Would all DO schools pass LMCE accreditation?

[FlatIsJustice]

I feel like a good portion of them would fail.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Oh man been a while since I have seen this thread topic.

The two things DO schools would need to improve the most are research and clinical rotations, as a whole. Many schools would most likely meet the bare minimums for LCME accreditation. However, MD schools as a whole function at a higher level than the bare minimum of LCME accreditation. In the end, there still would be quite a handful of DO schools that are not able to reach that standard.

 

[FlatIsJustice]

Oh man been a while since I have seen this thread topic.

The two things DO schools would need to improve the most are research and clinical rotations, as a whole. Many schools would most likely meet the bare minimums for LCME accreditation. However, MD schools as a whole function at a higher level than the bare minimum of LCME accreditation. In the end, there still would be quite a handful of DO schools that are not able to reach that standard.

I wonder if anyone on these forums is brave enough to mention specific DO schools.

The fact is that many DO schools aren't giving adequate rotations. I've heard of students doing rotations in entirely outpatient settings and others who are basically shadowing instead of getting any experience. People on these forums just like to pretend that it's okay for that to happen since in the end they will all be physicians.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

People on these forums just like to pretend that it's okay for that to happen.

Nice inflammatory comment that has no basis. This is completely agreed upon by the vast majority of people here. Oh and schools have been named, just do a search.

I've heard

While yes there are instances where those things happen I suggest not using this phrase to start your sentences because it sounds like a gossipy 7th grader.

 

[FlatIsJustice]

Nice inflammatory comment that has no basis. This is completely agreed upon by the vast majority of people here. Oh and schools have been named, just do a search.

Which schools in your opinion need to improve their rotations?

 

[user3]

Oh man been a while since I have seen this thread topic.

The two things DO schools would need to improve the most are research and clinical rotations, as a whole. Many schools would most likely meet the bare minimums for LCME accreditation. However, MD schools as a whole function at a higher level than the bare minimum of LCME accreditation. In the end, there still would be quite a handful of DO schools that are not able to reach that standard.

many DO schools seem more interested in lazily instituting silly, counterproductive policies like mandated attendance, dress codes etc as if those will somehow make their students more "professional" and distinguish their programs, rather making sincere efforts to grow in the areas you mentioned.

 

[FlatIsJustice]

Still waiting for the poster who dares to post a list of schools that wouldn't make the cut.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Still waiting for the poster who dares to post a list of schools that wouldn't make the cut.

I dare...

School's that I don't believe would make the cut... KYCOM, LMU-DCOM, WCU. They have had enough time to establish themselves so no excuses there. I would put more, but would have to make sure of the facts first.

You can put a list if you like also.

 

[FlatIsJustice]

I dare...

School's that I don't believe would make the cut... KYCOM, LMU-DCOM, WCU. They have had enough time to establish themselves so no excuses there. I would put more, but would have to make sure of the facts first.

You can put a list if you like also.

There are a lot of schools that I suspect wouldn't make it but I haven't seen enough evidence for. I'd agree with LMU-DCOM and WCU. I'd add in LECOM. While many students have good rotation sites, not all students are able to get quality rotations. LECOM also doesn't even allow research until the 2nd year.

I suspect KYCOM, LUCOM and CUSOM

 

[IslandStyle808]

There are a lot of schools that I suspect wouldn't make it but I haven't seen enough evidence for. I'd agree with LMU-DCOM and WCU. I'd add in LECOM. While many students have good rotation sites, not all students are able to get quality rotations. LECOM also doesn't even allow research until the 2nd year.

I suspect KYCOM, LUCOM and CUSOM

If the standard were that all students had to have all rotations with GME in a hospital, then pretty much every DO school in the country would fail.

On a side note, I wouldn't put CUSOM in that list since it is new and has a decent amount of GME, to top it all off it is an ACMGE approved sponsor for its residencies (this is exemplary for a new school).

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

There are a lot of schools that I suspect wouldn't make it but I haven't seen enough evidence for. I'd agree with LMU-DCOM and WCU. I'd add in LECOM. While many students have good rotation sites, not all students are able to get quality rotations. LECOM also doesn't even allow research until the 2nd year.

