs.

Thats absolute BS. If what you say is true, then how do you explain the fact that nearly 35% of all medical residents are foreign-educated?

By the way, we still take more foreign-born doctors than all other countries, only about half of the foreign-educated doctors are American.

You think its hard to practice in the US? Just try to get a medical license in Germany, France, or England. The US process is a LOT easier compared to most countries.
 
I can't believe I'm agreeing with MacGyver, but hands down, the US is the easiest western country for a foreign-trained doctor to enter post-graduate training. I've got European and Canadian passports that still wouldn't help me get into a training program in any of those countries.
But, I think you two are arguing different points. Pitman, beyond location of education, you have to understand stigmas arise from other areas as well: Does the resident have a thick accent? Does he/she socialise with others in ways Americans are used to? I've noticed in myself sometimes I get frustrated with someone I'm having difficulty communicating with. Then I think of my dad, or another relative that wasn't born in the west like I was, and it could easily be one of them I'm getting short with. And I know firsthand some of the difficulties they've encountered over the years in their workplaces.
 
Originally posted by MacGyver
pitman,

your claim is that american medical system is very isolationist in the sense that it just doesnt like foreign docs.

No. My claim ('belief' would be more representative of how I stated it) is that Americans are somewhat isolationist/US-centric, thus ceteris paribus relatively few students consider going abroad. I didn't say anything at all about any "system" not liking IMGs, but have been focusing on individual perceptions, where here I was addressing the side issue of reasons Americans might not want to go abroad for school: stigma, avoidance of stigma, and an isolationist/-centric attitude. Another factor (thrown into my original post I think just after you replied to it) I believe is American aversion to risk, as in aversion to the risk of stigma.

I do admit that I used the term 'isolationist' rather obscurely, but consider how isolationism concerns the acts of a govt./state, while we are referring to the social behavior of individuals (and med students in particular). I would extend my statement to say that Americans (socially, and not the system itself) are also more xenophobic than, say, Europeans. But these are just some of my beliefs, as corollaries to the obvious stigma-avoidance reason, that could explain why relatively few Americans take the (social, economic, practical) risk of going abroad for school, which was the point of the statement.

I do apologize for any confusion caused by imprecise use of the term.

By the way, we still take more foreign-born doctors than all other countries, only about half of the foreign-educated doctors are American.

This statement I would agree with if by "all other countries" you meant "any single other country". I could be wrong, but without quantification or reference I am skeptical of the inclusive claim because it is counter-intuitive. The claim is difficult to make: for example, WHO has stats on # of physicians in each country per 100k, and state that this is all the statistical data they have on doctors around the world. The IMG population in the US is 22.7% (~200,000), which includes American IMGs, so let's take your 50% factor at face value for foreign IMGs => 100,000 US doctors are foreign born. China has 160 docs/100k, India has 48/100k, so their doc population is about 160*1.4bill./100k + 48*1bill./100k = 2,700,000 doctors in those two countries alone (compared to only about 900,000 in the US). Also consider that there are about 1800 medical schools in the world that are recognized by their host country (compared to 144 in the US), each potentially educating a few doctors who will end up practicing outside of their home country. Do you still think that ALL other countries COMBINED won't come up with more than a mere 100k foreign born doctors?

You think its hard to practice in the US? Just try to get a medical license in Germany, France, or England. The US process is a LOT easier compared to most countries.

No, I don't actually. But this ground was not covered in my response to Bull's eye's original question about stigma.
 
Originally posted by The Pill Counter
But, I think you two are arguing different points. Pitman, beyond location of education, you have to understand stigmas arise from other areas as well: Does the resident have a thick accent? Does he/she socialise with others in ways Americans are used to?

From his Ross grad example, I took Bull's eye's original question
to be `why the stigma on American IMGs?` (particularly, on Carib grads), not of being a foreigner practicing in the US. I think MacGyver's post, resulting from confusion over one of my points, likewise confused what the issue being addressed is (at least the one I was addressing in my original post, where I focused exclusively on int'l schools receptive to American students).

BTW I think we all generally agree, with some minor caveats, but as you state, we are discussing two, maybe three with your addition, different points.

-pitman
 
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Thick accents rule!:clap:
 
Would like to throw my 2 cents in...forgive me if I digress somewhat from the original argument.

As a new Zealand grad I had the opportunity to work with FMGs from many different countries and training backgrounds in my own country. Some were brilliant, others barely adequate, and this included american students and grads on electives. And yes, I was at times less than happy to get "stuck" with a foreign IMG doing an observership.

Since then, the tables have turned on me....I married a US citizen and am going through the process of trying to get into a decent anesthesiology program in the US. To state that I have met with one stumble block after another is an understatement. To illustrate a point, I will point out my boards scores, which were in the 99th centiles...I was initially under the impression that the USMLE would represent an "equal" playing ground for all students, regardless of their backgrounds or training. This has not been my experience, unfortunately. I have had encounters with extremely unhelpful program co-ordinators one they were informed that I was an IMG, regardless of my scores. In my own experience, there is a DEFINITE stigma attached to being an IMG....an experience I have NEVER had to deal with before.

