Would you still do anesthesiology?

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delicatefade

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Here's what I want to know (the search function won't let me search gasforums for some reason).

For those of you OUT of residency, preferably for 5-10+years, knowing what you know now about the profession if you were currently a graduating M4, would you still go into anesthesiology??? I'm curious to hear from both sides, especially the ones who are predicting the implosion of anesthesiology within 20 years.

If you wouldn't go into anesthesiology in 2007, what would you do instead?

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Here's what I want to know (the search function won't let me search gasforums for some reason).

For those of you OUT of residency, preferably for 5-10+years, knowing what you know now about the profession if you were currently a graduating M4, would you still go into anesthesiology??? I'm curious to hear from both sides, especially the ones who are predicting the implosion of anesthesiology within 20 years.

If you wouldn't go into anesthesiology in 2007, what would you do instead?

Look at almost every specialty. Radiology will be taken over by computers. FP will be taken over by nurses. OB will be taken over by midwives. Ophtha will be taken over by optometrists... etc, etc, etc. It is human nature to predict doom and gloom. People have been predicting the end of the world since the beginning of time. Yet the sun still rises every day, and physicians still have their jobs that they were assured they'll lose. Be active in protecting your career, but don't shy away from a specialty you're interested in because people claim the sky is falling. That being said... I'm also interested in what people have to say.
 
At least one good has come from this CRNA mess. It has shown other medical specialties what the natural course is if you let a group of midlevels become dedicated to your specialty. No specialty should allow midlevels to obtain a degree or certificate that legitimizes them in that specialty. It allows them a way to identify with each other and organize. There is a fledging midlevel movement in radiology called RPA (1 school, 300 alumni). The radiologists are trying to squash it before it becomes a problem. The specialized midlevels can become a threat only if they have the support of the specialty.

I'm just sorry to see the sad state of affairs in anesthesiology. The damage is irreversible at this point.
 
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I'm just sorry to see the sad state of affairs in anesthesiology. The damage is irreversible at this point.

Case in point.... doom and gloom. The end is near.
 
Are you a medical student?

At least one good has come from this CRNA mess. It has shown other medical specialties what the natural course is if you let a group of midlevels become dedicated to your specialty. No specialty should allow midlevels to obtain a degree or certificate that legitimizes them in that specialty. It allows them a way to identify with each other and organize. There is a fledging midlevel movement in radiology called RPA (1 school, 300 alumni). The radiologists are trying to squash it before it becomes a problem. The specialized midlevels can become a threat only if they have the support of the specialty.

I'm just sorry to see the sad state of affairs in anesthesiology. The damage is irreversible at this point.
 
Here's what I want to know (the search function won't let me search gasforums for some reason).

For those of you OUT of residency, preferably for 5-10+years, knowing what you know now about the profession if you were currently a graduating M4, would you still go into anesthesiology??? I'm curious to hear from both sides, especially the ones who are predicting the implosion of anesthesiology within 20 years.

If you wouldn't go into anesthesiology in 2007, what would you do instead?


I'd do it all over again.
 
At least one good has come from this CRNA mess. It has shown other medical specialties what the natural course is if you let a group of midlevels become dedicated to your specialty. No specialty should allow midlevels to obtain a degree or certificate that legitimizes them in that specialty. It allows them a way to identify with each other and organize. There is a fledging midlevel movement in radiology called RPA (1 school, 300 alumni). The radiologists are trying to squash it before it becomes a problem. The specialized midlevels can become a threat only if they have the support of the specialty.

I'm just sorry to see the sad state of affairs in anesthesiology. The damage is irreversible at this point.

The damage is not "irreversible" at this point. The Mid-Levels can be contained for the next three to five decades by promoting the use of AA's.
In 50 years the MD Anesthesiologist may be extinct anyway as advanced computers take over the specialty (see Star Trek sick bays). Thus, the specialty can be saved for at least thirty more years if not fifty by fighting the AANA, stopping all academic CRNA programs and promoting AA schools.
The window of opportunity for stopping the AANA is still open (for now anyway).

I am 100% convinced this solution will work to stop the AANA advancement on our specialty. Of course, it takes cooperation from the ASA and Academic Chairs to get this done. So, even though I beileve in the solution I do not believe the resolve exists to implement it.

