Would you give up a DO acceptance to do an SMP and re-apply MD?

[lacesoutdan]

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I might try a DO route because I think i can pull a respectiable Step1/2 or COMPLEX score.

COMLEX

 

[cliquesh]

The average DO student does score lower than the average MD student on the USMLE. In 2005, 93% of US/Canadian MD students passed the Step 1 on the first try compared to 70% of DO students and 67% of FMG students. However, it may be that the DO students who did well on the USMLE are the ones who apply for allopathic residencies. Therefore that specific group of DO students might not necessarily have lower scores as a whole.

That's essential what i want to know.

 

[gasapple]

How is it flawed? MD students, on average, are probably better students than DO, for whatever reason. But this has nothing to do with my question. I was just asking if DO with equivlent stats are getting denied positions primiarly because of their degrees. If this is not the case, and DO's are getting rejected because of their sub-par stats, then I might try a DO route because I think i can pull a respectiable Step1/2 or COMPLEX score.

Well, I'm not sure on that last sentence you pose above. It's pretty damn competitive at all levels but I think the playing field levels off after the admissions bottleneck, I guess that was the point I was trying to make initially. If I go that route, I'm plan on owning the Comlex and USMLE Step I to the best of my ability. You're right, that's a good plan for whatever reason.

 

[gasapple]

The average DO student does score lower than the average MD student on the USMLE. In 2005, 93% of US/Canadian MD students passed the Step 1 on the first try compared to 70% of DO students and 67% of FMG students. However, it may be that the DO students who did well on the USMLE are the ones who apply for allopathic residencies. Therefore that specific group of DO students might not necessarily have lower scores as a whole.

Yea, there are reasons for this trend and it's discussed a lot in these forums. There's a consensus that a majority of DO students don't put equal effort into the two boards becasue they know they can fall back on AOA residencies. Most DO student effort goes into the COMLEX and then the USMLE isn't taken as seriously by some because they've already scored well on the COMLEX and can match into a good residency. There are other reasons but that's the critical factor I gathered from the discussions. The pool of DO students who choose to self-prepare for the USMLE is signifcantly smaller as well.

You hit the nail on the head in your last couple sentences. You've probably read the same posts to which I refer.

 

[gasapple]

To answer the OP again - I resoundingly answer NO! (my vote)

If you can't live without the allopathic route then I'd improve that MCAT (if you think it will make you adequately more competitve) before wasting time on the less-valued (compared to MCAT) SMPs according to adcom deans.

 

[Lokhtar]

The average DO student does score lower than the average MD student on the USMLE. In 2005, 93% of US/Canadian MD students passed the Step 1 on the first try compared to 70% of DO students and 67% of FMG students. However, it may be that the DO students who did well on the USMLE are the ones who apply for allopathic residencies. Therefore that specific group of DO students might not necessarily have lower scores as a whole.

Um, because they have to study for two tests instead of one? And one stresses certain subjects more than the other? If USMD students had to take the COMLEX as well, I'd bet more of them would fail that than USDO students.

 

[iambored]

My girlfriend just got accepted to a DO program and told me about Studentdoctor.net. I am a lawyer in two states. I am bored at this second so I decided to do a little web surfing during lunch. I can tell you that I have met both good doctors and bad doctors throughout my life. My advice would be worry about being a good doctor and stop worrying about your initials. There are both MD's and DO's that get sued for malpractice. People's life are in your hands. Take the DO and study your *** off because theres more important issues then the letters.

 

[Kthanksbye]

My girlfriend just got accepted to a DO program and told me about Studentdoctor.net. I am a lawyer in two states. I am bored at this second so I decided to do a little web surfing during lunch. I can tell you that I have met both good doctors and bad doctors throughout my life. My advice would be worry about being a good doctor and stop worrying about your initials. There are both MD's and DO's that get sued for malpractice. People's life are in your hands. Take the DO and study your *** off because theres more important issues then the letters.

