Would you change your degree?

[FutureNavyDOc]

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You have been brainwashed.

Agreed! 👍

 

[lama]

Any more redundant than having DO's and MD's when there is no longer any major difference and when many DO students are choosing allopathic residencies over osteopathic?

When MD's were passing out strichnine and leeches for everything and DO's were doing nothing but OMT, then there was a difference and a reason for the two names. But now when less than 15% of DO's use OMM at all, MD's can be trained in OMT and we are essentially equal in the eyes of the law, what is the point besides to proove we're stubborn and we like to confuse people?

I agree...This post echo's my sentiments exactly.

The standard of care in medicine has changed dramatically since AT Still. Medicolegal issues now rule medicine. MRI's and CT's have replaced Chapman's points, etc. because EBM dictates standard of care. In this regard, Osteopathy is on the outside looking in. Real OMT research has not kept up with medicine's technology or progress. The AOA failed a long time ago to invest in EBM and is now paying the price. We have shot ourselves in the foot (or at least our leadership has) and we have no one to blame but ourselves. Some of you may say, "Screw MRI's and legal issues", but the reality is, you cant ignore these issues if you are to practice in a modern world.

Look, I really liked my first two years of medical school. My COM has an outstanding reputation for preclinical education. I would be willing to put my first and second year up against any school in the country, MD or DO. Then starts the clinical years. You start to realize the real way medicine is practiced. There were a few specific personal observations that I would point out:

1. Most DO's recieve NO OMT training after their second year.
2. Most DO's do rotations in allopathic hospitals under the training of an allopathic physician.
3. Most DO's choose to forgoe the osteopathic match and take their chances in the allopathic match.
4. Most DO's train in MD residencies. And most find this training superior to often questionable osteopathic programs.
5. Most DO's do not use any OMT in their practices. (Less than 15% use any kind of OMT)
6. Most DO's are allienated from the AOA because of their allopathic training, ie. not given practice rights in certain states because of internships or not being allowed membership in osteopathic specialty colleges.
7. Most DO's find out quickly that their MD counterparts are just as 'mind, body, spirit' as they are.
8. Most DO's have no further contact with the AOA or their societies after they are in practice.

The only reason we have survived and are allowed to practice medicine equivalently to MD's in this country is because we have ASSIMILATED to allopathic philosophies. I have no doubt that if we were hardliners, we would be in the same predicament as Chiropractors... Not able to practice medicine, surgery or prescribe medication. I repeat: The only reason we are given equal practice rights with MD's is because of our assimilation. If we truly practiced the way AT Still preached medicine, the federal government would see to it that our licenses to practice medicine were revoked. Dont get me wrong, AT was brilliant for his time, but medicine has changed and science rarely backs Osteopathy.

So with all this, I ask the question once again: If there are no differences between how we practice medicine and our allopathic bretheren, why are we separate?

 

[homeboy]

Your right, I lack the experience in medical school. However, having been a Nurse for 17 years, working along side MD's and DO's in just about every specialty from Internal Medicine to Neurosurgery gives me enough experience to make a sound judgement. In fact, I did my Nursing rotations at an Osteopathic Hospital. I have seen things change at both spectrums for the Osteopathic profession. When I entered the Healthcare profession in 1986, DO's in my city as well as the medical school (also located in the city) was considered inferior by every means. Rarely were there any joint philosophy prbut that too is changing. Things evolve...as the term evolution suggests. There is an Allopathic Neurosurgery practice in my city that 15 years ago considered DO's as substandard, now they have a DO Neurosurgeon in their practice. I can list examples like this all day. Things are changing, and I think we have to stand up for our differences, if we are to exist as an entity. We have to be better educators as well as physicians. I think AT Still did not suggest changing Medicine completely but rather the philosophy of incorporating Osteopathic Medicine within the realm of being a physician. The Osteopathic medical schools teach this and; therefore, gives the DO an opportunity to practice this training if they choose. The problem although, arises on many levels. i.e. The number of DO schools opening and filling spots with maybe not-so qualified applicants, Graduates of DO schools severing ties with the Osteopathic profession, etc.actices. Yes, there tends to be a trend leaning towards primary care...
This is just my opinion, as I'm sure I'll draw much criticism. Nevertheless, I still say NO to the poll. I chose DO, because I DID have a choice.

