Would you rather be pre-dental?

[deleted407021]

I think it would take the same amount of time or shorter to just go to dental school than it would to go RN->NP->dentistry specialization or PA->dentistry specialization due to the lack of a residency requirement for dentists, and dentists already have low work hours and high pay.

Perhaps, and medicine has a larger mid-level population with the NPs, DNPs and PAs, whereas dentistry - I'm assuming - has only hygienists.

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[jeffk805dent]

what buffoon wants to be a dentist.

 

[fancymylotus]

what buffoon wants to be a dentist.

Right?

 

[WonderGrill]

Read this thread and then any thread along the lines of "Why do you want to be a doctor?"

"OMG, I don't want to be a doctor because of money or prestige! I want to help people XD *insert BS story about how medicine changed their lives* I just want to make a difference in the world haha XD"

 

[GiveMeThatMD]

Okay, I was looking for a more advance answer than that. You pretty much just said because your ego is too big. Dentist= Doctor of Dental Surgery or Doctor of Medicine in Dentistry. Both positions are doctors.

I do not believe any medical school would accept you upon answering "why medicine" with "I want to be a doctor", unless admissions are significantly easier than I would imagine.

Well... not quite. Doctor of Medicine =/= Doctor of Dentistry. Both are Doctors, yes, but not even close to the same. The similarities they do share is the drive/passion for the specific areas of expertise. Most people that run the MD route are striving toward a VERY specific goal/specialty in mind. Don't get me wrong by this, but dentistry is dentistry. It's great and all, but MD opens up a trillion doors beyond that.

 

[Frychicken]

Okay, I was looking for a more advance answer than that. You pretty much just said because your ego is too big. Dentist= Doctor of Dental Surgery or Doctor of Medicine in Dentistry. Both positions are doctors.

Well... not quite. Doctor of Medicine =/= Doctor of Dentistry. Both are Doctors, yes, but not even close to the same.

I hate to digress from this scintillating topic, but just to ensure that we all become well-informed healthcare professionals of tomorrow, the DDS degree is Doctor of Dental Surgery and DMD is Doctor of Dental Medicine. Apologies for being nitpicky, carry on.

 

[avgn]

Read this thread and then any thread along the lines of "Why do you want to be a doctor?"

"OMG, I don't want to be a doctor because of money or prestige! I want to help people XD *insert BS story about how medicine changed their lives* I just want to make a difference in the world haha XD"

Look man it's ok if you can't handle true hard science courses and need to resort to the "baby" version of prereqs (as per your prior thread). You can always go DO if MD doesn't work out for you.
No need to say the same things over and over and over again. You think most premeds are in it for the prestige. We get it, and no one cares. Let's move on with our lives now.

 

[Grapesongrapes]

Actually dentist>doctor.

 

[partypantss]

Actually dentist>doctor.

Troll Spotted.

EDIT: Mods want to get rid of this guy? He is clearly trolling, bumping up threads from 15 years ago for no reason and just generally being obnoxious.

EDIT #2: Wow, that was quick. Thanks mods, wherever you are, for watching over us.

 

[Grapesongrapes]

Troll Spotted.

Don't call me names. So mature.

 

[Sbsox30]

Mid levels are slowly but surely making their way into dentistry as well. Minnesota was the first state that allows "dental therapists". They can do the basic procedures like cleanings, simple fillings or simple extractions. I would assume that they would have to practice under a dentist or with one in the building, but it's can be a real problem. The biggest advantage is that dentistry is almost completely procedure based, which is MUCH more complex then the simple procedures a therapist could do. Plus w/ the cost of opening your own dental clinic being so high, I couldn't see how dental therapists could pay for the technology by only doing cleanings of fillings .

 

[WonderGrill]

Troll Spotted.

EDIT: Mods want to get rid of this guy? He is clearly trolling, bumping up threads from 15 years ago for no reason and just generally being obnoxious.

EDIT #2: Wow, that was quick. Thanks mods, wherever you are, for watching over us.

Yup, this is a troll post, but people who say "who would want to be a dentist" is completely fine. Keep on circlejerking though. So delusional it's actually funny. Keep telling yourself what makes you feel superior to others though.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Yup, this is a troll post, but people who say "who would want to be a dentist" is completely fine. Keep on circlejerking though. So delusional it's actually funny. Keep telling yourself what makes you feel superior to others though.

