Would you have gone to an MD school if you were accepted into one?

[MedPR]

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There is a russian doctor by my house who is a DO, Facial Plastic Surgery + ENT. That is pretty impressive (if you are into that, I am not). Just wanted to give hope to those interested in very competitive residencies. Going DO does NOT mean you are not competitive enough for those hard-to-get residencies.

Your n=1 situation doesn't mean that going DO does not mean you are not competitive for those hard-to-get residencies. This is a constant problem on SDN. People think that because they can think up an an example, or a handful of examples, they have established a rule.

I don't know any MD Plastics/ENT. Does that mean that MD students aren't competitive since I can't name a single one of them that has made it into such a residency?

 

[Dr.TurkandJD]

Your n=1 situation doesn't mean that going DO does not mean you are not competitive for those hard-to-get residencies. This is a constant problem on SDN. People think that because they can think up an an example, or a handful of examples, they have established a rule.

I don't know any MD Plastics/ENT. Does that mean that MD students aren't competitive since I can't name a single one of them that has made it into such a residency?

There are no rules, the process is a crapshoot and we all know this. However, Plastics/ENT is a very hard specialty regardless of MD or DO.

 

[MedPR]

There are no rules, the process is a crapshoot and we all know this. However, Plastics/ENT is a very hard specialty regardless of MD or DO.

Idk about that. I think it's pretty established that the heiriarchy of competitiveness goes something like USMD>USDO>US resident FMG > IMG. Very similar to the rule that 4.00/43 is more competitive for MD than 3.00/30 is.

 

[Dr.TurkandJD]

Idk about that. I think it's pretty established that the heiriarchy of competitiveness goes something like USMD>USDO>US resident FMG > IMG.

As long as there are US DOs in the super competitive specialties, it just shows its possible with hard work and dedication. You don't see too many IMG's in those specialties. I know a bunch of IMG's, most are Internists/FM.

 

[SpecterGT260]

There are no rules, the process is a crapshoot and we all know this. However, Plastics/ENT is a very hard specialty regardless of MD or DO.

That is true, but according to the NRMP, those with high step1 scores had a very high success rate matching. You can't look at it and go "its competitive, and very few people go there, so....... " Comparatively there are almost no DOs that match these programs in the ACGME. Yes, it is tough for both. It is significantly tougher for DOs.

 

[MedPR]

As long as there are US DOs in the super competitive specialties, it just shows its possible with hard work and dedication. You don't see too many IMG's in those specialties. I know a bunch of IMG's, most are Internists/FM.

Right, but until the relative amount of DOs (percent match vs apply) is equal or about equal to that of MDs, it is not accurate to say DOs are as competitive as MDs in those fields.

 

[HalfListic]

Wait, did we just figure out that ACGME favors MDs?

Woah

Does that mean that AOA favors DOs?


This. Is. Groundbreaking.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Wait, did we just figure out that ACGME favors MDs?

Woah

Does that mean that AOA favors DOs?


This. Is. Groundbreaking.

You say that, but there are those who simply refuse to acknowledge it. According to some people the ACGME are self-loathing and prefer DOs for most things because of their demeanor and magic hands Never mind the glaringly obvious statement of "people tend to favor their own", no because since they are doctors they are also all ridiculously exceptional human beings who are devoid of emotion, pettiness, or anything that normal people have 👍

I think that hits the major pre-med stereotypical views around here..... Did I miss any?

 

[HalfListic]

You say that, but there are those who simply refuse to acknowledge it. According to some people the ACGME are self-loathing and prefer DOs for most things because of their demeanor and magic hands Never mind the glaringly obvious statement of "people tend to favor their own", no because since they are doctors they are also all ridiculously exceptional human beings who are devoid of emotion, pettiness, or anything that normal people have 👍

I think that hits the major pre-med stereotypical views around here..... Did I miss any?

Haha

Well, studies do show that all MDs are socially awkward bio-bots. And DOs are smooth talking warlocks.

Can't argue with 'the studies' and such

 

[SpecterGT260]

Quite. Studies have indeed found that.