Have you even started medical school yet? Didn't think so. Not to cut on you for that; I'm sure youre 17 years in the nursing profession have given you valuable personal experience. But the next few years are going to be a little different than working as a nurse. Not sure how you can even vote based on your not having gone through OMM yet... Things are changing? The only thing changing is that there is a growing sentiment among students that the "DO difference" is a bunch of crap. BTW--if you want to be a neurosurgeon, your chances of getting into an AOA residency at immensely greater than an ACGME residency, only problem is there's only a few in a handful of states.
And I don't think AT Still wanted to incorporate his ideas into mainstream medicine--why else did he START HIS OWN PROFESSION?! The guy lost his children at the hands of then-modern medicine, became disillusioned, and started searching for alternatives...he went to the medical buffet and took aspects he liked from all kinds of different practices and started his own profession. He wanted his medicine to be the 'healthier' (ie. lower morbidity and mortality) alternative and disassociated himself with mainstream medicine. The only thing is, mainstream-medicine PROGRESSED; it wised up and got better over the years. DOs saw this and wanted to get back in, and for most of the early to mid part of the 20th Century, that's what they worked for. Now that we're all the way in (more or less), we're clammering to find our identity, an identity that has faded to the point of being the main talking points on student doctor network.

 

[homeboy]

I agree...This post echo's my sentiments exactly.

The standard of care in medicine has changed dramatically since AT Still. Medicolegal issues now rule medicine. MRI's and CT's have replaced Chapman's points, etc. because EBM dictates standard of care. In this regard, Osteopathy is on the outside looking in. Real OMT research has not kept up with medicine's technology or progress. The AOA failed a long time ago to invest in EBM and is now paying the price. We have shot ourselves in the foot (or at least our leadership has) and we have no one to blame but ourselves. Some of you may say, "Screw MRI's and legal issues", but the reality is, you cant ignore these issues if you are to practice in a modern world.

Look, I really liked my first two years of medical school. My COM has an outstanding reputation for preclinical education. I would be willing to put my first and second year up against any school in the country, MD or DO. Then starts the clinical years. You start to realize the real way medicine is practiced. There were a few specific personal observations that I would point out:

1. Most DO's recieve NO OMT training after their second year.
2. Most DO's do rotations in allopathic hospitals under the training of an allopathic physician.
3. Most DO's choose to forgoe the osteopathic match and take their chances in the allopathic match.
4. Most DO's train in MD residencies. And most find this training superior to often questionable osteopathic programs.
5. Most DO's do not use any OMT in their practices. (Less than 15% use any kind of OMT)
6. Most DO's are allienated from the AOA because of their allopathic training, ie. not given practice rights in certain states because of internships or not being allowed membership in osteopathic specialty colleges.
7. Most DO's find out quickly that their MD counterparts are just as 'mind, body, spirit' as they are.
8. Most DO's have no further contact with the AOA or their societies after they are in practice.

The only reason we have survived and are allowed to practice medicine equivalently to MD's in this country is because we have ASSIMILATED to allopathic philosophies. I have no doubt that if we were hardliners, we would be in the same predicament as Chiropractors... Not able to practice medicine, surgery or prescribe medication. I repeat: The only reason we are given equal practice rights with MD's in because of our Assimilation. If we truly practiced the way AT Still preached medicine, the federal government would see to it that our licenses to practice medicine were revoked. Dont get me wrong, AT was brilliant for his time, but medicine has changed and science rarely backs Osteopathy.

So with all this, I ask the question once again: If there are no differences between how we practice medicine and our allopathic bretheren, why are we separate?

Great post. We're on the same frequency.
Do we have a source for the 15% stat? I've seen it posted before, and don't doubt it's there or lower, but haven't found any stats (I usually just say "excruciatingly low").

