Would you do it over again?

[shortnsweet]

I honestly don't know. It depends on the day you ask me.

I do wish I could have more of a life outside of veterinary medicine though. I miss being able to visit friends, go to weddings, travel, have a normal relationship.....maybe when my residency is finished and I have more than 10 days off a year?

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[Louper]

No. Little to no work/life balance; ridiculous competition between veterinary practices for clients; non-compliant/cheap clients; the "suck it up, I had to work >18 hours a day you should too" mentality; high school debt load vs low salaries; and encroachment of corporations and large group practices into veterinary medicine. If you want to get into veterinary medicine, marry rich or be a trust fund baby.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Update. I'm now just shy of two years out. 15 months after bailing on the nightmare that was my first gawd awful job. Leaving remains to be the best decision I've ever made in my adult life.

As far as GP jobs go, I can't ask for any better. I work at a multi doctor practice where I can practice low volume high quality medicine, where there is very few turnover in doctors and staff. Everyone takes pride in the work they do, and we run a pretty tight ship. My coworkers are great, and we always have at least two doctors on (and often have 4+ doctors in the building) so there's a ton of support. The staff is well trained, and I have not had any issues with negative attitudes. I get compensated very well. Im earning more now than I thought I'd ever earn. Im not overworked, and my job respects my work/life balance. I'm as happy as can be as a GP vet, and I can't imagine too many hospitals that would be an improvement to this one. It's a great fit. I am able to be the doctor I want to be with coworkers that I like working with.

And like I said before, it means the world to me that my practice backs me up. Anytime there's an issue, I have people who will listen and help me sort out if it's a me issue, a client issue, or a hospital issue. And once that's identified, people who support me 100% and help me rectify the issue. People don't get mad at me even if something was my fault. They sympathize because they know I didn't mean it, and help me come up ways to make it right (often times involving hospital resources).

But I do wonder if I may burn out at some point. I worry constantly about my cases, and it's hard to turn that switch off when I leave the building. Once I'm done for the day, I'm done as far as my job description goes. No on call or anything. And all the doctors have each other's backs so if there were any issues with my patients, I know they will be taken care of well by someone else. But I still can't shut it off. Mostly, it's the fact that I can't control clients (esp from home!) and for some reason that makes me uneasy. If clients weren't involved, I would be so much happier. It's weird because I like a vast majority of my clients. It's only maybe a couple of cases a week that makes me frustrated/angry. But somehow, those take a huge toll on me. I do pro bono work one day a week and that keeps me grounded (and a little less guilty since not that many people out there could afford to take their pet to my hospital).




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[twelvetigers]

I still wouldn't right now because it would mean going through vet school again. I was talking to a friend that graduated a few years before me and I was talking about how I was reading texts from 4th year and it was making me feel anxious, and how hearing the ringtone I used that year makes my stomach floop even today. She was like, "Yeah, that sounds like PTSD..."

Lord, I don't know how I made it through, but I could never do it again.

 

[DVMDream]

Yeah, I couldn't redo vet school again. Obviously haven't started working yet, but someone would have to pay me a **** ton of $$$$$$$ to go through vet school again. The constant expectation that you have nothing else to do but devote every waking moment (as there were very few not awake moments) to veterinary medicine and if you didn't, you were doing it wrong. Also constantly being treated as if you were a kid. The main university expecting you to have the same expenses as some 18 year old undergrad...

Vet school was not fun. There were a few moments that I was all... "yeah this is cool" but for the most part it was annoying, stressful and fourth year was just being a paying paperwork slave, with a little bit of learning tossed in. I couldn't do it again. I feel so relaxed and so happy now being away from that place. I really don't have the desire to even go back in the building. Sick of the walls, sick of the rounds rooms, sick of the stupid ring tone all the residents had... I was tempted to drown their phones for them.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I still wouldn't right now because it would mean going through vet school again. I was talking to a friend that graduated a few years before me and I was talking about how I was reading texts from 4th year and it was making me feel anxious, and how hearing the ringtone I used that year makes my stomach floop even today. She was like, "Yeah, that sounds like PTSD..."

Lord, I don't know how I made it through, but I could never do it again.

Ahahahah.

So when I came back here for my PhD, they asked me if I wanted to take occasional weekend call. I said sure, it'll keep my skills fresh while I do mostly research. So they gave me a pager, the exact same type of pager I had used as a fourth year. I was all awww, how cute and nostalgic. I set it to the same Indiana-Jones theme ringtone I had as a fourth year.

And I would literally get mini panic attacks when it would go off. Like I would feel sick to my stomach. Total emergency "PTSD". I had to change the ringtone, and then switch almost entirely to cell phone and only use the pager if I would be physically in the lab on a weekend with no service for some reason.

 

[twelvetigers]

Ahahahah.

So when I came back here for my PhD, they asked me if I wanted to take occasional weekend call. I said sure, it'll keep my skills fresh while I do mostly research. So they gave me a pager, the exact same type of pager I had used as a fourth year. I was all awww, how cute and nostalgic. I set it to the same Indian-Jones theme ringtone I had as a fourth year.