I take my hat off to any medical student, American allopathic, DO or foreign for making it through the rigorous training so far. However, I have utmost admiration for most of the IMGs who make it through the ECFMG process. I personally know a guy who sold his mother's piano to be able to afford the Kaplan question bank....to me, THAT represents determination and perseverance.

IMG's are not here to steal jobs from americans. Many of us have married and intend to have a future in the land of equal opportunies. I can not imagine doing anything other than medicine, and no matter how hard it will be, or however poorly rated my training program turns out to be, I will be grateful and loyal. So, next time you come across an IMG, perhaps at an interview, at least give him or her the courtesy and respect of a nod or a smile - you never know the road that has been traveled to bring this person next to you.
 
Very well said, Kiwi MD.

I just can't understand why the whole IMG stigma started and to that effect I have a few questions:

which person/group of individuals was responsible for the IMG labelling? Were they MDs or politicians? Did it stem from a belief that IMGs would take away jobs from Americans?

I presume some of it might be to do with the start of the Caribbean schools and that MDs who got their degrees on the mainland wanted to put themselves into a higher league, to reward their having got into an American school.

I understand viewing Caribbean grads as inferior but I can't understand why grads from Ireland, Australia etc (I'm told if you're from the UK it doesn't matter as much) are viewed also as 2nd class. I suppose this is because it's presumed you go abroad not because you want to soak up the different culture, but because you could not get into an American school. This whole IMG thing is so frustrating because of the arrogance behind it. Who said anyway that US medical education is the best in the world? Why should they dictate to and slap down foreigners in the way they do??
 
Originally posted by miscalculated
I understand viewing Caribbean grads as inferior but I can't understand why grads from Ireland, Australia etc (I'm told if you're from the UK it doesn't matter as much) are viewed also as 2nd class.

That is the exact reason why - since you yourself "acknowledge" Caribbean grads as inferior (not to the level of Commonwealth and Irish grads), that is why it continues.

If you look at individuals, it becomes moot.
 
Originally posted by miscalculated

I understand viewing Caribbean grads as inferior but I can't understand why grads from Ireland, Australia etc (I'm told if you're from the UK it doesn't matter as much) are viewed also as 2nd class. I suppose this is because it's presumed you go abroad not because you want to soak up the different culture, but because you could not get into an American school. This whole IMG thing is so frustrating because of the arrogance behind it. Who said anyway that US medical education is the best in the world? Why should they dictate to and slap down foreigners in the way they do??

Every country does that to protect their own grads and their own professionals, most countries even more so than the US. Just look at Canada, France, Germany, even England. Just go to anywhere other than Canada for med school and try to get a residency in Canada and see how much MORE of a hassle you will go through compared to in the US. I think IMG's should relish the fact that however unfair it is, American remains a country of opportunities, the possibility is always there if one works hard, excel, and play within the current existing framework of rules.

Ultimately it is not really about qualifications. Really, what's fairness? What's dedication? There are Indian medical grads with 99 USMLEs by the boatloads aspiring to come to the US to practice, and they will try and try and try, year after year, many would do the residency for free, or even worse, pay $ to get a residency spot. It's about the integrity of the system and protecting the American physicians who are trained in the country. Physicians who are trained at an accredited US med school has completed a set standard of quality training as outlined by LCME and AAMC and is deemed verifiably acceptable to practice medicine in the US. This include many non-tangible factors like communication skills in an American medical setting, American social savvy, American bedside manners, and simply, how an American hospital works. This is not something that standardized test like USMLE can evaluate. IMGs do not have this luxury of verificability, however excellent their medical education really is or how competent they ultimately are. One IMG may be brilliant, but the next guy might commit malpractice in the first month of his residency. That's why PD's sometimes balk at taking IMGs, is because of this uncertainty and variability, and NOT because of EVERY IMG is inferiorly trained. Also, one is best served to realize that the US does not have a open door policy where everyone is ENTITLED to practice if they are qualified. Doesn't work that way anywhere in the world. It is best for one to recognize that the door is not completely closed, and through dedication, the possibility is there.
 
Originally posted by Kiwi MD
Would like to throw my 2 cents in...forgive me if I digress somewhat from the original argument.

As a new Zealand grad I had the opportunity to work with FMGs from many different countries and training backgrounds in my own country. Some were brilliant, others barely adequate, and this included american students and grads on electives. And yes, I was at times less than happy to get "stuck" with a foreign IMG doing an observership.

Since then, the tables have turned on me....I married a US citizen and am going through the process of trying to get into a decent anesthesiology program in the US. To state that I have met with one stumble block after another is an understatement. To illustrate a point, I will point out my boards scores, which were in the 99th centiles...I was initially under the impression that the USMLE would represent an "equal" playing ground for all students, regardless of their backgrounds or training. This has not been my experience, unfortunately. I have had encounters with extremely unhelpful program co-ordinators one they were informed that I was an IMG, regardless of my scores. In my own experience, there is a DEFINITE stigma attached to being an IMG....an experience I have NEVER had to deal with before.