I suspect the reason this user was banned was because they went through my post history and made stupid comments on my posts from over a year ago, most of which I reported, not for making one silly comment on this thread (though it could have been a contributing factor).

 

[deleted702880]

I realize that OP was probably trolling for responses but my answer is that I just don't want to be working primarily with teeth. So many interesting systems of the human body to work with and choosing dentistry just limits the range of things that I can do. I respect dentistry as a profession but simply cannot see myself going into it. My response is also motivated by a girl I once knew who would not stop spouting off the benefits of being a dentist, how hard the DAT is in comparison to the MCAT, and why I'm an idiot for choosing medicine when dentists get the same education for the first two years. If there was any chance of me going into dentistry at that time, that girl obliterated it.

 

[allantois]

I have actually personally heard from an ER physician whose two kids are in dental and medical school that they learn the same science in dental school the first two years and they learn their dental stuff on top of it.

I think the real discussion should be a comparison of general dentistry to primary care as well as the future of both fields.

 

[jeffk805dent]

I have actually personally heard from an ER physician whose two kids are in dental and medical school that they learn the same science in dental school the first two years and they learn their dental stuff on top of it.

I think the real discussion should be a comparison of general dentistry to primary care as well as the future of both fields.

depends on dental school. I know the material in my histology and pharmacology classes were light in comparison to those similar classes that medical school students took.

 

[allantois]

This thread in a nutshell:

 

[partypantss]

Yup, this is a troll post, but people who say "who would want to be a dentist" is completely fine. Keep on circlejerking though. So delusional it's actually funny. Keep telling yourself what makes you feel superior to others though.

People saying "who would want to be a dentist" is in response to the original question. I would imagine if a pre-med went over to dental forums and asked a similar question, they would get a comparable response. Circlejerk? For medicine? In the "pre-medical Allopathic (MD)" forums? You don't say... Where do you think you are?

I don't feel superior to dentists at all. It is easily the most comparable amount of difficulty to becoming an MD. Similar requirements for admission, similar difficulty of dental school. Like I have said earlier, I come from a family of dentists, why would I hate on dentists?

The post I was responding toI called a "troll post" because that was, in fact, a troll. Like I said, they were digging up threads from fifteen years ago, going to a bunch of threads and giving ridiculous replies and just generally being a troll.

Simply stating "Dentist> Doctor" was just to rile people up and make them argue. It's just as bad as saying "Doctor> Dentist." You realize his statement is also implying that dentists aren't doctors right? Yes, that statement alone would not have been enough for me to call him a troll, but within the context of the other posts I saw of him right before that, he was most definitely a troll.

 

[ChrisMack390]

I don't understand this question. If I wanted to be pre-dental I just would...

 

[Halfdolphy]

OP, if you were to look at dentist vs doctor SOLELY in terms of salary + lifestyle, wouldn't an MD still be the better choice?

(Correct me if I am wrong, I am not an expert on it).

They both go through 4 years of professional schools.

General dentists are sometimes required to do a 1 year residency in some states (basically like a MUST because you need the experiences or it is less likely to land a job). Specialists go through 3-4 years of UNPAID residency (or very little income? idk). Dental residency= you either get paid a little or you paid them, depending on the program.

Doctors go through 3-7 years of PAID residency (mostly 3 or 4 years).

Associate general dentists make ~90k-160k fresh out of school, depending on locations (in big cities, the salary can be much lower because of saturation.) i don't know if its true, but i heard that some dentists in big cities actually have trouble finding jobs because of saturation? or they are just forced to take a smaller paycheck?

But physicians right of residency (even for those in primary care) still make more than associate dentists.

and i heard that its hard to establish your own practice (high start up cost) and saturation in big cities like NYC/Cali so there is a chance that you will be struck as an associate dentist with lower income.

Plus, private dental school's tuition is higher than med school

I really don't understand why would people think dentistry is a better choice in terms of lifestyle/money. People kept saying that dentists make more per hour but where is the SOURCE??!!

According to BLS, family practitioners make $89/hour while general dentist make $71/hour.

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/dentists.htm
http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes291062.htm

If you're saying that dentists who own their practices make more, then the other side can also say that physicians can own their practices too.