And I would literally get mini panic attacks when it would go off. Like I would feel sick to my stomach. Total emergency "PTSD". I had to change the ringtone, and then switch almost entirely to cell phone and only use the pager if I would be physically in the lab on a weekend with no service for some reason.

Awkward advice to vet students - pick the weirdest ringtone, or better yet use a custom one, maybe a song you don't even like.

I had one of the iPhone standard ones so I hear it all the time out in public.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Yeah, I couldn't redo vet school again. Obviously haven't started working yet, but someone would have to pay me a **** ton of $$$$$$$ to go through vet school again. The constant expectation that you have nothing else to do but devote every waking moment (as there were very few not awake moments) to veterinary medicine and if you didn't, you were doing it wrong. Also constantly being treated as if you were a kid. The main university expecting you to have the same expenses as some 18 year old undergrad...

Vet school was not fun. There were a few moments that I was all... "yeah this is cool" but for the most part it was annoying, stressful and fourth year was just being a paying paperwork slave, with a little bit of learning tossed in. I couldn't do it again. I feel so relaxed and so happy now being away from that place. I really don't have the desire to even go back in the building. Sick of the walls, sick of the rounds rooms, sick of the stupid ring tone all the residents had... I was tempted to drown their phones for them.

Haha, now think back to those times before vet school when you were yearning and yearning to go to vet school, and thought it was going to be so great because it was the only thing you've ever wanted to do.

The great thing is that vet school is a once in a lifetime event.


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[twelvetigers]

Haha, now think back to those times before vet school when you were yearning and yearning to go to vet school, and thought it was going to be so great because it was the only thing you've ever wanted to do.

The great thing is that vet school is a once in a lifetime event.

I remember that. So I try to forgive all the kids around here with pre-vet brain, because that was me once.

 

[DVMDream]

Haha, now think back to those times before vet school when you were yearning and yearning to go to vet school, and thought it was going to be so great because it was the only thing you've ever wanted to do.

The great thing is that vet school is a once in a lifetime event.


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Yup, was definitely a naive, enthusiastic prevet. I've seen some of my older posts and just been.....

 

[katryn]

The great thing is that vet school is a once in a lifetime event.

If someone told me right now that my degree expired and I had to go back, I'd be rapidly looking for some other profession.

That being said, I survived with my sanity, and I'm still glad I did it.

I'm almost 2 years out as well. I got lucky and landed a well fitting job right out of school. Really my only qualms are the pay (not fantastic even though cost of living is low) and that I'm not really interested in buying my boss's practices. We are multi-locational, and that feels like more than I want to take on. So long term, if I decide to own, I'll eventually have to leave. Otherwise, our practice environment sounds very similar to Minnerbelle's. I'm able to be the doctor I want to be, and still get to leave work at work when I go home to my family, and the support staff is stellar.


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[chickenlittle]

I loved vet school.

No, really... love, love, loved it. So much information to learn, so many cool people, so many cool experiences. (We DREW BLOOD on alligators at the St. Augustine Alligator Farm! In the big pond! Surrounded by gators! Who gets to do that?!?!)

Small animal GP? Not very lovable. It was great for the first five years or so, when there was still new stuff to learn and challenges on a regular basis. After 10 years, though, I am bored out of my mind and tired of the constant chaos. I feel like my work these days has a lot of urgency (five million people waiting! phone call on line 2! get pain meds together for the surgery patient! draw up these vaccines! read that fecal because all the techs are busy! ack!), but little importance. Aside from the chaos imparted by my office manager and our frequent overbooking/understaffing, it's all really easy and routine stuff that I can do mindlessly. I miss the intellectual stimulation of vet school.

I recently read a discussion or article somewhere (can't remember the details) discussing the fact that most vets hit this wall about 10 years out. Some burn out and leave the profession, some burn out and just struggle through the rest of their career waiting for retirement, and some find a way through it and end up okay with their career choice. Still waiting to see which category I'll end up in Hoping to leave the profession, but ties to my geographic area are the limiting factor. Currently focusing on seeking fulfillment outside of work and accepting that work is 'just a paycheck.' Plenty of people punch the clock every day at unfulfilling jobs, but if I can find a way to make time for volunteer work and other rewarding/giving things in my life that I can actually feel good about (vs. the discomfort I feel over our high-pressure sales environment in the clinic), I think that will help. Not an easy thing to do when you've spent a lifetime defining yourself as pre-vet/vet student/DVM, but I'm working on it.

(And yes, I'm a huge dork for loving vet school. At least I own it.)

 

[that redhead]

(And yes, I'm a huge dork for loving vet school. At least I own it.)

While I wouldn't say I loved all of school, I very much enjoyed fourth year and parts of other years mostly because I could dabble in anything and clients who brought their creatures there had pretty much acknowledged they'd be paying a lot of money but they wanted the animal fixed.

