Would you still do it if you didn't get paid as much?

[lookslikerain]

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Well then you can lobby congress for 50k salaries across the board, I bet the medical establishment will be thrilled. 👍

Right, because I talked so much in my post about how everyone else should feel. 👎

 

[Pkboi24]

Alright people, I didn't want this to get into a flame fest, let's discuss things in a civil manner. No need for hostility.

 

[MrBurns10]

Wanting to make a decent living is about more than just wanting a hot car or a big house, it's also about being able to send your kids to whatever college they want, sending your kids to sleepaway summer camp, being able to travel the world in your free time, etc. I'm not at all implying that $50,000 is poverty level or that you can't do anything with that kind of salary (because that's ridiculous), but if I'm making the sacrifice of not being able to attend all my kids' sports games because I'm working long, odd hours, I certainly want to be giving them as many opportunities as I can with my salary. If I'm going to be making $50,000, I'd choose a job that earns the same amount but gave me more time to spend with my kids (most likely still within the healthcare field).

 

[medhacker]

This thread makes me smile. Ahh the good old days. You remember the 40k threads, mhack?

By the way, seems very civil now, just watch out...

LOL yeah I remember, what a topic I tell you...
A more interesting question is Should the qualified students not willing to do it for X< or = 50K cede their spots to the qualified students willing to do it? - now we are talkin'

this time I will watch from the curb and get ready to sell my popcorn 😎

 

[Anastasis]

I'll take a medium - at the rate these threads go, it'll be closed before I could finish a large.

 

[DrWorkNeverDone]

I would do it....I would even do it for less, you have to imagine, if you are making 50000, and then your hubby is making 50000. Then you are still around a doctors wage 🙂 I would be happy to do it for 30000 a year, I could be comfortable, and raise a family. I don't need all the fancy stuff, like a BMW and Million dollar home, with the gucci. I am fine with target brand, toyota, apartment living 🙂 think about it, I dont even have to do my lawn 🙂

 

[Pkboi24]

I would do it....I would even do it for less, you have to imagine, if you are making 50000, and then your hubby is making 50000. Then you are still around a doctors wage 🙂 I would be happy to do it for 30000 a year, I could be comfortable, and raise a family. I don't need all the fancy stuff, like a BMW and Million dollar home, with the gucci. I am fine with target brand, toyota, apartment living 🙂 think about it, I dont even have to do my lawn 🙂

Yeah, but what if you aren't married?

BTW, Target is pretty high-class if you ask me. I can't afford to shop there... 😳

 

[MarzMD]

Most of you guys are crazy, and part of the reason why Doc's wages will keep going down.

 

[Pkboi24]

Most of you guys are crazy, and part of the reason why Doc's wages will keep going down.

Wait, so you're saying that the reason physician earnings are decreasing is due to their willingness to work for less?

 

[MarzMD]

Wait, so you're saying that the reason physician earnings are decreasing is due to their willingness to work for less?

No, Im saying that future physicians being complacent will only make the problem worse. Who else is going to stick up for us? We are not only volunteering, but paying more and more to be shat on for the next 7+ years. Forgive me if I expect to make more than the average american. This isnt a society where everyone gets paid the same. More work/training should = more pay in the way our society is set up.

 

[Pkboi24]

No, Im saying that future physicians being complacent will only make the problem worse. Who else is going to stick up for us? We are not only volunteering, but paying more and more to be shat on for the next 7+ years. Forgive me if I expect to make more than the average american. This isnt a communist society.

I agree with you. People should get paid accordingly based upon their ability/hardwork.

Now for a more serious question.

Did you watch that Proactive commercial with P Diddy too!? That was soo funny.

P Diddy: "Yeh...Proactive moisturizes my situation, you know, preserves my sexy."

I love how rappers seem to have the ability to not make any sense, yet still retain the ability to make us understand what they might be attempting to say.

 

[MarzMD]

Ha, yea thats where I got it from. And Im sure he was so proud after saying that, thinking he just coined a phrase.

