Would you/should you report a friend's application for excessive academic dishonesty?

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JimmyPage1969 said:
I guess you could if you want...but the MCAT will roll the dice for your friend...lol
Click to expand...

This particular school is not looking at the MCAT for this cycle, just GPA. She applied to about 20-30 other schools total (I think closer to 20, don't remember exact amount). About half were MD and half were DO. I agree that MCAT will pretty much destroy her chance at every other school
 
If her father has that many connections, he should be trying to land her an admin (billing, claims, etc.) job instead of med school because she is not getting in with those stats.
 
Every doc out there is a legend in their own mind, and feel they hold some magical power over admissions. Short of him being the dean of students it's doubtful he has any pull, and even the dean of students would have to justify to everyone else on the admissions committee the blatant nepotism.

The thing with lies is they tend to catch up with you at some point. Imagine living the next 7 years wondering if you're going to get caught and expelled (as I'm sure she will list these on her ERAS, if she were to get into med school). If you wanted to be particularly vindictive wait until she gets in somewhere (it's a big IF but if schools are waiving MCAT she has more of a shot) and then send the admissions office an email - let them do their own fact checking.
 
488 would be a death kiss unless dad is dean imo. Even if this school is waiving Mcat and she gets in then she’s going to struggle so hard that she will likely
Fail out
 
medmepls said:
This particular school is not looking at the MCAT for this cycle, just GPA.
Click to expand...

Are some schools really throwing out the MCAT this cycle? Last I heard, some schools were just holding off on looking at it until final decisions were made due to MCAT testing delays. I doubt schools will be ignoring it altogether.

A <500 score like your friend got has always been used as the cut-off point at which you start seeing significant drops in Step 1 pass rate. And with a 488, your friend falls into the bracket which has historically had a 64% pass rate (compared to ~93%+ for >500 scorers).
 
enchantments said:
Are some schools really throwing out the MCAT this cycle? Last I heard, some schools were just holding off on looking at it until final decisions were made due to MCAT testing delays. I doubt schools will be ignoring it altogether.

A <500 score like your friend got has always been used as the cut-off point at which you start seeing significant drops in Step 1 pass rate. And with a 488, your friend falls into the bracket which has historically had a 64% pass rate (compared to ~93%+ for >500 scorers).
Click to expand...

This school is ignoring it, I believe. Their website states that they are not requiring the MCAT due to COVID-19, and someone on the school's thread who was accepted said that someone on the admissions team told them they didn't even know if they had taken it. I'm not sure how many schools are actually just getting rid of the MCAT entirely, this is the only school I've seen that does it.
 
medmepls said:
I have a friend who lied excessively on her application--I know this because she asked me to go over it with her last June and actually pointed out what she had and had not done. I'm not just talking about exaggerating hours or responsibilities. Her father is a radiologist, so he used his connections to fabricate entire research opportunities & volunteer positions.

Specifically, she said she worked on a research project he is the PI of (her father had her list his study coordinator as the contact, not him). She also said she volunteered in the radiology department as a Spanish translator and listed the radiology manager as her contact (this is the most obvious lie because the hospital her father works in uses phone translation services). She also lied about volunteering in a hospice unit for 2 years and listed her dad's friend as the contact.

When I talked to her about it, she said she was low on activities partially due to COVID--I told her almost everyone's application was affected by COVID and to just be honest, see how the cycle pans out, and try to improve her application for the next year, but she really didn't care.

This friend has low stats (3.2 sGPA/488 MCAT), but her dad is also a preceptor for 3rd/4th year medical students at one particular medical school in our state. This school is located about 4 hours away, so I'm not sure how well he knows admissions members. However, I believe about 1/3 of the students are assigned to the region his hospital is within--so if any of those students are on the admissions team, they may remember there were no translation services or translation volunteers at that hospital.

When this all happened I thought to just let it be. If she fabricated this much stuff, it was bound to be revealed, especially if she's lying about a volunteer position that doesn't exist in the hospital about 1/3 of the medical students rotate in. She was still a weak applicant and I figured let the dice roll as they will.