Any inputs?

 

[ChrisMack390]

I think the reason is because dentists can easily avoid insurance companies and the government.

 

[Wiesal]

We chose pre-med because we want to be doctors and not dentists. Are you lost on something?

Dentists are doctors; they deserve the title they studied for.

 

[Halfdolphy]

I think the reason is because dentists can easily avoid insurance companies and the government.

but doctors working in hospitals don't really have to deal with the insurance hassles just like the dentists right?

 

[partypantss]

OP, if you were to look at dentist vs doctor SOLELY in terms of salary + lifestyle, wouldn't an MD still be the better choice?

(Correct me if I am wrong, I am not an expert on it).

They both go through 4 years of professional schools.

General dentists are sometimes required to do a 1 year residency in some states (basically like a MUST because you need the experiences or it is less likely to land a job). Specialists go through 3-4 years of UNPAID residency (or very little income? idk). Dental residency= you either get paid a little or you paid them, depending on the program.

Doctors go through 3-7 years of PAID residency (mostly 3 or 4 years).

Associate general dentists make ~90k-160k fresh out of school, depending on locations (in big cities, the salary can be much lower because of saturation.) i don't know if its true, but i heard that some dentists in big cities actually have trouble finding jobs because of saturation? or they are just forced to take a smaller paycheck?

But physicians right of residency (even for those in primary care) still make more than associate dentists.

and i heard that its hard to establish your own practice (high start up cost) and saturation in big cities like NYC/Cali so there is a chance that you will be struck as an associate dentist with lower income.

Plus, private dental school's tuition is higher than med school

I really don't understand why would people think dentistry is a better choice in terms of lifestyle/money. People kept saying that dentists make more per hour but where is the SOURCE??!!

According to BLS, family practitioners make $89/hour while general dentist make $71/hour.

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/dentists.htm
http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes291062.htm

If you're saying that dentists who own their practices make more, then the other side can also say that physicians can own their practices too.


Any inputs?

From what I have heard/ seen the defining difference is average hours of work per week and call. Yes, you most likely will make more as a physician than as a dentist, but you will also most likely work a lot more. From my understanding, the average dentist works around 40 hrs/wk while the average physician works close to 60. For most primary care doctors, that likely translates to making less per hour than dentists. Plus you have to be on call and be ready to run into the hospital at a moments notice.

If looking at strictly earning potential, physician wins. But if you're looking at earning+ non busy lifestyle, then dentists probably have it. The X factor though is that "physicians" is very general and this varies largely depending on specialty. A psychiatrist for instance can easily work as few hours as a dentist and still end up making more than most general dentists. While a internal medicine doc will likely be working 60+ hrs a week and making more, but not THAT much more.

 

[ChrisMack390]

but doctors working in hospitals don't really have to deal with the insurance hassles just like the dentists right?

Mm maybe less so in terms of getting paid, as hospitalists usually get paid a specific salary.

They do, however, frequently need to convince insurance companies that their cancer patient does in fact need a CT scan. I guess that's more of an annoyance than a financial incentive though.

 

[studentdocftw]

Lets not turn this into a Dentistry vs. Medicine debate....my answer is quite simple...I just don't want to look at mouths all day. I want to look at the entire body..a puzzle of sorts...checking the thyroid..cva tenderness...listening for murmurs...or wheezes. I know this doesn't apply to all medical fields..but right now I'm leaning towards ED. I just feel like medicine offers more diversity...which is something I find important in a career. Simple as that. Just the other day at the ED...we had a subdural hematoma....Crohns exacerbation...and MI come in back to back to back...three different systems with different acuity...different treatment plans...and different outcomes. If that isn't diversity...I don't know what is.

 

[allantois]

but doctors working in hospitals don't really have to deal with the insurance hassles just like the dentists right?

I might seem like the biggest dentistry advocate in this thread, but that's because I used to want to be a dentist back in high school.