As for Choosing Anesthesiology all over again I would Pass on it. This is not to say I am unhappy with the money, the hours, the job or the specialty.
Anesthesiology has been very, very good to me personally and financially.
My Residency training was Outstanding and the best experience of my life.
However, the AANA Independence Issue combined with the Medicare reimbursement rate (CRNA level pay) would steer me to my second choice:
Cardiology. There are no Mid-Levels doing Interventional Cardiology and the future looks bright for the specialty. This would be my choice today and others may choose something else. Cardiology is not a lifestyle specialty and is very susceptible to Medicare cuts as well. But, there are no Nurses placing Stents or reading Echo's and I doubt there ever will be.

Those of you who are entering the specialty and those considering the field need to realize that we are not doomed yet. We are still in control of the our destiny and can still stem the tide of the AANA/CRNA Solo Practice Issue.
I view Medicare rates and CRNA "solo" practice as the same issue. If we want to be paid as a Physician we need to make sure a Physician is required for the care of the patient. The AANA has no business lobbying Medicare for anything. They are Nurses and less than 20% (I believe 10%) practice Independently. We have the means (Academic Programs) to replace a large number of CRNA's with AA's over the next 5 years. But, do we have the will and the vision to do so? Some fail to see the wisdom of another Mid-Level Provider in the operating room. Too bad, because the AA is the ONLY Mid-Level Provider to official recognize the value of a Board Certified Anesthesiologist. The AA is the ONLY Mid-Level provider to legally need a Board Certified Anesthesiologist to supervise them. In short, the AA is the best option we have for explaining to the Public and the government that we are essential to the care of patients in the operating room.
 
Great Choice. Those dudes work like dogs but really bring home the bacon.:thumbup:
 
But, do we have the will and the vision to do so?

If the ASA did, the CRNA's would never have gotten this powerful. The ASA failed in the past and I don't see why it would be any different in the future.

I think the AA's are just a stopgap measure. What happens when the AA numbers reach 1000, 10000, or 30000? Do you really think that they won't form their own political group or even ally with the CRNA's who may reverse their position and allow AA independence? I would support converting as many CRNA schools into AA ones asap though.

The immediate solution is to hit the CRNA's in the wallet. They're way overpaid for their education level. Reimbursement levels should recognize the exact service being rendered and reimburse accordingly. Is it anesthesiologist solo, CRNA supervised, or CRNA solo? The reimbursement levels should go down as you move away from the anesthesiologist. The CRNA's have been riding on the coattails of the anesthesiologist for too long and that needs to end. If the income potential decreases substantially, then fewer people will want to go to CRNA school. The CRNA's will have less money to contribute to their PAC. This solution is the first step in putting the CRNA's back in their rightful place.
 
"If the income potential decreases substantially, then fewer people will want to go to CRNA school."

That is not correct. I worked as a nurse before going back to medical school. Being a RN is almost the worst job you can think of subjecting someone to, especially a male. If you've been around nurses much you will realize that about 90 percent of them are always looking for something else to do with their lives. Many lack the initiative to do something about it but there are also many of them that will quit to do something else. Just look at the turnover on any floor or unit of any hospital and you will see what I mean. CRNA is the best option for the nurses to do. Back when I was considering CRNA vs going to medical school I think CRNAs were starting around 80K/yr and there were nurses banging down the doors trying to get into CRNA programs.

I personally do not know what the future holds for this CRNA vs MD mess. I was a strong enough appicant to get into almost any field of medicine and I still chose anesthesiology knowing full well the current political situation. It was the best fit for me and I would do it again. As a medical student you will have to strongly consider the CRNA political madness before going into anesthesia. It is very frustrating and unfortunately is a very real problem for anesthesiologist. I fell that the best way to fight it is to contribute to the ASA and for more anesthesiologist to speak up and let the ASA know what direction anesthesiologist would like for the ASA to take. The AANA is very powerful because they have close to 100 percent of CRNAs as members. This gives them alot of money to fight with and also gives them power by being able to say "we represent all CRNAs". I don't remember the exact percent of anesthesiologists that are members of the ASA but it is pathetic. I personally know an anesthesiologist who was previously a CRNA and she is a strong advocate of joining the ASA. Sure, the ASA has let things get out of hand but they can still do something about it by changing their strategies. Many people seem to be frustrated with the ASA but the ASA is the best means of fighting this that we have at this point.