 

[MedPR]

Haha

Well, studies do show that all MDs are socially awkward bio-bots. And DOs are smooth talking warlocks.

Can't argue with 'the studies' and such

I thought DOs were Hodor? 😕

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

 

[Ost3oclast]

I thought DOs were Hodor? 😕

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

Short answer......yes.

 

[deleted480308]

Order of priority...
1. Md school I live next to (wife can keep job)
2. Md schools in state (thank you God for florida with 6 others, in state tuition)
3. The two DO schools in state (wife's state retirement still builds if she gets hired there)
4. Any other DO school nationwide that will talk to me because if I get turned down by the 7 MD schools in my state, I am not MD competitive.

I get the MD advantage but would just be honored to go anywhere and be a doctor

 

[docnotsopc]

So am I, but yet I still sucked on my MCAT 👎

Why did you assume that the doc I was talking about is a She? Just wondering!

haha I didnt even realize i referred to that person as a "she". I have no idea what gender that person is

 

[AmicaVera]

I didn't even apply MD. 3.7GPA/31 MCAT, published research and above average ECs, including employment in a clinical setting.

I had the program director of the top state school trying to get me to apply, since I'd known her from shadowing. However, sitting in on a med school class there really did it for me. The students were very privileged and not at all curious about medicine as a practice. I couldn't imagine spending the next four years of my life in that environment. The school also has a history of sending many, many students into academic medicine and sub-specialization, and I think it has a very weak primary care curriculum. When I sat in at a local DO school and shadowed a few DO's, it was like night and day.

I'm not saying that the DO path is superior, but it was certainly a much better fit for me. There may be amazing MD schools around, but none in my home state. I would much rather be a happy DO than a miserable MD.

 

[touchpause13]

I have a feeling that for a lot of people location is more important what letters are going to be after your name

 

[ModernAlchemist]

I didn't even apply MD. 3.7GPA/31 MCAT, published research and above average ECs, including employment in a clinical setting.

I had the program director of the top state school trying to get me to apply, since I'd known her from shadowing. However, sitting in on a med school class there really did it for me. The students were very privileged and not at all curious about medicine as a practice. I couldn't imagine spending the next four years of my life in that environment. The school also has a history of sending many, many students into academic medicine and sub-specialization, and I think it has a very weak primary care curriculum. When I sat in at a local DO school and shadowed a few DO's, it was like night and day.

I'm not saying that the DO path is superior, but it was certainly a much better fit for me. There may be amazing MD schools around, but none in my home state. I would much rather be a happy DO than a miserable MD.

This.

I compare school to school, not MD to DO.

 

[ToldYouSo]

You realize that 3.6/30 isn't that competitive for MD schools right?

Yes; I feel that if I applied broadly enough I'd be able to get into at least 1 though.

 

[docnotsopc]

haha says the pre-meds. Wait until you start taking system courses (cardio, resp, renal, neuro) and you come to realize that you like one of these specialties. Or you realize you love dissecting the brain and decide you are interested in neurosurgery. Or you realize you are super interested in cancer treatment etc

Imagine you fall in love with a specialty only to realize that you stand no chance at getting into that specialty because of your letters.

I got news for you kiddos. Many pre-meds say "i just want to be a doctor, I would be fine with being a family physician'' (I said this) until you fall in love with some kind of specialty or start to get driven by money (this happens to many students when they see that they owe hundreds of thousands of dollars)

The point is that as a pre-med you know very little about anything medical (how a practice works, the hours put into studying during med school, or the specialties themselves). Shadowing or knowing someone in a certain specialty means nothing. You are not the same person as them. You think you know what you would be happy going into. You think you will never be driven by money. If you have the chance to go MD over DO, and location doesn't matter.... you would be a fool to go DO

 

[touchpause13]

haha says the pre-meds. Wait until you start taking system courses (cardio, resp, renal, neuro) and you come to realize that you like one of these specialties. Or you realize you love dissecting the brain and decide you are interested in neurosurgery. Or you realize you are super interested in cancer treatment etc

Imagine you fall in love with a specialty only to realize that you stand no chance at getting into that specialty because of your letters.