 

[Rafa]

There needs to be a Godwin's equivalent for communism. You use the phrase "this is communism!" or "we aren't in a communist society" to support an argument and BAM! Thread closed.

 

[WestTexasRambler]

I would be a PA and make $75K for 40 hours a week and 4 weeks of vacation per year. 😉

 

[medhacker]

More work/training should = more pay in the way our society is set up.

hmm in that case migrant farm workers, construction workers, CNAs, and others should be making big moolah, if anyone works hard is these people 🙂

 

[SanDiegoSOD]

No way. I'm not working 80+hrs/week for several years during residency followed by 60-70 hours for a few years while establishing a practice and ~50 hours for the rest of my life for a paltry $50k.

A sidenote - I work for a financial planning firm right now that has several physician clients. You know what almost every single one of these doctors have told me when they learn that I start medical school soon? "Consider dermatology or radiology." After they say that I chuckle a little and wait for the punchline. But it doesnt come, because they're not joking - many practicing physicians wish they were practicine the so called "lifestyle" specialties. When I tell them I'm considering Emergency medicine, they have all approved of it, citing EM's predictable schedule. Most of these physicians love their jobs and are happy they can practice and save lives, but even more than their jobs, they love their family, friends, and hobbies, and wish they had more time outside of the hospital/clinic to spend with each one of those things.

Why am I rambling on like this? I'm not exactly sure, but I know that I'm going into medicine with what I consider a healthy attitude (maybe not what others on SDN consider healthy, or morally proper) - a desire to help others, alongside a desire to make a lot of money and have time to spend with the people and things that I love. F*ck being married to a hospital for $50k.

 

[MirrorTodd]

Anyone ever wonder why the military has a hard time filling its ranks? I see parallels here. I love to serve my country, but the amount of B.S. one goes through everyday makes it very hard to be motivated. It's the same with being a doctor. Do you really want to want to study as hard as people do for 8+ years and make as much as someone who studied half as hard for 4 years or got a job straight out of high school and worked there way up for 4 years?

 

[MarzMD]

....
Why am I rambling on like this? I'm not exactly sure, but I know that I'm going into medicine with what I consider a healthy attitude (maybe not what others on SDN consider healthy, or morally proper) - a desire to help others, alongside a desire to make a lot of money and have time to spend with the people and things that I love. F*ck being married to a hospital for $50k.

And here I was starting to think that everyone in the pre-allo forum was dillusional. You have restored my faith.

 

[DrBowtie]

No way. I'm not working 80+hrs/week for several years during residency followed by 60-70 hours for a few years while establishing a practice and ~50 hours for the rest of my life for a paltry $50k.

A sidenote - I work for a financial planning firm right now that has several physician clients. You know what almost every single one of these doctors have told me when they learn that I start medical school soon? "Consider dermatology or radiology." After they say that I chuckle a little and wait for the punchline. But it doesnt come, because they're not joking - many practicing physicians wish they were practicine the so called "lifestyle" specialties. When I tell them I'm considering Emergency medicine, they have all approved of it, citing EM's predictable schedule. Most of these physicians love their jobs and are happy they can practice and save lives, but even more than their jobs, they love their family, friends, and hobbies, and wish they had more time outside of the hospital/clinic to spend with each one of those things.

Why am I rambling on like this? I'm not exactly sure, but I know that I'm going into medicine with what I consider a healthy attitude (maybe not what others on SDN consider healthy, or morally proper) - a desire to help others, alongside a desire to make a lot of money and have time to spend with the people and things that I love. F*ck being married to a hospital for $50k.

I've got the Radiology or Spine Surgery from quite a few. For some reason the pure altruism they had disappears once the house and car payments come in.

 

[Anastasis]

Anyone ever wonder why the military has a hard time filling its ranks? I see parallels here. I love to serve my country, but the amount of B.S. one goes through everyday makes it very hard to be motivated. It's the same with being a doctor. Do you really want to want to study as hard as people do for 8+ years and make as much as someone who studied half as hard for 4 years or got a job straight out of high school and worked there way up for 4 years?