I take my hat off to any medical student, American allopathic, DO or foreign for making it through the rigorous training so far. However, I have utmost admiration for most of the IMGs who make it through the ECFMG process. I personally know a guy who sold his mother's piano to be able to afford the Kaplan question bank....to me, THAT represents determination and perseverance.

IMG's are not here to steal jobs from americans. Many of us have married and intend to have a future in the land of equal opportunies. I can not imagine doing anything other than medicine, and no matter how hard it will be, or however poorly rated my training program turns out to be, I will be grateful and loyal. So, next time you come across an IMG, perhaps at an interview, at least give him or her the courtesy and respect of a nod or a smile - you never know the road that has been traveled to bring this person next to you.

KIWI, this is good stuff! It looks like we have a helluva lot in common. I married an American, too. I understand the whole "tables have turned" thing. I hate it when people are making fun of IMGs here, well, because I'll be one when we move to the US.

It's unfortunate how you've had a hard time with program coordinators. I'm shaking in my boxers just thinking about going through all that. If you don't mind telling, what have they been giving you grief over?

I take it you're in the 2004 match?
 
Originally posted by Apollyon
That is the exact reason why - since you yourself "acknowledge" Caribbean grads as inferior (not to the level of Commonwealth and Irish grads), that is why it continues.

If you look at individuals, it becomes moot.

Careful, Apollyon...miscalculated has merely said she *understands* (people) "viewing Caribbean grads as inferior" -- she may or may not subscribe to that attitude.

-pitman
 
It seemed clear to me..."I understand viewing Caribbean grads as inferior but I can't understand why grads from Ireland, Australia etc (I'm told if you're from the UK it doesn't matter as much) are viewed also as 2nd class."

This seems to connote a logic in this person's mind (as if it's expected that Caribbean grads don't measure up). This intimates that Irish and Aus grads are superior to Caribbean grads, and that perceptions of Caribbean grads are true.

You may be right, but I think that that is a lesser evaluation; the more likely (from my perception) is as I've stated. Perhaps miscalculated will clarify.
 
Except if you're correct, revisionism is now inevitable 😉 Damn I hate the untestable! At the least you may cause a small, positive paradigm shift.
 
Interesting debate of misy's thinking, guys. I shall have to choose my words carefully so as to not envoke further discussion 🙂

But pitman is correct.

I can see *why* Caribbean grads are viewed as inferior because the generally accepted view of their circumstances is that they are in the Caribbean because they could not get into an American school. I am sure everyone is agreed on this. (Though there probably are a handful of students each year who *choose* to go to the Caribbean (perhaps because of relatives, growing up there, love of the lifestyle, who knows).

To reclafiry: I understand viewing them as inferior because it's generally believed they are there because they could not get into a school in the States.

And also, think of the countries: America v Caribbean. "What sorta education can they get on some dumb island??" (That last sentence is not my viewpoint though!)

However, I do not consider *each individual* inferior because:
1. how fair is the American med school applications process?
2. it's just a numbers game: too many quality applicants for too few places (incidentally, I would be interested in exact figures, i.e. applicants to places ratio. In the UK pre-2002 it was ~9000 applicants for ~4000 places) but now there are 4 more schools so I'm not sure what the latest figures are).
3. some students do choose to study in the Caribbean.

Re Irish/Aus grads. I don't view them as superior but people responsible for dishing out residencies may do because they know medical schools in Ireland and Australia were not set up to cater for American premeds who could not get into a school in the States.

The crux of my initial argument was that I think it's appalling that America thinks its grads are more deserving than IMGs! Is this because a) they want to protect American jobs from foreigners? or b) because they believe their grads to be superior? If the answer is b then that sucks even more than a!

The bottom line of the whole American medschool system seems to be: if you can't get into a school in the States then you're substandard/there's no other medical education in the world like in America. And that attitude is so arrogant!
 
Originally posted by miscalculated

The bottom line of the whole American medschool system seems to be: if you can't get into a school in the States then you're substandard/there's no other medical education in the world like in America. And that attitude is so arrogant!

Hmmm...America and its citizens being arrogant? What a suprise!

I don't know that we'll ever get a consensus on why the bias exists as I suspect it comprises many factors. But there are people out there (although fewer among US medical faculty and physician population than amongst pre-meds) who DO believe that almost any education outside of the US is suspect.
 
To be blunt, the real problem with many usmg's regarding img's is this: "This is an elite societal group (US MD'S) said group decides who should be allowed entrance or not. HOW DARE YOU go around that, study abroad, and practice next to me after we turned you down !! You can disagree if you want but after chatting on some of these boards I have had as much said and often not not so nicely. Also, I have read many books from "experts" on how to get into medical school. Common threads were don't be fat, ugly, over 27 or have an accent and if you do downplay it or fix or forget about your chances. Many discriminating factors in US admissions have nothing to do with your abilities to practice medicine. 😛
 
Wow...on the first post, Cute Nurse is right on target. The deal is that USMG is status quo; any and all other routes are NOT the "lingua franca", so, they're not preferred. US medicine, US medical doctor. But that's the rub - that the US medical graduate is the end-all, be-all, despite assertions that you learn your medicine in residency.

