Worried about preclinical grades...advice?

[The new guy]

So I'm a M1 at a top 20 school that claims to be "pass fail", however there are rumors about internal rankings. My stress comes from the fact that they don't release averages so I have literally no idea how I am doing relative to anyone else. My average on all exams is around 93% which I guess is okay...truthfully I could probably study a bit more....like i said, no idea if this is bad or good?? Anyone else in the same boat who can comment?

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[addy]

This is exactly why I stopped coming onto the Allo thread and why I do not hang out with anyone except 4 people in my entire class of 200. Thanks for reminding me, brother!

 

[notbobtrustme]

:troll:

 

[Jabbed]

Request a copy of the MSPE from administration.

Obviously a 93% is okay.

 

[The new guy]

:troll:

I'm not trolling...guess I don't see how this is such a crazy question...I have no idea the class average could be 98 for all I know...I just want to be sure I'm on the same page as everyone else

 

[circulus vitios]

Hahahaha, have fun grovelling for an FM residency in rural Mississippi!

 

[The new guy]

I would really appreciate serious comments...

 

[Beacopp665]

I would really appreciate serious comments...

And we'd really appreciate serious questions...if you're smart enough to get into a top 20 med school and have a 93% average across the board do you really think you're in the bottom quartile of your class or something? Use common sense

 

[The new guy]

And we'd really appreciate serious questions...if you're smart enough to get into a top 20 med school and have a 93% average across the board do you really think you're in the bottom quartile of your class or something? Use common sense

Like I said I have no idea. They don't release averages. I have a weak science background (art major) so I would guess all the science majors are doing much better than I am...

 

[togaedere]

I usually don't reply to this kind of stuff but I'm going to for some reason. I do not go to a top 20 school. My guess tho from talking to a few friends who do is that your 93 is great. The reason why it's a dumb question to a lot of people is because it's quite obviously a good score and you are probably beating many science majors in your class. It may come as a shock to you or you may know it all along but you are a smart person and you don't have to have a good science background to do well in medical school. Whatever you are doing is working. For the definitive answer on this I personally would talk to an administrator at your school about this if you're really worried about it. As you say, the internal ranking thing is just a rumor as far as you know, so your class counselor or academic advisor or your curriculum guide can give you more insight into how things are handled. I would be really surprised if your school was fine with exams where the averages were in the 90s.

Like I said I have no idea. They don't release averages. I have a weak science background (art major) so I would guess all the science majors are doing much better than I am...

 

[niblet]

93% just isn't going to cut it—you're in med school. Typically anything below 100% and we're talking remediation of some kind. You see, as future physicians we're simply not able to afford anything but absolute perfection. Make one single mistake on the wards? Bam. Dead patient. Expect word from your school soon about your poor performance, and likely dismissal.

 

[Merely]

A lot of you are being annoying, if you're not going to answer his question why waste your time to comment something stupid? He is worried about his performance and telling him he's a troll without even knowing whether or not his fears are grounded is asinine. Most likely, OP, you are doing very well and you have no need to worry. However, you can talk to your administrators if it would calm your mind.

 

[Kaustikos]

I failed my anatomy exam with a 98%. Are you in a real Med school?

 

[Priapism4tooLong]

If you are worried about a 93% you're an idiot... And I'd be more worried about being an idiot than my grades. You have to be smart when you are a doctor and make smart decisions.

 

[W19]

So I'm a M1 at a top 20 school that claims to be "pass fail", however there are rumors about internal rankings. My stress comes from the fact that they don't release averages so I have literally no idea how I am doing relative to anyone else. My average on all exams is around 93% which I guess is okay...truthfully I could probably study a bit more....like i said, no idea if this is bad or good?? Anyone else in the same boat who can comment?

You can not be serious!

 

[Frazier]

Tired satire is so tired.

 

[DermViser]

You can not be serious!

No, he's not. He's trolling (obviously).

 

[wjs010]

93% is hard to avg in any US med school. I seriously don't know how you think it's "okay".

 

[W19]

No, he's not. He's trolling (obviously).

His/her post does not seem to be a 'trollish' one to me.

 

[DermViser]

His/her post does not seem to be a 'trollish' one to me.

Then it's a post completely lacking in perspective and judgement.

