No. You will be screwed if you marry a person out of feel of being lonely and end up getting divorced a few years later- losing half of your net worth. Be patient.
Would I be screwed if I entered residency single?
- Thread starter CuriousMDStudent
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You’re going to get a range of answers. Personally, I wish I put more effort into finding a life partner. Instead I’ve become a journeyman, having lived in 3 different cities since starting medical medical school then intern year then residency. And I’ll probably end up going somewhere else again for fellowship or practice.
In that time I was in a handful of relationships, but one of them was the closest I’ve ever come to finding “the One” (in fact I still maintain that she is the perfect woman for me; the relationship ended because I had to move away). Now I’m miserable outside of the hospital and don’t want to start anything new here in my new city because I’ll probably end up moving away again. Can’t go through that heartbreak a second time around.
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What? An M4’s who is 26-27 can be making $300k+ in 3-4 years. That isn’t exactly a long-con or a risky con (not that being attracted to someone with financial means is even a con to begin with). Sure there might be some “gold diggers” who want the $80k car NOW, but there are also plenty of people who are fine with waiting 3-4 years to enjoy that sweet physician paycheck for the next 30 years.
And in regards to debt, 25% of US MD grads have ZERO education debt (undergrad+medical school), another 20% have less than $150k. And then even for the remaining 55%, a true gold digger will just push for 10-20 year repayment with most of the household income being spent and not saved. That still works out to being a lavish lifestyle in any scenario outside of a NYC pediatrician.
This part especially warrants a
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It sounds like you are not emotionally ready for a relationship (have you ever been in one?), which is fine--everyone matures emotionally at different rates. Being in a healthy relationship makes your life more beautiful and enjoyable so I would not look at a relationship as a waste of time.
If you are hyper career focused and view a relationship as "a waste of time", there will never bee a "good" time to find a partner.
Once you match, your focus will be getting the hot-shot fellowship spot. During fellowship you will want to do extra research for the best chances at a decent super-fellowship spot. During super-fellowship you will want to impress your attendings so you can transition to a junior faculty spot. As junior faculty you will need to work extra hard so you can rise within your department. Once you are chair of the department, you will need to work twice as hard so you can be considered for an Assistant Dean position. As an Assistant Dean, you will be under the microscope and will not have the mental capacity to entertain a relationship since you are so close to being Dean of the Medical School.
Hyperbole aside, if you are very focused on your career now, that is a choice, and so is being single. You CAN be a hard-charging doctor and be in a mutually loving relationship...I mean 20% of married physicians are married to other physicians. You just have to chose to.
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Haha as someone who has always had to fend the opposite sex off, that gif does not compute. All I’m saying is that the days of doctors having to worry about someone (other than their spouse) hitting their financial pockets are gone. I hate to break this to a lot of you, but most doctors simply do not make a lot of money. 200-250k salary with 300k+ debt is not a great financial situation. Most people are aware of the debt and timesink that medicine is and would avoid dating med students.What? An M4’s who is 26-27 can be making $300k+ in 3-4 years. That isn’t exactly a long-con or a risky con (not that being attracted to someone with financial means is even a con to begin with). Sure there might be some “gold diggers” who want the $80k car NOW, but there are also plenty of people who are fine with waiting 3-4 years to enjoy that sweet physician paycheck for the next 30 years.
And in regards to debt, 25% of US MD grads have ZERO education debt (undergrad+medical school), another 20% have less than $150k. And then even for the remaining 55%, a true gold digger will just push for 10-20 year repayment with most of the household income being spent and not saved. That still works out to being a lavish lifestyle in any scenario outside of a NYC pediatrician.
This part especially warrants a
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I know OP is male but another serious issue facing medical education is having a family as a female doctor. It’s part of a bigger crisis. Our most educated are having less children at a time when psuedoscience and social media is destroying our culture.
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Hmm smells a little troll-y…
…okay then.
Just for others reading, $300k in debt and $200k is disingenuous because less than 15% of medical students have >$300k debt and $190k was the 25th percentile total comp for general peds for MGMA 3 years ago (MGMA is deflated and peds is the lowest paid residency). A more fair statement would be $300k salary and $200k debt, which 98% of Americans and 99.9% of the world would love to have.
Never mind the fact that $200k is 90th percentile family income in the US and $300k debt with that salary can easily be paid off in 10 years (and 3-4 years if 0 debt is your priority).