 

[lama]

Great post. We're on the same frequency.
Do we have a source for the 15% stat? I've seen it posted before, and don't doubt it's there or lower, but haven't found any stats (I usually just say "excruciatingly low").

The JAOA did a survey a year or two ago. I will look for it and post it if I can find it.

In my mind, Osteopathy needs to get off the fence. Either we should completely assimilate with our allopathic counterparts with optional OMT fellowship training for those interested (Which wouldn't be a big change as things now stand) OR We should stop practicing medicine, surgery and prescribing medication and remain true to vision that AT taught. You cant have it both ways. So what's it going to be? Maybe I should make a poll on this topic.

 

[homeboy]

The JAOA did a survey a year or two ago. I will look for it and post it if I can find it.

In my mind, Osteopathy needs to get off the fence. Either we should completely assimilate with our allopathic counterparts (Which wouldn't be a big change as things now stand) OR We should stop practicing medicine, surgery and prescribing medicine and remain true to vision what AT taught. You cant have it both ways. So what's it going to be? Maybe I should make a poll on this topic.

Good idea. let's let this one run a little longer...we've got like 3 or 4 polls going now.

 

[dr_frog_2010]

Have you even started medical school yet? Didn't think so. Not to cut on you for that; I'm sure youre 17 years in the nursing profession have given you valuable personal experience. But the next few years are going to be a little different than working as a nurse. Not sure how you can even vote based on your not having gone through OMM yet...


Ok I see your point. I will wait next year or two to make any WELL-INFORMED decisions about the question at hand. 😕

 

[DireWolf]

There is more to DO education than just an OMM course.

I disagree.

I graduated from your school and also disagree with your statements about how OMM was incorporated into all of the classes. That is false.

 

[Megalofyia]

I disagree.

I graduated from your school and also disagree with your statements about how OMM was incorporated into all of the classes. That is false.

Which is actually ashame.. since theoretically there is more.

 

[MacGyver]

Look guys, I'm about as pro-MD and anti-DO as you can get. I think the new expansion of DO schools is a joke, I think the AOA's position on issues is a joke, I think the fact that many DO studetns want to get into MD residencies speaks badly of your profession, I think the DOs arguing that they "treat the whole patient" is a joke, I think that OMT/OMM is 95% quackery, and I think that many DO students were in fact MD rejects.

THAT BEING SAID, i'm willing to compromise with you and let you all change your degree to MD under the following conditions:

1) AOA is disbanded
2) All DO schools have to be re-accredited to meet LCME standards
3) AOA residencies are disbanded and ACGME residencies added in their place

I'm sure the AMA would allow DOs to merge under these criteria.

Unfortunately, your radical DO leaders would never hear of it. Instead of working together, they prefer outright competition. Thats why they are building new DO schools in every state. They want DOs to compete with MDs on a numbers basis and see opening hundreds of new schools as the best way to gain "equivalence" to MDs.

All of us, MDs and DOs, are going to suffer because these arrogant fools in the DO leadership are absolute buffoons. They are giving away the keys to the kingdom out of sheer spite.

 

[jawicobike]

THAT BEING SAID, i'm willing to compromise with you and let you all change your degree to MD

This is great news. I've been wondering who has the power to make this happen. Thank you for revealing yourself.

 

[allendo]

Look guys, I'm about as pro-MD and anti-DO as you can get. I think the new expansion of DO schools is a joke, I think the AOA's position on issues is a joke, I think the fact that many DO studetns want to get into MD residencies speaks badly of your profession, I think the DOs arguing that they "treat the whole patient" is a joke, I think that OMT/OMM is 95% quackery, and I think that many DO students were in fact MD rejects.

THAT BEING SAID, i'm willing to compromise with you and let you all change your degree to MD under the following conditions:

1) AOA is disbanded
2) All DO schools have to be re-accredited to meet LCME standards
3) AOA residencies are disbanded and ACGME residencies added in their place

I'm sure the AMA would allow DOs to merge under these criteria.

Unfortunately, your radical DO leaders would never hear of it. Instead of working together, they prefer outright competition. Thats why they are building new DO schools in every state. They want DOs to compete with MDs on a numbers basis and see opening hundreds of new schools as the best way to gain "equivalence" to MDs.