I generally agree, but am uncomfortable with how close this comes to saying that getting sued for malpractice equals being a bad doctor. A lawyer may think so, but most physicians will get sued by them during their careers, and some multiple times, regardless of the quality of their care. This does not mean that most doctors are bad doctors. It speaks more to the broken malpractice system.

 

[lacesoutdan]

Um, because they have to study for two tests instead of one?

I don't know. Maybe. Do you think residency directors take this into consideration when looking at USMLE scores for a DO applicant? Probably not.

If USMD students had to take the COMLEX as well, I'd bet more of them would fail that than USDO students.

No way to know. Obviously it would be tougher to study simultanioulsy for two tests. However, the difference is the COMLEX tests OMM (I think) while the USMLE tests subjects that both types of students are supposedly trained equally in.

 

[Lokhtar]

No way to know. Obviously it would be tougher to study simultanioulsy for two tests.

Yup.

Maybe. Do you think residency directors take this into consideration when looking at USMLE scores for a DO applicant? Probably not.

Of course they don't. I'm giving a reason why it could be lower, not commenting on whether its fair or not.

However, the difference is the COMLEX tests OMM (I think) while the USMLE tests subjects that both types of students are supposedly trained equally in.

Not really. The focus is different. Officially, COMLEX and USMLE test on the same thing (except OMM), but they stress different things. When you're studying for COMLEX, biochemistry is low-yield, so you don't pay as much attention to it. While if you're studying for USMLE, you wouldn't stress parasitology or immunology as much as you would for the COMLEX.

 

[abefromann]

If you're not the typical MD candidate, absolutely take the DO. There is essentially no difference once you're done with residency and you could wind up never getting that MD. There are DOs that I am friends with in DERMATOLOGY, even.

 

[abefromann]

Not really. The focus is different. Officially, COMLEX and USMLE test on the same thing (except OMM), but they stress different things. When you're studying for COMLEX, biochemistry is low-yield, so you don't pay as much attention to it. While if you're studying for USMLE, you wouldn't stress parasitology or immunology as much as you would for the COMLEX.

Actually I don't know where you're getting your info but there was a sh*tload of immunology on USMLE. But the tests are essentially the same from what I've heard.

 

[Gut Shot]

How the heck do you know they are not going to open up new residency spots...

I don't, but I'll defer to the generalized concept of inertia in such matters. If a plan to do X has not been announced, it is not unsafe to assume that X is not being planned. It is, however, very unsafe to assume that X is being planned yet for some unknown reason remains shrouded in mystery.

For instance, I don't know that David Lynch isn't planning on remaking The Black Hole. Should I therefore assume that he is?

 

[Gut Shot]

Did any one also consider that the 68.8% match rate includes those people who might have applied to the AOA match and successfully matched and therefore have to withdraw from acgme programs, meaning they would show up in your data as unmatched.

No, that 68.8% reflects active applicants, i.e. those who did not withdraw and did submit a rank list.

 

[Gut Shot]

There are DOs that I am friends with in DERMATOLOGY, even.

Really? How many?

 

[167649]

I generally agree, but am uncomfortable with how close this comes to saying that getting sued for malpractice equals being a bad doctor. A lawyer may think so, but most physicians will get sued by them during their careers, and some multiple times, regardless of the quality of their care. This does not mean that most doctors are bad doctors. It speaks more to the broken malpractice system.

Don't forget that view came from an attorney. What did you expect?


😉

 

[167649]

I don't, but I'll defer to the generalized concept of inertia in such matters. If a plan to do X has not been announced, it is not unsafe to assume that X is not being planned. It is, however, very unsafe to assume that X is being planned yet for some unknown reason remains shrouded in mystery.

For instance, I don't know that David Lynch isn't planning on remaking The Black Hole. Should I therefore assume that he is?

