Would you pay to get rid of mandatory attendance?

[Med Ed]

A big issue for me is that the school is forcing me to be at the school at certain inflexible times. I probably listen to 10% of lectures and just ignore it and do my work but the school deciding that at 8 am on this Tuesday I HAVE to be there is childish and bull**** at minimum. If I want to study at 5 am so I have the afternoon off to do something I should absolutely be able to do so. It's insane and goes against what we know works at good schools. Every time my school does something, I think "does the local great MD school that?' The answers in invariable hell no. It's like DO schools only see what other DO schools are doing and evaluate against that.

What types of resources are available before lecture? The presenter’s slides? A syllabus? Reading assignments? Or do you just have to go in cold?

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[Neopolymath]

What types of resources are available before lecture? The presenter’s slides? A syllabus? Reading assignments? Or do you just have to go in cold?

This school usually has some assigned reading that isn't useful and sometimes the slides are posted beforehand depending on the professor. The best way to learn at this school is like most schools: ignore lectures until right before exam to pick up points from minutae. The problem is solely based on making everyone be there with no flexibility. didactic should be the most flexible year of your life in all honesty.

 

[Med Ed]

This school usually has some assigned reading that isn't useful and sometimes the slides are posted beforehand depending on the professor. The best way to learn at this school is like most schools: ignore lectures until right before exam to pick up points from minutae. The problem is solely based on making everyone be there with no flexibility. didactic should be the most flexible year of your life in all honesty.

That sucks. My only advice is to try and pre-study something before class, which may help you extract anything useful from the time investment.

 

[Jack Package]

I'd be wary of a mandatory attendance school, although it does suck that often times you need to be on campus for labs and such anyway. I wish that all of that was consolidated into just 1 day to avoid needless travel

 

[thatguy23]

Awesome replies, I see your guys points. BUT why do some schools that have mandatory attendance have good board scores and pass rates some better than those schools w/o mandatory attendance? For example is it still worth it not to have mandatory attendance when CUSOM has 97% pass rate level 1 vs WVSOM 86.5%? also with 20% at CUSOM scoring very high (I forget the actual number maybe above 600?).

Would you still pay in this case? keeping in mind CUSOM is 80% mandatory attendance w/ 1/2 day on Friday.
Both schools give 6-8 weeks board prep time.

 

[thatguy23]

Look at match list, go to the one with better match list or average step scores

CUSOM better pass rate and I believe average scores as well. Match lists are similar

 

[thatguy23]

Do people actually fail because of mandatory attendance or because of other factors like laziness/procrastination...?And what do you say of CUSOM which a school with mandatory attendance and actually is doing great. It's one of the schools with the highest board scores and 100% placement rate every year.



This is interesting. Seems like something is right

 

[fldoctorgirl]

Awesome replies, I see your guys points. BUT why do some schools that have mandatory attendance have good board scores and pass rates some better than those schools w/o mandatory attendance? For example is it still worth it not to have mandatory attendance when CUSOM has 97% pass rate level 1 vs WVSOM 86.5%? also with 20% at CUSOM scoring very high (I forget the actual number maybe above 600?).

Would you still pay in this case? keeping in mind CUSOM is 80% mandatory attendance w/ 1/2 day on Friday.
Both schools give 6-8 weeks board prep time.

You shouldn't be trying to compare mandatory attendance vs. board scores. They're two pretty separate problems. The board scores are a reflection of the curriculum and perhaps the students, not the attendance policy. You need to just look at your desire for mandatory or non-mandatory attendance and weigh that against board passage rates, not try to correlate them with each other.

 

[831929]

CUSOM better pass rate and I believe average scores as well. Match lists are similar

If they're pretty similar, then go with the one that has been around longer. More likely than that people will know the name of the school when you apply for residency. If that's about equal, well 10k a year adds up quick. I'd go with the cheaper one

 

[831929]

Oh wait didn't see how big of a pass rate difference that was. Definitely go with the one that's 97%.