All of us, MDs and DOs, are going to suffer because these arrogant fools in the DO leadership are absolute buffoons. They are giving away the keys to the kingdom out of sheer spite.

douche bag

 

[jawicobike]

Looks like the thread will be closed soon, but at least we made it to 5 pages first.

 

[allendo]

Looks like the thread will be closed soon, but at least we made it to 5 pages first.

Close it b/c I can't stand people like MacGyver that think they are a born god and that all of the D.O.'s should bow down. Why the hell would you want to change your degree to the letters behind his. I'm not saying I totally agree with the AOA, OMM, etc... But there is no reason to make the degree sound like it's worthless. If you are on here questioning your degree, maybe you need to drop out of D.O. school and reapply to M.D. school. Medicine is not about status, or the letters behind your name. If you are worried about that how are you ever going to treat your patients. Wake up there are more impt things in life than two letters behind your name.

 

[FutureNavyDOc]

douche bag

Close it b/c I can't stand people like MacGyver that think they are a born god and that all of the D.O.'s should bow down. Why the hell would you want to change your degree to the letters behind his. I'm not saying I totally agree with the AOA, OMM, etc... But there is no reason to make the degree sound like it's worthless. If you are on here questioning your degree, maybe you need to drop out of D.O. school and reapply to M.D. school. Medicine is not about status, or the letters behind your name. If you are worried about that how are you ever going to treat your patients. Wake up there are more impt things in life than two letters behind your name.

More important things like calling anyone who disagrees with you a feminine hygiene product?

I also disagree with some of MacGyver's ideas and thoughts, however name calling simply proves that you are incapable of intelligent rheroric and must regress back to a 4th grade level when challenged.


I am concerned about the vast quantity of DO schools opening each year for several reasons, the main reason being that the AOA's rules and regulations on opening a new Osteopathic school are extremely vague, lenient, and light-handed.

If you have land, a plan, and the money to do so the AOA CANNOT stop you from opening an Osteopathic med school. Furthermore, they won't review the school for a prolonged period of time (I believe 4 years).

How can we claim as a profession to be equivalent to MD's when anyone can open a DO school/Diploma factory without oversight and graduate several classes of DO's before the AOA can even attempt to stop them?

Additionally, these new schools are frequently accepting subpar students into their programs to fill seats. I had a friend in undergrad who was accepted to the Florida school to be in their 1st class. Her GPA at a state school was 2.8 with a 15 MCAT and she was accepted! She had straight 5's on the MCAT and they took her in with open arms. She has failed multiple classes and is now trying to study for boards. Whenever we talk on the phone, we quiz eeach other over board related material. Last week I had to explain to her the difference between Type I and Type II Diabetes Mellitus! I don't know if this is her fault or the school's, but I believe it to be a combination of the two.

I love her to death as a friend, but there is no way she should be in med school and her GPA and MCAT told the story before she even got there.

 

[allendo]

More important things like calling anyone who disagrees with you a feminine hygiene product?

I also disagree with some of MacGyver's ideas and thoughts, however name calling simply proves that you are incapable of intelligent rheroric and must regress back to a 4th grade level when challenged.


I am concerned about the vast quantity of DO schools opening each year for several reasons, the main reason being that the AOA's rules and regulations on opening a new Osteopathic school are extremely vague, lenient, and light-handed.

If you have land, a plan, and the money to do so the AOA CANNOT stop you from opening an Osteopathic med school. Furthermore, they won't review the school for a prolonged period of time (I believe 4 years).

How can we claim as a profession to be equivalent to MD's when anyone can open a DO school/Diploma factory without oversight and graduate several classes of DO's before the AOA can even attempt to stop them?

Additionally, these new schools are frequently accepting subpar students into their programs to fill seats. I had a friend in undergrad who was accepted to the Florida school to be in their 1st class. Her GPA at a state school was 2.8 with a 15 MCAT and she was accepted! She had straight 5's on the MCAT and they took her in with open arms. She has failed multiple classes and is now trying to study for boards. Whenever we talk on the phone, we quiz eeach other over board related material. Last week I had to explain to her the difference between Type I and Type II Diabetes Mellitus! I don't know if this is her fault or the school's, but I believe it to be a combination of the two.