I suspect KYCOM, LUCOM and CUSOM

Research is something you do on your own, during the summers, etc. It's generally not possible for DO students to do with in the year due to OMM time constraints.

LECOM is an established school and doesn't provide awful rotations. CUSOM's rotations I personally believe are likely good.

LUCOM probably will be a flop.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Personally while I believe that LCME is a standard that DO schools should aspire to. There's too much borderline self flagellation on this board about rotations. Not all MD schools have great rotations and plenty of them have issues. Yes, by in large they're worse in the DO world, but DOs are still passing their step 2s and they're practicing indistinguishably both in residency and in the real world. This makes me believe that at the very least the DO rotations by in large meet a minimal criteria for training physicians.

 

[Lifschitz]

If the standard were that all students had to have all rotations with GME in a hospital, then pretty much every DO school in the country would fail.

On a side note, I wouldn't put CUSOM in that list since it is new and has a decent amount of GME, to top it all off it is an ACMGE approved sponsor for its residencies (this is exemplary for a new school).

If that were the standard, a decent handful of MD schools would fail, including mine.

 

[IslandStyle808]

If that were the standard, a decent handful of MD schools would fail, including mine.

Yep, and the luckily that isn't the bar that all MD schools have to meet.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Which schools in your opinion need to improve their rotations?

KYCOM, LMU-DCOM (maybe, I know they get crap here but I have family members who went there and they said that a good amount of students actually have a good clinical experience), LUCOM, WCU-COM.

LECOM would probably pass easily and CUSOM would too. I think most DO schools actually would pass fairly easily. If you look at the LCME requirements the bare minimums aren't as far off from COCA's as you would first think. The biggest issue would be research IMO.

 

[FlatIsJustice]

KYCOM, LMU-DCOM (maybe, I know they get crap here but I have family members who went there and they said that a good amount of students actually have a good clinical experience), LUCOM, WCU-COM.

LECOM would probably pass easily and CUSOM would too. I think most DO schools actually would pass fairly easily. If you look at the LCME requirements the bare minimums aren't as far off from COCA's as you would first think. The biggest issue would be research IMO.

Do you think research is a big issue? Lots of MD schools get under 5m of NIH funding per year. How much do DO schools get?

 

[IslandStyle808]

Do you think research is a big issue? Lots of MD schools get under 5m of NIH funding per year. How much do DO schools get?

I'm gonna call in @AlteredScale on this one, the master of R01 and R15 grants.

 

[AlteredScale]

Do you think research is a big issue? Lots of MD schools get under 5m of NIH funding per year. How much do DO schools get?

Look up "NIHReporter" and search a DO school. You will see that most of them will not evem show bc most DO schools do not have research to that level. If they do its usually smaller grants R15s (10 to maybe 100K) Example: my school has had their FIRST professor with an Active R01, if you search UMKC or KU Med you
l see a large amount of clinician scientists with R01 or collab P01 grants. There are def some MD schools that also dont have research (quinnipac and CalNorthState comes to mind but this may have changed) but its def the minority.

Almost all do schools will say this is not an issue because they are "focused in building primary care physicians", which is a load of hogwash.


Sent from my iPad using SDN mobile app

 

[FlatIsJustice]

Look up "NIHReporter" and search a DO school. You will see that most of them will not evem show bc most DO schools do not have research to that level. If they do its usually smaller grants R15s (10 to maybe 100K) Example: my school has had their FIRST professor with an Active R01, if you search UMKC or KU Med you
l see a large amount of clinician scientists with R01 or collab P01 grants. There are def some MD schools that also dont have research (quinnipac and CalNorthState comes to mind but this may have changed) but its def the minority.

Almost all do schools will say this is not an issue because they are "focused in building primary care physicians", which is a load of hogwash.


Sent from my iPad using SDN mobile app

Wow most DO schools didn't even show up. I had no idea the discrepancy was that big.

 

[AlteredScale]

Wow most DO schools didn't even show up. I had no idea the discrepancy was that big.