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Anything is possible. You will see fellow residents go through divorces while in training. Completing a residency at a medical center will be your greatest opportunity for dating and relationships.
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Finding and maintaining a relationship regardless of medical school/residency is difficult. You’ll have married classmates and residents who get divorced, couples who meet during training and everything in between.
The big red flag in this whole thread is the over analysis of dating or the possible partner. Some of you sound like you’re prepping for an MMI or oral board exam. If you approach meeting someone like it’s game theory then you’ve missed the entire mark.
When you aren’t studying or working, go out and do the things you love doing, hang out with friends, etc. Hopefully you run into someone who’s interested in the same things as you.
The big red flag in this whole thread is the over analysis of dating or the possible partner. Some of you sound like you’re prepping for an MMI or oral board exam. If you approach meeting someone like it’s game theory then you’ve missed the entire mark.
When you aren’t studying or working, go out and do the things you love doing, hang out with friends, etc. Hopefully you run into someone who’s interested in the same things as you.
I didn't read all the replies but my advice is that dating and courting a spouse can be a passive process for a medical student (rather than going on dates every free moment you have). That said, if you happen upon the man/woman of your dreams (in your late 20s you can probably determine that in a few months), don't let a few extra hours of studying or residency location or whatever get in the way building that relationship. No idea what life would have looked like for me had I not pursued my wife, who is still the woman of my dreams 28 years later.
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I know. This thread is so wild, I love it. To hear some of you talk, you'd think physicians are required to put a ring on the first pretty person who bats their eyes at them. No way at all of sussing out any ulterior motives!
You guys are blowing right past options such as:
- Having a discussion with your partner about your shared financial values
- Having many discussions with your partner about your shared financial values
- Finding a partner who is financially independent
- Drawing up a prenuptial agreement
- Getting to know each other before you get married
- Trusting each other before you get married
- Not getting married at all
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Can I just say it?
For you as a male, this is something of relatively less concern. As a male attending in a surgical specialty, you will be a hot commodity in a few years. Do watch out for gold diggers, but one decent way to get rid of them is to mention that you have debt (if you do), or just how busy you are, or the risk associated with your occupation (lawsuits etc). People who are truly invested will want to make it work despite the challenges, while other will fall away once they understand being a doctor is not all sunshine and roses.
For better or for worse, society is still relatively sexist, and a female’s relationship prospects dwindle with age, while men’s does less so. Women’s looks (unfortunately) are a big part of their perceived attractiveness, and those decline with age. For men this applies less. Women’s fertility also declines with age, which is a whole other reason why women in medicine get the short end of the stick.
Finally, there is less stigma with men dating partners younger than them while for women there definitely is, so as you age your dating pool doesn’t narrow as much.
I think the only possible issue is that if you are 30 and you have *never* had a relationship potential partners may wonder if there is something more “wrong” with you than just being busy with your career. Not much to be done there except just go with the flow and date of you feel a strong attraction, but no need to force anything.
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Although, I feel I need to introduce a caveat in the interest of injecting more absurdity into this conversation.
Some gold diggers are tenacious. Where I come from, there is a saying, “if you want to be a general’s wife, you have to nab him as a lieutenant.” In medicine, if you want to marry a doctor, you need to date a Med student.
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Seriously, though! I mean, it’s not to get anyone going into medicine a big head about not dating someone “beneath them” either. It’s just dating requires you to get to know people so you can get to know who you are.
With that said, I think people forget that even people who get married or have dated for a long time can change. A big part of any committed relationship is learning how to love them and learning if you can love them through the changes they face. Your partner or spouse will not always be the same person they were when they met you, as well.
On a different note — I understand why prenuptials exist and maybe when it comes to inheritances, personal assets you acquired prior to marrying whomever you feel you are in a match (or love-match) with, et cetera.
In fact, I know of one such couple whom I’m friends with that signed a pre-nuptial because one of them had an ex from their first marriage, who always asked them for money. Strange situation that gets stranger, but my point is: stuff happens & pre-nuptials are useful for protecting you & your partner from funny words such as “alimony” and such.
Bottom line? It’s a choice to be LEGALLY single or married. Dating is a choice too. Don’t do it just because everybody else is doing it, or you feel alone. You’ll know when you feel like dating, but no one is saying this matter is urgent.