I got news for you kiddos. Many pre-meds say "i just want to be a doctor, I would be fine with being a family physician'' (I said this) until you fall in love with some kind of specialty or start to get driven by money (this happens to many students when they see that they owe hundreds of thousands of dollars)

The point is that as a pre-med you know very little about anything medical (how a practice works, the hours put into studying during med school, or the specialties themselves). Shadowing or knowing someone in a certain specialty means nothing. You are not the same person as them. You think you know what you would be happy going into. You think you will never be driven by money. If you have the chance to go MD over DO, and location doesn't matter.... you would be a fool to go DO

 

[Fivo]

haha says the pre-meds. Wait until you start taking system courses (cardio, resp, renal, neuro) and you come to realize that you like one of these specialties. Or you realize you love dissecting the brain and decide you are interested in neurosurgery. Or you realize you are super interested in cancer treatment etc

Imagine you fall in love with a specialty only to realize that you stand no chance at getting into that specialty because of your letters.

I got news for you kiddos. Many pre-meds say "i just want to be a doctor, I would be fine with being a family physician'' (I said this) until you fall in love with some kind of specialty or start to get driven by money (this happens to many students when they see that they owe hundreds of thousands of dollars)

The point is that as a pre-med you know very little about anything medical (how a practice works, the hours put into studying during med school, or the specialties themselves). Shadowing or knowing someone in a certain specialty means nothing. You are not the same person as them. You think you know what you would be happy going into. You think you will never be driven by money. If you have the chance to go MD over DO, and location doesn't matter.... you would be a fool to go DO

 

[MedPR]

:beer:

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

 

[cabinbuilder]

Can someone please tell me how you guys insert the pictures and movies into your posts?? I can't figure it out.

 

[ModernAlchemist]

Can someone please tell me how you guys insert the pictures and movies into your posts?? I can't figure it out.

Click the picture of the mountains in the toolbar above the text box you type in when you post. Then you can insert a url of the picture.

 

[MedPR]

Can someone please tell me how you guys insert the pictures and movies into your posts?? I can't figure it out.

Type [ img ] and [ / img ] around your pic url. Take out spaces.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

 

[cabinbuilder]

Click the picture of the mountains in the toolbar above the text box you type in when you post. Then you can insert a url of the picture.

Ok, I have tried that many times. I guess I just keep trying.

 

[MedPR]

Ok, I have tried that many times. I guess I just keep trying.

You need the right to file type as well. The thing you put must end in something like gif, jpeg, or bmp.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

 

[darklabel]

haha says the pre-meds. Wait until you start taking system courses (cardio, resp, renal, neuro) and you come to realize that you like one of these specialties. Or you realize you love dissecting the brain and decide you are interested in neurosurgery. Or you realize you are super interested in cancer treatment etc

Imagine you fall in love with a specialty only to realize that you stand no chance at getting into that specialty because of your letters.

I got news for you kiddos. Many pre-meds say "i just want to be a doctor, I would be fine with being a family physician'' (I said this) until you fall in love with some kind of specialty or start to get driven by money (this happens to many students when they see that they owe hundreds of thousands of dollars)

The point is that as a pre-med you know very little about anything medical (how a practice works, the hours put into studying during med school, or the specialties themselves). Shadowing or knowing someone in a certain specialty means nothing. You are not the same person as them. You think you know what you would be happy going into. You think you will never be driven by money. If you have the chance to go MD over DO, and location doesn't matter.... you would be a fool to go DO

I whole-heartedly agree with this statement (except the part about money). Most people won't notice the last two letters (i.e. patients) but come match time everyone will and it will suck if what you love isn't FM/Peds/IM (possibly others, but main ones) and you're average (average in med school, lol).

As for money, I have no remorse for people in it for the money. Maybe once I'm in I'll think differently and you have experience about this more than I do but seriously, picking a specialty solely based on money is a little ridiculous. You should definitely do what you love and DO may or may not get you there. Besides even FM makes a cool 6 figure salary (albiet on the lower end) and Obamacare seems to be leaning towards cheaping FMs over Specialties. Yes the debt sounds soul-crushing (250k+ is a lot) but you don't have to be in medical school to understand how loans work and how you can pay it little while enjoying life (perusing the FM forum, it seems like they are doing fine).