The recessive state of our economy ensures that no new programs are in planning at the moment. For MS's and academic medical centers, a large amount of whom are already in the financial hole right now, the last thing they are going to do is expand training slots.

 

[fireflygirl]

I'm a bit late to this forum but wanted to add in some personal experience. When I first started my post-bac, I didn't know much about DO and just assumed that since my father was an MD, that that was the route I was going to go. And my parents had a bit of a bias towards MD as well that shaped my stigma towards DO. As I got through the post-bac, I started to learn more about it and became more interested in the osteo philosophy and route. But at the end of the day, I really wanted the MD simply because I never wanted to feel like there were any closed doors to me - meaning that while I don't know what type of residency I want, should I choose surgery or orthopedics, I didn't want any closed doors simply because of the last 2 letters behind my name. But after talking with numerous DO students and fully fledged docs, I realised that while there may be some challenges that are unique to the field, at the end of the day my clinical evals and my USMLE and/or COMLEX scores are going to count the most if I choose to do an allo residency. That made me more comfortable, especially after the kind of application cycle I've experienced.

After taking the MCAT twice and scoring miserably on both, I realised that perhaps there was something about the exam that just didn't work with me. I scored a 1400+ on the SATs so I know that it wasn't just standardized testing; but the test got to the best of me, and I knew simply taking it again and again wasn't going to help me. In addition, I am going into my 4th year as a post-bac; I had been an english and business major and so it took me a long time to get through my pre-reqs and work to pay for the post-bac in the process. Nonetheless, I have spent a lot of time here preparing for med school while I watch my friends in other fields progress and move on. My boyfriend is in the IT/CompSci world too so it's sometimes hard for me to watch him and other friends move up the ladder and progress in their careers while I essentially repeated my undergrad just so that I could START med school.

So for me, I've realised that my MCAT score is holding me back from an allo school. I have had numerous conversations with some allo school directors and all of them are impressed with my application and would offer me an interview if that MCAT score wasn't there. And while it has been a huge blow to my ego and my self-esteem, I have looked at the fact that I have gotten into great DO schools as an opporunity to move on with my life and pursue the career I've always wanted. My patients are going to judge me by my ability to be there for them both as a physician and confidant, not by two letters behind my name. Going the DO route for me is just an alternative to becomign a doc. I would not give up my DO acceptances just so that I could take the MCAT again and MAYBE get a better score and MAYBE get an interview at an allo school. And after being in a post bac for nearly four years, I don't think it's worth giving up another year just for maybes. Instead I'm very excited by the arrival of my welcome binder from PCOM and am both anxious and thrilled to start down the path that I've sacrificed and worked so hard to get to.

 

[PlAnEjaNe]

Interesting point. I would like to add that it is certainly ironic how such a large majority of pre-meds express an interest in DERM, RADS, ANESTESHIA before they have ever had any type of exposure to those specialties. Do you think it has to do with them picking from a chart like this?

http://www.cejkasearch.com/compensation/amga_physician_compensation_survey.htm

Sure it does. So to be honest I have no sympathy for the majority of the students that are so hell bent on matching these super competitive residency. If you are so disgusted by primary care then why did you become a doctor?

In some cases it makes sense to me. Ex: if you really want to be surgeon. A friend of mine (that I already mentioned in this thread) told me he would cut his d*ck off if he had to go into primary care. Guess what? It looks like he might be di*kless soon, but we dont know yet. It is his fault for going to med school in the first place. There is no gaurantee of derm, rads, or anes. I dont mean to put those specialties down but in a too extreme point of view 'dont go to med school because your goal in life is to be rich and lazy'.

BTW- I am a hardcore capitalist; i just like to see people be successful for the right reasons.