I love her to death as a friend, but there is no way she should be in med school and her GPA and MCAT told the story before she even got there.

Why does everyone get offended when you call someone a name. I get tired of people on these threads hiding behind their wise cracks. When I feel like saying something I say it and if you don't like it WHO CARES. Some people are douche bags and they need to be told, I'm the one to do it. Like I said there are problems with the AOA, but those of us w/ good scores and grades will be good doctors and don't need to be viewed as the scum of the medical world b/c of letters behind our name. As far as the girl w/ the low mcat, my theory is that if they accept these students and they don't have a major change in the way they study before boards, then they will fail and never b/c physicians. We can gripe all we want about letting lesser qualified candidates in school, but the boards are the great equalizers and it's the candidates money that is lost when they can't pass the boards. With that being said, maybe some of the people who end up going to the carrib who have good stats but just a bad stroke of luck will apply to these new schools. I wish I could see the AOA changing in the near future, but I don't think it will happen. Until all the old Jedi's die off, it will stay the same.

 

[Poety]

I guess my post didn't go through, but I was wondering as someone had posted earlier in this thread - is the osteopathic training really that different where theres no inpatient peds, or the same experiences as the MD's?

If so, does that worry the osteopaths with regard to experience when coming out?

 

[Taus]

I guess my post didn't go through, but I was wondering as someone had posted earlier in this thread - is the osteopathic training really that different where theres no inpatient peds, or the same experiences as the MD's?

If so, does that worry the osteopaths with regard to experience when coming out?

not sure where you're getting that from....except for generally having more rotations in primary care, our clinical education is basically identical

 

[Mixmaster]

Look guys, I'm about as pro-MD and anti-DO as you can get. I think the new expansion of DO schools is a joke, I think the AOA's position on issues is a joke, I think the fact that many DO studetns want to get into MD residencies speaks badly of your profession, I think the DOs arguing that they "treat the whole patient" is a joke, I think that OMT/OMM is 95% quackery, and I think that many DO students were in fact MD rejects.

THAT BEING SAID, i'm willing to compromise with you and let you all change your degree to MD under the following conditions:

1) AOA is disbanded
2) All DO schools have to be re-accredited to meet LCME standards
3) AOA residencies are disbanded and ACGME residencies added in their place

I'm sure the AMA would allow DOs to merge under these criteria.

Unfortunately, your radical DO leaders would never hear of it. Instead of working together, they prefer outright competition. Thats why they are building new DO schools in every state. They want DOs to compete with MDs on a numbers basis and see opening hundreds of new schools as the best way to gain "equivalence" to MDs.

All of us, MDs and DOs, are going to suffer because these arrogant fools in the DO leadership are absolute buffoons. They are giving away the keys to the kingdom out of sheer spite.

Im a D.O. and I agree with you. I wish they would just merge.

 

[homeboy]

Look guys, I'm about as pro-MD and anti-DO as you can get. I think the new expansion of DO schools is a joke, I think the AOA's position on issues is a joke, I think the fact that many DO studetns want to get into MD residencies speaks badly of your profession, I think the DOs arguing that they "treat the whole patient" is a joke, I think that OMT/OMM is 95% quackery, and I think that many DO students were in fact MD rejects.

All of us, MDs and DOs, are going to suffer because these arrogant fools in the DO leadership are absolute buffoons. They are giving away the keys to the kingdom out of sheer spite.