Considering half (or more) of applicants don't get in each year, it is foolhardy to put all your faith in med school admissions committees. Do you think for ONE MINUTE that every single person who got in was the right one, and every single one rejected was the wrong one for the school?

And, anyways, it's a moot point: if the government agreed, there would be NO FMG's, no USIMG's, and then, no DO's. Period. But that's not how it is.

Good first effort, cute nurse.
 
Originally posted by Kimberli Cox
Hmmm...America and its citizens being arrogant? What a suprise!

I don't know that we'll ever get a consensus on why the bias exists as I suspect it comprises many factors. But there are people out there (although fewer among US medical faculty and physician population than amongst pre-meds) who DO believe that almost any education outside of the US is suspect.

Gosh how I despise arrogance in medicine. +pissed+
 
I currently work in a small teaching hospital, which regularly has international students doing oversease electives. I work as an RN in the Operating Room, so I work closely with both the students and the surgeons teaching them. I am dating a General Surgeon who is the primary teacher for all of these international students , along with Canadian residents. He understands my situation for applying overseas and supports my decision.
BUT, he constantly tells me that the international medical students he has (from England and Australia) are not even close to being at the same level as the Canadian students he has. We have discussed the 6 year (directly out of high school) system in Eng/Aus, as opposed to the 4 year post Science degree North American offers - which obviously produces students from different countries at different levels at different times.
I believe he does look at international students differently (he himself coming from a top ranked medical school In Canada), but I don't think he discriminates in anyway. He is always willing and enthusiastic about working with students, regardless of where they are from (as he should be).
But I can't disregard his feelings or thoughts about this issue, as he is the one working hands on, on a daily basis with students from everywhere in the world. He compares where they are at, and where they should be at.
Obviously this concerns me, but I also am aware that his opinion is only one of thousands working with foreign medical students/residents.
Lexy
 
OK, i am going for the "Ignorant Post of the Day Award", but what is an IMG, and what is the difference between an IMG and a non-IMG???

I have seen this several times, and have always wondered what is the difference.!!!!!

Please tell me now!!! Other wise i may just .... EXPLODE!
 
With all this controversy about IMG's I'd love to hear what you have to say about FMG's!1 :laugh:
 
Originally posted by Johnny69
OK, i am going for the "Ignorant Post of the Day Award", but what is an IMG, and what is the difference between an IMG and a non-IMG???

I have seen this several times, and have always wondered what is the difference.!!!!!

Please tell me now!!! Other wise i may just .... EXPLODE!

IMG = International Medical Graduate
 
Originally posted by awdc
IMG = International Medical Graduate

So what is the perceived problem with IMGs?? Are we supposed to be inferior to docs trained in the US??
 
Yes, you are supposed to lick the boots of the person who got into the US school and clean up after him wherever he or she goes. Didn't you get the memo?:laugh:
 
I found these forums and although I have been far removed form what many of you must unfortunately go through, I will donate my 2 centavos.

I am a US born IMG graduate of a Dominican Republic university more than 20 years ago. I have been practising in the US for many years >decade. I learned Spanish and studied primarily in Spanish using some English texts.

You will face overt and covert discrimination by many program directors who are of the belief their SH-t doesn't stink. You may be labelled well in advance of knowing your capabilities or lack thereof.

Over the years there have been a multitude of lawsuits against organized medicine at every level. The Fifth Pathway program resulted from a pre trial out of court settlement . Plaintiffs were US Mexican grads and their families vs "you can guess who"

I recall interviews in which attendings (USMG's) would drill me with questions that I, or any medical grad would not be able to answer at that point in their training. This was to further advance his/their ego(s)

I even interviewed in anesthesia after having completed internal medicine. I answered all the questions correctly and precisely. The doctor that interviewed me told me I was sharp and concise. I had quite a bit of respect as at that point he saw me as another attending. I was told I was the strongest candidate. After I didn't hear from them, I called the program director who told me they were holding out for a US grad.

It is no secret that the quality of training programs has/is been rated by the % of USMG's they fill with. So a program made up of FRCP or FRSC residents will be a poorly rated program whereas one filled with USMG's one year out of school will be a high quality program.

I have taught and supervised grads from the US and abroad. I have seen strong and weak from both locals. I have worked as a resident with USMG's that were little more than *****s, and also with IMG's that had issues.

Simply graduating from school X vs school Y does not guaranty quality. Some do great on exams but fail on the floor.

It should be known that schools such as Grenada and Ross maintain strong legal representation in the US. Without this and ongoing surveillance many states and facilities would have shut their doors to their graduates.


The latest example of attempts to stop iMG's is the CSA. 950 buckas and a flight and hotel for many around the world. Some of their families make little more than that in 1 year. So, even is the person is brilliant, if they are poor, forget it!

A researcher gave components of CSA to USMG's in residency and the USMG's did significantly worse than IMG's. Besides embarrasment, the CSA money machine has ammunition to insist all USMG's also take the CSA. USMG proponents are strongly against this as it is overly cumbersome for these "guaranteed to enter residency" grads alread in the same country in which CSA is given.

