Worst Case Scenarios for HPSP students

[YayPudding]

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Hi all,

Curious if anyone has anyone information or experience regarding worst case scenarios for students who undertake the HPSP. Specifically in terms of payback or penalties regarding the following:

• What if a student is seriously injured or becomes sick (with a chronic and/or disqualifying condition?)
• What if a student flunks out of school or cannot receive a security clearance thereby making medical corps service impossible?
• Can an HPSP student be dishonorably discharged from the service?
• Suppose a student commits a crime?
• What if their school loses accreditation or goes belly up?

Ok, now scare me!

 

[Gastrapathy]

Worst case scenario: everything happens due course and you're still miserable

 

[YayPudding]

Worst case scenario: everything happens due course and you're still miserable

Your aim is true 😢

 

[WernickeDO]

Hi all,

Curious if anyone has anyone information or experience regarding worst case scenarios for students who undertake the HPSP. Specifically in terms of payback or penalties regarding the following:

• What if a student is seriously injured or becomes sick (with a chronic and/or disqualifying condition?)
• What if a student flunks out of school or cannot receive a security clearance thereby making medical corps service impossible?
• Can an HPSP student be dishonorably discharged from the service?
• Suppose a student commits a crime?
• What if their school loses accreditation or goes belly up?

Ok, now scare me!

So none of this has happened to me but to some friends of mine so this is second hand knowledge. And this is not the Greg Brady type of friend. Actual other people.

A friend was diagnosed with a cardiac condition (mild) early during first year. I'm not sure how they worked out the logistics but they were removed from HPSP.

If you flunk out you will become a line officer as a 2LT. You'll be immersed in the wonderful world of FLIPLs, lateral transfers, and award tracker. Don't fail out.

Yes, for a dead to rights type crime like conviction of a DUI or meth trafficking. A dishonorable discharge is a horrible thing that will follow you in your professional life, so try to avoid this one too. Even if you are not immediately discharged, you will likely be removed from residency and have your clinical privileges revoked.

Suppose they do? Were you planning on it?

Does that even happen? When was the last time a US med school lost accreditation? Usually there is a probation period and the school rights the ship during that time.

 

[YayPudding]

So none of this has happened to me but to some friends of mine so this is second hand knowledge. And this is not the Greg Brady type of friend. Actual other people.

A friend was diagnosed with a cardiac condition (mild) early during first year. I'm not sure how they worked out the logistics but they were removed from HPSP.

If you flunk out you will become a line officer as a 2LT. You'll be immersed in the wonderful world of FLIPLs, lateral transfers, and award tracker. Don't fail out.

Yes, for a dead to rights type crime like conviction of a DUI or meth trafficking. A dishonorable discharge is a horrible thing that will follow you in your professional life, so try to avoid this one too. Even if you are not immediately discharged, you will likely be removed from residency and have your clinical privileges revoked.

Suppose they do? Were you planning on it?

Does that even happen? When was the last time a US med school lost accreditation? Usually there is a probation period and the school rights the ship during that time.

None of these issues have or hopefully will ever apply to me, but I want to be educated all the same. Thanks

 

[John1513]

Worse case scenario you have to pay back everything related to the scholarship. Best case scenario you get dropped from the program but do not have to payback - sometimes the case for catastrophic health issues that develops during/after med school

 

[Homunculus]

can we add to your list of worst case scenarios? do they have to be medstudent related only? lol

--your friendly neighborhood they can change the rules at any time caveman

 

[theonlytycrane]

You don't match the specialty you want, so they GMO you after intern year. Then you go to a dangerous place and get blasted. GG 🙁

 

[USArmyHPSP]

When you sit down with the Recruiter and he hands you the 10 page contract read it. Ask for a copy ahead of time and study it. Or, call the HPSP office 877-MED-ARMY and they will provide you a copy of a blank contract. Everything is covered in those 10 pages.

Everything you have listed has happened (most multiple times) and each is handled on a case-by-case basis. The outcome for others in the past may or may not happen to you depending on your individual circumstance.

Just a s a side note, the last school to lose accreditation, to my knowledge, was one of those in Puerto Rico, and the HPSP office allowed the three that were attending there to find and get accepted to another school with no penalty.

 

[YayPudding]

can we add to your list of worst case scenarios? do they have to be medstudent related only? lol

--your friendly neighborhood they can change the rules at any time caveman

Please, by all means

 

[YayPudding]

You don't match the specialty you want, so they GMO you after intern year. Then you go to a dangerous place and get blasted. GG 🙁

Does Army have nearly mandatory GMO like Navy?