But you're right, barring special circumstances you should ALWAYS go US MD if available to you. I'll be giving it a go, but if I don't get in anywhere but DO, I can at least say I tried.

 

[n3xa]

Got accepted and didn't go for a wide variety of reasons.

The getting shut out of a specialty just wasn't enough for me.

 

[SLC]

haha says the pre-meds. Wait until you start taking system courses (cardio, resp, renal, neuro) and you come to realize that you like one of these specialties. Or you realize you love dissecting the brain and decide you are interested in neurosurgery. Or you realize you are super interested in cancer treatment etc

Imagine you fall in love with a specialty only to realize that you stand no chance at getting into that specialty because of your letters.

I got news for you kiddos. Many pre-meds say "i just want to be a doctor, I would be fine with being a family physician'' (I said this) until you fall in love with some kind of specialty or start to get driven by money (this happens to many students when they see that they owe hundreds of thousands of dollars)

The point is that as a pre-med you know very little about anything medical (how a practice works, the hours put into studying during med school, or the specialties themselves). Shadowing or knowing someone in a certain specialty means nothing. You are not the same person as them. You think you know what you would be happy going into. You think you will never be driven by money. If you have the chance to go MD over DO, and location doesn't matter.... you would be a fool to go DO

There's an old saying that I think applies here: "Men who are unhappy, like men who sleep poorly, always seem proud of the fact."

What is it with this "can't do" attitude? Didn't you beat some pretty huge odds just to freakin' get to where you are today? And now you're ready to throw in the towel and quite trying because of what you think you know about becoming a specialist?

And did you really just lecture all the pre-meds about knowing very little because they haven't started med-school yet? Let's take that tactic and turn it around to ask you when was the last time you attempted to match into residency?

Yeah, didn't think so.

 

[cabinbuilder]

Wow, the delusions of granduer is just getting bigger by the minute from these pre-meds. Nice to know that my salary is on the "low end" and I can tell you I sure don't make a measley 150K. Pretty nice that I have patients who come to see me because they threw their back out and don't want to have to take pills since I can generally fix the problem with manipulation.

Yes, folks, my DO degree just really sucks and I wonder why I even bothered? Will be interesting to see the attitude change in 5 years. Amazing.

 

[darklabel]

Wow, the delusions of granduer is just getting bigger by the minute from these pre-meds. Nice to know that my salary is on the "low end" and I can tell you I sure don't make a measley 150K. Pretty nice that I have patients who come to see me because they threw their back out and don't want to have to take pills since I can generally fix the problem with manipulation.

Yes, folks, my DO degree just really sucks and I wonder why I even bothered? Will be interesting to see the attitude change in 5 years. Amazing.

"In 2012, radiologists and orthopedic surgeons topped the list at $315,000, followed by cardiologists ($314,000), anesthesiologists ($309,000), and urologists ($309,000). Previously, radiologists and orthopedic surgeons led the pack, at a mean income of $350,000 each, followed by anesthesiologists and cardiologists (both at $325,000). The bottom-earning specialties in 2012's survey were pediatrics, family medicine, and internal medicine."
Source: http://www.medscape.com/features/slideshow/compensation/2012/public

I never said DO is inferior to MD and I never said FM is inferior to other specialties and I was in fact protecting it. Yeah I'm simply a pre-med and its nice you're making a lot more than 150k, but I'm just going by averages since as internet strangers I don't know every person's circumstances.

I'm just saying (since this is our future here), we should look at what exactly we're getting ourselves into before we do anything. As most medical students (or previous medical students such as yourself) say, you don't know what you want to do until you're in medical school. But, what if while I'm in medical school I fall in love with surgery and come time to match, I will have a harder (maybe almost impossible) time than my MD counterpart (with comparable stats) simply because I went to a DO school instead of an MD school.