I'm almost one year out and I do find many things satisfying about my job. It isn't at all what I thought I'd be doing but I'm pretty happy with my day to day work. I've considered leaving my current place for a while, but at least right now the support and love from my fellow vets there (save the boss) is pretty priceless.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Slightly OT: Does any regret doing a post-DVM internship? It seems like, in general, students are being told to avoid those unless they're 'required.' For those that did one, would you do it over again?

 

[JaynaAli]

Slightly OT: Does any regret doing a post-DVM internship? It seems like, in general, students are being told to avoid those unless they're 'required.' For those that did one, would you do it over again?

I think internships are good for anyone. I don't regret doing it at all and in theory would do it again for the learning aspect. But in actuality, I never want to repeat this year due to the stress and low pay. I have learned so much and feel confident about my ability to handle cases which I don't think I could have had going to GP. With that said, internship is not fun most days. The horrible hours and pay are the worst part. I routinely work 80-100 hours a week and make 28,000/year. Some days I feel like I really made a difference with my patients or learned a lot, but other rotations I'm a glorified scribe. Sometimes the specialist leaves at 7 and I'm here writing records until midnight. Those days, I pretty routinely think about the fact that I could be making 2-3x more and work less hours in a GP. If I had gone straight into GP I feel like I would have struggled a bit and not done the best I now can for my patients. I really like our clinicians and have definitely learned a ton but for me, internship was a step I had to take to get a residency so I'll just get through it and move on. [63 more days!]


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[Caia]

Slightly OT: Does any regret doing a post-DVM internship? It seems like, in general, students are being told to avoid those unless they're 'required.' For those that did one, would you do it over again?

Not really directed at me but do you know why they are being told that?

Mostly because it doesn't make financial sense unless you're planning on specializing. You won't make that money back if you just go the GP route. However, there are other reasons why you might want to do one and then go into GP - essentially required for the field (eg equine), seek mentorship, more exposure, experience, etc.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Not really directed at me but do you know why they are being told that?

Mostly because it doesn't make financial sense unless you're planning on specializing. You won't make that money back if you just go the GP route. However, there are other reasons why you might want to do one and then go into GP - essentially required for the field (eg equine), seek mentorship, more exposure, experience, etc.

Well, I brought up the fact that I liked the idea of an internship as a way of still receiving some sort of mentorship right out of school. He basically said don't use an internship as a 'crutch' and only use it if it's an absolute means to an end. It's not a requirement at all in zoo med, it just might make the process go by faster. In other words, it doesn't make financial sense to do it since it's not required. Apparently there are some specialties where you really do need a internship? He did mention that, should I choose to try to match with one, that GP internships are going to be more beneficial than teaching hospital ones in most cases. I can kind of see why....our interns here get to hold instruments during surgery or work nights/24 hour days. Sounds like GP interns get to do a bit more than the grunty stuff.

 

[shortnsweet]

Slightly OT: Does any regret doing a post-DVM internship? It seems like, in general, students are being told to avoid those unless they're 'required.' For those that did one, would you do it over again?

I don't regret doing mine. I was completely burned out by the end of it. There were days and weeks when I hated all of it, but I came out a better vet.

 

[shortnsweet]

Well, I brought up the fact that I liked the idea of an internship as a way of still receiving some sort of mentorship right out of school. He basically said don't use an internship as a 'crutch' and only use it if it's an absolute means to an end. It's not a requirement at all in zoo med, it just might make the process go by faster. In other words, it doesn't make financial sense to do it since it's not required. Apparently there are some specialties where you really do need a internship? He did mention that, should I choose to try to match with one, that GP internships are going to be more beneficial than teaching hospital ones in most cases. I can kind of see why....our interns here get to hold instruments during surgery or work nights/24 hour days. Sounds like GP interns get to do a bit more than the grunty stuff.

If you want to go into zoo med--you need at least one, probably two internships---so I don't know where you are getting your information. Our current zoo intern is on her third internship. My intern mate from late year is on her second, and just got a residency.

And academia is far from all "grunt" work.

 

[katryn]

Just curious, is there anyone here who did an internship just to get experience before going into GP? If so, why did you, and what do you think it changed for you? We have two new hires that are coming to our practice from a private ER internship, and I'm really afraid they will be frustrated by some of the spiffy extras our practice lacks, and the fact that we refer anything that needs more than basic supportive care.


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[SocialStigma]

Slightly OT: Does any regret doing a post-DVM internship? It seems like, in general, students are being told to avoid those unless they're 'required.' For those that did one, would you do it over again?

I don't at all, however I had to do one because I planned on specializing. One of my current internmates is going into GP after our internship is over, she never wanted to specialize and did one for the experience and mentorship. Even if I didn't want to specialize, I think I would've still done an internship. Some of my friends who went into GP straight away don't feel comfortable with some cases (mostly emergency situations) that I now feel comfortable dealing with. The first time I've ever managed a DKA cat, tapped a chest, performed a pericardiocentesis, etc, there was always an experienced ER vet/ECC specialist around to provide guidance. Made the experience much less scary knowing I wasn't just on my own.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

Even if I didn't want to specialize, I think I would've still done an internship. Some of my friends who went into GP straight away don't feel comfortable with some cases (mostly emergency situations) that I now feel comfortable dealing with.