I spoke to her this week and she said she still is really optimistic about getting in based off what her father tells her and how much influence he says he holds. I asked her if she was nervous about fabricating activities and she essentially said lying about "doing bull**** activities" isn't a big deal and she was glad she didn't have to "waste her time" doing them, or focus too hard on her grades since she believes her dad will be able to get her in the school.

Here's the big plot twist--this friend is actually my boyfriend's sister. I have been with my boyfriend for 4 years. Him and his father have a tenuous relationship at best. They have not spoken since last June. If I were to report it I don't think I could let my boyfriend know--while he agrees she should not be a doctor and isn't a very mature or moral person, obviously it's his sister and he would definitely be angry. That alone is really why I feel I shouldn't report it as I don't want to keep a secret of that magnitude from him.

But, I really don't know if I'm somehow ~morally responsible~ to report this since her attitude is such garbage and it is so obvious she should not be admitted into any medical school. She has a history of lying/cheating beyond this (i.e. didn't write her personal statement, cheated in her undergrad courses).

I'm also afraid of the admissions committee somehow letting her father know someone sent in an email/phone call notifying them of her dishonesty, and him being able to pinpoint it as me since I'm not sure how many people she's shown her application to. If he were to somehow figure out that I reported this, I could definitely foresee it potentially destroying either my relationship with my boyfriend or even further stressing the relationship he has with his father.

If I were to report anything, I'm not even sure how explicit I should be--should I detail all the activities she fabricated, or should I just encourage them to contact the volunteer director at the hospital to confirm that position doesn't exist/take a closer look at her application?

AlSO--I swear this isn't an MMI scenario practice lol, my life is just a soap opera. She's also not "competition" for me. I only applied to one school ED (that I was lucky enough to get into), that she did not apply to due to her low MCAT. I've given her a lot of advice over the past 4 years for being successful in school and in her application, but she hasn't taken much to heart.
Click to expand...
No, just stop being her friend
 
If you are going to write letter you need to sign it and not make it anonymous. I have read letters that report issues with applicants and if they are anonymous it is basically thrown away as written by someone who has a grudge against the applicant. Signing the letter goes a long way with the committee in believing that you are telling fact.
 
thumbz said:
Every doc out there is a legend in their own mind, and feel they hold some magical power over admissions. Short of him being the dean of students it's doubtful he has any pull, and even the dean of students would have to justify to everyone else on the admissions committee the blatant nepotism.

The thing with lies is they tend to catch up with you at some point. Imagine living the next 7 years wondering if you're going to get caught and expelled (as I'm sure she will list these on her ERAS, if she were to get into med school). If you wanted to be particularly vindictive wait until she gets in somewhere (it's a big IF but if schools are waiving MCAT she has more of a shot) and then send the admissions office an email - let them do their own fact checking.
Click to expand...

Are activities completed before entering med school typically listed in ERAS?
 
unexpectedcomplications said:
Are activities completed before entering med school typically listed in ERAS?
Click to expand...

Research, pubs and volunteer activities (that continue) are usually included. If someone is willing to lie about a volunteer activity in undergrad they'll likely continue to lie about it in med school to bolster their residency app. Cheaters rarely stop cheating.
 
medmepls said:
I have a friend who lied excessively on her application--I know this because she asked me to go over it with her last June and actually pointed out what she had and had not done. I'm not just talking about exaggerating hours or responsibilities. Her father is a radiologist, so he used his connections to fabricate entire research opportunities & volunteer positions.

Specifically, she said she worked on a research project he is the PI of (her father had her list his study coordinator as the contact, not him). She also said she volunteered in the radiology department as a Spanish translator and listed the radiology manager as her contact (this is the most obvious lie because the hospital her father works in uses phone translation services). She also lied about volunteering in a hospice unit for 2 years and listed her dad's friend as the contact.

When I talked to her about it, she said she was low on activities partially due to COVID--I told her almost everyone's application was affected by COVID and to just be honest, see how the cycle pans out, and try to improve her application for the next year, but she really didn't care.