 

[YayPudding]

You don't match the specialty you want, so they GMO you after intern year. Then you go to a dangerous place and get blasted. GG 🙁

Yeah that would be major suck

 

[WernickeDO]

Does Army have nearly mandatory GMO like Navy?

Not really, but if you are a TY then most likely you are headed out for a tour.

 

[YayPudding]

Not really, but if you are a TY then most likely you are headed out for a tour.

Sorry - TY?

 

[WernickeDO]

Sorry - TY?

Transitional year.

 

[jabreal00]

Hi all,

Curious if anyone has anyone information or experience regarding worst case scenarios for students who undertake the HPSP. Specifically in terms of payback or penalties regarding the following:

• What if a student ...... cannot receive a security clearance thereby making medical corps service impossible?

Ok, now scare me!

From my recollection you have to apply for the security clearance first and get it granted before final acceptance for the HPSP scholarship.

 

[Chonal Atresia]

Worst case....applying to and being accepted for the "scholarship."

Best case....loans or other ways to pay for school.

 

[USArmyHPSP]

From my recollection you have to apply for the security clearance first and get it granted before final acceptance for the HPSP scholarship.

Not true. It takes up to two years for a secret clearance...

 

[jabreal00]

Not true. It takes up to two years for a secret clearance...

Two years? I applied for one as an HPSP applicant and honestly forgot about it. It lapsed after 10 years and I had to reapply my last year in the Army. It took 6 months from start to approval.

 

[theonlytycrane]

Transitional year.

Just to clarify, do you mean TY year as the intern year for people that didn't match into their desired specialties?

If so, for those that matched, are they "safer" from GMO, at least until after residency is done?

 

[astrostellar]

Not true. It takes up to two years for a secret clearance...

That seems really incorrect. My clearance was higher than that and took way less time. Also, you can be granted an interim clearance. Also also, your clearance timeline will depend on how hard you are to clear (ie, how difficult it is to verify that you're not a risk, how long it takes to talk to your references, your foreign contacts and all of that.)

 

[WernickeDO]

Just to clarify, do you mean TY year as the intern year for people that didn't match into their desired specialties?

If so, for those that matched, are they "safer" from GMO, at least until after residency is done?

Yes to both. If you match to a specialty then you have a straight through contract which insulates you from a GMO tour, unless you get fired.

 

[Gastrapathy]

There was a period ~2008-10 when Secret clearances took 18-24 mo. I know because my renewal was really slow. Almost kept me from deploying believe it or not.

 

[YayPudding]

What do clearances for HPSP students entail? National agency and credit checks I imagine? Or is it a talk to employers, dig for all medical/legal records, talk to my 1st grade teacher sort of thing?

 

[Red Lobster Actual]

What do clearances for HPSP students entail?

Just...look at the SF86 form and that's what it will entail. Lots of paperwork. I mean in the end it will basically ask you are you bankrupt? Are you defaulting on your debts? Are you a terrorist? Are you a spy? Of course no semi-intelligent terrorist or spy would answer yes to the last two questions.

National agency and credit checks I imagine?

At the very least.

Or is it a talk to employers, dig for all medical/legal records, talk to my 1st grade teacher sort of thing?

This is more of the single scope background investigation needed for TS/SCI level clearance.

 

[xffan624]

Hi all,

Curious if anyone has anyone information or experience regarding worst case scenarios for students who undertake the HPSP. Specifically in terms of payback or penalties regarding the following:

• What if a student is seriously injured or becomes sick (with a chronic and/or disqualifying condition?)
• What if a student flunks out of school or cannot receive a security clearance thereby making medical corps service impossible?
• Can an HPSP student be dishonorably discharged from the service?
• Suppose a student commits a crime?
• What if their school loses accreditation or goes belly up?

Ok, now scare me!

I met two people who had done USUHS for 2 or so years and decided medical school wasn't for them. They were serving as medical service corps officers (70 series IIRC) as payback for the years of medical school. I'm not sure of their exact obligation, but both stayed in long enough to make captain.

 

[YayPudding]

I met two people who had done USUHS for 2 or so years and decided medical school wasn't for them. They were serving as medical service corps officers (70 series IIRC) as payback for the years of medical school. I'm not sure of their exact obligation, but both stayed in long enough to make captain.

Sort of a peculiar fact that students are admitted into the military and receive funding without really knowing anything about being in the military. On the opposite side of the coin, I suppose the military takes the risk that the student will be ready, willing and able to serve when the time comes.