According to medscape report, the number of physicians employed by a hospital increased sixfold in the past 10 years (from 10% to over 60%). I personally think that it is an alarming trend and I have no desire to work for a hospital whatsoever; it's a matter of losing your professional autonomy. Also, per medscape report physicians working for a hospital spend more time on paperwork than the ones in private practice. Go figure. Dentists spend very little time on paperwork.

http://www.medscape.com/features/slideshow/compensation/2014/public/overview#6
http://www.medscape.com/features/slideshow/compensation/2014/public/overview#21

 

[Halfdolphy]

I might seem like the biggest dentistry advocate in this thread, but that's because I used to want to be a dentist back in high school.

According to medscape report, the number of physicians employed by a hospital increased sixfold in the past 10 years (from 10% to over 60%). I personally think that it is an alarming trend and I have no desire to work for a hospital whatsoever; it's a matter of losing your professional autonomy. Also, per medscape report physicians working for a hospital spend more time on paperwork than the ones in private practice. Go figure. Dentists spend very little time on paperwork.

http://www.medscape.com/features/slideshow/compensation/2014/public/overview#6
http://www.medscape.com/features/slideshow/compensation/2014/public/overview#21

Okay, doctors are doing more paperwork than dentists. But if the doctors are employed by the hospitals then they are still getting paid to do the paperwork right? May be a dumb question but: Why do everyone makes it seem like doing paperwork is such an undesirable task? I thought that almost every other profession has to put up with doing administrative work/paper work. Are they just tedious or what?

So dentists may not be doing as much paperwork but all their works are procedural (to me, doing procedures seem to be harder/more challenging than paper work…)

 

[allantois]

Okay, doctors are doing more paperwork than dentists. But if the doctors are employed by the hospitals then they are still getting paid to do the paperwork right? May be a dumb question but: Why do everyone makes it seem like doing paperwork is such an undesirable task? I thought that almost every other profession has to put up with doing administrative work/paper work. Are they just tedious or what?

So dentists may not be doing as much paperwork but all their works are procedural (to me, doing procedures seem to be harder/more challenging than paper work…)

I have no problem with paperwork, but of course I have no experience of doing it personally. I though it really sucked that a few medicine specialists who I shadowed spend more time typing/dictating notes than actually seeing patients. And medicine can be very procedural depending on your field. I actually though I'd hate surgeries until I shadowed a few surgeons and realized just how cool it is. To each their own! My biggest reservations about medicine are insurance regulations and shameful encroachment by nurses into the field.

 

[Lucca]

Okay, doctors are doing more paperwork than dentists. But if the doctors are employed by the hospitals then they are still getting paid to do the paperwork right? May be a dumb question but: Why do everyone makes it seem like doing paperwork is such an undesirable task? I thought that almost every other profession has to put up with doing administrative work/paper work. Are they just tedious or what?

So dentists may not be doing as much paperwork but all their works are procedural (to me, doing procedures seem to be harder/more challenging than paper work…)

I don't think people hate on paperwork/note writing because it is extremely undesirable (although it probably is) but rather because it is not seeing patients and seeing patients is what doctors ultimately want to be doing.

 

[avgn]

I have no problem with paperwork, but of course I have no experience of doing it personally. I though it really sucked that a few medicine specialists who I shadowed spend more time typing/dictating notes than actually seeing patients. And medicine can be very procedural depending on your field. I actually though I'd hate surgeries until I shadowed a few surgeons and realized just how cool it is. To each their own! My biggest reservations about medicine are insurance regulations and shameful encroachment by nurses into the field.

How do medical records exist without physicians writing them? Surely you understand the importance of writing down your notes on a patient for future purposes right. What, are doctors so high and mighty they shouldn't even be writing stuff down? Not doing the medical record properly is serious professional irresponsibility.

 

[avgn]

I don't think people hate on paperwork/note writing because it is extremely undesirable (although it probably is) but rather because it is not seeing patients and seeing patients is what doctors ultimately want to be doing.

And writing notes and ensuring everything you did is accurately recorded in the medical record is part of "seeing patients." I don't understand why premeds don't get that. Continuity of care, anyone?

 

[fancymylotus]

I've had enough med mal lawyer friends warn me about paperwork and notes that our girls put time blocks in our schedule specifically for all the providers in our business to sit and type out chart notes. Patients are too nuts and lawsuits are too easy to file to not cover your ass as thoroughly as possible.

 

[allantois]

How do medical records exist without physicians writing them? Surely you understand the importance of writing down your notes on a patient for future purposes right. What, are doctors so high and mighty they shouldn't even be writing stuff down? Not doing the medical record properly is serious professional irresponsibility.