Besides! Sometimes, you meet someone great when you decided to stop dating!! That’s what happened to me. 😅
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Let’s not be naive. Earning potential is one of the factors many, many people consider when choosing a potential life partner. It only makes sense because shared finances are a big part of any long term commitment.
Operative words being “one of,” and “consider.”
If finances are the *only* or far and away the most important criterium a person uses to pick a partner, that is of course the definition of gold diggerism.
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With respect to disclosing occupation on the first few dates- I never found it super hard to avoid. Not MD here, but nonetheless not particularly keen to share that I'm a psychologist at first either; strategy = saying something vague but still true. "I help coach parents in a health clinic so they feel better able to teach their kids with IDD." or "I do research in ___ at ____." or teach grad students about research or any number of other things that are maybe a tiny sliver of the many things I do- not the whole picture which would take too long to explain, but also not inaccurate; . Then immediately segue into "so ... when you are not working... what do you like to do for fun? What's your ideal weekend away / ideal staycation?"
I try to avoid asking others point blank about their job role either during the first few dates (also because I prefer less predictable questions to get a non-rehearsed answer). But I might ask them what do they like most about their job and why or who is the person they like the best at work and why/what they like or admire about htat person. First few dates I'd rather not talk about work anyway - I already spend a ton of my day thinking about it and maybe others feel the same.
Never had anyone be upset about my not disclosing full stop on the first few dates. if asked for explanation about not being immediately explicit, something along the lines of "eh, people have a whole lot of stereotypes or preconceived ideas about psychologists & I tend to worry about that might cloud the getting to know each other process. But now that we've reached this point, happy to answer any questions... or share a couple of my funniest stories (de-identified of course. but I've got some good ones that illustrate why I love my job so much).
I concur with those stating nothing disadvantageous or atypical about waiting until your 30s / until something that feels effortlessly exciting comes along and not putting active effort into it until after residency. I can't say I was very emotionally or physically available, or at my best in any kind of way while I was in training and also was in some ways a different person / prioritized things a bit differently by the time I was done so if a relationship doesn't organicially arise in the meantime, eh, there's some utility in seeing how things shake out with yourself / what you want in a relationship x number of years from now when it's easier to look further ahead into the future / past the day to day grind.
I try to avoid asking others point blank about their job role either during the first few dates (also because I prefer less predictable questions to get a non-rehearsed answer). But I might ask them what do they like most about their job and why or who is the person they like the best at work and why/what they like or admire about htat person. First few dates I'd rather not talk about work anyway - I already spend a ton of my day thinking about it and maybe others feel the same.
Never had anyone be upset about my not disclosing full stop on the first few dates. if asked for explanation about not being immediately explicit, something along the lines of "eh, people have a whole lot of stereotypes or preconceived ideas about psychologists & I tend to worry about that might cloud the getting to know each other process. But now that we've reached this point, happy to answer any questions... or share a couple of my funniest stories (de-identified of course. but I've got some good ones that illustrate why I love my job so much).
I concur with those stating nothing disadvantageous or atypical about waiting until your 30s / until something that feels effortlessly exciting comes along and not putting active effort into it until after residency. I can't say I was very emotionally or physically available, or at my best in any kind of way while I was in training and also was in some ways a different person / prioritized things a bit differently by the time I was done so if a relationship doesn't organicially arise in the meantime, eh, there's some utility in seeing how things shake out with yourself / what you want in a relationship x number of years from now when it's easier to look further ahead into the future / past the day to day grind.
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I second you on the "never the perfect time"- and ALSO- OMG. hats off to you. Some of my cohort also had kids while in various points of training (in psychology which I assume has hours much more friendly to a regularish sleep schedule) and it still boggles my mind. Benefit of having found the right match in a partner I suppose 🙂
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I was initially bummed out I didn't interact much with the fairer sex in high school/college. The good news was people engage in the same dating tendencies they did in high school, college, medical school, residency, and beyond. While the prospects thin at each stage, you'll find great prospects at any stage of your life. This shouldn't be a concern.
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I think this is a YMMV situation. I have found that not only do the prospects thin, but the pool gets enriched with people who aren't exactly easy-going, relationship-focused, team-building, well-adjusted partners. If you are someone with those traits, you're probably getting scooped up earlier. That's not to say there aren't fantastic partners who are single at every age, but they're definitely more rare.
Please keep in mind that I write this as a nearly-30, unmarried MD/PhD student, and I simply cannot rationally consider myself an easy-going, relationship-focused, team-building, well-adjusted partner. I don't think any MSTP student can reasonably say they encompass those traits...