That is a huge issue and the lack of it would shut down all DO schools except for maybe the state funded ones (MSU, Rowan, Ohio Heritage, OSU, TCOM, and UNE though I don't know if UNE is public). And again, it's "resolved" with the AOA backed statement "holistic care and primary care focused" as well as the statement "we have the JAOA" which is a sorry excuse for a research journal.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Well to be fair, seeing as DOs tend to go more into PC and usually end up as community docs the lack of research only hurts the students who want to go into academics or into competative specialties that require it. Contrary to SDN I doubt the majority of DO students are really that affected

Edit: to be clear I do think DO schools should at least give the opportunity for research to those students who wish to pursue it. They should have a system in place

 

[pmarank]

That is a huge issue and the lack of it would shut down all DO schools except for maybe the state funded ones (MSU, Rowan, Ohio Heritage, OSU, TCOM, and UNE though I don't know if UNE is public). And again, it's "resolved" with the AOA backed statement "holistic care and primary care focused" as well as the statement "we have the JAOA" which is a sorry excuse for a research journal.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

So are DO schools still a good idea? If someone gets into a DO school, should they really reapply to MD?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

So are DO schools still a good idea? If someone gets into a DO school, should they really reapply to MD?

No. What should happen is that people with a decent chance at MD should apply their first cycle to MD only. They shouldn't be applying with a 3.6/510 and just assume they will get into MD and not have to go to the DO schools they got accepted at. You see it all the time. My rule I have developed: If you have a 3.6+/508+ then give your first cycle a broad MD only app. If you don't get in MD then your second cycle should be a healthy mix of both. If your stats are lower than that then you are a long shot for MD and need to be realistic and be ready to go DO in your first cycle.

 

[Henry101]

LECOM would definitely not pass.
Maybe their Erie campus might pass but they would be asked to cut the class size and hire more faculty.

 

[IslandStyle808]

So are DO schools still a good idea? If someone gets into a DO school, should they really reapply to MD?

Once you get in you take it. You can still do research as a DO but you need to be very clever about where you go. Try to find the nearest MD school and beg for some. Or a local hospital that has a project going on. There are also summer research fellowships that you can do. I think this is one of the pluses of medical education, you can take some control of your educational opportunities (ex. research at institution outside your schools as well as training at reputable hospitals for clinic rotations).

In the end, attending MD schools are the best bet for research projects. You can approach both clinical faculty and basic faculty and they have loads of it that have already been through IRB approval. From the few friend I have spoken with about their research, it seems like a there is a ton of guidance given by the principle investigator. I am not even getting into the fact that MD schools have their own residencies and you could even do speciality specific research.

But once you have that acceptance, you matriculate to that school. If you want to go to an MD school badly, you apply MD only for one cycle and then apply MD/DO the second.

 

[Henry101]

Once you get in you take it. You can still do research as a DO but you need to be very clever about where you go. Try to find the nearest MD school and beg for some. Or a local hospital that has a project going on. There are also summer research fellowships that you can do. I think this is one of the pluses of medical education, you can take some control of your educational opportunities (ex. research at institution outside your schools as well as training at reputable hospitals for clinic rotations).

In the end, attending MD schools are the best bet for research projects. You can approach both clinical faculty and basic faculty and they have loads of it that have already been through IRB approval. From the few friend I have spoken with about their research, it seems like a there is a ton of guidance given by the principle investigator. I am not even getting into the fact that MD schools have their own residencies and you could even do speciality specific research.

But once you have that acceptance, you matriculate to that school. If you want to go to an MD school badly, you apply MD only for one cycle and then apply MD/DO the second.

I remember one time during a DO interview day, someone asked the Dean during an interview about research and he laughed and said that very very few students can juggle meaningful research and medical school at the same time. I asked the same question during an MD interview and that Dean also laughed and said, "Figure out how to pass anatomy then think about research." I'll never forget it.

