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Worth appealing grade?

Arewestilldoingphrasing?

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    Just got back my grade in a specialty unrelated to what I want to do, got a HP even though I crushed the shelf and got great comments on my evals, but one of the attendings (who I never worked with or spoke to outside of one lecture) gave the classic, good student, worked hard, keep reading 3/5. I emailed the clerkship director and he essentially said everyone gets great comments, the numbers sank me. Is it worth appealing to my student dean? This is like the fourth time this year this has happened and I am so fed up with the way we are graded (I know I'm not a special snowflake who deserves all honors but this rotation particularly stings because I put so much into it). I want to go to a competitive specialty so I'm pretty anxious about my grades at this point (like half honors, half HP).
     
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    Lawpy

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      On my first clerkship the directors told us they had never, in the 10+ years of running that clerkship, had an appeal successfully result in a grade change. Just gotta move on.

      the amount of power the 3-bombers have is tragic
       
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      Dantrolene FC

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        Welcome to clerkship grading where everything is made up and the points don’t matter.

        You will get hosed on evaluations, but if you’re lucky enough, you’ll get that brand new, fresh out of training attending who is gunning for PSLF, doesn’t care about teaching, and gives you a 5/5 in every category. I had that happen once. It was his way of fighting against the system.

        I also did my surgery clerkship and only received 1 evaluation. He was a surgeon that I never even met, but he gave me a 95%. I later returned to that hospital for ICU, where I got one evaluation filled out from a PA.

        One of my goals in life is to work with medical students so I can give every single one a 100% and defeat the system from within.
         
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        efle

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          One of my goals in life is to work with medical students so I can give every single one a 100% and defeat the system from within.
          I had a burnt-out psych prelim as my Medicine intern and he tried to send me home every single day at 11am at the end of rounds.

          God bless him. That'll be me in my prelim, 110%.
           
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          IMGASMD

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            Welcome to clerkship grading where everything is made up and the points don’t matter.

            You will get hosed on evaluations, but if you’re lucky enough, you’ll get that brand new, fresh out of training attending who is gunning for PSLF, doesn’t care about teaching, and gives you a 5/5 in every category. I had that happen once. It was his way of fighting against the system.

            I also did my surgery clerkship and only received 1 evaluation. He was a surgeon that I never even met, but he gave me a 95%. I later returned to that hospital for ICU, where I got one evaluation filled out from a PA.

            One of my goals in life is to work with medical students so I can give every single one a 100% and defeat the system from within.

            Until you meet the one have classmates sign in. So literally no one ever met this kid. And no one can/want to put their names on the evaluation.
            Came back crying, because he didn’t get a grade for the rotation (elective-anesthesia). We are chill, but not stupid.
             
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            libertyyne

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              Until you meet the one have classmates sign in. So literally no one ever met this kid. And no one can/want to put their names on the evaluation.
              Came back crying, because he didn’t get a grade for the rotation (elective-anesthesia). We are chill, but not stupid.
              I think thats just poor form on behalf of the medical student. People are chill, but dont take advantage of them or put them in a bad situation, thats just basic common sense.
               
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              IMGASMD

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                I think thats just poor form on behalf of the medical student. People are chill, but dont take advantage of them or put them in a bad situation, thats just basic common sense.

                I don’t remember the last time, I gave a bad eval. You’d have to cross me a few times to get a 9/10.

                This just shows there are some people who have the intellectual capacity to be doctors, but zero understanding of human decency.
                 
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                GoSpursGo

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                  I’d appeal it on the basis that the attending never even interacted with you in a clinical situation.
                  I actually think this line of reasoning might have some legs. At least where I've trained, that attending probably should have declined the evaluation if he had never met you in a clinical setting. It's actually not totally outside the realm of possibility that the eval was intended for someone else that he did work with--otherwise I would expect that everyone who went to that lecture would have gotten the same crappy 3/5 eval.

