Would you report cheating?

Started by lalex
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The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

You should talk to your classmate first (that you're going to tell the TA/professor) and give him the option of confessing himself for a lighter punishment or whatever schools do in these situations. Otherwise wave goodbye to him as you walk into the professor's office. This is all assuming you know for a fact he's cheating.
 
J Senpai said:
Hmm, I don't see where you mean. But I'm done ITT. Gotta make some noms. @Affiche , I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the matter.
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You posited a scenario with Person 1 and Person 2 where they put in different amounts of work for the same grade.
You also posited a scenario with Person 1 and Person 2 where there was a masters program or something; I didn't really read that one.
I quoted the first scenario and responded to it.
You then critiqued my response as being inadequate for the second scenario.

I know you used confusingly similar names in both, but what's the point of me quoting things other than to indicate what I am responding to?
 
Slave to the Game said:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

You should talk to your classmate first (that you're going to tell the TA/professor) and give him the option of confessing himself for a lighter punishment or whatever schools do in these situations. Otherwise wave goodbye to him as you walk into the professor's office. This is all assuming you know for a fact he's cheating.
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Evil harms other people. Cheating harms the cheater.
 
mehc012 said:
You posited a scenario with Person 1 and Person 2 where they put in different amounts of work for the same grade.
You also posited a scenario with Person 1 and Person 2 where there was a masters program or something; I didn't really read that one.
I quoted the first scenario and responded to it.
You then critiqued my response as being inadequate for the second scenario.

I know you used confusingly similar names in both, but what's the point of me quoting things other than to indicate what I am responding to?
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Ah, I see. I extended my scenario. They're the same hypothetical people. :shrug:
 
J Senpai said:
Ah, I see. I extended my scenario. They're the same hypothetical people. :shrug:
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Ah. I did not see the two as the same.
I honestly think it comes down to the broader scale. Sure, on an individual basis an honest person might get effed here and there while a cheater prospers. But in the big picture, the honest person comes out ahead (unless you're talking politics or Wall Street). Micro-scale sucks sometimes, but again...life ain't fair. We all ought to strive not to worsen that, but since I really don't think the cheater comes out ahead, this isn't an example of that.
 
J Senpai said:
What Jacob VanWagoner said about how relatively little you need to know to be competent reminded me of a pretty big engineering fraud story that came to light about a year and a half ago in Australia.

The jist of it is this guy met and got to know a civil engineer when he was in South Africa. When he returned to Australia he used that civil engineer's identity and degree to get into a masters program at a university in Sydney. He graduated with a Master of Engineering Science in Highway Engineering and used these 'qualifications' to get jobs in Australia and New Zealand as a project manager, construction manager and a qualified in-house engineer. He even worked for some fairly big name companies. Some of the works that he was involved in haven't collapsed (touch wood) and some of them have collapsed and killed people.

You can read more about it here: How a fraudster engineered his past

This is actually kind of scary. He basically cheated the whole system!
I suppose he must have been in some way competent to be able to get a masters degree and not get caught for such a long time!
Written 16 Jan 2014
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That's the first time i've seen someone hyperlinking paragraphs....
 
lalex said:
I have a picture of him copying off his phone, you can even see the notes on his phone.
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How was this not seen? Are people so stupid that they do not realize there are cameras everywhere anymore?????
Geez latex, don't tell me, but I am really wondering about which school you attend.

Listen up. In hospitals, schools, clinics, offices, you name it, there are cameras, which you may or may not be able to locate w/o inside information.
My God. There are even cameras on the highways and intersections.

And if you saw this person openly cheating w/ his phone, how is it that no one else did?

Academic dishonesty is a reputation and career killer. Better to take your chances w/ possibly getting an F. If you don't have the teaching and character to understand why cheating is wrong, then at least realize it's totally not worth the risk. It's simple. It's just stupid.
 
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mehc012 said:
Now you're mixing the examples you're using. I was discussing the one I quoted.
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Lol I thought he was mixing up examples too.
@J Senpai it was slippery slope because you said that condoning cheating leads to things like committing fraud. That's pretty far-fetched, imo. But anyway, I'm fine with agreeing to disagree on this one.
 
toast said:
just blackmail the cheater. That way OP doesn't have to feel like a goody-two-shoes/snitch, the cheater suffers/is deterred from future cheating, and OP gets some cash or other benefit. win win win! Plus, bonus win for the irony for all this going down in ethics class
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Totally. It's ridiculousness.

Didn't the t/a or whoever give the parameters and directions for taking the test? But some people are just so daft that you have to wonder that they think, "Oh. It's open book/open Internet/shots. How can you lose by saying, "You do realize this isn't open book/Internet/Screen Shot, right?"
 
blackgirlmd said:
Rape compared to a student cheating on a quiz. Lol what the hell. No one gets hurt if you mind your business when someone is cheating.
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Except people do get hurt from cheating. As future professionals, we should make sure that this kind of behavior is not tolerated. Many cheaters get caught eventually, yes, but many still slip through the cracks nonetheless. These people go on to get positions of responsibility and can potentially affect the lives of thousands. People with no qualms to commit academic ethical violations are likely to do the same with respect to patient care. Thus, people can get hurt when people cheat. In certain overseas countries (e.g., India), cheating is a huge problem. There is a lot of corruption on various levels that ties in with widespread cheating in these countries. We should strive to prevent that happening here to the best of our ability. Academic integrity and quality education are sacred.