Anyway, didn't mean to make this post so long. As to the OP's question, yes I would do it again. The "doom and gloom" arguments have been going on for years and will continue to go on for years to come. Also, as someone has pointed out, "doom and gloom" is not exclusive to anesthsia. There are lots of other areas in medicine where the midlevels are trying to take over and get full reimbursement and autonomy. I would suggest finding a field in medicine that you truely enjoy and going with that instead of trying to find the job with the best out look in the future. Nobody can tell what the future will hold. Also, I agree with the previous poster that the "safest" jobs to go into would be fields where nurses and midlevels will never get to take over. This includes many of the IM subspecialties (cards, GI, etc) and just about any surgery specialty.

Good luck with your decision.
 
"If the income potential decreases substantially, then fewer people will want to go to CRNA school."

That is not correct. I worked as a nurse before going back to medical school. Being a RN is almost the worst job you can think of subjecting someone to, especially a male. If you've been around nurses much you will realize that about 90 percent of them are always looking for something else to do with their lives. Many lack the initiative to do something about it but there are also many of them that will quit to do something else. Just look at the turnover on any floor or unit of any hospital and you will see what I mean. CRNA is the best option for the nurses to do. Back when I was considering CRNA vs going to medical school I think CRNAs were starting around 80K/yr and there were nurses banging down the doors trying to get into CRNA programs.

I personally do not know what the future holds for this CRNA vs MD mess. I was a strong enough appicant to get into almost any field of medicine and I still chose anesthesiology knowing full well the current political situation. It was the best fit for me and I would do it again. As a medical student you will have to strongly consider the CRNA political madness before going into anesthesia. It is very frustrating and unfortunately is a very real problem for anesthesiologist. I fell that the best way to fight it is to contribute to the ASA and for more anesthesiologist to speak up and let the ASA know what direction anesthesiologist would like for the ASA to take. The AANA is very powerful because they have close to 100 percent of CRNAs as members. This gives them alot of money to fight with and also gives them power by being able to say "we represent all CRNAs". I don't remember the exact percent of anesthesiologists that are members of the ASA but it is pathetic. I personally know an anesthesiologist who was previously a CRNA and she is a strong advocate of joining the ASA. Sure, the ASA has let things get out of hand but they can still do something about it by changing their strategies. Many people seem to be frustrated with the ASA but the ASA is the best means of fighting this that we have at this point.

Anyway, didn't mean to make this post so long. As to the OP's question, yes I would do it again. The "doom and gloom" arguments have been going on for years and will continue to go on for years to come. Also, as someone has pointed out, "doom and gloom" is not exclusive to anesthsia. There are lots of other areas in medicine where the midlevels are trying to take over and get full reimbursement and autonomy. I would suggest finding a field in medicine that you truely enjoy and going with that instead of trying to find the job with the best out look in the future. Nobody can tell what the future will hold. Also, I agree with the previous poster that the "safest" jobs to go into would be fields where nurses and midlevels will never get to take over. This includes many of the IM subspecialties (cards, GI, etc) and just about any surgery specialty.

Good luck with your decision.

The answer to the AANA/CRNA problem is the AA profession. AA's are committed to the ACT model and believe MD/DO's add value to the care of patients. The AANA believes that MD/DO's are over-priced and unnecessary to deliver Anesthesia. The AANA believes a CRNA is equivalent to an MD/DO and should have the right to practice Independently in all 50 States.

So, which Mid-Level Provider should we support? Which Mid-Level Provider should be based from our Academic Programs? Which Mid-Level provider is not going to take work away from future ASA members for at least THREE DECADES or more? Which Mid-level Provider is going to legally need you to supervise them in the operating room?

Yet, because of apathy and established CRNA programs our leadership chooses not to act. The answer is to take back control of the profession from the Nurses and the AANA. The ASA and Academic Chairs can still do this. It won't be easy and it won't be quick. But, if they started today in 5 years the AA profession would be in a much better position to make a dent in the AANA's armor. What are we waiting for?
 
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I would've been a CRNA.

Good money
Less time spent in training
No student loans over $100 grand
No need for malpractice insurance (the physician takes all responsibility)
Less threats to my license (in terms of lawsuits)
40-hour work week
Guaranteed lunch and dinner breaks, and anything else in between
Easier cases, more ASA I/II patients, more straightforward cases
If I can't get the IV or the A-line or the intubation, not to worry, I've got "MDA" to back me up

Great, thanks for depressing me, guys ...
 
I would've been a CRNA.