It backfired! I pasted it below.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
From JAMA, Sept. 2001

RESEARCH LETTERS

Physical Examination Skills of US and International Medical Graduates


To the Editor: Physical diagnostic skills are considered essential for the practice of medicine,1 but several studies have noted declining clinical skills among US medical school graduates (USMGs).2-4 We conducted a study to measure recent medical school graduates' ability to perform the abdominal examination.




Methods



We defined criterion standards for 13 specific abdominal examination skills (Table 1) in accordance with a textbook that is widely used in US medical schools to teach physical diagnosis.5 These skills relate to performing a general examination of the abdomen as well as examination for suspected acute appendicitis.

We studied 148 first-year residents in internal medicine and pediatrics at our institutions, of whom 113 were USMGs and 35 were international medical graduates (IMGs). Subjects were asked to examine the abdomen of a young adult patient, and each examination was directly observed by 1 of the authors. Inter-rater reliability was established previously ( = 0.93). The performance of the USMGs was compared with the IMGs using the 2 or Fisher exact test as appropriate. International medical graduates with prior residency training were excluded.




Results



Overall, USMGs performed significantly worse than IMGs for each of the 13 skills (P = .001 for each) (Table 1). There were no significant differences between specialties or among residency training programs.




Comment



The clinical skills of USMGs in this sample appears to be suboptimal. We note that participants in this study may not be representative of either the USMG or IMG population. However, USMGs in this study collectively attended 63 different US medical schools and as a group they received a grade of honors in 542 (80%) of the 678 required clinical clerkships during medical school. Thus, their clinical grades place them in the top quartile of USMGs in that year.

As of July 1, 1998, all IMGs were required to pass a clinical skills assessment examination prior to entering US residency programs. Graduates of US medical schools currently are exempt from this national assessment examination. Previous data reveal that approximately 97% of candidates achieve a passing score on this examination and that 80% of candidates undertake special preparation for the test.6 All IMGs in this study successfully completed this examination. Increased attention to clinical skills acquisition may be necessary in medical schools, and residency program faculty may need to conduct an assessment of basic clinical skills at the start of internship and provide appropriate remediation where indicated. To the extent that testing drives learning, it may be desirable to institute a national clinical skills examination for USMGs. The National Board of Medical Examiners is currently pilot testing such an examination for possible future use.6



Philip O. Ozuah, MD, MSEd
Jane Curtis, MD
Albert Einstein College of Medicine
Children's Hospital at Montefiore
Bronx, NY

Eugene Dinkevich, MD
Department of Pediatrics
Downstate Children's Medical Center
Brooklyn, NY



1. Kern DC, Parrino TA, Korst DR. The lasting value of clinical skills. JAMA. 1985;254:70-76. MEDLINE

2. Wiener S, Nathanson M. Physical examination: frequently observed errors. JAMA. 1976;236:852-855. MEDLINE

3. Mangione S, Nieman LZ. Cardiac auscultatory skills of internal medicine and family practice trainees. JAMA. 1997;278:717-722. MEDLINE

4. Mangione S, Peitzman S. Revisiting physical diagnosis during the medical residency: it is time for a logbookand more. Acad Med. 1999;74:467-469. MEDLINE

5. Bickley L, Hoekelman R. Bates' Guide to Physical Examination and History Taking. 7th ed. Philadelphia, Pa: Lippincott-Raven; 1998.

6. Whelan G. High-stakes medical performance testing: the clinical skills assessment program. JAMA. 2000;283:1748. FULL TEXT | PDF | MEDLINE



Letters Information

Guidelines for Letters


Letters Section Editors: Stephen J. Lurie, MD, PhD, Senior Editor; Jody W. Zylke, MD, Contributing Editor
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I have lived what many of you are now going through and despite all I have been through, I am ecstatic in having had the oportunity to live and study abroad and to have learned another language. Don't be bitter, just know who the good guys are.


Please forgive my spelling errors since I am an IMG.
 
1. Lexy - hopefully you won't take offense at this, but too many Canadians are inordinately proud of themselves. "Canadians are enlightened" is the most common phrase I hear from these people and frankly it gets toxic. In my opinion, its the same ethnocentrism (or rather, nationo-centrism) that the US is often rightly accused of also. Canada's health and health education systems are good. They aren't the best (lots and LOTTTS of data if you want to look it up). At some point, many Canadians need to recognize that fact.

Incidentally, one of my best friends is Canadian, and I realize that not every Canadian is like this. I just want to point out that the anecdotal opinion of your boyfriend sounds alot like the same arrogance that is alive and well all around the US. The fact is that there's good IMG's and bad ones; good USMG's and bad ones. We should take the good, leave the bad, and try to avoid stereotyping a subgroup - the US has enough of that already.

2. Pitman makes a hugely important point that McGyver initially misunderstood. He claimed that few Americans are inclined to leave the US, especially for medical education. I think he's right, and that Americans rarely get out of their country for anything but narrow-minded, consumer-oriented tourism. As a nation largely comprised of immigrants, this is very sad. The US is regularly accused by the rest of the world as being so enamored with itself, that is really doesn't understand how the rest of the world functions.