I agree but it's not just record keeping it's also defensive medicine in case you get sued. It's also great that doctors keep records, but it would be even better if there was a better way for them to share the records with other physicians. I have an access to all my records through my primary care physician's medical portal (it's a huge corporate practice) and all specialists send him my reports. A lot of those records are so general: along the lines of "this patient is nice and pleasant to talk to". If I didn't take the initiative in my hands of choosing what records to fax or print out to select physicians, I doubt very much that someone would be going through tons of that paperwork to get to the bottom of what's important.

 

[avgn]

I agree but it's not just record keeping it's also defensive medicine in case you get sued. It's also great that doctors keep records, but it would be even better if there was a better way for them to share the records with other physicians. I have an access to all my records through my primary care physician's medical portal (it's a huge corporate practice) and all specialists send him my reports. A lot of those records are so general: along the lines of "this patient is nice and pleasant to talk to". If I didn't take the initiative in my hands of choosing what records to fax or print out to select physicians, I doubt very much that someone would be going through tons of that paperwork to get to the bottom of what's important.

It doesn't matter. That's completely irrelevant to what I said. Record keeping is important, and premeds need to stop complaining about the fact that they need to do paperwork and write notes. The horror of writing notes...

 

[Doudline]

This thread is gross. Some of you people are outrageously immature.

 

[avgn]

I've had enough med mal lawyer friends warn me about paperwork and notes that our girls put time blocks in our schedule specifically for all the providers in our business to sit and type out chart notes. Patients are too nuts and lawsuits are too easy to file to not cover your ass as thoroughly as possible.

"Patients are too nuts"

Ikr like patients should never have the right to request and access a complete record of what happened regarding their case. Doctors should not have to submit to these ridiculous notions that the patient should have this knowledge about themselves. Down with lawyers. Down with record-keeping

 

[allantois]

"Patients are too nuts"

Ikr like patients should never have the right to access a complete record of what happened regarding their case. Doctors should not have to submit to these ridiculous notions that the patient should have this knowledge about themselves. Down with lawyers. Down with record-keeping

I don't think anyone goes into medicine for writing senseless records. And how about having to call insurances for your patient to get approved for medication? I shadowed an older endocrinologist who for every 5 minutes with a patient spent 15 minutes typing out the notes. He so gave up on calling insurance companies that he advised every patient to do it themselves.

I guess it's a part of the job, but it is a major con.

 

[avgn]

P.S. The majority of frivolous lawsuits are routinely disposed of, and often the only tangible way for patients to request a FULL, ACCURATE picture of what happened to them is by filing a complaint to get the medical staff and hospital scared enough to get move on it. Flip side of the coin

Look at Michelle Mello's 2005/2006 NEJM piece on this. Malpractice myths are hard to break

 

[avgn]

I don't think anyone goes into medicine for writing senseless records. And how about having to call insurances for your patient to get approved for medication? I shadowed an older endocrinologist who for every 5 minutes with a patient spent 15 minutes typing out the notes. He so gave up on calling insurance companies that he advised every patient to do it themselves.

I don't understand how that example is relevant to what I'm saying. RECORD KEEPING is the physician's responsibility and you signed up for it when you swore to make the patient your number one priority at all times. Writing "senseless records" is part of providing good care for the patient AND future docs who might pick up the case. It provides information that may be very important for a whole host of reasons. That is not a difficult argument to understand.

"I guess it is part of the job"? NO. It is an absolutely essential part of the job, and patients die or get hurt without good records.

 

[fancymylotus]

"Patients are too nuts"

Ikr like patients should never have the right to request and access a complete record of what happened regarding their case. Doctors should not have to submit to these ridiculous notions that the patient should have this knowledge about themselves. Down with lawyers. Down with record-keeping

What I meant by that is that it's very easy for someone to claim something was never explained or feign confusion. Especially if no notes exist to prove otherwise.

 

[avgn]

What I meant by that is that it's very easy for someone to claim something was never explained or feign confusion. Especially if no notes exist to prove otherwise.