I hope one day the bias goes away but it is there and I am simply stating what it is. I meant no offense and as you say, I am a lowly pre-med who know's almost nothing (but I am trying to learn).

 

[cabinbuilder]

"In 2012, radiologists and orthopedic surgeons topped the list at $315,000, followed by cardiologists ($314,000), anesthesiologists ($309,000), and urologists ($309,000). Previously, radiologists and orthopedic surgeons led the pack, at a mean income of $350,000 each, followed by anesthesiologists and cardiologists (both at $325,000). The bottom-earning specialties in 2012's survey were pediatrics, family medicine, and internal medicine."
Source: http://www.medscape.com/features/slideshow/compensation/2012/public
I can tell you I'm right in the pack with the urologist
I never said DO is inferior to MD and I never said FM is inferior to other specialties and I was in fact protecting it. Yeah I'm simply a pre-med and its nice you're making a lot more than 150k, but I'm just going by averages since as internet strangers I don't know every person's circumstances.
I never said you said that
I'm just saying (since this is our future here), we should look at what exactly we're getting ourselves into before we do anything. As most medical students (or previous medical students such as yourself) say, you don't know what you want to do until you're in medical school. But, what if while I'm in medical school I fall in love with surgery and come time to match, I will have a harder (maybe almost impossible) time than my MD counterpart (with comparable stats) simply because I went to a DO school instead of an MD school. What you need to realize is that medicine changes every year. There are plenty of DO surgoens and I just think it's sad that the fallacy is still being perpetuated by pre-meds that surgery is unobtainable as a DO, it just isn't true.

I hope one day the bias goes away but it is there and I am simply stating what it is. I meant no offense and as you say, I am a lowly pre-med who know's almost nothing (but I am trying to learn).Bias only remains by those who wish it to. I personally am not offended. I could care less really. My goal is to provide hope and reality to those who want to go into medicine and negate alot of the negativity perpetuated by those who have not made the journey yet.

 

[darklabel]

Well you truly are an inspiration for me. (while lurking, I saw one of your posts about how you made it through and it really is something)

Anyways, you're right. Let me first get there, wait out 4 years, pick something and we'll just see what happens. A lot can change (including bias) in the years ahead. But right now, I'll be happy just being called a doctor 😍

 

[cabinbuilder]

Well you truly are an inspiration for me. (while lurking, I saw one of your posts about how you made it through and it really is something)

Anyways, you're right. Let me first get there, wait out 4 years, pick something and we'll just see what happens. A lot can change (including bias) in the years ahead. But right now, I'll be happy just being called a doctor 😍

FWIW, here is a list of DO surgeons who graduated in my class at LECOM. Shane Hodge was in my anatomy disection group and is a general surgeon. Jeff Litt was one of my OMM partners and still is a good friend to this day. He is a general surgeon too.


Christina C Clemow, DO
Surgery Jacksonville, FL


Duangnapa S Cuddy, DO
Surgery Far Rockaway, NY


Shane M Hodge, DO
Surgery North Wilkesboro, NC


Jeffrey S Litt, DO
Surgery York, PA
Chief Resident

Russell L Mcelveen, DO
Surgery Jackson, MS


Justin J Nork, DO
Surgery Portsmouth, VA


Cheryl K Six, DO
Surgery Pittsburgh, PA


Julie T Sofer, DO
Surgery Farmington Hills, MI


Melvin R Stjernholm, DO
Surgery Massillon, OH


Jared C Storck, DO
Surgery Beachwood, OH



Thanks for the kind words.Work with what you can control and deal with what you can't. It usually works out how it's supposed to.

 

[touchpause13]

can't access that site w/o a username and password

 

[cabinbuilder]

can't access that site w/o a username and password

Sorry, I pasted the list above.

 

[HalfListic]

Can someone please tell me how you guys insert the pictures and movies into your posts?? I can't figure it out.

The real trick is ti make sure you are saving the image address, and not the image. So, right click a picture, select copy image address and then you can either type in the commands that MedPR listed, or simply click the photo icon when you are posing and past the image address onto that box.

Sounds more confusing than it is...