Also, my point was not that cheating is as bad as rape (although in certain moral frameworks it can be argued that it is), my point is that you would report rape because it is wrong. Those of whom claim they would never report a cheater are just as culpable as the person who cheats.
 
El-Rami said:
Except people do get hurt from cheating. As future professionals, we should make sure that this kind of behavior is not tolerated. Many cheaters get caught eventually, yes, but many still slip through the cracks nonetheless. These people go on to get positions of responsibility and can potentially affect the lives of thousands. People with no qualms to commit academic ethical violations are likely to do the same with respect to patient care. Thus, people can get hurt when people cheat. In certain overseas countries (e.g., India), cheating is a huge problem. There is a lot of corruption on various levels that ties in with widespread cheating in these countries. We should strive to prevent that happening here to the best of our ability. Academic integrity and quality education are sacred.

Also, my point was not that cheating is as bad as rape (although in certain moral frameworks it can be argued that it is), my point is that you would report rape because it is wrong. Those of whom claim they would never report a cheater are just as culpable as the person who cheats.
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Lol there are so many logical fallacies here that I don't even know where to start....
 
El-Rami said:
Except people do get hurt from cheating. As future professionals, we should make sure that this kind of behavior is not tolerated. Many cheaters get caught eventually, yes, but many still slip through the cracks nonetheless. These people go on to get positions of responsibility and can potentially affect the lives of thousands. People with no qualms to commit academic ethical violations are likely to do the same with respect to patient care. Thus, people can get hurt when people cheat. In certain overseas countries (e.g., India), cheating is a huge problem. There is a lot of corruption on various levels that ties in with widespread cheating in these countries. We should strive to prevent that happening here to the best of our ability. Academic integrity and quality education are sacred.

Also, my point was not that rape is as bad as cheating (although in certain moral frameworks it can be argued that it is), my point is that you would report rape because it is wrong. Those of whom claim they would never report a cheater are just as culpable as the person who cheats.
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You're delusional. You seem to be forgetting there are varying degrees of severity in wrongdoing. Is running over a small plant that would eventually become a tree the same thing as illegally chopping down a grown tree? Its a stupid example but by your logic its the same exact thing.
 
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El-Rami said:
Except people do get hurt from cheating. As future professionals, we should make sure that this kind of behavior is not tolerated. Many cheaters get caught eventually, yes, but many still slip through the cracks nonetheless. These people go on to get positions of responsibility and can potentially affect the lives of thousands. People with no qualms to commit academic ethical violations are likely to do the same with respect to patient care. Thus, people can get hurt when people cheat. In certain overseas countries (e.g., India), cheating is a huge problem. There is a lot of corruption on various levels that ties in with widespread cheating in these countries. We should strive to prevent that happening here to the best of our ability. Academic integrity and quality education are sacred.

Also, my point was not that cheating is as bad as rape (although in certain moral frameworks it can be argued that it is), my point is that you would report rape because it is wrong. Those of whom claim they would never report a cheater are just as culpable as the person who cheats.
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Slippery-Slope.png
 
ProspectiveKidd said:
You're delusional. You seem to be forgetting there are varying degrees of severity in wrongdoing. Is running over a small plant that would eventually become a tree the same thing illegally chopping down a grown tree? Its a stupid example but by your logic its the same exact thing.
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Actually, I never stated this in my post. While I did state that some individuals may believe that the two examples of rape and academic dishonesty are equally wrong according to their system of morality, I never said this is what I believe. Furthermore, you should still report cheating because it is the right thing to do. People who have no problem cheating likely have no issue whatsoever violating other ethical standards, so the harm caused by cheating is indirect. Just because it is indirect does not mean that it is not present.
 
So you're going to report someone for having their phone out during a test by showing a pic that proves that you had your phone out during the test?
 
Psai said:
So you're going to report someone for having their phone out during a test by showing a pic that proves that you had your phone out during the test?
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It was stated by the OP that this person was making up a quiz in the classroom. The OP had already taken the quiz.
 
The logic is really the reverse, but same end outcome. People who cheat in undergrad may not be likely to unethically endanger people, but the people willing to unethically endanger people most likely were willing to be unethical at a smaller scale in the past (B is a subset largely contained in A). Since it's really really bad to let that kind of person in, the blanket prevention strategy of outright rejecting all cheaters is the best way to go. Extremely high false positive rate, sure, since a lot of those people with IAs would not do anything terrible as physicians...but it's a worthwhile tradeoff for minimizing the false negative rate.
 