Nice point.

 

[MarzMD]

I've got the Radiology or Spine Surgery from quite a few. For some reason the pure altruism they had disappears once the house and car payments come in.

On a more important note, from what I see on the news the KY derby looks like fun. Is it really just one big tailgate party? Hopefully I dont have a test any time around it.

 

[DrBowtie]

On a more important note, from what I see on the news the KY derby looks like fun. Is it really just one big tailgate party? Hopefully I dont have a test any time around it.

DUDE!!!! You are going next year. I'll come down to Lex and kidnapp if I have to.

 

[Centinel]

If all the lawyers will work for $35,000, I'll work for $50,000.

 

[MarzMD]

DUDE!!!! You are going next year. I'll come down to Lex and kidnapp if I have to.

Im there.

 

[CTSballer11]

And here I was starting to think that everyone in the pre-allo forum was dillusional. You have restored my faith.

same here, finally some reasonable people have spoken up. I just cannot understand what fool wants to make a paltry 50k as a physician. it boggles my mind, look at the pre-dent forum, those guys readily admit that money is important to them, this might explain why dentistry is thriving and will continue to thrive.

 

[Vox Animo]

Don't worry, come year 4 and residency all people will change there opinoins about money.

Doctors have always been highly paid and highly trained for the best 5000 years or so. If you don't pay decent, you won't attract the best and brightest, and there goes the field.

My brother is going to be a middle school teacher, at 23 he will be making more than i will as resident at 27, by the time he is 30, he will be making over 50, and he is district isnt exactly the highest paying.

By the time hes 30, he will have a decent tenured career, benefits, retirement started, 3 months vactation, and a downpayment on a house.

I will have 300K in debt. Sorry 50000 won't do. Even 100K is pushing it. On 50K, a single income family could not send more than one kid to school, pay for a car, and a house in a decent area.

Im not MS1 yet, be im realistic.

 

[Pkboi24]

Don't worry, come year 4 and residency all people will change there opinoins about money.

Doctors have always been highly paid and highly trained for the best 5000 years or so. If you don't pay decent, you won't attract the best and brightest, and there goes the field.

My brother is going to be a middle school teacher, at 23 he will be making more than i will as resident at 27, by the time he is 30, he will be making over 50, and he is district isnt exactly the highest paying.

By the time hes 30, he will have a decent tenured career, benefits, retirement started, 3 months vactation, and a downpayment on a house.

I will have 300K in debt. Sorry 50000 won't do. Even 100K is pushing it. On 50K, a single income family could not send more than one kid to school, pay for a car, and a house in a decent area.

Im not MS1 yet, be im realistic.

Hello, I am the OP.

I understand what you're saying. However, I believe that in the hypothetical situation medical school expenses and malpractice insurance decreases proportionally. Basically, it's a question of would you work the ungodly hours for $50,000.

I personally don't think I would. They'd have to give me a 40 hr week with at least 2 weeks paid vacation. I want to save the world too, but I don't love them as much as I will my family. The way I look at it, it's like giving to charity. Just because you don't give them the shirt off your back, that doesn't necessarily make you a bad person. You have to manage your sacrifices, and how much you decide to give is an individual preference. Strict 9-5 office hours vs. saving babies in Africa on Christmas.

 

[Ross434]

It's not all about the hard work and training equaling reward.

Professors and science researchers probably work as hard as physicians, (ie: 4-6 years of grad school, 3-4 years of 'residency' while looking for tenure),for the same amount of time, in their schooling, and they get paid jack. However, it is free. If physicians education were free, wouldnt it be similar? Now i know you may say "physicians have more responsibility" , but, professors and researchers take responsibility for millions of research dollars, which represents a lot of hard work by thousands of people (the money invested), and they are responsible for the minds of the future generations, and the level of knowledge in our society (which, in my mind, is as important as our health).

The pay here is low, the responsibility high, and the effort expended and schooling endured is enormous! , yet i dont see any shortage of people looking to become professors and scientists.