 

[IslandStyle808]

I remember one time during a DO interview day, someone asked the Dean during an interview about research and he laughed and said that very very few students can juggle meaningful research and medical school at the same time. I asked the same question during an MD interview and that Dean also laughed and said, "Figure out how to pass anatomy then think about research." I'll never forget it.

As soon as you start school, I bet you will understand those words even more so.... I can't begin to fathom how many inferences there are from those two situations....

 

[IslandStyle808]

Well to be fair, seeing as DOs tend to go more into PC and usually end up as community docs the lack of research only hurts the students who want to go into academics or into competative specialties that require it. Contrary to SDN I doubt the majority of DO students are really that affected

Edit: to be clear I do think DO schools should at least give the opportunity for research to those students who wish to pursue it. They should have a system in place

I think the key thing would be to require faculty to do have research project themselves. They don't need to be at the level of MD faculty, but some small projects. The number one answer I had from my interviews as to why my interviewers came to school X is because they wanted to escape research and actually teach. So it would turn off faculty from wanting to be there if there is too much research to do.

 

[AlteredScale]

I think the key thing would be to require faculty to do have research project themselves. They don't need to be at the level of MD faculty, but some small projects. The number one answer I had from my interviews as to why my interviewers came to school X is because they wanted to escape research and actually teach. So it would turn off faculty from wanting to be there if there is too much research to do.

I agree with this. The strange thing is that none of our clinical faculty (the ones that teach in preclinical but are MD/DO) do research. That being said, most of them work at community hospitals where research is kaput and the school prides itself on having a "teaching first" mentality. I just find it so strange that at MD and some DO schools you have researchers who are also incredible teachers.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[ortnakas]

What are the LCME requirements other than research? (sure, I could look it up, but I'm feeling lazy and am assuming one of you has a link offhand).

 

[hallowmann]

Still waiting for the poster who dares to post a list of schools that wouldn't make the cut.

Without warning practically none would pass LCME standards. With warning and a reasonable transition time, virtually all would.

There are a lot of schools that I suspect wouldn't make it but I haven't seen enough evidence for. I'd agree with LMU-DCOM and WCU. I'd add in LECOM. While many students have good rotation sites, not all students are able to get quality rotations. LECOM also doesn't even allow research until the 2nd year.

I suspect KYCOM, LUCOM and CUSOM

What exactly do you mean "doesn't allow research"? LECOM might not allow school-sponsored research and might not allow MS1s to present posters at the school events, but I know students who did outside research in MS1. I almost did that. It's true though that not many could do that for at very least the first half of the year. That said, many did research the summer after MS1.

I agree with this. The strange thing is that none of our clinical faculty (the ones that teach in preclinical but are MD/DO) do research. That being said, most of them work at community hospitals where research is kaput and the school prides itself on having a "teaching first" mentality. I just find it so strange that at MD and some DO schools you have researchers who are also incredible teachers.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

Research doesn't preclude someone from being a good teacher, it just might not coincide with it. It's also hard to be a good teacher when you have to commit the majority of your time to research vs. teaching. I'm sure there are schools and individuals that know how to balance both, but that's probably not the majority.

Most docs don't do research unless they either love it or they have to.

 

[AlteredScale]

Without warning practically none would pass LCME standards. With warning and a reasonable transition time, virtually all would.



What exactly do you mean "doesn't allow research"? LECOM might not allow school-sponsored research and might not allow MS1s to present posters at the school events, but I know students who did outside research in MS1. I almost did that. It's true though that not many could do that for at very least the first half of the year. That said, many did research the summer after MS1.



Research doesn't preclude someone from being a good teacher, it just might not coincide with it. It's also hard to be a good teacher when you have to commit the majority of your time to research vs. teaching. I'm sure there are schools and individuals that know how to balance both, but that's probably not the majority.

Most docs don't do research unless they either love it or they have to.

Oh of course I'm not saying all teachers should be researchers it's just that the absence of them from many DO schools especially on the side of clinical medicine is frustrating. Having teachers who are also aware of the newest guidelines for treatment or understanding a better way to dx because they are also on the forefront helps medical students either way.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[AlteredScale]

What are the LCME requirements other than research? (sure, I could look it up, but I'm feeling lazy and am assuming one of you has a link offhand).