                  At the end of the day, honestly I doubt that HP/H is going to make or break your residency application, but you probably have little to lose by at least trying. And you have a better reason for appealing than most.
                   

                  Dantrolene FC

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                    I don’t remember the last time, I gave a bad eval. You’d have to cross me a few times to get a 9/10.

                    This just shows there are some people who have the intellectual capacity to be doctors, but zero understanding of human decency.
                    I don’t know if you’re an attending or a resident, but the majority of attendings are not like you at my school. My first rotation was neurology, so I was fresh off step 1 and overly eager to learn, so I studied constantly for that rotation.

                    I knew almost all the pimp questions on rounds, more so than the brand new neurology interns. Then in the work room, the attending quizzed me for 15 minutes straight on the neuro exam and I got every question right. He even said “Dantrolene, you know you’re neuro exam very well.”

                    I received my evaluation 4 weeks later and received a 3/4 overall. No big deal right, until I noticed I got a 2/4 on knowledge and a 2/4 on physical exam skills. How can one possibly tell me I know my exam very well but only give a 2/4?

                    It was at this point that I knew clerkships evaluation were garbage, and I quit trying after that.

                    I also had a classmate on IM receive a comment that said he was functioning at the level of a 2nd year resident. Then he gets a 3/4 overall. I guess he was supposed to be functioning at the level of an attending to get honors or something.
                     
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                    GoSpursGo

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                      I don’t know if you’re an attending or a resident, but the majority of attendings are not like you at my school. My first rotation was neurology, so I was fresh off step 1 and overly eager to learn, so I studied constantly for that rotation.

                      I knew almost all the pimp questions on rounds, more so than the brand new neurology interns. Then in the work room, the attending quizzed me for 15 minutes straight on the neuro exam and I got every question right. He even said “Dantrolene, you know you’re neuro exam very well.”

                      I received my evaluation 4 weeks later and received a 3/4 overall. No big deal right, until I noticed I got a 2/4 on knowledge and a 2/4 on physical exam skills. How can one possibly tell me I know my exam very well but only give a 2/4?

                      It was at this point that I knew clerkships evaluation were garbage, and I quit trying after that.

                      I also had a classmate on IM receive a comment that said he was functioning at the level of a 2nd year resident. Then he gets a 3/4 overall. I guess he was supposed to be functioning at the level of an attending to get honors or something.
                      Sounds like your school grades according to the "milestones." If you actually read the descriptions, then yeah you'd need to be an attending to actually achieve what's written for a 4/4. If people actually consistently grade as they should, I find this kind of feedback much more meaningful than a random number, as you should see improvement over time. The main problem, obviously, is that you get hosed when one attending evaluates as intended and another gives 4/4 to everyone. Ideally the clerkship director should follow up when someone gives totally irrational evaluations like giving a fresh third year straight 4/4, but if there's no quality control on the back end then the evaluations wind up being random.
                       

                      slowthai

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                        Welcome to clerkship grading where everything is made up and the points don’t matter.

                        You will get hosed on evaluations, but if you’re lucky enough, you’ll get that brand new, fresh out of training attending who is gunning for PSLF, doesn’t care about teaching, and gives you a 5/5 in every category. I had that happen once. It was his way of fighting against the system.

                        I also did my surgery clerkship and only received 1 evaluation. He was a surgeon that I never even met, but he gave me a 95%. I later returned to that hospital for ICU, where I got one evaluation filled out from a PA.

                        One of my goals in life is to work with medical students so I can give every single one a 100% and defeat the system from within.

                        That has always been my exact plan if I was to end up in one of the fields with a core rotation.
                         
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                        Dantrolene FC

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                          Sounds like your school grades according to the "milestones." If you actually read the descriptions, then yeah you'd need to be an attending to actually achieve what's written for a 4/4. If people actually consistently grade as they should, I find this kind of feedback much more meaningful than a random number, as you should see improvement over time. The main problem, obviously, is that you get hosed when one attending evaluates as intended and another gives 4/4 to everyone. Ideally the clerkship director should follow up when someone gives totally irrational evaluations like giving a fresh third year straight 4/4, but if there's no quality control on the back end then the evaluations wind up being random.
                          Yup, you described my evaluations exactly as they are.