 

[DrWily]

Just saying, I'mma be a dermatologist. Just u wait.

 

[MedPR]

FWIW, here is a list of DO surgeons who graduated in my class at LECOM. Shane Hodge was in my anatomy disection group and is a general surgeon. Jeff Litt was one of my OMM partners and still is a good friend to this day. He is a general surgeon too.


Christina C Clemow, DO
Surgery Jacksonville, FL


Duangnapa S Cuddy, DO
Surgery Far Rockaway, NY


Shane M Hodge, DO
Surgery North Wilkesboro, NC


Jeffrey S Litt, DO
Surgery York, PA
Chief Resident

Russell L Mcelveen, DO
Surgery Jackson, MS


Justin J Nork, DO
Surgery Portsmouth, VA


Cheryl K Six, DO
Surgery Pittsburgh, PA


Julie T Sofer, DO
Surgery Farmington Hills, MI


Melvin R Stjernholm, DO
Surgery Massillon, OH


Jared C Storck, DO
Surgery Beachwood, OH



Thanks for the kind words.Work with what you can control and deal with what you can't. It usually works out how it's supposed to.

Perhaps you didn't mean it this way, but I think that's what the majority of people are saying in this thread. Go MD if you can and avoid whatever DO bias there is even if the amount of DO bias is minimal. Nobody is saying "MD or quit".

 

[cabinbuilder]

The real trick is ti make sure you are saving the image address, and not the image. So, right click a picture, select copy image address and then you can either type in the commands that MedPR listed, or simply click the photo icon when you are posing and past the image address onto that box.

Sounds more confusing than it is...

Cool thanks.

 

[MedPR]

The real trick is ti make sure you are saving the image address, and not the image. So, right click a picture, select copy image address and then you can either type in the commands that MedPR listed, or simply click the photo icon when you are posing and past the image address onto that box.

Sounds more confusing than it is...

The only reason I type the tags is I use different forums and many of them have a different icon setup. So it's easier for me to type the tags (same on all forums) than to always search for the button.

 

[cabinbuilder]

Perhaps you didn't mean it this way, but I think that's what the majority of people are saying in this thread. Go MD if you can and avoid whatever DO bias there is even if the amount of DO bias is minimal. Nobody is saying "MD or quit".

OMG, I was NOT saying to go MD if you can. My point is to work with what you are given, use the opportunity to get where you want to be and don't obsess about things out of your control. Be the doctor you want to be because in the end the letters behind your name don't really matter if you are happy in your career.

 

[CopToEM]

I chose DO because I'm older and there are four osteopathic schools roughly equidistant from my hometown. Had there been an MD school closer than the 4 DO schools I would have probably chosen that school. Being close to home mattered more to me than being at an MD school. I knew about the additional hurdles and accepted them.

So, for me, no. Odds are it would not have made a difference.

 

[Fivo]

i chose do because i'm older and there are four osteopathic schools roughly equidistant from my hometown. had there been an md school closer than the 4 do schools i would have probably chosen that school. Being close to home mattered more to me than being at an md school. I knew about the additional hurdles and accepted them.

so, for me, no. odds are it would not have made a difference.

wat?

 

[ToldYouSo]

wat?

He would not have gone to a MD school if accepted into one because there are in fact no MD schools closer to him than the 4 DO schools he mentioned. It was just a hypothetical what if.

 

[n3xa]

And did you really just lecture all the pre-meds about knowing very little because they haven't started med-school yet? Let's take that tactic and turn it around to ask you when was the last time you attempted to match into residency?

Yeah, didn't think so.

Well, he has a point.

 

[MedPR]

See I still don't get it. This is what I get, and empty box with an X. Sigh...... I did the copy shortcut. Is that not correct?

It's because you didn't copy an image file. Go to that link, right click it, and select "copy image URL". Then come back to SDN, click on the image button, and hit ctrl+v on your keyboard.

 

[SpecterGT260]

FB pictures don't imbed to my knowledge.

 

[Fivo]

FB pictures don't imbed to my knowledge.

They do, as long as the url contains the .jpg

The image Cabinbuilder tried to display