efle said:
The logic is really the reverse, but same end outcome. People who cheat in undergrad may not be likely to unethically endanger people, but the people willing to unethically endanger people most likely were willing to be unethical at a smaller scale in the past (B is a subset largely contained in A). Since it's really really bad to let that kind of person in, the blanket prevention strategy of outright rejecting all cheaters is the best way to go. Extremely high false positive rate, sure, since a lot of those people with IAs would not do anything terrible as physicians...but it's a worthwhile tradeoff for minimizing the false negative rate.
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Your vocabulary sounds like that of a person that writes MCAT passages in the VR section lol
 
Affiche said:
Lol I thought he was mixing up examples too.
@J Senpai it was slippery slope because you said that condoning cheating leads to things like committing fraud. That's pretty far-fetched, imo. But anyway, I'm fine with agreeing to disagree on this one.
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I didn't say that condoning cheating could lead to fraud. I said i could lead to someone getting a position they didn't deserve over someone who did. I simply used the fraud example to establish the possibility of such a thing, then compared such a dramatic example to my scenario in order to better establish the latter's feasibility.

But yeah, I think we're coming at the problem from pretty different perspectives.
 
Slave to the Game said:
That's some small-minded thinking. Also, the grading is curved so cheating does in fact affect every single other person's grade in the class.
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Small minded how? It doesn't affect me, I don't give a crap whether they're willing to waste their time taking a class without learning the material, and I don't give a crap what grade they get. I don't see anywhere that we specified a curved course, and even if it did, I'm going to do me, and I'll get the grade I deserved regardless of what they do. They're only hurting themselves.
 
jl lin said:
How was this not seen? Are people so stupid that they do not realize there are cameras everywhere anymore?????
Geez latex, don't tell me, but I am really wondering about which school you attend.

Listen up. In hospitals, schools, clinics, offices, you name it, there are cameras, which you may or may not be able to locate w/o inside information.
My God. There are even cameras on the highways and intersections.

And if you saw this person openly cheating w/ his phone, how is it that no one else did?

Academic dishonesty is a reputation and career killer. Better to take your chances w/ possibly getting an F. If you don't have the teaching and character to understand why cheating is wrong, then at least realize it's totally not worth the risk. It's simple. It's just stupid.
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Trust me, I know. I fail tests proudly without cheating.

Everyone had their phone out, people didn't know he was taking a quiz until maybe the TA got it from him. The professor walks up the aisles to look at what we're doing on our laptops and every time he got close, he would twitch, but not completely hide his phone. It was never put away.
 
Ok here is one out of two.
I obviously had to block out his face for privacy and hopefully this is okay to post...
sb4zn7.jpg
 
In the picture there is no one next to him because class just started, but two girls came in and I'm surprised no one else noticed.
 
Weltschadenfreude said:
I hope you were or will be honest in your med school interview if you get an ethic question.
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I had plenty of ethics questions and only one asked about how involved I would get in someone else's behavior. I said that it's not something I would get involved in. I was accepted.

There's nothing wrong with not wanting to meddle. I value my own moral code highly and I frown upon cheating, but it's not my responsibility to align other people with my moral code.
 
See now this just pizzes me off b/c it's so blatantly obvious. Why even let someone do a test during regular class? BS. You don't have to convenience the student in situations like that.

I'm thinking it's just something to check off, and no one really gives crap with this quiz/deal. So. . . .
 
lalex said:
:shrug: Should I not have?
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I am lol at the faces and the fact that you actually posted this. Whatever floats your boat. But it is ridiculous how obvious it is. See above. It's not a big enough deal for anyone to give a damn. Your principle is correct; but t/as and profs don't like to deal with playing cop. When I taught, I didn't. OTOH, you gotta do what you have to do. If it's obvious, well . . .
 
IDK, I don't mean to seem snitch-like, but this is so obvious. I'd show it to the t/a as a question, for example, "So, nobody gives a damn, and this is cool? Would you be OK if I tried this for the next exam? Can I have that in writing?" 😎
 
Lost in Translation said:
Sometimes I wish there was a verification system on these forums, so all you who say not to turn him in can be called out on it when asked in an interview: "you see a fellow med student cheating. What do you do?" and you f**ks answer "Turn that fool in!"

Think, if OP turns in the guy and he gets a slap on the wrist but never cheats again and goes on to matriculate to med school, that's a good thing. But if OP doesn't turn him in and he gets caught cheating on an exam, well **** he's not going to med school.
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Well is it any surprise to you that the folks who are happy not to report a cheater are the same ones who will undoubtedly lie about it in their med school interviews?
 
Affiche said:
Lol not caring enough about other people isn't the same as blatantly lying about yourself.
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Well, that's true, and I should have qualified it -- maybe more like, if someone doesn't think cheating is a big enough deal to report it, it's unlikely that he thinks there's anything wrong with lying to the interviewer about what he'd do if he witnessed cheating.
 
bumblebee611 said:
Well, that's true, and I should have qualified it -- maybe more like, if someone doesn't think cheating is a big enough deal to report it, it's unlikely that he thinks there's anything wrong with lying to the interviewer about what he'd do if he witnessed cheating.
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That's not much better lol. As I said earlier, I care about my own morality, not some random kid's down the row from me. I won't cheat, lie or steal but I'm not going to go out of my way to report someone else either (unless it's hurting another person, in which case that's a different issue entirely).
 
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