I didn't do an internship as I wasn't planning on a specialty (and I certainly didn't want to spend a year being overworked as a peon in the clinics), but I do want to comment on that.........I've worked with a fair number of new grads over the years, and although the few I saw who've done internships did handle various medical cases more confidently, they were no better (and I think worse) at client communication -- and I think most students and new grads don't give enough value to the importance of client communication. As an outsider, I think new grads who don't want to do a specialization would do more for their careers, long term, by starting to get practical clinical experience rather than more academic "specialty" experience. I'm sure it helps to build more confidence with medical knowledge and skills, but it delays the learning of other stuff....and that other stuff is more common and important than the DKA or the chest tap. IMO.

 

[Minnerbelle]

He did mention that, should I choose to try to match with one, that GP internships are going to be more beneficial than teaching hospital ones in most cases.

I dunno about what best to do not best to do to go into zoo, but I would absolutely NOT do a GP internship under any circumstances. Between doing a GP internship and going into practice, I would just go into practice.

At least most teaching hospital internships are good quality, and will have you rotating with quality specialists and ER docs. The problem with doing an internship like this is that you will likely be behind on your surgery/dental skills than if you went straight into practice, provided that you are trying to gain GP skills. The type of caseload you see in a GP is also different than that you see in a tertiary referral hospital.

Also, as calliopevet pointed out, there's a lot more to being a good GP vet than the medicine. That's actually a relatively small part of what makes a GP's job difficult.

There are a ton of ****ty internships out there that just want to use interns as cheap labor. The GP ones are much more likely to fall in that camp. What exactly is a GP internship going to give you that just going straight into practice at a multi-doctor hospital that has great quality of care won't? Really... Not much... Other than maybe you have someone else to blame if something goes wrong. And you get shafted in pay. There are plenty of hospitals out there that have more than one doctor on at all times so you're not alone, with other associates/bosses who are great mentors.




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[chickenlittle]

In my experience, veterinarians coming off a 1-year internship seem to maybe be VERY slightly better equipped for GP than a new grad, but not as well-equipped as a non-internship-trained doctor with one year of GP experience. Sure, prior interns can often do a great job of managing a hospitalized DKA and handling other emergency / critical care type stuff, but the reality is that they'll be expected to refer that stuff to a 24-hr clinic anyway and therefore their knowledge isn't likely to be used very often. The stuff that makes up 90% of our days (vaccines, skin, and ears) aren't things that are learned in an internship, so the docs really aren't any better at those things.

Additionally, I've seen a number of internship-trained docs who thought they wanted to go into GP, but then quickly became bored/frustrated by the fact that it is so much less mentally stimulating than their internship. Who knows, maybe those doctors would have been unhappy in GP regardless, but maybe of them went into internships with every intention of going into GP afterwards. I can't help wondering if doing an internship kind of sets them up for that disappointment... we all know that vet school medicine isn't the real world, but maybe people forget that referral hospital medicine isn't really the real world either?

 

[Minnerbelle]

I feel like with everything else in vet med, the person you are (including personality, work ethic, skills, and brains) is way more an important factor in how well you will do as a GP 1-2 years out, than whether or not you do an internship.

An internship isn't going to magically turn an incapable person into an amazing doctor. And likewise, an internship isn't going to ruin an amazing doctor and make them "less" because they wasted time in academia or whatever. That person who shined through their internship likely would have done great had they gone into practice right away, and is probably super duper after their internship. Sure, maybe they might still have a little to catch up on that is GP specific, but that person likely will bring a heck of a lot of knowledge with them to the practice that hires them. That person who's still not that great after their internship probably would have sucked hard core if they had gone straight into practice. Some people are a hot mess close to graduation and really can benefit from an extra year of instruction.

An internship is a pure necessity for many people who want to specialize.

For those who don't, I guess the question is how much is it worth to you? You want to compare how you might be after an internship to how you might be 1 year after practice. And compare the costs involved. You can't compare a new grad to someone leaving an internship. That's and apples to orange comparison.

Is learning what you might rotating through weeks of neuro, ophtho, IM, cardio, etc... where you might be responsible for a few cases per day (and often not as the primary clinician on referral cases) worth forgoing the weeks as a clinician responsible for 12-25 cases per day and learning how to juggle all that? Is the $25-30k salary worth it, when you could be making 60-100k instead? Is it worth it to be scrubbing into referral surgeries, when really as a GP, your biggest caseload/profit center might be dentistry? Is it more useful to be learning the initial care for something like an Addisonian crisis/DKA vs learning to manage and following the diabetics and other endocrinopathy animals over the course of a year as the primary care provider? Sure, it would be lovely if everyone could spend an extra year in academia learning at a capacity beyond that of a student. No doubt you will be learning a lot over the course of a year. But is the amount and content you'll learning during the year of internship worth it compared to what you'll be learning over the first year out in practice? I don't think there's a universal answer out there to that.