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You're on SDN asking about your dating prospects at 23 instead of going out to a bar or a club.
You're probably screwed amigo.
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Was waiting for this LMAO
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This post wins the thread
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Just see what happens. Put yourself out there, don't force anything and see what happens. I wouldn't go crazy looking everyday and wouldn't put anything off. It's not a "distraction" and you shouldn't put off a natural thing. Just put yourself out there and take opportunities as they come.
And don't be one of those people who puts career above all forever. Dating will get harder as you get older. Your pool shrinks. Your looks decline, you can lose hair and you become less physically attractive. A smaller pool and less appealing physically will make things much harder.
This is literally not true. Women who are looking for a lavish lifestyle will get a sugar daddy who can finance what they want (right there and then). There are high traffic sites for these kinds of arrangements, meaning it's a direct and upfront exchange. They're not looking for a med student or residents or even an attending unless you're willing to finance a 20k exotic trip or pay their 3k monthly rent among other expenses. You seriously think those people will "date" someone who is many years away from a income that likely won't even be enough to cover the lifestyle they want?
Women who are not in that category won't care that you're a doctor or make good money. Which is most people...
And the whole women being "after your money" thing is a delusion. Ironically, it's the guys who are chronically single (with money) who worry about it the most.
It's a basic question. The opposite side won't care either way. Being a doctor is a big deal among the medicine community. Outside the hospital, other than mom & dad, people care a lot less.
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"Gold digging" isn't a real thing anymore. Those women want a sugar daddy, which means they want one today and they'll have a set arrangement. And the type of spending they demand far exceeds what most doctors can afford, depending on how attractive they are.
No one is going to date someone they aren't attracted to so that in 7-8 years - they can have a lavish lifestyle. I say 7-8 because no one is buying a mansion/ exotic sports car straight out of residency.
I think you're talking about how you think it goes rather than how things actually go.
But do you actually have any proof that doctors (in 2021, not the 1980s) attract "gold diggers"? I can tell you for a fact that in 2021, women who are into getting money from guys in exchange for some sort of benefit are findings other ways to do it (onlyfans, seeking arrangement etc) and not pseudodating someone. I can also tell you that there are a lot of single doctors who have a hard time with getting dates, which shouldn't happen in a world where money and being a physician attracts gold diggers. The vast majority of the time, you still need to spike physical and also emotional attraction.
Being a surgeon doesn't give you a big one up in dating. It helps marginally. Important to know because high expectations = major disappointment later.
It's also untrue that men's looks do not matter as much. Outdated theory. A 45 year old woman can still go on a dating app and have hundreds of matches nearby. A 35 year old male will still have to work hard to have a few options here and there. And it gets even worse when that guy hits 45. Men's looks also decline, their hair falls out and they gain body fat. The last one you can control but the first two you cannot. And lack of physical attraction is a hard deal breaker for nearly all women.
Interesting. If you go on nursing forums, they have lots of threads on avoiding those in medicine for dating purposes. And the fact that these threads even exist repeatedly is pretty solid proof that it doesn't carry the status symbol it did years ago.
We have some very attractive RNs at my hospital who are obsessed with the few very good looking guys who work here (and wanting to date them). This includes a male RN, a PT and yes a resident too. On the other hand, they completely disregard the younger single surgeons who happen to be average looking.
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Wut…???
Women and men are both incredibly diverse in what they find attractive and desirable in a partner.
So you think that
1. women being attracted to financial stability is “dead” because of Onlyfans
2. wealth only becomes a factor in picking a partner when you have the wealth to instantly buy exotics cars and make multiples of what an attending makes
3. “Gold diggers” are and were never attracted to their spouses in any way
4. The only two types of relationships that exist in 2021 are either two very attractive people or well-defined sugar daddy arrangements
It’s hard to put into words how much your post hit every major incel talking point. I mean how can you unironically think that every woman who was attracted to a man’s financial success in the past decades is now the exact type of woman that wants to sell naked pictures on Onlyfans.
For you to speak so confidently about “how things really are” and then talk about dating like your only exposure to the outside world is 4chan and gym influcencers on Tiktok is…frightening.
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Wrong, there are only 2 kind of women:
1) Those that are attracted to wealth, who become sugar babies to rich old men and shoot pornography on onlyfans.