This friend has low stats (3.2 sGPA/488 MCAT), but her dad is also a preceptor for 3rd/4th year medical students at one particular medical school in our state. This school is located about 4 hours away, so I'm not sure how well he knows admissions members. However, I believe about 1/3 of the students are assigned to the region his hospital is within--so if any of those students are on the admissions team, they may remember there were no translation services or translation volunteers at that hospital.

When this all happened I thought to just let it be. If she fabricated this much stuff, it was bound to be revealed, especially if she's lying about a volunteer position that doesn't exist in the hospital about 1/3 of the medical students rotate in. She was still a weak applicant and I figured let the dice roll as they will.

I spoke to her this week and she said she still is really optimistic about getting in based off what her father tells her and how much influence he says he holds. I asked her if she was nervous about fabricating activities and she essentially said lying about "doing bull**** activities" isn't a big deal and she was glad she didn't have to "waste her time" doing them, or focus too hard on her grades since she believes her dad will be able to get her in the school.

Here's the big plot twist--this friend is actually my boyfriend's sister. I have been with my boyfriend for 4 years. Him and his father have a tenuous relationship at best. They have not spoken since last June. If I were to report it I don't think I could let my boyfriend know--while he agrees she should not be a doctor and isn't a very mature or moral person, obviously it's his sister and he would definitely be angry. That alone is really why I feel I shouldn't report it as I don't want to keep a secret of that magnitude from him.

But, I really don't know if I'm somehow ~morally responsible~ to report this since her attitude is such garbage and it is so obvious she should not be admitted into any medical school. She has a history of lying/cheating beyond this (i.e. didn't write her personal statement, cheated in her undergrad courses).

I'm also afraid of the admissions committee somehow letting her father know someone sent in an email/phone call notifying them of her dishonesty, and him being able to pinpoint it as me since I'm not sure how many people she's shown her application to. If he were to somehow figure out that I reported this, I could definitely foresee it potentially destroying either my relationship with my boyfriend or even further stressing the relationship he has with his father.

If I were to report anything, I'm not even sure how explicit I should be--should I detail all the activities she fabricated, or should I just encourage them to contact the volunteer director at the hospital to confirm that position doesn't exist/take a closer look at her application?

AlSO--I swear this isn't an MMI scenario practice lol, my life is just a soap opera. She's also not "competition" for me. I only applied to one school ED (that I was lucky enough to get into), that she did not apply to due to her low MCAT. I've given her a lot of advice over the past 4 years for being successful in school and in her application, but she hasn't taken much to heart.
Click to expand...
With a 488 MCAT, even if her dad was Tony Fauci, she's not going to med school, period, except as a standardized patient.

Admission Deans aren't going to pay attention to some random, anonymous "this person is lying/evil/dishonest/a criminal" phone call or emails. They've see too many people try to sabotage ex-SOs, business partners, or competition.

Anyone who is going to fabricate such experiences would quickly be outed upon interviews when they would be asked questions about their experiences.

Allow me to share an example. This kid lied about shadowing a DO named Dr Smith at Hospital X in the western part of our state. It turned out that the DO was a friend of my colleague and co-interviewer, Dr Wesson.

Dr Wesson knew that Dr Smith was no longer working at Hospital X at the time period the kid said that they were shadowing.

So Dr Wesson simply pointed this out and you could see the kid trying to disappear into the seat cushions
 
medmepls said:
This school is ignoring it, I believe. Their website states that they are not requiring the MCAT due to COVID-19, and someone on the school's thread who was accepted said that someone on the admissions team told them they didn't even know if they had taken it. I'm not sure how many schools are actually just getting rid of the MCAT entirely, this is the only school I've seen that does it.
Click to expand...
They're not going to ignore the MCAT for someone with a 3.2 GPA.
 
medmepls said:
I have a friend who lied excessively on her application--I know this because she asked me to go over it with her last June and actually pointed out what she had and had not done. I'm not just talking about exaggerating hours or responsibilities. Her father is a radiologist, so he used his connections to fabricate entire research opportunities & volunteer positions.