I agree, but having been on the opposite side of the equation, I can tell you that I filed my claim against the hospital because the medical team was not very cooperative in getting the information that I as a patient literally have codified rights to. It's not always antagonistic on the patient's side; in fact, from my observations, very rarely so. We just want to know what the hell happened. I get that doctors are busy and don't want to deal with this stuff, but too bad. You swore that I am your first priority, so live up to that standard.

 

[allantois]

I don't understand how that example is relevant to what I'm saying. RECORD KEEPING is the physician's responsibility and you signed up for it when you swore to make the patient your number one priority at all times. Writing "senseless records" is part of providing good care for the patient AND future docs who might pick up the case. It provides information that may be very important for a whole host of reasons. That is not a difficult argument to understand.

"I guess it is part of the job"? NO. It is an absolutely essential part of the job, and patients die or get hurt without good records.

I think this time could be better spent actually talking to the patient instead of writing a little note that the patient was counseled on this or that issue. Taking example of the same endocrinologist he only briefly would talk about diet, but he had a prewritten note for almost every patient that he talked about nutrition with them in great detail. The patient would benefit more if the doctor actually took the time to explain the treatment and answer questions rather than rush the appointment in order to type up the stupid note.

 

[avgn]

I think this time could be better spent actually talking to the patient instead of writing a little note that the patient was counseled on this or that issue. Taking example of the same endocrinologist he only briefly would talk about diet, but he had a prewritten note for almost every patient that he talked about nutrition with them in huge detail. The patient would benefit more if the doctor actually took the time to explain the treatment and answer questions rather than rush the appointment to type up the stupid note.

Yes, I agree. But what happens when that person moves and switches physicians? People do not remember everything they are told. That patient could've easily only recalled a small part of what the doc told him (never underestimate general bad memory) and the next doc would waste time doing the same things over. With a complete record in hand (if it were transferred well), treatment would be improved. The endocrinologist in this case should also make his adjustments regarding how much he needs to write and how much he needs to explain. It sounds like he wasn't very good at making that adjustment.

 

[Romz]

OP I wrote the DAT last year and performed very well. I had considered applying to dentistry alongside medicine, but ultimately decided against it. A few people gave some very meaningful responses as to why they chose medicine over dentistry, so kudos to them.

If I would've chosen dentistry over medicine, it would've been to gun for the OMFS specialty. What would happen, then, if I didn't match? I would've been absolutely MISERABLE in the other specialities even with the lucrative pay they provide. I need my efforts to impact the patient beyond the scope of their oral health.

 

[Mad Jack]

I just don't have the hand-eye coordination for dentistry and have essential tremor, so playing around in people's mouths with sharp things just felt like it would not be enjoyable on the one hand and that it would be a recipe for malpractice on the other.

If I could go into pre-ibanking tho...

 

[fancymylotus]

I agree, but having been on the opposite side of the equation, I can tell you that I filed my claim against the hospital because the medical team was not very cooperative in getting the information that I as a patient literally have codified rights to. It's not always antagonistic on the patient's side; in fact, from my observations, very rarely so. We just want to know what the hell happened. I get that doctors are busy and don't want to deal with this stuff, but too bad. You swore that I am your first priority, so live up to that standard.

If it's not documented, it didn't happen/it's not true. My patients are my priority, so making sure that every last bit of what I did or spoke about is charted and recorded appropriately is an important part of my day.

I would rather sit at work for 20 or 30 extra minutes a day and take my time with this stuff then spend multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars and hours wasted in court later over things that would have been totally avoidable.

 

[Lucca]

And writing notes and ensuring everything you did is accurately recorded in the medical record is part of "seeing patients." I don't understand why premeds don't get that. Continuity of care, anyone?

I'm not saying it isn't important, I just feel that is what people are voicing a problem with. To some extent, the complaints are justified insofar as notes are directly tied to billing and thus pressure one to "dictate" correctly so your bosses don't get mad at you for over or under coding someone. The docs I've shadowed generally express the most distress with note-taking and dictation when they are behind on their patient appointments (aka, 99% of the time at the places I've been). Overall I think note-taking (accountability) is a good thing for patients and doctors, but with docs already feeling pressured to cut down on visit times and increase their volume I can see why they would be frustrated that administration also increases that pressure. I feel a lot of doctors would prefer just to see less patients and spend more time with each one than spending 15 mins in the room and then 3-5 mins dictating.