                          I honestly feel like my grades are dependent on who I’m randomly assigned to work with more so than my actual performance on rotations.
                           
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                          GoSpursGo

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                            Yup, you described my evaluations exactly as they are.

                            I honestly feel like my grades are dependent on who I’m randomly assigned to work with more so than my actual performance on rotations.
                            Yeah, that's a major problem with having people who don't actually have any educational background running a rotation/residency/fellowship. It's super easy to implement the milestones, but someone needs to be checking for fairness on the back end.
                             
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                            Dantrolene FC

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                              That has always been my exact plan if I was to end up in one of the fields with a core rotation.
                              Me too, but I’m going into anesthesia and it’s kinda expected that those rotations are going to be chill. So I guess I’ll have high expectations if you think about it that way.

                              I already know where I’ll be working. I’ll be at a place that has DO students rotating, but no residents. If the students is interested in anesthesia, I’ll teach them as much as they are interested and I’ll write them an awesome letter or recommendation. If they don’t want to go into anesthesia, I’ll ask them to come in each day, have some coffee, mask a patient, go home around 9 am, and give them honors.
                               
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                              IMGASMD

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                                I don’t know if you’re an attending or a resident, but the majority of attendings are not like you at my school. My first rotation was neurology, so I was fresh off step 1 and overly eager to learn, so I studied constantly for that rotation.

                                I knew almost all the pimp questions on rounds, more so than the brand new neurology interns. Then in the work room, the attending quizzed me for 15 minutes straight on the neuro exam and I got every question right. He even said “Dantrolene, you know you’re neuro exam very well.”

                                I received my evaluation 4 weeks later and received a 3/4 overall. No big deal right, until I noticed I got a 2/4 on knowledge and a 2/4 on physical exam skills. How can one possibly tell me I know my exam very well but only give a 2/4?

                                It was at this point that I knew clerkships evaluation were garbage, and I quit trying after that.

                                I also had a classmate on IM receive a comment that said he was functioning at the level of a 2nd year resident. Then he gets a 3/4 overall. I guess he was supposed to be functioning at the level of an attending to get honors or something.

                                It is field and institution dependent even when I was a student.

                                My third year IM site director was known to grade like the way you’ve been graded. So barely anyone comes out with HP/H. I got a pass and called it a day. What would you have thunk, my sub-I for medicine was? I hp it when I took a week off at the end of my 4 week rotation due to family emergency. I am pretty sure I would have honored the rotation if I didn’t. My senior resident loved me.

                                Anesthesia is a totally different animal. We know you don’t know anything about anesthesia. You just want to learn intubation, (unlikely during a rotation). It’s chill, because after I pimp you on all the pressors and drugs and dosages, I’ve had enough people interaction for the day. Sometimes I don’t even go that far. Be a decent human being, show up when I say you should. Don’t be stupid. If there is a lecture that is mandatory show up. We could careless that if you don’t want to be an anesthesiologist.

                                Do the best that you can. Any deans or department clinical directors worth anything know how their faculty members assign grades. These are things you cannot control. (You can by switching sites, if you have the option). Things that you can control is how you conduct yourself day to day. Don’t try to get away with things, we see it. We usually let things slide, but when you can’t even bother to show up and then ask for an eval, good luck, bro.

                                Currently attending anesthesiologist. Was an attending hospitalist. The event I described was when I was doing my anesthesia residency less than five years ago.

                                If you come from an ivory tower and/or going to one, these grades certainly “may” matter. If you’re going for a “regular” doctor job, you will be just fine. But I understand when you’re “in it”, it feels very different.

                                Good luck, op. Good luck to you all find something you like and enjoy.
                                 