 

[Vox Animo]

Hello, I am the OP.

I understand what you're saying. However, I believe that in the hypothetical situation medical school expenses and malpractice insurance decreases proportionally. Basically, it's a question of would you work the ungodly hours for $50,000.

I personally don't think I would. They'd have to give me a 40 hr week with at least 2 weeks paid vacation. I want to save the world too, but I don't love them as much as I will my family. The way I look at it, it's like giving to charity. Just because you don't give them the shirt off your back, that doesn't necessarily make you a bad person. You have to manage your sacrifices, and how much you decide to give is an individual preference. Strict 9-5 office hours vs. saving babies in Africa on Christmas.

All other things considered, no i wouldn't.

 

[fyi411]

Yep, 50k/yr is doable. I'm not in this for the money.

go yankees 👍

 

[QofQuimica]

a very difficult question to answer, for now i'll say yes, but there're just so many things to consider.

By lowering the cost along with the payout of medical education, you're going to decrease the competition and even the quality of students that go into this field. Also, because the cost is low, i think people would take medicine less seriously as a career than they do now, because if they don't like it, they don't have to be committed. thus the students entering this career might not be as dedicated to begin with. As such, i don't know if i would like my peer group as a physician in this hypothetical universe.

although it greatly saddens me to admit this, money and respect are pretty intertwined in our society. Just look at teachers and professors, who have such an impact on people everyday and yet, aren't paid well, and aren't well respected. being paid less is associated with being less in demand and thus the dynamic between consumers (patients) and producers (doctors) would change entirely.

my point is, money is so deeply ingrained in our world that you can't just change the fiscal aspect of medicine without repercussions on the social or emotional aspects.

That's an interesting argument, but I am not sure that I buy it. I could just as easily make the opposite argument and say that med students would be MORE committed. Think about this: A Ph.D. on average takes 5-6 years for an experimental degree, which is significantly longer than the usual 4-year M.D. degree. The Ph.D. will almost certainly make much less money when s/he's finished than s/he would as an M.D. Competition to get into many, if not most, graduate programs is nil compared to competition to get into med school. However, if you look at the type of people who are drawn to go to graduate school and earn Ph.D.s, you would be hard-pressed to make the case that they are not committed to careers in research, or that they aren't top quality students. I WILL grant you that many pre-grads don't have GPAs that are as high as those of pre-meds, but I believe that's more a function of the lower competitiveness, not a difference in "quality." In fact, I would hypothesize that if there's any significant intelligence gap, the average Ph.D. student is probably SMARTER than the average M.D. student. But at any rate, they're definitely not LESS intelligent. So maybe med students would become more like grad students in the OP's hypothetical, where only the most dedicated and altruistic among us would wish to become physicians.

 

[QofQuimica]

It's not all about the hard work and training equaling reward.

Professors and science researchers probably work as hard as physicians, (ie: 4-6 years of grad school, 3-4 years of 'residency' while looking for tenure),for the same amount of time, in their schooling, and they get paid jack. However, it is free. If physicians education were free, wouldnt it be similar? Now i know you may say "physicians have more responsibility" , but, professors and researchers take responsibility for millions of research dollars, which represents a lot of hard work by thousands of people (the money invested), and they are responsible for the minds of the future generations, and the level of knowledge in our society (which, in my mind, is as important as our health).

The pay here is low, the responsibility high, and the effort expended and schooling endured is enormous! , yet i dont see any shortage of people looking to become professors and scientists.

Heh, didn't read your post before writing mine.

 

[Oculus Sinistra]

Hypothetical situation: You get paid $50,000/year but the price of med school and malpractice insurance decreases proportionally and residents get paid just as much as full-fledged doctors. The economy does not change. You will be living the lifestyle of someone on a $50,000 salary. Would you still do it? Why?

Yes. As long as you can see patients and pay your bills, it's fine.