There's a ton of standards and codes and substandard a in the lcme accred handbook. A good article that discusses the differences was an editorial note by Dan Hunt the previous co secretary of the lcme from UVA in response to an article that tried to discuss the similarities between coca and lcme accred.

http://mobile.journals.lww.com/acad....aspx?year=2010&issue=01000&article=00002#ath


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Look up "NIHReporter" and search a DO school. You will see that most of them will not evem show bc most DO schools do not have research to that level. If they do its usually smaller grants R15s (10 to maybe 100K) Example: my school has had their FIRST professor with an Active R01, if you search UMKC or KU Med you
l see a large amount of clinician scientists with R01 or collab P01 grants. There are def some MD schools that also dont have research (quinnipac and CalNorthState comes to mind but this may have changed) but its def the minority.

Almost all do schools will say this is not an issue because they are "focused in building primary care physicians", which is a load of hogwash.


Sent from my iPad using SDN mobile app

As I mentioned before, ideally research should be conducted at all medical schools. However it's a sprinkle/cherry on top of everything. Even at our school we have some faculty that take 3rd year and 4th year students both from UMKC and our own school. In the end it's not exactly necessary to train component physicians as the vast majority don't want to be researchers.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Still waiting for the poster who dares to post a list of schools that wouldn't make the cut.

LMUDCOM- hands down awful clinicals, and now they have like 250/class.

KYCOM-pretty much the same, but at least they're cheap.

All VCOMs- while there's nothing wrong with having a "family medicine focus," but it's pretty obvious that they want you to spend most of your time shadowing at doctors offices and not in actual hospitals.

ACOM- they boast heavily about their clinical network with the AMEC, but it's just a glorified network of preceptors. There's like one community-based IM, and I think 2 FM residencies in the whole network of 5 cities. Although I've heard these preceptors are paid very well so hopefully it's s good learning experience.

LECOM-B- I think this has been discussed enough on these boards.

PNWU- That one is per my friends comments that interviewed there. I never did.

WCU- Just terrible all around. Very few people on these boards have anything positive to say about this school from clinicals, education, boards, research, cafeteria food, anything.

LUCOM- No explanation required.

LECOM- Despite the complaints, LECOM-E/SH has more going for their students than any of the aforementioned schools. They would probably just have to scale back to one campus and reduce class size. They just stretch things too thin IMO.

All DO schools would have to get going w research and most would have to scale back class size.

I'm not a snob. I totally applied to most of those schools, and would have attended if I had to.

When I signed up for DO, I thought I was signing up for basically a community-based MD school with less of a research emphasis. That's fine. And that's pretty much what you get with the established/state funded schools. But for the most part they're one building cookie-cutter tuition check cashing embarrassments.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Personally I think whether we want to admit it or not, we need to talk about both the necessity of the state to recognize the role DO schools play in their healthcare system and that they need to provide them with funding and the need for DO schools to cut back on enrollment. I believe honestly that most schools should at most be between 175-225 ( Which schools like LMU being at most 125-150 students tops and schools like DMU being allowed to have 200).

 

[W19]

Personally I think whether we want to admit it or not, we need to talk about both the necessity of the state to recognize the role DO schools play in their healthcare system and that they need to provide them with funding and the need for DO schools to cut back on enrollment. I believe honestly that most schools should at most be between 175-225 ( Which schools like LMU being at most 125-150 students tops and schools like DMU being allowed to have 200).

225 is too many... No more than 150 students... I am attending a low tier MD school; we have a small class size and things get pretty chaotic sometimes.

 

[QualityProcess]

Research is something you do on your own, during the summers, etc. It's generally not possible for DO students to do with in the year due to OMM time constraints.

this is nonsense. There is a lot of research available at Nova if you're interested, and a good portion of my class did it throughout the year. Yes OMM requires time but its not like anatomy or physiology.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

this is nonsense. There is a lot of research available at Nova if you're interested, and a good portion of my class did it throughout the year. Yes OMM requires time but its not like anatomy or physiology.