 

[Frazier]

Then it's a post completely lacking in perspective and judgement.

In other words, DV is giving him the benefit of the doubt by concluding troll... better than alternative imo.

 

[DermViser]

In other words, DV is giving him the benefit of the doubt by concluding troll... better than alternative imo.

Pretty much.

 

[IsabelDaza]

So I'm a M1 at a top 20 school that claims to be "pass fail", however there are rumors about internal rankings. My stress comes from the fact that they don't release averages so I have literally no idea how I am doing relative to anyone else. My average on all exams is around 93% which I guess is okay...truthfully I could probably study a bit more....like i said, no idea if this is bad or good?? Anyone else in the same boat who can comment?

Dude. Get a grip.

 

[The new guy]

Update: school average is around 88-89...seems high right? My 93 isn't so hot considering that. I want to go into a competitive specialty and tbt I am worried about not getting aoa. Flame if you want but I'm sure there are people here who share similar concerns.

 

[touchpause13]

This thread makes me want to cry

 

[Anicetus]

Sorry to hijack this thread but if I went to Princeton instead of Harvard for undergrad are my chances of becoming president shot???

 

[DermViser]

Update: school average is around 88-89...seems high right? My 93 isn't so hot considering that. I want to go into a competitive specialty and tbt I am worried about not getting aoa. Flame if you want but I'm sure there are people here who share similar concerns.

Doesn't matter if grades of H/HP/P/F are criterion referenced and not norm referenced.

 

[The new guy]

Doesn't matter if grades of H/HP/P/F are criterion referenced and not norm referenced.

There are no grades, it's pass fail but they keep our percentage score on file for internal ranking purposes.

I sort of wish it was graded because that way I would have a clear idea of how I am doing. As it stands, I'm kind of in the dark.

 

[Beacopp665]

Update: school average is around 88-89...seems high right? My 93 isn't so hot considering that. I want to go into a competitive specialty and tbt I am worried about not getting aoa. Flame if you want but I'm sure there are people here who share similar concerns.

For most schools chapters you are eligible for AOA as long as you are in the top 25% of your class. As long as you're not scoring below average and continue to perform well consistently in classes and your third year you have a shot at being in the top quartile. From there many other factors are considered (leadership, research, extracurriculars) and 16% of your class is picked. I wouldn't stress about it honestly because as long as you do the best you can there's nothing to regret. Especially since AOA tends to be extremely political depending on the institution. If it's something you'd die without getting get in touch with some seniors who are AOA and see if there is anything in particular that would keep you out (not being involved with student councils etc.)

 

[The new guy]

For most schools chapters you are eligible for AOA as long as you are in the top 25% of your class. As long as you're not scoring below average and continue to perform well consistently in classes and your third year you have a shot at being in the top quartile. From there many other factors are considered (leadership, research, extracurriculars) and 16% of your class is picked. I wouldn't stress about it honestly because as long as you do the best you can there's nothing to regret. Especially since AOA tends to be extremely political depending on the institution. If it's something you'd die without getting get in touch with some seniors who are AOA and see if there is anything in particular that would keep you out (not being involved with student councils etc.)

Thanks for this response. Right now I am struggling because I feel like I'm not working hard enough, I've been going out every weekend etc. I think I will regret it if I dont buckle down and really push myself instead of just coasting along as I have been.

 

[DermViser]

There are no grades, it's pass fail but they keep our percentage score on file for internal ranking purposes.

I sort of wish it was graded because that way I would have a clear idea of how I am doing. As it stands, I'm kind of in the dark.

You don't have to be Pass/Fail to know what your grade is on an exam. Face it, the reason you want to know the class average and you want things to be graded is bc you're a GUNNER. There, I said it.

 

[The new guy]

You don't have to be Pass/Fail to know what your grade is on an exam. Face it, the reason you want to know the class average and you want things to be graded is bc you're a GUNNER. There, I said it.

Hehe I won't deny that. I want to do well, make aoa and get the residency of my choice. And yeah I want things to be graded so that I know exactly where I stand and what I need to do to make "honors". I tend to do better when I have a clear goal in mind. Not ashamed of it.