At the ristk of being the lone dissenter, I'll agree with everything you say, except for the 95% of OMM is quackery. I'm not a big fan of OMM and essentially don't plan on doing any (read my post history if you doubt my stance), but think there's some valid therapeutic value to some of the stuff. Unfortunately, things like cranial tarnish the entire practice IMMENSELY, and it's loudest proponents are the same ones ranting and raving about how great DOs are...how compassionate we are compared to MDs...how great a man AT Still was... Like I said earlier, why the hell would you guys (MDs) be willing to accept us when there's people out there (ie. the AOA) saying "WE'RE BETTER THAN YOU"?
I think if every single osteopathic school 'turned MD', 98% of the students wouldn't have a problem with it, and would in fact welcome it. The hard core OMMers might be disappointed, but a majority of the profession (students and practicing DOs) would be fine with it. That's a pretty big assumption, but the current dissent is so auditory it's hurting my ears. What advantages has the AOA given DOs to practice that the AMA couldn't give?
You could still do an OMM residency and practice it, but the AOA politics would be gone.
I truly don't get the AOA...it's like we're trying to walk hand-in-hand with the AMA towards the same goal, while simultaneously glancing at the crowd and pointing to ourselves..."Psst! Pick me! I'm better!" , then turning back to the MD saying, "Wow isn't great we're working side by side, together, two phsyicians, treating patients."
NavyDoc...that story of your friend in FL is really sad, and it should frustrate the hell out of anyone. That kind of stuff WOULDN'T happen under LCME accreditation.

 

[Poety]

This is the post I was referring to I highlighted it in bold - is this true for many DO programs?

Reasons for voting yes.

1. Having classmates that I wouldn't let pet my dog much less work on my spine + seeing my "allopathic" rotation partners treat pts. every bit "wholly" as I have been instructed makes me vote a big huge hellzya.

2.I am from a big time manipulation school that also happens to rope in some great clerkship opportunities. The majority of my class rotates w/allopathic students under the instruction of both mds and dos. I am grateful for this. I am receiving a clinical education that is not equal but is identical to some of the best known medical schools in the country. This follows what looks like one of the strongest pre-clinical segments in the COM system. Yet, the majority of my patients don't even know my medical school exists much less the DO on my jaket means. (please don't ask for an eye exam please don't ask for an eye exam)

3.I have taken/am taking all three steps of the USMLE and COMLEX. I am applying to only allopathic residencies because I doubt the stability of some of the AOA programs and their location sux. I will be fighting uphill to get one of these spots despite this training...all b/c of the name.

4.The DO (the title) will do nothing but hinder my future. I have already been rejected from two elective rotations b/c that is my school's identifier. (how'd Florida go for you OSU?)The allo. programs are catching on that there is a DO difference. It is called 'inconsistent competence'. I have had the painful pleasure of talking with multiple attending at my clerkship sites that marvel at the variety of accumen levels that students/interns from different programs bring to the training location. Examples=pediatric clerkships with no inpatient time, no ICU experience at all, surgery rotations at outpatient hernia clinics, psych. rotations spent in FP offices. YIKES!! The lack of oversight of the education sold by COMs will be the coffin lid for many of our reputations. The explosion of poorly supported schools will further this slow death.

5.For the reasons given above, I would do quite a lot to add MD to my name. Much like the folks in California, I would like to see a clear distinction between those programs with identical allopathic education and those that are the shoestring start-ups. The MD-O would do fine.




There is a possible pathway for students to make this happen. Anybody want to start the thread?

 

[Taus]

This is the post I was referring to I highlighted it in bold - is this true for many DO programs?

for some...I guess its possible...

for many....no

It is not hard to find out the clinical education structure of the schools you are deciding on and is definitely something to consider when making an informed choice about which school to attend.

 

[homeboy]

This is the post I was referring to I highlighted it in bold - is this true for many DO programs?

I think it's true for whatever program you're in. There's good doctors out there and bad doctors; being an MD or a DO (or student) doesn't automatically put you in one of those camps just because of your degree. Both DO school and MD school have people graduate from the bottom of the class--those people are going to have a hard time no matter what.

 

[BobaGreenTea]

Quote:
Originally Posted by OSUdoc08
There is more to DO education than just an OMM course.

I disagree.

I graduated from your school and also disagree with your statements about how OMM was incorporated into all of the classes. That is false.

🙂 🙂 😴

 

[BklynWill]

I wish I could see the AOA changing in the near future, but I don't think it will happen. Until all the old Jedi's die off, it will stay the same.