 

[Neopolymath]

For most people, attendance is about it taking twice as long to go through material and having no flexibility in your day. Most people won't fail with mandatory attendance. They will and do perform suboptimally. They have less time to actually study. It's a no brainer.

 

[Goro]

Awesome replies, I see your guys points. BUT why do some schools that have mandatory attendance have good board scores and pass rates some better than those schools w/o mandatory attendance? For example is it still worth it not to have mandatory attendance when CUSOM has 97% pass rate level 1 vs WVSOM 86.5%? also with 20% at CUSOM scoring very high (I forget the actual number maybe above 600?).

Would you still pay in this case? keeping in mind CUSOM is 80% mandatory attendance w/ 1/2 day on Friday.
Both schools give 6-8 weeks board prep time.

Correlation does not equal causation. It may be that WVSOM has a weaker applicant pool that CUSOM.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Correlation does not equal causation. It may be that WVSOM has a weaker applicant pool that CUSOM.

I would add that WVSOM has all their pass rates up and their actual attrition rates as well. WVSOM is probably getting more people through the program than CUSOM. And I still haven't seen it addressed about WVSOM letting you become instate after a year. They would be much cheaper if that was still the case.

 

[Ho0v-man]

I would add that WVSOM has all their pass rates up and their actual attrition rates as well. WVSOM is probably getting more people through the program than CUSOM. And I still haven't seen it addressed about WVSOM letting you become instate after a year. They would be much cheaper if that was still the case.

Pretty sure you’re oos all 4 years. If you get instate after 1st year then I drastically misunderstood the situation and need to go hit myself in the face w a brick.

 

[Goro]

I would add that WVSOM has all their pass rates up and their actual attrition rates as well. WVSOM is probably getting more people through the program than CUSOM. And I still haven't seen it addressed about WVSOM letting you become instate after a year. They would be much cheaper if that was still the case.

Don't know about attrition rates, but the past five years of first time pass rates isn't great:

West Virginia School of Osteopathic Medicine (WVSOM)

86.4 (5 yr)

87.1 (class of 18)
86.4 (class of 17)
91.1 (class of 16)
84 (class of 15)
83.4 (class of 14)

 

[Espressso]

Don't know about attrition rates, but the past five years of first time pass rates isn't great:

West Virginia School of Osteopathic Medicine (WVSOM)

86.4 (5 yr)

87.1 (class of 18)
86.4 (class of 17)
91.1 (class of 16)
84 (class of 15)
83.4 (class of 14)

It's really bad. It was even lower for this past year (c/o 2020)
And they don't give you in-state tuition if you start out-of-state.

Personally, as an OOS student, I would take the mandatory and lower tuition. I'm of the camp that graduating debt is one of the biggest factors. The education can be made up for by putting in more work and networking more than others. But if you're coming out of school with 500k in debt, you're shackled way more than any mandatory lectures, any clinical rotations, etc.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

It's really bad. It was even lower for this past year (c/o 2020)
And they don't give you in-state tuition if you start out-of-state.

Personally, as an OOS student, I would take the mandatory and lower tuition. I'm of the camp that graduating debt is one of the biggest factors. The education can be made up for by putting in more work and networking more than others. But if you're coming out of school with 500k in debt, you're shackled way more than any mandatory lectures, any clinical rotations, etc.

My point exactly. Which is why I really don't get the comments on this thread. Like I said earlier in most cases, I would have preferred non-mandatory attendance, but I think CUSOM is the better school here, and that's the one I would chose in this situation. Not only you graduate with less debt, the curriculum is solid, and you're almost guaranteed a residency spots graduating out CUSOM because the school has done an amazing job opening its own GME network in North Carolina. CUSOM was one of the schools I would have preferred to go last application cycle, but unfortunately I didn't get an acceptance out of my interview there.

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[Goro]

CUSOM got rid of that policy. They allow students to wear headphones during lecture now; it's a blessing. I sit towards the back of the lecture hall and either listen to the previous days lectures at 2x speed or do ANKI. I could watch Youtube videos for 4 hours straight if I wanted to.