 

[DermViser]

Hehe I won't deny that. I want to do well, make aoa and get the residency of my choice. And yeah I want things to be graded so that I know exactly where I stand and what I need to do to make "honors". I tend to do better when I have a clear goal in mind. Not ashamed of it.

Right. So then admit it from the outset that you're a hypercompetitive gunner and that's the reason you want to know what the class average is. Percentage wise on your exam - you have an "A". Your school specifically put in true Pass/Fail in the preclinical years for a reason and you want it to be a tiered grading system bc you want to one up your classmates, not bc you need a "clear goal in mind".

 

[The new guy]

Right. So then admit it from the outset that you're a hypercompetitive gunner and that's the reason you want to know what the class average is. Percentage wise on your exam - you have an "A". Your school specifically put in true Pass/Fail in the preclinical years for a reason and you want it to be a tiered grading system bc you want to one up your classmates, not bc you need a "clear goal in mind".

Well I want aoa so that means yeah I want to be better than 84% of the class. Not sure what's so terrible about that. And I would like to know where I stand so I can adjust my efforts appropriately. Again, not sure what the big deal is.

I've noticed most gunner-haters at my school tend to be the people who are doing poorly overall and are bitter about it.

Edit: btw I think my schools method sucks. If they want to cut down on competition they should have made it true pass fail where they basically erase any record of your percentage score after the first 2 years

 

[DermViser]

Well I want aoa so that means yeah I want to be better than 84% of the class. Not sure what's so terrible about that. And I would like to know where I stand so I can adjust my efforts appropriately. Again, not sure what the big deal is.

I've noticed most gunner-haters at my school tend to be the people who are doing poorly overall and are bitter about it.

Keep believing whatever defense mechanism you need to make yourself feel better. It is possible to get AOA without being a hypercompetitive gunner. Your score in relation to the class average is IRRELEVANT if you go to a true Pass/Fail school, which you say you do.

 

[The new guy]

Keep believing whatever defense mechanism you need to make yourself feel better. It is possible to get AOA without being a hypercompetitive gunner. Your score in relation to the class average is IRRELEVANT if you go to a true Pass/Fail school, which you say you do.

No, I don't go to a true pass fail school and I never said I did. It's nominally pass fail but they keep your score on record and use it to make aoa determinations. Like I said above, if they truly wanted to get rid of competition they should switch to true pass fail. I would be in favor of that...but as it stands, unfortunately that's not reality and our percentage score does count. I don't want to be the guy who is boxed out of aoa because of 0.1 percentage points or whatever.

 

[rigid]

you could be top 1% of your class, if people get a whiff that you're a gunner you will be making one of those "how did i not match with these stats" posts

 

[The new guy]

you could be top 1% of your class, if people get a whiff that you're a gunner you will be making one of those "how did i not match with these stats" posts

I don't understand what you mean. I am a "gunner" in that I really want to do well at med school. I want to reach the goals I have set for myself. That is my definition of gunner, why is that such a bad thing? If by gunner you mean someone who is cutthroat and back stabs others to get ahead, then no, that's not my personality.

 

[Ismet]

We recently had a panel discussion with several program directors, and they mentioned that AOA is kind of redundant, so it's not something you should kill yourself trying to obtain or freak out if you don't get it. They know from your transcript and MSPE that you are an excellent student and at the top of your class, they can tell from ERAS your activities and leadership, they don't need those 3 letters to tell them that. They also mentioned that senior AOA is much more valuable than junior AOA, because they care more that you were a rockstar in 3rd year, not the first 2 years.

Basically OP, if you're just coasting along now and getting a 93%, great. You're bright. If you think you can put in more effort without over exerting yourself, go for it. I certainly wish I could "coast" at a 93%. But you are just starting out, and there is a very real possibility that it won't always be that easy. I just don't want you to have this idea in your head that your life is dictated by numbers and 3 little letters.

 

[DermViser]

We recently had a panel discussion with several program directors, and they mentioned that AOA is kind of redundant, so it's not something you should kill yourself trying to obtain or freak out if you don't get it. They know from your transcript and MSPE that you are an excellent student and at the top of your class, they can tell from ERAS your activities and leadership, they don't need those 3 letters to tell them that. They also mentioned that senior AOA is much more valuable than junior AOA, because they care more that you were a rockstar in 3rd year, not the first 2 years.