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                                efle

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                                  It is field and institution dependent even when I was a student.

                                  My third year IM site director was known to grade like the way you’ve been graded. So barely anyone comes out with HP/H. I got a pass and called it a day. What would you have thunk, my sub-I for medicine was? I hp it when I took a week off at the end of my 4 week rotation due to family emergency. I am pretty sure I would have honored the rotation if I didn’t. My senior resident loved me.

                                  Anesthesia is a totally different animal. We know you don’t know anything about anesthesia. You just want to learn intubation, (unlikely during a rotation). It’s chill, because after I pimp you on all the pressors and drugs and dosages, I’ve had enough people interaction for the day. Sometimes I don’t even go that far. Be a decent human being, show up when I say you should. Don’t be stupid. If there is a lecture that is mandatory show up. We could careless that if you don’t want to be an anesthesiologist.

                                  Do the best that you can. Any deans or department clinical directors worth anything know how their faculty members assign grades. These are things you cannot control. (You can by switching sites, if you have the option). Things that you can control is how you conduct yourself day to day. Don’t try to get away with things, we see it. We usually let things slide, but when you can’t even bother to show up and then ask for an eval, good luck, bro.

                                  Currently attending anesthesiologist. Was an attending hospitalist. The event I described was when I was doing my anesthesia residency less than five years ago.

                                  If you come from an ivory tower and/or going to one, these grades certainly “may” matter. If you’re going for a “regular” doctor job, you will be just fine. But I understand when you’re “in it”, it feels very different.

                                  Good luck, op. Good luck to you all find something you like and enjoy.
                                  It definitely does feel pretty substantial when it's used as a screening criteria for certain audition rotations and again for residency interviews. One of my room mates caught a 3-bomb from someone he barely worked with and High Passed on Medicine, which along with Surgery, is apparently a must-honor criteria for a lot of residencies in his surgical subspecialty of interest. Would have been even more catastrophic if he caught those 3's on Surgery, which happened to another one of our friends who wanted to be a neurosurgeon.

                                  Sounds absurd, but I think this kind of bad luck can legit change where someone ends up training.
                                   
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                                  Goro

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                                    Just got back my grade in a specialty unrelated to what I want to do, got a HP even though I crushed the shelf and got great comments on my evals, but one of the attendings (who I never worked with or spoke to outside of one lecture) gave the classic, good student, worked hard, keep reading 3/5. I emailed the clerkship director and he essentially said everyone gets great comments, the numbers sank me. Is it worth appealing to my student dean? This is like the fourth time this year this has happened and I am so fed up with the way we are graded (I know I'm not a special snowflake who deserves all honors but this rotation particularly stings because I put so much into it). I want to go to a competitive specialty so I'm pretty anxious about my grades at this point (like half honors, half HP).
                                    You're not a premed anymore, so knock it off.
                                     
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                                    scrublyfe21

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                                      Good luck appealing man. Even if it were a legit situation you'd have so many hoops to jump through; My girlfriend had a clinical grade entered incorrectly on her transcript, and when she tried to get it changed they refused and gave her the runaround for months, even though she had proof of the error including copies of the eval and COMAT score adjusted for the school's grading scale. I couldn't imagine the laughs they'd have if a student felt they deserved a better grade and wanted it changed.
                                       
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                                      Epilepsy365

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                                        Me too, but I’m going into anesthesia and it’s kinda expected that those rotations are going to be chill. So I guess I’ll have high expectations if you think about it that way.

                                        I already know where I’ll be working. I’ll be at a place that has DO students rotating, but no residents. If the students is interested in anesthesia, I’ll teach them as much as they are interested and I’ll write them an awesome letter or recommendation. If they don’t want to go into anesthesia, I’ll ask them to come in each day, have some coffee, mask a patient, go home around 9 am, and give them honors.

                                        My plan as well when I become a resident. All 5/5s and Honors, and try to get the students out by noon if there’s no learning opportunities.