 

[VWBeetlegrl]

If you truly love what you are doing, money gets to be less important. Being able to live on your income must be realistic too of course. As I've been told by the doctor I shadowed last year, if you're going into medicine for the money: do something else. There are a lot of jobs you can do that are less work for the same or more money. Regardless of whether or not you're in it for the money, you're gonna work your butt off, so keep that in mind.

Find what you love to do, and then figure out a way to get paid for it.

 

[DrWorkNeverDone]

Yeah, but what if you aren't married?

BTW, Target is pretty high-class if you ask me. I can't afford to shop there... 😳

LOL but with 50000 I could finally afford to shop there 🙂 I agree, I buy my clothes off the walmart shelf 🙂 As for not being married, still good pay, probably wouldnt go all out at Target though 🙂

 

[8744]

$50,000 is not as much as you folks think. You only think it's a lot because the most you've ever made is that one wild, crazy summer when you were a Frappacino consultant at Starbucks and pulled in, like, six bucks an hour in tips.

Oh yeah. I finish four years of residency and get a $6000 dollar a year raise? Whoo hooo! My lovely and long-suffering wife whose friends drive BMWs and live in houses that are almost paid for is going to be thrilled.

Thrilled I tell you!

 

[8744]

Why, that's 500 extra bucks a month. How on earth are we going to spend that kind of money? It's impossible, I tell ya'.

 

[gujuDoc]

The only way that a regular 50k or 60k salary would do is if they greatly reduced the price of med school education and other such considerations. I don't expect to become rich overnight and think people who think like that need to grow up. But I don't think I'd take it as far to say that we should be paid as little as 50k after being in 100k-200k+ debt from medical school.

 

[8744]

Let me badger the obvious, beat the dead horse, belabour the point, flog the concept or whatever is the cliche du jour: There is a huge difference in lifestyle and quality of life between $50,000 per year and $150,000 per year, the latter being the usual starting salary for most primary care specialties. (This is your take-home, by the way, as when you work as an employee of a group like most newly minted Doctors the group pays your malpractice insurance. You also get the usual health, 401K and other benefits of most employees in any profession so these things are a wash.)

Um, like one is three times the other. Even considering the higher tax bracket. If you can make ends meet on your net pay from $50,000 which usually works out to around $35,000 in take home then anything over that is gravy.

 

[Slide]

I find a lot of the responses unrealistic...sure it may sound good to you in college because mommy and daddy takes care of the big fees, but after med school and residency, when you have to take it upon yourself to pay for your dues, family, and loans, you may find that 50k salary very meager. I really would not do it if I got paid less than a nurse while doing as much, or even more, work that required 4 years of school and 3+ years of residency. I would just work in a job that would pay well, and I would just volunteer or give money to charity to help others. I mean, I would enjoy being a doctor, regardless of salary, but it's really not feasible, especially with inflation rising and me hopefully working in a city, where the standard of living may be higher.

 

[Vox Animo]

I have been hearing that some PCPs are coming out of residency only making 60-80K starting. But every website I look at has says they are around 140 on average. So i guess your getting the lower pay, but more loans. The worst of both scenarios

Which figures is realistic?

 

[gujuDoc]

I find a lot of the responses unrealistic...sure it may sound good to you in college because mommy and daddy takes care of the big fees, but after med school and residency, when you have to take it upon yourself to pay for your dues, family, and loans, you may find that 50k salary very meager. I really would not do it if I got paid less than a nurse while doing as much, or even more, work that required 4 years of school and 3+ years of residency. I would just work in a job that would pay well, and I would just volunteer or give money to charity to help others. I mean, I would enjoy being a doctor, regardless of salary, but it's really not feasible, especially with inflation rising and me hopefully working in a city, where the standard of living may be higher.

You make a good point about 50k being less then a nurse. For the kind of hours that doctors work and all the debt they incur, I think its unrealistic. That's what I was saying in my previous post.

 

[Law2Doc]

I have been hearing that some PCPs are coming out of residency only making 60-80K starting. But every website I look at has says they are around 140 on average. So i guess your getting the lower pay, but more loans. The worst of both scenarios

Which figures is realistic?