Good money
Less time spent in training
No student loans over $100 grand
No need for malpractice insurance (the physician takes all responsibility)
Less threats to my license (in terms of lawsuits)
40-hour work week
Guaranteed lunch and dinner breaks, and anything else in between
Easier cases, more ASA I/II patients, more straightforward cases
If I can't get the IV or the A-line or the intubation, not to worry, I've got "MDA" to back me up

Great, thanks for depressing me, guys ...

Malpractice Insurance runs about $3500 via the AANA.
 
Nah dude, I would have liked to have been one of those James Bond 007/MacGyver kind of dudes. Top secret shiit that only like Dick Cheney, Bush and the CIA know about. Unleashing bigtime mayhem on poor unsuspecting souls and governments. Regards, ----Zip
 
what's the outlook for peds anesthesia? can CRNAs work here?
 
Nah dude, I would have liked to have been one of those James Bond 007/MacGyver kind of dudes. Top secret shiit that only like Dick Cheney, Bush and the CIA know about. Unleashing bigtime mayhem on poor unsuspecting souls and governments. Regards, ----Zip

Well....if we're talking something not medicine related.....F-18 fighter jock
 
Nah dude, I would have liked to have been one of those James Bond 007/MacGyver kind of dudes. Top secret shiit that only like Dick Cheney, Bush and the CIA know about. Unleashing bigtime mayhem on poor unsuspecting souls and governments. Regards, ----Zip

:laugh:
 
i would definitely do it again (i am in interventional pain management). my advise is to do what you like. No one can guarantee what will happen in the future. However, I CAN guarantee that you will be completely miserable if you pick a specialty for the wrong reasons.
 
FYI: The most worthwhile information was given to you in the first post. You really dont need to read any further.
 
I'd be a professional snowboarder in the winter and mountain biker in the summer. Nothin better than jumpin out of Heli on the top of some mountain peak that has never been ridin b/4. Stompin it and naming the mountain after myself when I'm done.

Or i'd like to have gone into demolition. Blowing up buildings and stuff. now that would be a rush. I'd start with the ASA's house.:smuggrin:
 
Now if I had to stick with a field in medicine, no question about it--Plastic surgery. There are guys out there doing 8-10 breast augs/day and driving Maybachs, That's like 40-50Gs for a good 8-10 hours of surgery and that's straight up cash, check,or credit card. Money is already banked before the surgeon makes an incision-- SWEET! "Insurance?--we don't take no stinkin' insurance!" Regards --Zippy
 
The immediate solution is to hit the CRNA's in the wallet. They're way overpaid for their education level. Reimbursement levels should recognize the exact service being rendered and reimburse accordingly. Is it anesthesiologist solo, CRNA supervised, or CRNA solo? The reimbursement levels should go down as you move away from the anesthesiologist. The CRNA's have been riding on the coattails of the anesthesiologist for too long and that needs to end. If the income potential decreases substantially, then fewer people will want to go to CRNA school. The CRNA's will have less money to contribute to their PAC. This solution is the first step in putting the CRNA's back in their rightful place.


that is the understatement of the year.. i agree, medicare should reimburse based on education and expertise. If you are not board certified, you should be paid less, if you are taking tonsils out and you are not an ENT you should get less. IF you are a CRNA giving anesthesia.. your reimbursement should be 1/4 that of an board certified anesthesiologist. I agree.. crnas are WAY WAY WAY overpaid.....
 
I would absolutely not pick anesthesiology, and I definitely would not go into Medicine. Now if I had to do medicine, I would prolly pick something that I can have more autonomy over my schedule such as surgery plastics even podiatrists and dentists have more autonomy over their day to day schedule than anesthesiologists... not that I dont like anesthesiology.... I like it a lot.. I dont like the politics of medicine and anesthesiology,,, and i dont like the fact that I dont have less autonomy then the podiatrist.. My friend is a dentist last summer he wanted most of the summer off.. so thast what he did.. he scaled back his appointments.. and voila.. he had most of the summer off.. thats nice.. you cant put a price tag on that...
 
sooo..are you saying that if someone has additional qualifications (like me) with extra boards...Critical Care Medicine...should get paid MORE than you for the same anesthetic?

What about the people who are boarded in say...internal medicine, peds, or surgery also? Should they get paid more too for the same anesthetic?

What about MBA degrees like Volatile's and my Mentors?

Or PhD's in molecular biology or other stuff?
Or CPAs.....Should they all get paid more than you for the same anesthetic?

Or the CRNA who goes on and becomes a MD?
 
sooo..are you saying that if someone has additional qualifications (like me) with extra boards...Critical Care Medicine...should get paid MORE than you for the same anesthetic?