 

[theonlytycrane]

Yes to both. If you match to a specialty then you have a straight through contract which insulates you from a GMO tour, unless you get fired.

Is this a newish thing? And Army specific?

 

[WernickeDO]

Is this a newish thing? And Army specific?

It's new for general surgery. The Navy has a much higher GMO rate, maybe a sailor can chime in on that.

 

[SirGecko]

The navy does not let you apply to both residency and intern year out of medical school. You apply just for an intern spot and during intern year you apply for a residency spot/UMO/flight or talk to the detailer about other GMO positions after the match.

(Of course the navy could change this in the future but that's how it works right now)

 

[vellnueve]

Hi all,

Curious if anyone has anyone information or experience regarding worst case scenarios for students who undertake the HPSP. Specifically in terms of payback or penalties regarding the following:

• What if a student is seriously injured or becomes sick (with a chronic and/or disqualifying condition?)
• What if a student flunks out of school or cannot receive a security clearance thereby making medical corps service impossible?
• Can an HPSP student be dishonorably discharged from the service?
• Suppose a student commits a crime?
• What if their school loses accreditation or goes belly up?

Ok, now scare me!

A student a year behind me was diagnosed with a disqualifying condition in their senior year. They had to pay back the money allotted for their education and did not come onto active duty.

In my first year there were several new grads who, despite warnings, participated in fraternization. They received other than honorable discharges (which removes eligibility for many veterans benefits) and had to pay back their scholarships.

I know another one who came on active, did their PGY1 year, and then went to a ship. Turns out they had bad claustrophobia and had to be taken off the ship. They parked the dude in a shore clinic and he finished out his commitment without any other issues.

A dishonorable discharge is equivalent to a felony and is treated as such even in civilian life. You don't want one.

 

[xffan624]

A student a year behind me was diagnosed with a disqualifying condition in their senior year. They had to pay back the money allotted for their education and did not come onto active duty.

In my first year there were several new grads who, despite warnings, participated in fraternization. They received other than honorable discharges (which removes eligibility for many veterans benefits) and had to pay back their scholarships.

I know another one who came on active, did their PGY1 year, and then went to a ship. Turns out they had bad claustrophobia and had to be taken off the ship. They parked the dude in a shore clinic and he finished out his commitment without any other issues.

A dishonorable discharge is equivalent to a felony and is treated as such even in civilian life. You don't want one.

It's pretty hard to get one from my experience. You have to break some major rules. I knew an LT who was found with multiple videos on a government laptop of inappropriate acts (rhymes with X) with soldiers during a deployment and still got off with a general discharge.

 

[vellnueve]

It's pretty hard to get one from my experience. You have to break some major rules. I knew an LT who was found with multiple videos on a government laptop of inappropriate acts (rhymes with X) with soldiers during a deployment and still got off with a general discharge.

Yes it is. But he asked, so...

 

[haujun]

Worst case?
I know a HPSP student who died during deployment about ten years ago...she was very smart and would not have died if she did not do HPSP

 

[USArmyHPSP]

HPSP students don't deploy

 

[SurgDoc95]

Worst case?
I know a HPSP student who died during deployment about ten years ago...she was very smart and would not have died if she did not do HPSP

That may be the worst case, but how many physicians deploy who aren't on forward surgical teams due compared to the number who deploy? I'm not an expert, but it would seem that most who deploy make it home.

 

[YayPudding]

Going to sound uninformed here, but could someone speak to downsides with regards to post-graduate training? What are the likelihood of a DO student obtaining a residency of their choice? Do options change year to year? Is it pretty similar to civilian (derm, rads, neurosurg, etc. being very competitive?)

 

[colbgw02]

The conventional wisdom is that military GME is decent. All of the residencies are ACGME accredited, so that provides a floor, if you will, of quality. No one is going to mistake their military residency for training at a top civilian university program, but the world is filled with great physicians that didn't train at top civilian university programs. Surgical volume can be an issue, which is why many military surgery residencies are supplemented with rotations at civilian hospitals. Put briefly, quality of GME training should be pretty low on your list of concerns.

DO bias is much less of an issue in the military, which isn't to say it's nonexistent.

Things can and will change year to year. That's not to say that a residency will up and disappear, but the number of applicants a program accepts can fluctuate appreciably. You'll find selections/nonselections for fellowship to be even more whimsical.

Generally, military specialty competitiveness mirrors that of the civilian world. There are some notable exceptions though, the most widely known of which is the highly competitive nature of military emergency medicine. As is often repeated on this forum, and with good reason, the size of the GME system is small, which makes nearly any year-over-year statistical variation highly impactful.