2) Those that aren't attracted to wealth, who would rather date a 6'4" chiseled homeless Chad than your pedestrianMD a$$.
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Never said that. And no one said financial stability is not an attraction point. But your argument is that women are out looking for guys to provide for them and are disregarding any and all things otherwise.
You realize women can make their own money right? Your talking point is rhetoric that women are reliant on men for survival.
In other words, financial stability is not the number one priority like you're pretending it is.
If you're looking for someone rich, you aren't going off of a probability of a decent income/wealth 8 years down the road.
Someone who would prefer to be with someone who is on the road to success is likely to do so because they happen to be likeminded. This is why people date a lot within medicine, or within law or whatever professional field they're in.
??ok
Generalizations. Or just that people have normal relationships and also have sugar daddy arrangements when they're after money. It's laughable to even suggest that a 22 year old is thinking about their potential spouse's financial status a decade later as the number one factor.
You seem confused. I'm pointing out that people who are after money will want it right now. They don't want or care about your financial status a decade later. It doesn't mean that financial stability is of 0 importance. It just means it isn't as high priority as looks/personality.
Never been on 4chan, I don't have tiktok and this is the only forum I (rarely now) post on. I would avoid making such generalizations based on out dated ideas and instead try to keep an open mind to learning.
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Totally not screwed.
1) when it comes to finding a spouse or otherwise long term committed relationship, it only takes finding one person
2) I graduated med school at 26 and was very single. I dated in med school, and while it was not the easiest thing, it wasn't impossible.
3) I was in one longer term relationship during residency (though still less than a year long), and dated several other women during that time. Left residency, still very single at age 29.
4) My 3 year fellowship was in a much larger city and despite my more feast/famine schedule (peds critical care fellowship is very intense clinical time with much more lax research time), I dated extensively during my first year (had 4 first dates in a single week one time) before meeting my future wife in fall of my 2nd year (at age 30). Married 25 months later at age 32. First baby 9 months later in a new city in my first attending job. Now have 4 kids and totally settled into life.
That said, I have medical friends and colleagues who seriously met their spouse at every conceivable life stage imaginable - from the couple that went to a school dance together as 7th graders, to high school sweethearts, to those engaged in college, dual physician couples who met in medical school, those who started dating in residency, myself finding love in fellowship, to those who didn't meet anyone until they were out as attendings. Again, ultimately it's just about finding one person.
While I don't think it's wise to make such a strong dichotomy between focusing on school/work and dating, what I can tell you is that everything comes down to priorities. If it doesn't feel like the right time, then it's not. When dating/having a relationship seems less burdensome then that's the right time. And for the right person, things will fall into place - you'll want to utilize your free time to be with that person - and they'll be understanding of your schedule and the challenges it presents. Anyone unable to recognize that your schedule is beyond your control and that will get be upset by it is not the right person. Just keep your options open.
1) when it comes to finding a spouse or otherwise long term committed relationship, it only takes finding one person
2) I graduated med school at 26 and was very single. I dated in med school, and while it was not the easiest thing, it wasn't impossible.
3) I was in one longer term relationship during residency (though still less than a year long), and dated several other women during that time. Left residency, still very single at age 29.
4) My 3 year fellowship was in a much larger city and despite my more feast/famine schedule (peds critical care fellowship is very intense clinical time with much more lax research time), I dated extensively during my first year (had 4 first dates in a single week one time) before meeting my future wife in fall of my 2nd year (at age 30). Married 25 months later at age 32. First baby 9 months later in a new city in my first attending job. Now have 4 kids and totally settled into life.
That said, I have medical friends and colleagues who seriously met their spouse at every conceivable life stage imaginable - from the couple that went to a school dance together as 7th graders, to high school sweethearts, to those engaged in college, dual physician couples who met in medical school, those who started dating in residency, myself finding love in fellowship, to those who didn't meet anyone until they were out as attendings. Again, ultimately it's just about finding one person.
While I don't think it's wise to make such a strong dichotomy between focusing on school/work and dating, what I can tell you is that everything comes down to priorities. If it doesn't feel like the right time, then it's not. When dating/having a relationship seems less burdensome then that's the right time. And for the right person, things will fall into place - you'll want to utilize your free time to be with that person - and they'll be understanding of your schedule and the challenges it presents. Anyone unable to recognize that your schedule is beyond your control and that will get be upset by it is not the right person. Just keep your options open.
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