I assume you haven't seen some of the younger future AOA leadership. Don't be suprised if you have to resurrect your favorite term in a few years.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

I assume you haven't seen some of the younger future AOA leadership. Don't be suprised if you have to resurrect your favorite term in a few years.

I was thinking the exact same thing. OSUDoc and his brainwashed colleagues will fill the shoes of the AOA leadership so nothing will change.

 

[vegangirl]

Originally Posted by Mixmaster
http://www.osteopathic.org/index.cf..._edletchicagomd

That is embarrassing. Why did he mention the "...treat the whole pt not just symptoms." If I was an M.D. I would be insulted. This is exactly why the AOA needs to just give up. D.O.'s are not better (or worse). Same training. I wonder how many D.O. schools would be able to get approved by the LCME, Im sure the state schools and some others would make it seeing as though they share classes with the M.D. students.

WHat is Michigan State Osteopathic like? How many classes are shared? Anyone know?

At MSUCOM the first year classes are ALL shared with the exception of OMM, clinical skills and doctor patient relations (dpr) The shared curriculum includes anatomy, physiology, pharmacology, pathology, neuroscience, biochemistry, micro, immuno, virology, genetics. Overall I think the program is extermely beneficial since the MD/DOs co-exist and learn together

 

[Mixmaster]

I was thinking the exact same thing. OSUDoc and his brainwashed colleagues will fill the shoes of the AOA leadership so nothing will change.

What can the D.O.'s and the students do? Even in Cali in the 60's most of the D.O.'s changed. I think the same would happen now. Is there anything that the physicians/students can do to overpower the leadership since they clearly dont speak for the majority?

 

[DropkickMurphy]

What can the D.O.'s and the students do? Even in Cali in the 60's most of the D.O.'s changed. I think the same would happen now. Is there anything that the physicians/students can do to overpower the leadership since they clearly dont speak for the majority?

Form a seperate organization would be the only recourse and attempt to develop a more powerful lobbying organization, perhaps through a strategic alliance with the AMA. I'd be happy to see that happen and would be more than willing to try to facilitate that in any way I could.

In fact I would like anyone who is interested in this approach to PM me....I'd like to talk with some like-minded people about possible solutions to this issue.

 

[fuegorama]

What about a 51/2th pathway?
Taking and passing all 3 steps of the USMLE + successful completion of an ACGME residency could provide a path for those desiring dual title recognition.

I recognize this is a possibly petty goal. I would have never considered this 4 years ago when I started the application process for my program. However, since that time the AOA and the profession in general has damaged the reputation and credentials of everyone w/ the DO initials. The metastasis of new programs and the recent piss-poor decisions of the AOA leadership have made me regret my decision. There needs to be a definitive way to differentiate b/t the competent and those with questionable training.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

What about a 51/2th pathway?
Taking and passing all 3 steps of the USMLE + successful completion of an ACGME residency could provide a path for those desiring dual title recognition.

I recognize this is a possibly petty goal. I would have never considered this 4 years ago when I started the application process for my program. However, since that time the AOA and the profession in general has damaged the reputation and credentials of everyone w/ the DO initials. The metastasis of new programs and the recent piss-poor decisions of the AOA leadership have made me regret my decision. There needs to be a definitive way to differentiate b/t the competent and those with questionable training.

I agree with you 110%.

 

[OSUdoc08]

I was thinking the exact same thing. OSUDoc and his brainwashed colleagues will fill the shoes of the AOA leadership so nothing will change.

I have no desire to enter AOA leadership, and I would not be qualified anyway, since I'm entering the ACGME match.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

I have no desire to enter AOA leadership, and I would not be qualified anyway, since I'm entering the ACGME match.

Apparently then you aren't as loyal as you've led us to believe then?

 

[OSUdoc08]

I disagree.

I graduated from your school and also disagree with your statements about how OMM was incorporated into all of the classes. That is false.

Clinical Problem Solving
Clinical Skills
Health Promotion-Disease Prevention
Physiology
and
Gross Anatomy

at our school had specific lectures that integrated OMM at our school.

This may have changed since you went through these courses.