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[chickenlittle]

Is learning what you might rotating through weeks of neuro, ophtho, IM, cardio, etc... where you might be responsible for a few cases per day (and often not as the primary clinician on referral cases) worth forgoing the weeks as a clinician responsible for 12-25 cases per day and learning how to juggle all that? Is the $25-30k salary worth it, when you could be making 60-100k instead? Is it worth it to be scrubbing into referral surgeries, when really as a GP, your biggest caseload/profit center might be dentistry? Is it more useful to be learning the initial care for something like an Addisonian crisis/DKA vs learning to manage and following the diabetics and other endocrinopathy animals over the course of a year as the primary care provider? Sure, it would be lovely if everyone could spend an extra year in academia learning at a capacity beyond that of a student. No doubt you will be learning a lot over the course of a year. But is the amount and content you'll learning during the year of internship worth it compared to what you'll be learning over the first year out in practice? I don't think there's a universal answer out there to that.


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Thanks for saying that approximately 100x better than I could in my exhausted state last night... sort of what I was trying to get at, but your explanation is so much more articulate (I was a bit sleepy after working day 3 of a 5 day stretch, in a clinic where we average 20-22 patients/day, and then dragging myself an evening baseball game with my husband and kiddo!)

 

[Minnerbelle]

Thanks for saying that approximately 100x better than I could in my exhausted state last night... sort of what I was trying to get at, but your explanation is so much more articulate (I was a bit sleepy after working day 3 of a 5 day stretch, in a clinic where we average 20-22 patients/day, and then dragging myself an evening baseball game with my husband and kiddo!)

I totally get you. lol the 1am post for me was because I for once couldn't sleep due to sheer exhaustion (like overtired and couldn't turn my mind off). It was a long, rough week. I honestly have no idea how I will ever juggle being a vet and a mother. Now I can selfishly be married to work thanks to my very understanding fiancé.


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[pinkpuppy9]

If you want to go into zoo med--you need at least one, probably two internships---so I don't know where you are getting your information. Our current zoo intern is on her third internship. My intern mate from late year is on her second, and just got a residency.

And academia is far from all "grunt" work.

My information is coming from a boarded zoo vet, and it's also all on the ACZM website. No, you really don't need an internship. If you want to do a residency, yes, you probably do (although I know of one person who that didn't hold true for, and there could be others). However there are boarded zoo vets that didn't do either and went the experience route to qualify for taking the exam. I'm not saying that an internship isn't immensely helpful for someone trying to go down the zoo road, but definitely not needed depending on how you want to go about it. I don't know that any other specialties allow you to replace a residency with experience, but I also haven't looked into many others.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

My information is coming from a boarded zoo vet, and it's also all on the ACZM website. No, you really don't need an internship. If you want to do a residency, yes, you probably do (although I know of one person who that didn't hold true for, and there could be others). However there are boarded zoo vets that didn't do either and went the experience route to qualify for taking the exam. I'm not saying that an internship isn't immensely helpful for someone trying to go down the zoo road, but definitely not needed depending on how you want to go about it. I don't know that any other specialties allow you to replace a residency with experience, but I also haven't looked into many others.

I believe there are other specialties that accept experience in lieu of a residency, but regarding the zoo vet issue.......what might be the case is that these days you need one because of the increased competition, not that you need one because it's in the requirements?

 

[twelvetigers]

I totally get you. lol the 1am post for me was because I for once couldn't sleep due to sheer exhaustion (like overtired and couldn't turn my mind off). It was a long, rough week. I honestly have no idea how I will ever juggle being a vet and a mother. Now I can selfishly be married to work thanks to my very understanding fiancé.


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Pay them loans off and then drop to part time?

 

[chickenlittle]

I honestly have no idea how I will ever juggle being a vet and a mother. Now I can selfishly be married to work thanks to my very understanding fiancé.


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It sucks. This career was way easier pre-kid, when I didn't mind getting stuck at work late or haing such an unpredictable schedule. Hopefully I can drop to PT at some point, but right now we need my benefits and the stability that comes with FT work (part-timers are usually the first to get their hours cut).

 

[KCgophervet]

My information is coming from a boarded zoo vet, and it's also all on the ACZM website. No, you really don't need an internship. If you want to do a residency, yes, you probably do (although I know of one person who that didn't hold true for, and there could be others). However there are boarded zoo vets that didn't do either and went the experience route to qualify for taking the exam. I'm not saying that an internship isn't immensely helpful for someone trying to go down the zoo road, but definitely not needed depending on how you want to go about it. I don't know that any other specialties allow you to replace a residency with experience, but I also haven't looked into many others.

Lab animal medicine allows you to become board-eligible through experience vs. a residency. That said, I've been told it will be much much better to go the residency route since that is essentially designed (well some are) to set you up to succeed on the board exams vs you would have to negotiate that into an actual job (to take time to study, perform a research project and write a paper, etc).

 

[Minnerbelle]

Pay them loans off and then drop to part time?

Well my fiance's PhD may be even more worthless than my DVM, so if he can't find a job then I may end up the breadwinner... which is fine, but even then, I can't just be an absentee mom ya know?