As I mentioned above, folks who return the surveys tend to not be at the lower end of the spectrum, so those "averages" are always biased to the high end. I have heard of physicians taking positions paying substantially less than six digits post residency, although clearly they are on the lower end of the spectrum.

 

[etf]

okay, time to be a jacka$$: considering the brutal training/schedule, i wouldn't want to be a surgeon for less than 300k.

 

[Beau Geste]

Let me badger the obvious, beat the dead horse, belabour the point, flog the concept or whatever is the cliche du jour: There is a huge difference in lifestyle and quality of life between $50,000 per year and $150,000 per year, the latter being the usual starting salary for most primary care specialties. (This is your take-home, by the way, as when you work as an employee of a group like most newly minted Doctors the group pays your malpractice insurance. You also get the usual health, 401K and other benefits of most employees in any profession so these things are a wash.)

Um, like one is three times the other. Even considering the higher tax bracket. If you can make ends meet on your net pay from $50,000 which usually works out to around $35,000 in take home then anything over that is gravy.

I love you.

Seriously, I know where you are coming from, especially since you've been through that which we must not mention and know how the hours can be and the crap you have to put up with as a doc.

From what I've experienced so far, the altruistic people who would do this job for peanuts have never had the joyous opportunity of being a full-fledged doctor and taking all the crap that comes their way.

You know what? CNAs, nurses, etc. etc. that have been mentioned as hard-working people do not typically devote their lives to their patients, go every third night and third weekend without sleep, spend $100K plus on an education, and give 11-14 years (UG, medschool and residency) of their life to be able to help other's lives.

I call B.S. to anyone who says they would accept a $50K salary as a doctor. There are a lot of things I love to do that would make $50K or more, and have better hours and lifestyle. I'd be a scuba instructor before I'd be a doctor for $50K.

Can we PLEASE bury this horse and live with the fact that it is OK to do something you love AND make great money?

 

[gujuDoc]

I love you.

Seriously, I know where you are coming from, especially since you've been through that which we must not mention and know how the hours can be and the crap you have to put up with as a doc.

From what I've experienced so far, the altruistic people who would do this job for peanuts have never had the joyous opportunity of being a full-fledged doctor and taking all the crap that comes their way.

You know what? CNAs, nurses, etc. etc. that have been mentioned as hard-working people do not typically devote their lives to their patients, go every third night and third weekend without sleep, spend $100K plus on an education, and give 11-14 years (UG, medschool and residency) of their life to be able to help other's lives.

I call B.S. to anyone who says they would accept a $50K salary as a doctor. There are a lot of things I love to do that would make $50K or more, and have better hours and lifestyle. I'd be a scuba instructor before I'd be a doctor for $50K.

Can we PLEASE bury this horse and live with the fact that it is OK to do something you love AND make great money?

Great post. Unless they make working conditiosn better, and cost of educatiion miraculously greatly reduces, then there is no justification of a low salary for something you've dedicated 12+ years to become,, when most people are working after 4 years of undergrad or 4 years plus 1-2 extra for a masters.

 

[pcguy2]

Don't say that altruism is completely dead. Although 99% of people wouldn't do it if it was 50k, there are those who devote their entire lives to helping others for almost no money. Theres gota be atleast a handful of these kind of people.

 

[Vox Animo]

Don't say that altruism is completely dead. Although 99% of people wouldn't do it if it was 50k, there are those who devote their entire lives to helping others for almost no money. Theres gota be atleast a handful of these kind of people.

A handful yes. Enough to run the American Medical field? Nope.

 

[Pkboi24]

A handful yes. Enough to run the American Medical field? Nope.

Agreed.

These people are the people that work for non-profits, become civil-rights lawyers, and save malarial children from third world countries. Basically, they're saints and most people will never be anything like them.

There's a spectrum. At one end is pure altruism and at the other is pure self-interest. Most people fall in the middle somewhere, with 1 being altruism and 10 being self-interest. I would say I'm around a 4.