I agree with this because it seems to be a pervasive issue among most pre-meds (especially the young ones). I will give another example:

I am shadowing a physician (you need a physician letter of rec for some D.O. schools) and another pre-med happens to be there that day and we got to talking because he is applying this cycle (no luck tho) and I asked him what he was interested in blah blah blah and it got to a point in the conversation where I asked him if he would be happy doing anything else other than the thing he wanted to do (a surgery sub-specialty) and he flat out said 'no'...WTF??? 😕

In my view...why the hell even bother applying to med-school in the first place if all you want to do is that ONE thing in the vast field that medicine is?? This is like applying to be the lettuce washer at the burger joint and telling yourself you would not be happy being anything else other than the CEO. Why bother?! In my opinion it shows a high level of immaturity and pretentiousness. This guy is too immature to realize that life doesn't always work out the way you plan and you need to be honest with yourself and ask the question 'will I be happy if..' and then objectively evaluate from there if you are really interested in medicine, or the idea of medicine. The pretentiousness stems from the fact that he (and the other premeds that think along these lines) absolutely thinks he is the exception to the rule, a prodigy if you will, and that he is 'entitled' to that specialty.....Ummm, no you're not, you have to EARN IT just like everyone else, no one is going to say, "Ohhhh, PlAnEjaNe, you are just such an amazing person we don't care what your gpa/mcat/usmle/comlex scores are....of course you can have this derm/anes/surgery/optho/whatever residency slot!!!"


I think these kids need a freakin' reality check and I really really hope that adcoms can see right through this because if they don't we are going to have a lot A) unhappy primary care docs, or B) a lot of unethical primary care docs that will do anything for the extra $$

OK...well, that's my $.02..off of my soapbox.


-PlAnEjaNe

 

[Tamburlaine]

Embrace what osteopathic medical philosophy has to offer its inquirers and students!

OK, I can understand being torn between the two--in other words, pursuing the DO route with your nose tightly clipped between your fingers. You've encountered some prejudice, you've got an MD in the family sending those bad vibes your way.

But now, you will, god willing, become a DO. Embrace it. You're education will be different, and you will be around practioners who are more primary care focused. It's OK--in fact, I think it's a great thing. They're people who think hard about patients and the most appropriate way to treat them, given all the available tools. Plus, you'll be taught how the musculoskeletal system can be used to relieve patients of different sorts of pain. A.T. Still--not the myth, the guy who though up osteopathy--was very suspicious of overeliance on meds. Now, wholesale denial of the usefulness of meds is, of course, criminal, but remembering that some disorders, such as--but of course--lower back pain can be treated without meds. Also, physical diagnosis is a very important tool because it allows the physician to figure out which tests to order. Lastly, primary care is not a latrine to pee in, or snipe at, as 3/4 of med students like to do--no doubt with a tear driping down their cheek as their vision of a jet-black convertible mercedes turns into a jetta--but the soul of the medical system. And our primary care here in the US is among the worst of advanced nations. Primary care is an art and science all its own, and osteopathic medicine is based on it. It's a different approach to med education that can potentially give you more tools as a primary care doc and give you a deeper connection to patients. Embrace it, don't tolerate it.

 

[lex]

Hey guys,
Please don't flame me for asking this question, because I truly believe MD=DO, but it IS harder to gain entry into a super-competitive allo specialty with a DO as opposed to MD.
This is NOT an MD vs. DO thread and I'm posting it here because I want opinions from those who are leaning towards the MD.
I was speaking to my physician and I mentioned that I am considering going to osteopathic school. After telling him about my personal statistics, he basically advised me to do an SMP and re-apply to MD schools because he thought I was a borderline candidate at this point and if I applied to schools after an SMP I would probably have a good chance to gain entry into an allo school.

Here's the thing: I graduated 1 year ago so taking an extra yr off would put me a little more behind. I really want to start my career but at the same time I really want a good shot at some of the more competitive specialties.

So do you think I should risk it with the SMP?

I would take the DO acceptance over SMP. SMP <> doctor, DO=DOCTOR!!!
If I were you, I would not waste my time and money any more. Just concentrate on Step 1 and COMLEX now. Besides, DO=MD.