I'm biased because I'm a FMG, but I believe that US students who can make the USMLE cut, and get themselves residencies, should be regarded as highly valuable. These are people who have seen the world and truly interacted with it. They've had to work with people who are REALLY REALLY different from the majority of Americans. Some overseas schools aren't so good, but the good ones should be seen as extremely valuable to the system of medical education in a country where proportionally few people really experience the world outside their borders.
 
IMG = Non US citizen trained at non LCME accredited med school.
FMG= US citzen trained at non LCME accredited med school.
USMG = US citizen trained at LCME accredited med school.

I am an FMG. I went to Ross after being denied admission to the one med school in my home state. I am in clinicals now and received a 215 on Step One.

It has been stated the bias is due to the fact (at least in part) due to perceived differences in communication skills, and socializations skills but that argument hold true only for IMGs and not FMGs.
It has also been stated that another reason for bias is perceived difference in USMG and FMG quality because the former got into US school and the latter did not. This brings up the argument of how much college physics and organic chem etc. does one need to learn and practice medicine. Based on College transcripts and MCATs one is decided to be inferior to practice medicine before he ever sits one day in a medical school classroom. Is this right? I graduated with honors from my undergrad institution and took the MCAT once with little study and received 27 (low sciences but 98th percentile verbal reasoning) I also had 4 years of healthcare experience including 2 years as a tech in a level one trauma center. These stats were not enough to get into medical school in the states but is it fair that they still will hold me back due to an illogical bias. What makes my MCAT and college scores more important then my USMLE scores. Especially now that the US grads and myself and all other FMGs will be taking the indentical tests to be licensed. No more TOEFEL and CSA due to Step 2 CS.
It has also been stated that the bias is due to the history of caribbean schools. However the fact is that though 25 years ago the stats of my school and others like SGU were much lower then present. The same can be said of US schools. Acceptance scores have rocketed up in US schools in the 80s an 90s due to the large number of med school applicants. Does this mean the schools are currently bad schools because 20 years ago THEIR stats were much lower? I think not. The problem is the AMA and LCME continue to grossly limit US medical education despite the fact that even with as someone pointed out there being 35 percent of us doctors educations coming from abroad and STILL not enough doctors. In a perfect world FMGs and USMGs would be equal but this is not a perfect world. As such I may be forced to do IM where my heart lies with EM. Though believe me I will give it all I have before I let that happen.
........of course that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.


🙂
 
the last three posts on this thread provided alot of insightful commentary on the whole IMG vs. FMG. vs. USMG topic. With regards to the canadian medical education system I cannot comment as I am unfamiliar with it. However let me just say that most of smf's observations about americans ( yes, i realise this is a generalisation and I apologize) were accurate. I am an american citizen who was born and raised in Ireland and moved here at age eighteen. I have completed an undergrad. and the first year of a masters program here in the states and have decided to pursue a medical education at ross. I say decided as I declined a place in the chicago school of medicine class for september 2004. i understand that many might view this as wreckless, but believe me it was a decision made after very careful deliberation. In my 5 and 1/2 years in the states i can honestly say I have learned as much if not more from the people and the culture than I have from the academic institutions I have attended. I was accepted to UIC on a writing scholarship and harvest the majority of my material from my experience. In which regard let me provide a couple of reasons why any person considering a career in medicine ( or anything really for that matter) should spend a portion of their life overseas, whether involved in academia or otherwise.
1. Upon inviting a 19-year old college mate of mine to visit ireland in 1999, he was taken aback by the modern infrastructure, warmth of the people, cultural aspects etc., etc. Upon returning to the US he was asked to write a paper. He did. In it he described how amazed he was to find that ( I kid you not) Ireland 'even' had electricity now. He marvelled at the similarities in utilities set-up and so on and so forth. By the way this student received a private secondary education and scored in the 30's on his ACT! What is all the more ironic is that by 1999 Ireland was the world leader in computer software exports, housed the 3rd best engineering school in europe ( university of limerick) and had more cell phones per capita than any other nation in europe! Needless to say I felt embarrased for this guy.
2. Out of a group of fifty three people in my pathophysiology class I was one of three people who had ever left the US! Please bear in mind that at 24 I was one of the youngest people in the class. Many were there as OT or PT students embracing a second career at 30/40 years of age. This was about the time of the situation erupting with Iraq and for the life of them , many could not fathom why France and Germany would not get on board with Americans. Ironically when I asked them if they would desire to travel to these places, they said no, citing that they had seen or heard as much as they needed to to make an informed decision. Ah yes, television as a means to travelling the world and making informed decisions...am I sensing a problem here?
3. Around about the same time CNN conducted an interview with a man whose daughter was serving in Iraq and when asked about the resistance from France and Germany he replied " It's about time people got used to the fact that America are the police of the world , and if you don't like that then , well that is just too bad!" This is CNN reporting and Americans gasp at the notion that they are perceived as Amerocentric, arrogant and obnoxious. Moreover, this sentiment is reflected in many of the posts in this forum and in real life America..... U.S medical graduates superior!....U.S med schools superior!....go army! It is enough to make one sick to their stomach were it not so laughable and downright ignorant....yes ignorant!
How in good conscience can anyone make an informed decision if they have not considered the same topic from many many different viewpoints? Culture, tradition, and objective-decision making still await out there. America is America ad infinitum. There are good people, and there are bad people, but the ignorance and arrogance relative to other nations is appauling and downright insulting. There is only so much you can learn from a book. Get the plane ticket, leave!!. You'll thank me you did.
 