Basically OP, if you're just coasting along now and getting a 93%, great. You're bright. If you think you can put in more effort without over exerting yourself, go for it. I certainly wish I could "coast" at a 93%. But you are just starting out, and there is a very real possibility that it won't always be that easy. I just don't want you to have this idea in your head that your life is dictated by numbers and 3 little letters.

That's interesting that junior AOA for you guys is after the first 2 years. Ours was calculated after 3rd year regardless, but the people who were Junior AOA just found out earlier like in Spring of M3 (and were officers) vs. everyone else who found out fall of M4 (and were voted on). Some schools are very clear about how AOA is calculated on their AOA school specific webpage.

 

[IsabelDaza]

Update: school average is around 88-89...seems high right? My 93 isn't so hot considering that. I want to go into a competitive specialty and tbt I am worried about not getting aoa. Flame if you want but I'm sure there are people here who share similar concerns.

No, you're right. We're all being unreasonable. What you're on right now is an express train to mediocrity-ville and no, it's not a return ticket. I commend you for even having the balls to post such an embarrassing score, it certainly gave me my weekly dose of schadenfreude.

Look I'll be perfectly honest here, you probably won't manage to match into a competitive specialty in a first world country with above average grades from a top medical school (didn't you know that only people who finish in the top 5 of their Harvard med school class get into competitive specialties?) but I think if you lower your sights a little you might just manage to get a job where you can still be called 'doctor'.

There's the organ trafficking trade which is currently experiencing a bit of an expansion - I think as long as you score above 230 in step 1 that they will disregard your scores (they do generally prefer people with a 99% average but you can always try). Otherwise they have a doctor shortage in Afghanistan, Albania and (I hate to say it but beggars can't be choosers) - Alaska.

Srsly though get a grip.

 

[Ismet]

That's interesting that junior AOA for you guys is after the first 2 years. Ours was calculated after 3rd year regardless, but the people who were Junior AOA just found out earlier like in Spring of M3 (and were officers) vs. everyone else who found out fall of M4 (and were voted on). Some schools are very clear about how AOA is calculated on their AOA school specific webpage.

I actually don't know how AOA is determined at my school, just going off of what one of the PD's said.

 

[DermViser]

I actually don't know how AOA is determined at my school, just going off of what one of the PD's said.

That's interesting that your school's PDs said that AOA is redundant, across the board. It could also be bc your medical school is already quite selective to begin with so it's not as much a dealbreaker when it comes to certain specialties vs. if you went to Drexel or Temple or TCMC.

 

[Ismet]

That's interesting that your school's PDs said that AOA is redundant, across the board. It could also be bc your medical school is already quite selective to begin with so it's not as much a dealbreaker when it comes to certain specialties vs. if you went to Drexel or Temple or TCMC.

It was a small panel, I wouldn't say across the board.

I think their goal was to calm the fears of "omg I'm not AOA I'll never be a neurosurgeon." Obviously AOA has meaning, but it's not the be all end all of being a stellar student.

 

[DermViser]

It was a small panel, I wouldn't say across the board.

I think their goal was to calm the fears of "omg I'm not AOA I'll never be a neurosurgeon." Obviously AOA has meaning, but it's not the be all end all of being a stellar student.

Yeah, I realize after I typed that that it probably was only specific specialties. AOA is more the cherry top, as it's well known out of the top 25% (which is an accomplishment in itself) only 1/6 of the total class can be inducted -- however way that is decided by that chapter. I agree, most likely it was to allay fears, esp. in a high achieving group such as at your school, as there are many who don't have AOA who are able to match bc they had the other components.

 

[Southplains]

Yeah, I realize after I typed that that it probably was only specific specialties. AOA is more the cherry top, as it's well known out of the top 25% (which is an accomplishment in itself) only 1/6 of the total class can be inducted -- however way that is decided by that chapter. I agree, most likely it was to allay fears, esp. in a high achieving group such as at your school, as there are many who don't have AOA who are able to match bc they had the other components.

Bolded for OP. Realize you're being a neurotic MS1 right now and that even in the most competitive specialties, only upwards of 50% of matches are AOA. You're doing well at a top school, keep on doing well, work as hard as you can for step 1, and perform well on your rotations. Every door will remain open for you.