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[chickenlittle]

Well my fiance's PhD may be even more worthless than my DVM, so if he can't find a job then I may end up the breadwinner... which is fine, but even then, I can't just be an absentee mom ya know?




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My husband is in ministry, so I see your breadwinner status and will raise you one... My work schedule not only makes me feel like a bad mom but, thanks to working 9-5 every other Sunday, also makes me worst preacher's wife ever Unfortunately, all of the non-Banfield clinics in my area are horrendously old-school and therefore not too appealing. So I just keep plugging away.

 

[dyachei]

My information is coming from a boarded zoo vet, and it's also all on the ACZM website. No, you really don't need an internship. If you want to do a residency, yes, you probably do (although I know of one person who that didn't hold true for, and there could be others). However there are boarded zoo vets that didn't do either and went the experience route to qualify for taking the exam. I'm not saying that an internship isn't immensely helpful for someone trying to go down the zoo road, but definitely not needed depending on how you want to go about it. I don't know that any other specialties allow you to replace a residency with experience, but I also haven't looked into many others.

It is essentially needed these days. I'm going to bet that the exceptions you have stated have been out in practice longer. So practically speaking, yes, you do need internships and a residency to be a zoo vet today. The experience route is probably not going to be around forever, either, as many vets will go the intern/resident route in the future and the others will be phased out.

 

[katryn]

I totally get you. lol the 1am post for me was because I for once couldn't sleep due to sheer exhaustion (like overtired and couldn't turn my mind off). It was a long, rough week. I honestly have no idea how I will ever juggle being a vet and a mother. Now I can selfishly be married to work thanks to my very understanding fiancé.


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It gets easier as you get used to it. And it almost forces you to 1. Get incredibly efficient with notes/busywork (which also helps make you more efficient in general) 2. Become incredibly good at saying No and taking care of yourself and 3. Leave work at work. The motto of my life is to be happy with what I did with my day, don't stress over the could haves, and get up prepared to do it all again the next day. It mostly works itself out, and my kids don't seem to hate me yet. On the other hand, there are definitely days when Hubs and I recognize that our life would be SO much easier without kids. It's a weird sort of wonderful awful.

I count my blessings that I'm totally not the breadwinner in my house, and my boss is super accommodating with scheduling around family needs.

Edit: It also occurs to me that I might have a make the best of it attitude because I started having kids during school. So I never got to experience vet med sans children.


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[pinkpuppy9]

It is essentially needed these days. I'm going to bet that the exceptions you have stated have been out in practice longer. So practically speaking, yes, you do need internships and a residency to be a zoo vet today. The experience route is probably not going to be around forever, either, as many vets will go the intern/resident route in the future and the others will be phased out.

Well yes, they've been out longer because they need those years of relevant experience to qualify. In theory, you could start your first job as a small zoo vet and qualify for boards in 6 years if you were lucky enough to start out there and get published. It would put pressure on certain schools to actually match every year if it did get phased out, though...

I really don't think it will be phased out anytime soon. Maybe not even within the next decade or so. There aren't that many ACZM diplomats considering how many vets we have in zoos and they're trying to get non-boarded zoo vets to sit for the exam now. There are plenty of zoo vets (for now, at least) that may want to become boarded in the future without quitting to start a residency. Some people actually plan on that 6 year experience route as well and don't want to do a residency. Whether or not they follow through and take the exam in the future depends on the person. The move to getting every sizable zoo staffed with a boarded vet will keep that 6-year option alive for a really long time IMO, but you never know.

 

[dyachei]

Well yes, they've been out longer because they need those years of relevant experience to qualify. In theory, you could start your first job as a small zoo vet and qualify for boards in 6 years if you were lucky enough to start out there and get published. It would put pressure on certain schools to actually match every year if it did get phased out, though...

I really don't think it will be phased out anytime soon. Maybe not even within the next decade or so. There aren't that many ACZM diplomats considering how many vets we have in zoos and they're trying to get non-boarded zoo vets to sit for the exam now. There are plenty of zoo vets (for now, at least) that may want to become boarded in the future without quitting to start a residency. Some people actually plan on that 6 year experience route as well and don't want to do a residency. Whether or not they follow through and take the exam in the future depends on the person. The move to getting every sizable zoo staffed with a boarded vet will keep that 6-year option alive for a really long time IMO, but you never know.

10 years isn't "a really long time". I think you need to be a bit more realistic in any case. You essentially do need to do an internship and residency to be a zoo vet if you graduate in the near future. Just because boards don't require them doesn't mean it can practically happen.

 

[chickenlittle]

It gets easier as you get used to it. And it almost forces you to 1. Get incredibly efficient with notes/busywork (which also helps make you more efficient in general) 2. Become incredibly good at saying No and taking care of yourself and 3. Leave work at work. The motto of my life is to be happy with what I did with my day, don't stress over the could haves, and get up prepared to do it all again the next day. It mostly works itself out, and my kids don't seem to hate me yet. On the other hand, there are definitely days when Hubs and I recognize that our life would be SO much easier without kids. It's a weird sort of wonderful awful.