Possibly, maybe my school might be an outlier. But no one in my class has manage to be able to continue commitments to research opportunities, but that may be due to the curriculum here being insane.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

225 is too many... No more than 150 students... I am attending a low tier MD school; we have a small class size and things get pretty chaotic sometimes.

I think reducing it too far for many schools risks creating enormous disparities for the community. Which is why my first point exists, KCU provides KS and MO more physicians than any of the MD schools, we have an enormous impact on the healthcare environment. We should be getting funding that reflects that.

 

[chibaddie]

.

 

[redhope]

LMUDCOM- hands down awful clinicals, and now they have like 250/class.

KYCOM-pretty much the same, but at least they're cheap.

All VCOMs- while there's nothing wrong with having a "family medicine focus," but it's pretty obvious that they want you to spend most of your time shadowing at doctors offices and not in actual hospitals.

ACOM- they boast heavily about their clinical network with the AMEC, but it's just a glorified network of preceptors. There's like one community-based IM, and I think 2 FM residencies in the whole network of 5 cities. Although I've heard these preceptors are paid very well so hopefully it's s good learning experience.

LECOM-B- I think this has been discussed enough on these boards.

PNWU- That one is per my friends comments that interviewed there. I never did.

WCU- Just terrible all around. Very few people on these boards have anything positive to say about this school from clinicals, education, boards, research, cafeteria food, anything.

LUCOM- No explanation required.

LECOM- Despite the complaints, LECOM-E/SH has more going for their students than any of the aforementioned schools. They would probably just have to scale back to one campus and reduce class size. They just stretch things too thin IMO.

All DO schools would have to get going w research and most would have to scale back class size.

I'm not a snob. I totally applied to most of those schools, and would have attended if I had to.

When I signed up for DO, I thought I was signing up for basically a community-based MD school with less of a research emphasis. That's fine. And that's pretty much what you get with the established/state funded schools. But for the most part they're one building cookie-cutter tuition check cashing embarrassments.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I like your list a lot. The schools in bold are the worst medical schools in the country (for all of the aforementioned LCME reasons and more) and should have the daylights audited out of them by the COCA.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I think PNWU has improved. I think VCOM needs to be reduced too only a single school.

In general branch campuses need to be just that, branches, with at max 50 students, not walmart style extensions.

 

[Ho0v-man]

I like your list a lot. The schools in bold are the worst medical schools in the country (for all of the aforementioned LCME reasons and more) and should have the daylights audited out of them by the COCA.

I would agree, but I'd also like to point out that you can still be a good doc if you go to one of those schools. One of those bolded schools is the alma mater of one of the best neurosurgeons I've ever seen.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[GUH]

I wonder if anyone on these forums is brave enough to mention specific DO schools.

The fact is that many DO schools aren't giving adequate rotations. I've heard of students doing rotations in entirely outpatient settings and others who are basically shadowing instead of getting any experience. People on these forums just like to pretend that it's okay for that to happen since in the end they will all be physicians.

I'm not sure why it's a problem to do a few completely outpatient rotations. Could you please explain?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I'm not sure why it's a problem to do a few completely outpatient rotations. Could you please explain?

I think the issue is when the majority are outpatient. It seems especially like schools like KYCOM and LMU have too much of their rotations as outpatients. Which honestly is not acceptable, thought not as unacceptable as the fact that despite LMU's 80-85% first time COMLEX pass rate ( Don't give me that they were a new school bs) they were allowed to boost enrollment to 250 a few years ago.

 

[Goro]

Mine would. LUCOM wouldn't.

I feel like a good portion of them would fail.

 

[Goro]

Schools that use a majority of there clerkships as preceptor based, vs wards based.

Still waiting for the poster who dares to post a list of schools that wouldn't make the cut.

 

[DrBowtie]

I suspect most would fail but not for education related reasons.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I suspect most would fail but not for education related reasons.

Fundamentally the LCME requirement for funding and money allocation i.e not being tuition driven is a major crux for many DO schools that don't have enormous endowments.