 

[DrMom]

Clinical Problem Solving
Clinical Skills
Health Promotion-Disease Prevention
Physiology
and
Gross Anatomy

at our school had specific lectures that integrated OMM at our school.

This may have changed since you went through these courses.

I have to agree with Dire Wolf. Any mention of OMM in other courses is simply in passing and not anything integral. And the curriculum hasn't changed in any significant manner.

 

[OSUdoc08]

I have to agree with Dire Wolf. Any mention of OMM in other courses is simply in passing and not anything integral. And the curriculum hasn't changed in any significant manner.

We had certain lectures in some of those courses that were just about OMM, and as you know the CPS course requires OMM in every case. We even had one case this last semester that had somatic dysfunction as the chief complaint.

 

[lama]

We had certain lectures in some of those courses that were just about OMM, and as you know the CPS course requires OMM in every case. We even had one case this last semester that had somatic dysfunction as the chief complaint.

This is hardly "EVERY" class OSUdoc. Remember when you said the following?

Yet another bitter post. You must have been one of these rejected from an MD school who used DO as a "backup."

Perhaps your osteopathic medical education is solely from your OMT course.

At my school, it is incorportated into EVERY course.

Even if you do not plan on using the techniques, you will have learned diagnostic skills to detect somatic problems that are not learned at an MD school. It should be easy for you to find musculoskeletal problems with your hands.

 

[homeboy]

Form a seperate organization would be the only recourse and attempt to develop a more powerful lobbying organization, perhaps through a strategic alliance with the AMA. I'd be happy to see that happen and would be more than willing to try to facilitate that in any way I could.

In fact I would like anyone who is interested in this approach to PM me....I'd like to talk with some like-minded people about possible solutions to this issue.

That would be an interesting route, but I fear the same would happen now as happened in the 60s. It got pretty ugly. Trust me, I'm about as "the AOA sucks" as you can be, but the transition would be more clean & valid if it originated internally. I just don't know how you 'rally' thousands of practicing DOs when half of them don't even associate with the AOA...

 

[homeboy]

That would be an interesting route, but I fear the same would happen now as happened in the 60s. It got pretty ugly. Trust me, I'm about as "the AOA sucks" as you can be, but the transition would be more clean & valid if it originated internally. I just don't know how you 'rally' thousands of practicing DOs when half of them don't even associate with the AOA...

How many of them would really care because they're comfortable in their practice and don't want risk any kind of danger in losing practice rights...the willingness to get dirty hands I fear is not high enough among practicing DOs. Even if most of them don't care about OMT, cranial, the AOA, etc...that doesn't mean most of them would want to stir things up.

 

[fuegorama]

At MSUCOM the first year classes are ALL shared with the exception of OMM, clinical skills and doctor patient relations (dpr) The shared curriculum includes anatomy, physiology, pharmacology, pathology, neuroscience, biochemistry, micro, immuno, virology, genetics. Overall I think the program is extermely beneficial since the MD/DOs co-exist and learn together

Sounds great. What about the clinical years?

 

[DrMom]

We had certain lectures in some of those courses that were just about OMM, and as you know the CPS course requires OMM in every case. We even had one case this last semester that had somatic dysfunction as the chief complaint.

Since I was a preceptor for your class' CPS groups I am well-aware that the OMM in the CPS cases is virtually always peripheral--not a significant portion of the cases. The case you're referring to was a musculoskeletal dx that certainly isn't unique to Osteopathic medicine. I never had an entire lecture related to OMM in any class other than OMM. We had some more significant mentions of OMM in clinical skills, but still not entire lectures. OMM was mentioned in passing a couple of times in a couple of other classes, which is what I was saying in my previous post.

Now, I don't think that OSU is an allopathic-like DO school, but I think you're overstating the integration of OMM into the curriculum of other courses.

 

[bigfrank]

You have been brainwashed.

Next, OSUDoc is going to starting making claims such as, "Oh Mixmaster, you're so GLIB."

Reference, anyone?

 

[fuegorama]

BF-
Are you a Hubbard fan too? Or...just one w/Matt Lauer?