To be quite honest , i really just want to get out of the states for a while, leave the city behind. This might sound like an unsound reason to chose one medical school over another but all things must be considered in my opinion. I did exhaustive research on ross before i commited myself to their program and was satisfied with their residency placement program and my chances of succeding in their curriculum. I also like the fact that their program is accelerated. I scored in the 99th percentile in my college entrance exam in Ireland, have a 3.42 gpa on a double major ( chemistry and philosophy) and a 30 MCAT. I enjoy studying physiology etc etc and believe i can achieve just as high a score on my USMLE's from Ross as I can from any US med school. I personally know of two friends of mine who scored in the 99th percentile on the USMLE's last year who trained in Ireland, who drank and partied, and let loose every weekend during the semester but who also worked at their program and enjoyed it. All too often people assume that to succeed in medicine you must have the best scores here, and go to school x , and not have a life. I chose Ross because I want the experience of living in a third world country, I plan to island-hop on my alloted six weeks off a year. In comparison Chicago med. offered me another four years of chicago. Don't get me wrong, i have enjoyed my time here, but there is so much to see out there and medicine is only one part of who i am , albeit a great part. Life to me is not about being able to claim " oh yes I studied here and blah blah blah". I wish to travel as much as i can and experience as much as I can. If I can study medicine and do this then I ask the question, well why not? Invariably the answer comes back: because the preformed opinions of others, ignorance, egotism , elitism, and insecurities in general dictate that because I did not do all of my education in the U.S then I am not equally qualified. Honestly, if only to contest this notion on principal I would study abroad. It is a propagated myth so ridiculous I do not entertain it for a second. As I am sure you will agree in the study of medicine, material must be learned and commited to memory. whether you go to Harvard, Chicago med. or Ross, no lecturer is going to do that work for you. Moreover no one can teach you bedside manner, or how to really listen to a patient. this is all stuff the individual must take upon themselves. In which regard how well an individual scores on exams and how well they do in life is a reflection of how hard they have worked and how determined they are. That said i think I should be o.k. i am not so naive as to think I will not encounter some resistance as an FMG, but as i have clearly set forth in this and the previous post, that is really a reflection of the downright ignorance of others, and thus is not my problem. I hope this has adequately answered your question.
 
Originally posted by drkp
IMG = Non US citizen trained at non LCME accredited med school.
FMG= US citzen trained at non LCME accredited med school.
USMG = US citizen trained at LCME accredited med school.


🙂

Hmm...I always thought it was...

IMG = US citizen trained abroad ("internationally")
FMG = non citizen trained abroad (ie, "foreign born").
😕
 
I heard it the other way around. Making me an FMG. I don't really care what they refer to me as as long as at the end of it all they call me Dr. 🙂 Acctually I don't really think I like that too much either. I will have my patients use my first name but you know what I mean.😎
 
Cuts

Uhhhhhhhh, the Latin's cool and all, but I'm not sure what it means.

If "ceterus parabus" means "all the time", then I don't think you're right. I personally have a friend who got into 3 US schools (Einstein, I think Cornell and at least one other in that area), but chose to accept the humilitating mantle of FMG (or IMG or whatthefmg) so she could study overseas.

If "ceterus parabus" means "most of the time", then you're probably right.

If "ceterus parabus" is actually some famous Roman general from 12ad, you should have at least capitalized the words to help out the ignorant among us (not me, of course...but YOU KNOW WHO - the FMG's, the little people, the academic cretins).
 
Has your friend qualified yet? I suspect that when she walks down the corrider in her white coat with her nametag stating her name followed by the M.D letters denoting her role as an allopathic physician she is greeted by looks of sympathy and disdain for the fact that she chose to study overseas. In fact I am sure she rejects her high-level income and social standing because of the fact that she is an IMG or an FMG or a "forgiveMe".How can she all things considered even look at herself in the morning? You know.... what a fool she was not to take Einstein or Cornell. Do you think the guys in surgery will acknowledge her presence . Gee..i don't know there buddy..she is an IMG..I mean an FMG...I mean..hey!..wheres the label maker? If only I had studied in the U.S she probably will ask herself. Alas...she will now be banished to the land of 'anything-other-than american-trained' where she will be forced to grovel for scraps from the overlords table...seeking impoverished residencies and destitute fellowships. Oh the ignorance..the ignorance....not me of course...but YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE.:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
 
Irisheyes,

Most poetic sarcasm.
Good point!
 