As for my thoughts on mandatory attendance, as someone who absolutely despised the idea of it before starting my OMS-I - sure there are some days where I resent mandatory attendance, but those days are becoming fewer and further between. Honestly, I am probably more productive sitting in class and working independently than I would be at home. I treat the 4-5 hours daily that I'm in class as grind time and try to knock out the large majority of studying for the day. It's essentially as if I'm going to the library every morning.

But this is something that doesn't get talked about enough with mandatory attendance - the social aspect of it. I see my classmates for hours everyday, and have developed several really great friendships from it. I'm fairly confident these friendships wouldn't exist if I weren't forced to come to class. My class as a whole feels really bonded and close to one another. This might be the case at non mandatory attendance schools, but for me at least mandatory attendance has made my medical school social life much more enjoyable because of the relationships I have developed.

All in all, maybe I'm drinking the Kool-Aid but mandatory attendance hasn't been nearly as bad as I was expecting it to be. Especially when you are permitted to skip 20% of lectures on days where you feel like sleeping in or just don't want to come to class.

All good to know!

 

[Espressso]

My point exactly. Which is why I really don't get the comments on this thread. Like I said earlier in most cases, I would have preferred non-mandatory attendance, but I think CUSOM is the better school here, and that's the one I would chose in this situation. Not only you graduate with less debt, the curriculum is solid, and you're almost guaranteed a residency spots graduating out CUSOM because the school has done an amazing job opening its own GME network in North Carolina. CUSOM was one of the schools I would have preferred to go last application cycle, but unfortunately I didn't get an acceptance out of my interview there.

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But you have to understand that many students don't feel the same way about student loans and debt. A lot of students I know here at my school take out max loans each year because they like the extra spending money for trips and random purchases. They are far from conservative with their spending. Max loans at my school is likt $85k/year. So it really depends on the person.

Personally, I tend to go to class and just crank out other work if the lecture doesn't require my attention. If it does, then hey, there's a pass through the material, while others skip class and wait for the recording to pop up. I just hate feeling behind, and when I tried to skip classes for a month last year, I felt behind the entire month. But again, it's up to each person.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

CUSOM got rid of that policy. They allow students to wear headphones during lecture now; it's a blessing. I sit towards the back of the lecture hall and either listen to the previous days lectures at 2x speed or do ANKI. I could watch Youtube videos for 4 hours straight if I wanted to.

As for my thoughts on mandatory attendance, as someone who absolutely despised the idea of it before starting my OMS-I - sure there are some days where I resent mandatory attendance, but those days are becoming fewer and further between. Honestly, I am probably more productive sitting in class and working independently than I would be at home. I treat the 4-5 hours daily that I'm in class as grind time and try to knock out the large majority of studying for the day. It's essentially as if I'm going to the library every morning.

But this is something that doesn't get talked about enough with mandatory attendance - the social aspect of it. I see my classmates for hours everyday, and have developed several really great friendships from it. I'm fairly confident these friendships wouldn't exist if I weren't forced to come to class. My class as a whole feels really bonded and close to one another. This might be the case at non mandatory attendance schools, but for me at least mandatory attendance has made my medical school social life much more enjoyable because of the relationships I have developed.

All in all, maybe I'm drinking the Kool-Aid but mandatory attendance hasn't been nearly as bad as I was expecting it to be. Especially when you are permitted to skip 20% of lectures on days where you feel like sleeping in or just don't want to come to class.

I think it's just a personal thing. I still physically go into school almost every day-- I study in the study rooms all day and only go to whatever's required. If you can sit in the back and wear headphones and do whatever you want, that's an entirely different story and changes things a bit. A lot of schools don't allow this. Also, for me it was also about flexibility in my life. I like that I have the option to schedule trips home that might overlap with "school days", but when nothing is required it's not an issue for me to miss.