I count my blessings that I'm totally not the breadwinner in my house, and my boss is super accommodating with scheduling around family needs.

Edit: It also occurs to me that I might have a make the best of it attitude because I started having kids during school. So I never got to experience vet med sans children.


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If your boss is accommodating, I'm sure that makes a HUGE difference. My current schedule is more or less as follows: three weekdays per week scheduled from 9am-7pm (typically finishing between 7:30-8pm, because we overbook and tend to fall behind and we also are required to accept walk-ins right up until closing) and every other weekend scheduled Saturday & Sunday from 9-5 (typically finishing between 5:30-6pm).

The number of hours is no problem and I really am not finding myself stuck at work ridiculously far past the end of my shift. The problems are:

a) When those hours are scheduled. Not a huge deal right now, because my kiddo is only 3.5 years old and not in school yet. I keep her home from daycare on my weekdays off. Once she starts school in just over a year, though, she'll be at school Monday-Friday and I'll be working every other weekend. Family time will be kind of a rarity and I'll miss activities as she becomes more involved in those.

Also, she doesn't go to daycare until 8:45-9am most days right now (my husband takes her, so she's still awake when I get home at night and okay with a 9pm bedtime. Once she starts school, though, her days will start earlier and therefore bedtime will be earlier. So I'll see her in the mornings, 2 weeknights/wk, and every other weekend? No way. I'll definitely have to change jobs when she starts school, if I even make it that long.

b) The complete lack of flexibility. Like every vet job, sick days are mostly nonexistent - whether it's for myself or a kiddo. Leaving an hour early, coming in an hour late, etc... all of those things are nearly impossible. (In the last year, I left work an hour early ONCE for my kid's daycare Christmas play and it was a huge, big surprise that I was able to do that. I've worked with a fever on multiple occasions because I'm not allowed to take the day off unless coverage can be found, and sometimes there's no one to cover.) Vacation days are typically granted without issue, but must be requested ~3 months in advance.... so when little things come up (like daycare events, etc) it's a total crapshoot whether I'll be able to attend.

All of that was no big deal before my kiddo came along, but is a lot more challenging these days. I expect that it'll only get harder as she gets older and gets involved in more things.

If your boss is family-friendly, I'm ridiculously envious. I thought that I had found an employer like that once... then they started to suspect that I was pregnant (I wasn't) and doing things to run me off so that they wouldn't have to deal with a pregnant doctor. Yep, really.

 

[Minnerbelle]

It gets easier as you get used to it. And it almost forces you to 1. Get incredibly efficient with notes/busywork (which also helps make you more efficient in general) 2. Become incredibly good at saying No and taking care of yourself and 3. Leave work at work. The motto of my life is to be happy with what I did with my day, don't stress over the could haves, and get up prepared to do it all again the next day. It mostly works itself out, and my kids don't seem to hate me yet. On the other hand, there are definitely days when Hubs and I recognize that our life would be SO much easier without kids. It's a weird sort of wonderful awful.

I count my blessings that I'm totally not the breadwinner in my house, and my boss is super accommodating with scheduling around family needs.

Edit: It also occurs to me that I might have a make the best of it attitude because I started having kids during school. So I never got to experience vet med sans children.


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I think a lot of it is that I am the younger one without obligations, so it's so easy for me to say, "don't worry I'll take care of it!" so that no one else has to. You know, all the annoying things that don't necessarily pertain to care of your patients but someone has to deal with. All the ridiculous client requests I comply with.

The patients I do this extra thing and that extra thing with while they're staying with is for the day or whatever because there's the opportunity (rather than just finishing my notes and whatnot).

I guess I just have to draw the line and do the essentials first when it comes to it, and so what you've got to do. But it's hard to break the habit.


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[katryn]

Yikes Chickenlittle, that does sound rough. I agree, it's somewhat easier with smaller kids. Two of my weekdays right now are 11a-7p, and I'm already worried about having to jump ship if I can't change things up once the kiddos start school in a few years (they are 3.5 and 1.5).


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[Rainheart]

Thanks for this thread; this 1000% solidifies that I definitely do NOT want to do an internship and will be seeking a small animal GP job next year. One more year, one more year!

 

[jmo1012]

I love my internship and wouldnt change doing one for anything. That said, I went into with the thought that I would likely specialize, so it was a necessity for that. Yes the days are long, not every day is fun, and the pay is terrible, but I honestly cannot imagine doing something different. Also, for those who plan to just go straight into GP, I urge you to find away to get some extra time in ER medicine, because it will be your fault when you refer the critically ill pneumo or hemoabdomen or hypoglycemic patient or whatever, and it DIES en route because you did not intervene due to lack of comfort. I cannot stress this enough, it happens every week. Yes, it's scary when you dont deal with it all the time. But giving that fluid bolus or tapping that chest can save a life (even if the owners elect euthanasia later). Vet school often does a terrible job preparing you to handle this, but its a major must.