Specifically, she said she worked on a research project he is the PI of (her father had her list his study coordinator as the contact, not him). She also said she volunteered in the radiology department as a Spanish translator and listed the radiology manager as her contact (this is the most obvious lie because the hospital her father works in uses phone translation services). She also lied about volunteering in a hospice unit for 2 years and listed her dad's friend as the contact.

When I talked to her about it, she said she was low on activities partially due to COVID--I told her almost everyone's application was affected by COVID and to just be honest, see how the cycle pans out, and try to improve her application for the next year, but she really didn't care.

This friend has low stats (3.2 sGPA/488 MCAT), but her dad is also a preceptor for 3rd/4th year medical students at one particular medical school in our state. This school is located about 4 hours away, so I'm not sure how well he knows admissions members. However, I believe about 1/3 of the students are assigned to the region his hospital is within--so if any of those students are on the admissions team, they may remember there were no translation services or translation volunteers at that hospital.

When this all happened I thought to just let it be. If she fabricated this much stuff, it was bound to be revealed, especially if she's lying about a volunteer position that doesn't exist in the hospital about 1/3 of the medical students rotate in. She was still a weak applicant and I figured let the dice roll as they will.

I spoke to her this week and she said she still is really optimistic about getting in based off what her father tells her and how much influence he says he holds. I asked her if she was nervous about fabricating activities and she essentially said lying about "doing bull**** activities" isn't a big deal and she was glad she didn't have to "waste her time" doing them, or focus too hard on her grades since she believes her dad will be able to get her in the school.

Here's the big plot twist--this friend is actually my boyfriend's sister. I have been with my boyfriend for 4 years. Him and his father have a tenuous relationship at best. They have not spoken since last June. If I were to report it I don't think I could let my boyfriend know--while he agrees she should not be a doctor and isn't a very mature or moral person, obviously it's his sister and he would definitely be angry. That alone is really why I feel I shouldn't report it as I don't want to keep a secret of that magnitude from him.

But, I really don't know if I'm somehow ~morally responsible~ to report this since her attitude is such garbage and it is so obvious she should not be admitted into any medical school. She has a history of lying/cheating beyond this (i.e. didn't write her personal statement, cheated in her undergrad courses).

I'm also afraid of the admissions committee somehow letting her father know someone sent in an email/phone call notifying them of her dishonesty, and him being able to pinpoint it as me since I'm not sure how many people she's shown her application to. If he were to somehow figure out that I reported this, I could definitely foresee it potentially destroying either my relationship with my boyfriend or even further stressing the relationship he has with his father.

If I were to report anything, I'm not even sure how explicit I should be--should I detail all the activities she fabricated, or should I just encourage them to contact the volunteer director at the hospital to confirm that position doesn't exist/take a closer look at her application?

AlSO--I swear this isn't an MMI scenario practice lol, my life is just a soap opera. She's also not "competition" for me. I only applied to one school ED (that I was lucky enough to get into), that she did not apply to due to her low MCAT. I've given her a lot of advice over the past 4 years for being successful in school and in her application, but she hasn't taken much to heart.
Click to expand...
I decided to take a closer look at this to try to help u.
1. The likelihood of the first bolded part happening is zilch
2. If you really believe in the second bolded part, why make a thread on SDN, unless you are the friend in question?
 
Goro said:
With a 488 MCAT, even if her dad was Tony Fauci, she's not going to med school, period, except as a standardized patient.

Admission Deans aren't going to pay attention to some random, anonymous "this person is lying/evil/dishonest/a criminal" phone call or emails. They've see too many people try to sabotage ex-SOs, business partners, or competition.

Anyone who is going to fabricate such experiences would quickly be outed upon interviews when they would be asked questions about their experiences.

Allow me to share an example. This kid lied about shadowing a DO named Dr Smith at Hospital X in the western part of our state. It turned out that the DO was a friend of my colleague and co-interviewer, Dr Wesson.

Dr Wesson knew that Dr Smith was no longer working at Hospital X at the time period the kid said that they were shadowing.

So Dr Wesson simply pointed this out and you could see the kid trying to disappear into the seat cushions
Click to expand...