Take a look at some work I've been doing on internet 'correspondence' medical schools. Vast majority of FMG's are hard working folks who have studied hard,made the big changes in life of moving to foreign lands, and doing basically the same study as US medical students.

Then there are the new 'attempts' at short cuts. Take a look at

http://www.internetmedicalschool.homestead.com

I do not believe distance education has a place in medical schools but more importantly I don't think that chiropractors,dentists,podiatrists,nurses,pharmacists can continue working full time and attending medical school. I do not believe that giving 'equivalent' credit for non-medical school education is equivalent to US medical schools.

Az Skeptic
 
Originally posted by irisheyes
Has your friend qualified yet? I suspect that when she walks down the corrider in her white coat with her nametag stating her name followed by the M.D letters denoting her role as an allopathic physician she is greeted by looks of sympathy and disdain for the fact that she chose to study overseas. In fact I am sure she rejects her high-level income and social standing because of the fact that she is an IMG or an FMG or a "forgiveMe".How can she all things considered even look at herself in the morning? You know.... what a fool she was not to take Einstein or Cornell. Do you think the guys in surgery will acknowledge her presence . Gee..i don't know there buddy..she is an IMG..I mean an FMG...I mean..hey!..wheres the label maker? If only I had studied in the U.S she probably will ask herself. Alas...she will now be banished to the land of 'anything-other-than american-trained' where she will be forced to grovel for scraps from the overlords table...seeking impoverished residencies and destitute fellowships. Oh the ignorance..the ignorance....not me of course...but YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE.:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:



Hey irisheyes,

Tried to send you an email but looks like you disabled that function. Good luck in school. I would be honoured if I were to receive an email from you.


Einstein, huh, was he not a foreign graduate also?


"Believe in yourself as much as you doubt"
Paul Hewson, a Dubliner
 
SMF...just curious, as i read previous posts- what University did you attend?
 
Originally posted by hndrx1a
SMF...just curious, as i read previous posts- what University did you attend?

Universidad CIFAS
 
Originally posted by azskeptic
Take a look at some work I've been doing on internet 'correspondence' medical schools. Vast majority of FMG's are hard working folks who have studied hard,made the big changes in life of moving to foreign lands, and doing basically the same study as US medical students.

Then there are the new 'attempts' at short cuts. Take a look at

http://www.internetmedicalschool.homestead.com

I do not believe distance education has a place in medical schools but more importantly I don't think that chiropractors,dentists,podiatrists,nurses,pharmacists can continue working full time and attending medical school. I do not believe that giving 'equivalent' credit for non-medical school education is equivalent to US medical schools.

Az Skeptic

==============================================
From wisdom gained over the last 25 years I would personally not do any virtual learning towards a medical degree if not an LCME school. It will just cause another layer of ammunition licensure agencies can/will use to try to stop you. You can make the argument that LCME students indeed also may gain basic science knowledge via some sort of virtual pipeline and NOT be physically located with the lecture hall. That is OK because as they make the rules and appoint the umpires they are unlikely to rat out themselves.

The internet didn't exist when I was a student. We had to attend lectures and labs. I had to become fluent in Spanish as I did not have the money to fly around to arrange clinicals in the US. We rotated in several public hospitals and some private ones.

Additionally there is a virtual medical school consortium forming with several LCME and international universities aboard. The Allegheny County judge now gaining some medical knowledge virtually may prove a "tough cookie" in court if/when the powers that be try to stop him.

I know for a fact that many dental students sit side by side with medical students in the very same basic science classes and LCME schools have also granted basic science credit to DDS returning to gain an MD. Do you see anything wrong with this?

I recall a California DDS that was a classmate of mine who got advanced standing (Universidad CIFAS) and has been licensed in California for many years.

There is no easy way to study medicine. It is voluminous material regardless where in the world you study. Virtually delivered medical courses may be daunting as the availability of an answer to a question you may have is not too near.

My wife has taken US University classes delivered over the internet and she put a lot of time and effort into them. it sure didn't seem to be a shortcut. She had an online discussion forum and participated and asked any questions she had. The university offered identical content "on campus" courses. This was not too practical for her as we live 2500 miles from the university and that would have been one hell of a commute.

Even Harvard has online classes these days. If you have any money left for food and shelter after paying their tuition the degree might even command some respect.



Focus your energy into learning.

"Believe in yourself as much as you doubt" Bono
 
Originally posted by CuteNurse
To be blunt, the real problem with many usmg's regarding img's is this: "This is an elite societal group (US MD'S) said group decides who should be allowed entrance or not. HOW DARE YOU go around that, study abroad, and practice next to me after we turned you down !! You can disagree if you want but after chatting on some of these boards I have had as much said and often not not so nicely. Also, I have read many books from "experts" on how to get into medical school. Common threads were don't be fat, ugly, over 27 or have an accent and if you do downplay it or fix or forget about your chances. Many discriminating factors in US admissions have nothing to do with your abilities to practice medicine. 😛



"don't be fat, ugly, over 27"

May I add to the above not too long ago in the history of our great nation; Don't be black or female
 
smf: Universidad UCE...you're inspiring, my friend!
 
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