I often wish that I could be happier with a more laid back career and lifestyle. I find myself curious about and jealous of all those people who work 40 hours a week and live happy, fulfilled lives. what that must be like. not worrying about life and death. not worrying about decisions made, both by myself and my clients. did i make the right call.

I'm curious to see what happens to me when this becomes a job rather than a way of life (vet school, internship, residency, masters - these are all ways of life given the huge emotional, financial, and time commitments required). Maybe if I settle down and have a family I will feel differently, but I worry that I will just drift from one sink to the next. who knows.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

because it will be your fault when you refer the critically ill pneumo or hemoabdomen or hypoglycemic patient or whatever, and it DIES en route because you did not intervene due to lack of comfort.

NO!

Not doing something you are not trained or qualified to do does not place the blame on you. Absolutely not, and don't even try to lay that guilt trip on someone. That's like saying someone is responsible for the death of a child that dies in a fire because they called 911 instead of rushing in to get the child, or instead of turning their garden hose on the flames to try and put them out.

 

[jmo1012]

NO!

Not doing something you are not trained or qualified to do does not place the blame on you. Absolutely not, and don't even try to lay that guilt trip on someone. That's like saying someone is responsible for the death of a child that dies in a fire because they called 911 instead of rushing in to get the child, or instead of turning their garden hose on the flames to try and put them out.

If you have an active veterinary license, you are considered qualified and it is up to you to keep those skills available. You are comparing a lay person without any tools or training (don't tell me you don't keep needles or dextrose, etc in your hospital) to someone who was trained and licensed to perform those tasks. We aren't even crossing species.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

If you have an active veterinary license, you are considered qualified and it is up to you to keep those skills available. You are comparing a lay person without any tools or training (don't tell me you don't keep needles or dextrose, etc in your hospital) to someone who was trained and licensed to perform those tasks. We aren't even crossing species.

I've been under the impression that if an emergency walks into your door, you're legally obligated to treat, even if you're not an emergency clinic. Wrong?

Also, meanwhile...in the past week alone, I've been told a ton of stories by practicing vets about how they've essentially led to the demise of an animal by being pressured into doing something they weren't trained for/qualified for. Damned if you do, damned if you don't I guess.

 

[Coquette22]

I've been under the impression that if an emergency walks into your door, you're legally obligated to treat, even if you're not an emergency clinic. Wrong?

Depends on your defintion of "treat". You are obligated to offer critical treatment - ie pain meds, fluids, or euthanasia. You are not legally obligated to undergo a complete treatment plan.

I'd also add that for some of us, going directly into GP IS getting some ER exposure. Our nearest 24/7 emergency center is 5 hours away. If an emergency happens, we're it.

 

[Minnerbelle]

It's not that uncommon for me to tap a chest, or initiate shock therapy, or mannitol head trauma cases that look ****ed neurologically, and whatever for true emergency cases before sending to a referral facility. So it's not that I don't agree that a GP shouldn't stabilize critical patients. I do it regularly and it's gratifying when those patients make it. But I think jmo is being a tad too bit condescending above. That's the attitude that creates resentment between the "ivory tower" and those in the trenches.

I had a tamponade case last year in a facility that did not have an ultrasound. The dog was in serious trouble. I gave the owners a choice of euthanasia, or me blindly sticking and potentially killing patient in the process (to live long enough to go and get worked up for a likely poor prognosis anyway), or the owners driving down to the ER and the dog might not make it there. Owners drove down to the ER and the dog coded and died just as he got there. I would be beyond furious if the ER vet blamed me in any way shape or form for being the "non-internship trained dvm" who should have done more.

But like honestly, if 20 min was going to make the difference between life/death, then that animal was ****ed, and that's not on me.


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[CalliopeDVM]

If you have an active veterinary license, you are considered qualified and it is up to you to keep those skills available. You are comparing a lay person without any tools or training (don't tell me you don't keep needles or dextrose, etc in your hospital) to someone who was trained and licensed to perform those tasks. We aren't even crossing species.

"Those skills" does not encompass the entirety of veterinary medicine. There will be some things you are qualified and trained to do, and some things you are not. I could have used the example of an EMT calling 911 instead of running into the fire, or I could use the example of an equine vet faced with a cat collapsed from DKA. My point is still that there will always be things we are licensed to do (and learned to do, years ago) that we are not able to do competently, let alone well. Especially once we have been in limited practice for a few years -- and although there isn't a specialty for a general practitioner, it is focused as that of any specialist, from behaviourists to theriogenologists. And within general practice it is also often limited by species, or circumstance.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

I've been under the impression that if an emergency walks into your door, you're legally obligated to treat, even if you're not an emergency clinic. Wrong?

Also, meanwhile...in the past week alone, I've been told a ton of stories by practicing vets about how they've essentially led to the demise of an animal by being pressured into doing something they weren't trained for/qualified for. Damned if you do, damned if you don't I guess.

That depends on your jurisdiction, but often you are required to minimally stabilize and offer temporary relief (i.e. hemostasis and analgesia at least, possibly also something like stopping an active seizure) until a decision for care or euthanasia is made.