                                        Screw the system.
                                         
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                                        mehc012

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                                          Good luck appealing man. Even if it were a legit situation you'd have so many hoops to jump through; My girlfriend had a clinical grade entered incorrectly on her transcript, and when she tried to get it changed they refused and gave her the runaround for months, even though she had proof of the error including copies of the eval and COMAT score adjusted for the school's grading scale. I couldn't imagine the laughs they'd have if a student felt they deserved a better grade and wanted it changed.
                                          Depends on the school. I got a BS grade once (all good numbers, good evals, but a few people didn't like me so I got HP). They fixed it quickly in response to an appeal where my 'evidence' was me quoting the actual clerkship evaluation as my citation.
                                           
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                                          efle

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                                            Depends on the school. I got a BS grade once (all good numbers, good evals, but a few people didn't like me so I got HP). They fixed it quickly in response to an appeal where my 'evidence' was me quoting the actual clerkship evaluation as my citation.
                                            Y i k e s

                                            Trying to bump someone down who got Honors-level eval scores and shelf is next level petty. Like they feel OK potentially impacting your career trajectory over not vibing with you? Insane.
                                             
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                                            tyrsa

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                                              I appealed once, and got my grade changed. The clerkship director reached out to attendings I worked with but who didn't fill out an eval, and they filled out an eval and that pushed my grade into the higher category. But it was a lot of work to appeal.
                                               

                                              Mad Jack

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                                                Just got back my grade in a specialty unrelated to what I want to do, got a HP even though I crushed the shelf and got great comments on my evals, but one of the attendings (who I never worked with or spoke to outside of one lecture) gave the classic, good student, worked hard, keep reading 3/5. I emailed the clerkship director and he essentially said everyone gets great comments, the numbers sank me. Is it worth appealing to my student dean? This is like the fourth time this year this has happened and I am so fed up with the way we are graded (I know I'm not a special snowflake who deserves all honors but this rotation particularly stings because I put so much into it). I want to go to a competitive specialty so I'm pretty anxious about my grades at this point (like half honors, half HP).
                                                In my school HP went to 80%, honors to 10%. Are you actually top 10% material? You realize everyone is trying as hard as you, right?
                                                 
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                                                libertyyne

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                                                  In my school HP went to 80%, honors to 10%. Are you actually top 10% material? You realize everyone is trying as hard as you, right?
                                                  Idk about everyone trying as hard , a large chunk of people are p= md or have glaring deficits in their knowledge base. That can be easily measured by shelf performance on average.
                                                   

                                                  Mad Jack

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                                                    Idk about everyone trying as hard , a large chunk of people are p= md or have glaring deficits in their knowledge base. That can be easily measured by shelf performance on average.
                                                    At the same time, I know plenty of people that were garbage on rotations but killed their shelf exams because they focused solely on the tests
                                                     
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                                                    GoSpursGo

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                                                      In my school HP went to 80%, honors to 10%. Are you actually top 10% material? You realize everyone is trying as hard as you, right?
                                                      I mean, understood, but I think everyone here is giving the OP a hard time reflexively because 95% of the time when someone is whining about their grade they're doing it for subjective reasons, ie "My residents were mean and we didn't get along well so they gave me a low grade to spite me," "My attending is one of those where 'nobody' is a 5/5 student because they think everyone can improve," etc.

                                                      That's actually not what happened here. To get evaluated by an attending who didn't even interact with him in a clinical setting is pretty garbage, and it seems entirely reasonable that the attending inadvertently filled this evaluation out or should have declined the evaluation altogether. I don't know that it'll work, but at least the OP has a better reason for appealing than most, and they don't have much to lose by trying.
                                                       
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                                                      emhopeful1901

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                                                        I would try to appeal it. I successfully got my surgery grade changed from Pass to High Pass because I got the highest score on shelf out of our cohort. If you did really well on shelf, and only 1 bad evaluation you have a strong case for appeal!
                                                         
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