What about the people who are boarded in say...internal medicine, peds, or surgery also? Should they get paid more too for the same anesthetic?

What about MBA degrees like Volatile's and my Mentors?

Or PhD's in molecular biology or other stuff?
Or CPAs.....Should they all get paid more than you for the same anesthetic?

Or the CRNA who goes on and becomes a MD?

what i mean is that... a board certified physician should get reimbursed more than a non board certified physician. and it happens.. If a FP doctor does a pelvic exam, he/ should not be reimbursed the same way than a specialist(obstetrician).he doesnt have the expertise.

an mba degree or a cpa have nothing to do with the expertise of giving an anesthetic
a phd in molecular biology has nothing to do with giving an anesthetic

CRNAs should be reimbursed less.. because they have less expertise...

I hope you understand that...

do you ever think before you post? you post like you have NO cortical inhibition. its like you had a limbic stroke.
 
what i mean is that... a board certified physician should get reimbursed more than a non board certified physician. and it happens.. If a FP doctor does a pelvic exam, he/ should not be reimbursed the same way than a specialist(obstetrician).he doesnt have the expertise.

an mba degree or a cpa have nothing to do with the expertise of giving an anesthetic
a phd in molecular biology has nothing to do with giving an anesthetic

CRNAs should be reimbursed less.. because they have less expertise...

I hope you understand that...

do you ever think before you post? you post like you have NO cortical inhibition. its like you had a limbic stroke.

OK,...I;m boarded in Critical Care....a board awarded by the ABA...definitely has something to do with taking care of patients....should I get paid more than you????

What about someone boarded in Pediatrics and Anesthesiology and doing peds anestheisa...should they get paid more than you?

What about someone boarded in Surgery AND anesthesiology...I know a few...should they get paid more than you?
 
OK,...I;m boarded in Critical Care....a board awarded by the ABA...definitely has something to do with taking care of patients....should I get paid more than you????

yes when taking care of asa 4 and greater patients because that is your expertise.

What about someone boarded in Pediatrics and Anesthesiology and doing peds anestheisa...should they get paid more than you?
Yes,when taking care of pediatric patients.

What about someone boarded in Surgery AND anesthesiology...I know a few...should they get paid more than you?
NO, you cant do suregery and anesthesia at the same time.

does that clear things up for you military?
 
One who is trained and boarded in surgery can assist the surgeon in making decisions IN the OR........continue with surgery or not....change surgical plan or not.....

So they should get paid more than you......because they intimately more knowledgeable than you or me than what is being done to the patient...

What about the psychiatrist who is boarded in anesthesia....should he get paid more for anesthetizing patients with DSM IV diagnoses????

I'll bet that psychiatrist would say so....

As you have stated already....any patient...even ASA 1 can go down hill in a hurry in the OR......so when they become critically illl....then should you turn the case over to me.....or better yet.....you should always be paid less than me than?????

Your proposal is ludicrous.
 
If IM gen prac was paid 400k/yr to start, and worked 50 hrs w/10 weeks vacation, I still wouldn't even begin to consider it as an option :barf: . If you're good at what you do, the money will come... even with all the predicted cuts, gloom-and-doom crap I've been hearing about.
 
One who is trained and boarded in surgery can assist the surgeon in making decisions IN the OR........continue with surgery or not....change surgical plan or not.....

So they should get paid more than you......because they intimately more knowledgeable than you or me than what is being done to the patient...

What about the psychiatrist who is boarded in anesthesia....should he get paid more for anesthetizing patients with DSM IV diagnoses????

I'll bet that psychiatrist would say so....

As you have stated already....any patient...even ASA 1 can go down hill in a hurry in the OR......so when they become critically illl....then should you turn the case over to me.....or better yet.....you should always be paid less than me than?????

Your proposal is ludicrous.


dude,

what does a psychiatrist have to do with anesthesia? are you gonna play sigmund freud while the patient is asleep? are you going to send subliminal messages to the patient while asleep.

peds anesthesia and critical care directly brings expertise to the area that you are dealing with. you have to reward physicians for going the extra mile for the sake of patients.. otherwise everyone would take chemistry and physics for dummies go to nursing school for 2 years and start putting people to sleep and get the same reimbursement.

and you my friend are the one who is ludicrous.. and so is your mentor..
 
If I had to do it all over again, one word my friends:
Orthodontics
 
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