I think I know these people you speak of. I actually work with two of their other friends, Dr. M&P and Dr. Shield.
 
medmepls said:
I have a friend who lied excessively on her application--I know this because she asked me to go over it with her last June and actually pointed out what she had and had not done. I'm not just talking about exaggerating hours or responsibilities. Her father is a radiologist, so he used his connections to fabricate entire research opportunities & volunteer positions.

Specifically, she said she worked on a research project he is the PI of (her father had her list his study coordinator as the contact, not him). She also said she volunteered in the radiology department as a Spanish translator and listed the radiology manager as her contact (this is the most obvious lie because the hospital her father works in uses phone translation services). She also lied about volunteering in a hospice unit for 2 years and listed her dad's friend as the contact.

When I talked to her about it, she said she was low on activities partially due to COVID--I told her almost everyone's application was affected by COVID and to just be honest, see how the cycle pans out, and try to improve her application for the next year, but she really didn't care.

This friend has low stats (3.2 sGPA/488 MCAT), but her dad is also a preceptor for 3rd/4th year medical students at one particular medical school in our state. This school is located about 4 hours away, so I'm not sure how well he knows admissions members. However, I believe about 1/3 of the students are assigned to the region his hospital is within--so if any of those students are on the admissions team, they may remember there were no translation services or translation volunteers at that hospital.

When this all happened I thought to just let it be. If she fabricated this much stuff, it was bound to be revealed, especially if she's lying about a volunteer position that doesn't exist in the hospital about 1/3 of the medical students rotate in. She was still a weak applicant and I figured let the dice roll as they will.

I spoke to her this week and she said she still is really optimistic about getting in based off what her father tells her and how much influence he says he holds. I asked her if she was nervous about fabricating activities and she essentially said lying about "doing bull**** activities" isn't a big deal and she was glad she didn't have to "waste her time" doing them, or focus too hard on her grades since she believes her dad will be able to get her in the school.

Here's the big plot twist--this friend is actually my boyfriend's sister. I have been with my boyfriend for 4 years. Him and his father have a tenuous relationship at best. They have not spoken since last June. If I were to report it I don't think I could let my boyfriend know--while he agrees she should not be a doctor and isn't a very mature or moral person, obviously it's his sister and he would definitely be angry. That alone is really why I feel I shouldn't report it as I don't want to keep a secret of that magnitude from him.

But, I really don't know if I'm somehow ~morally responsible~ to report this since her attitude is such garbage and it is so obvious she should not be admitted into any medical school. She has a history of lying/cheating beyond this (i.e. didn't write her personal statement, cheated in her undergrad courses).

I'm also afraid of the admissions committee somehow letting her father know someone sent in an email/phone call notifying them of her dishonesty, and him being able to pinpoint it as me since I'm not sure how many people she's shown her application to. If he were to somehow figure out that I reported this, I could definitely foresee it potentially destroying either my relationship with my boyfriend or even further stressing the relationship he has with his father.

If I were to report anything, I'm not even sure how explicit I should be--should I detail all the activities she fabricated, or should I just encourage them to contact the volunteer director at the hospital to confirm that position doesn't exist/take a closer look at her application?

AlSO--I swear this isn't an MMI scenario practice lol, my life is just a soap opera. She's also not "competition" for me. I only applied to one school ED (that I was lucky enough to get into), that she did not apply to due to her low MCAT. I've given her a lot of advice over the past 4 years for being successful in school and in her application, but she hasn't taken much to heart.
Click to expand...

Hi. I think you should let it go (although I would hate for someone like your friend to be my physicians)
Many people get into places (jobs, schools, etc) with connections/network.
It is the job of the Adcom to be able to see through the BS during the interview process.
If you feel like this goes against your moral/ethical values, then by all means report the friend.
But like most has stated, she either will be screed out due to her stats, or will not do well academically.

Best of luck.
 
Agree with others on here. Even if she gets in, she'll fail out before preclinical are over. Don't worry about it. Being unscrupulous has a way of biting you in the ass along the medical training pathway.
 
Look into your heart. I think you already know the right thing to do, @medmepls .

I can tell you have a good moral grounding and I am proud of your character.

I wish you the best of luck with whatever you decide. Keep us posted as you wish.
 
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