WTF is up with Wayne State exams?

[Flobber]

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80 people failed biochem... that's insane. And 50 people failed the last Phys exam. Anyone else have stats like these at their schools?

 

[fun8stuff]

80 people failed biochem... that's insane. And 50 people failed the last Phys exam. Anyone else have stats like these at their schools?

You can't forget to take into consideration their class size: 260-270 people.
But still... to have 20-30% of the class to fail exams seems outrageous... of the 4 people i know there, they have all failed one class- and these are people who had 3.7-3.98 GPAs/ 30-32 MCAT going in (not that 4 people is a large sample or anything).

 

[fun8stuff]

Is it typical for a school to have 20-30% of their students fail a class? Is this normal?

 

[chameleonknight]

No, the school was up in arms because we had about 30 people fail at least one class last semester.

However, I would say at least 80% of the class failed at least one gross anatomy exam.

 

[ddmo]

These numbers are misleading. Although that many people failed the exam, not many will fail the class. The truth is whether you pass or not isn't dependent on your individual statistical averages on each exam, which is the criteria you are using to say they have failed. Moreso, it is based on whether you are one of a certain number of people at the bottom of the class. They typically decide the number of people they expect to fail (below 75%, so don't worry), and as long as you aren't at the bottom of the class you will not fail. The pass rate in anatomy was much below 400. So, just don't be in the last 10-20 people and you are fine.

With that being said, biochem is known to be the biggest weeder of first year.

 

[dancinjenn]

That test was absolutely ridiculous though. After all of the time they spent on pathways and emphasizing all the intermediates, then turn around and ask much more random questions is...god, I don't even have a word for it...sickening. Brooks especially spent all of his lectures going over picture after picture of a pathway and then all of his questions were about the last 5 minutes of each class where he talked about drug interactions. AARRGGHH!!!

 

[fun8stuff]

These numbers are misleading. Although that many people failed the exam, not many will fail the class. The truth is whether you pass or not isn't dependent on your individual statistical averages on each exam, which is the criteria you are using to say they have failed. Moreso, it is based on whether you are one of a certain number of people at the bottom of the class. They typically decide the number of people they expect to fail (below 75%, so don't worry), and as long as you aren't at the bottom of the class you will not fail. The pass rate in anatomy was much below 400. So, just don't be in the last 10-20 people and you are fine.

With that being said, biochem is known to be the biggest weeder of first year.

thanks for clearing things up

 

[thackl]

This happens at tech once in a while too. Last yr the Phys prof's had a knee-jerk reaction based on the previous yrs performance on the NBME (turned out to be a mistake) and wrote a killer first test that had a class average in the 60's. In the end, the dept head reviewed the test and threw out about 15 questions.

Most schools won't fail more than 10% on the class and they usually don't even want that many. Just see where you are on the bell curve and make sure it's not bottom 10%. Good luck.

 

[Flobber]

That test was absolutely ridiculous though. After all of the time they spent on pathways and emphasizing all the intermediates, then turn around and ask much more random questions is...god, I don't even have a word for it...sickening. Brooks especially spent all of his lectures going over picture after picture of a pathway and then all of his questions were about the last 5 minutes of each class where he talked about drug interactions. AARRGGHH!!!

How about Brusilow dipping into his lecture slides instead of sticking with the 15,000 pages of notes we had to memorize. What the hell was the point of asking us about tetrahydrofolate synthesis?!

BTW, I'm not one of the ones who failed, I'm just pissed that they wrote an exam like that.

 

[MD'05]

You guys are gonna get majorly screwed in your first two years. Hook up with an upperclassman and get your hands on the "old exams" and other "study guides". They will always test on those items that are at the end of the notes, in presentation slides, in the unreadable graphics on the page, etc. They want the majority of the class to fail to make it easier for the children of alumni and large contributors to honor.

 

[MD'05]

How about Brusilow dipping into his lecture slides instead of sticking with the 15,000 pages of notes we had to memorize. What the hell was the point of asking us about tetrahydrofolate synthesis?!

BTW, I'm not one of the ones who failed, I'm just pissed that they wrote an exam like that.

THF synthesis is extremely important. Are you reviewing the key points from First Aid for step 1 yet? If not you should be.

 

[Flobber]

THF synthesis is extremely important. Are you reviewing the key points from First Aid for step 1 yet? If not you should be.

Thanks a mil. Despite its "extreme importance", the mechanism of THF synthesis wasn't even mentioned in our notes. And there were about 300 pages of perfectly good cycles and pathways and enzymes and intermediates for them to screw us with... isn't that enough for them? Is it really necessary to make us memorize all that and then throw in questions that are completely unrelated?

 

[sambo]

Is it really necessary to make us memorize all that and then throw in questions that are completely unrelated?

This is THE underlying principle of medical school. It is universal. You can study every resource availible: lecture slides, textbooks, review books, old tests, and they will find a way to put items on the test that you have never heard of. Sometimes, they even put things on the test that they point-blank said would not be on the test. Seriously, I think they do it to screw with your psyche.

 

[Flobber]

This is THE underlying principle of medical school. It is universal. You can study every resource availible: lecture slides, textbooks, review books, old tests, and they will find a way to put items on the test that you have never heard of. Sometimes, they even put things on the test that they point-blank said would not be on the test. Seriously, I think they do it to screw with your psyche.

Its nice to know that they're on our side...

 

[ddmo]

How about Brusilow dipping into his lecture slides instead of sticking with the 15,000 pages of notes we had to memorize. What the hell was the point of asking us about tetrahydrofolate synthesis?!

BTW, I'm not one of the ones who failed, I'm just pissed that they wrote an exam like that.

Didn't you get the word that testing out of his notes was Brusilow's M.O.

 

[Flobber]

Didn't you get the word that testing out of his notes was Brusilow's M.O.

Yeah, I did. I guess I just didn't believe it lol. Won't make that mistake again...

 

[Dr.Evil1]

I remember how much I hated Brooks. Yeah the first biochem test is hard then the rest of them are a little better. I can only recommend that you study the past exams as I seem to remember they are very similar to the actual exam.

As far as the term "failed" is concerned it is tossed around alot but actually very hard to determine. For instance most people would use a Z-score of less than 400 to define failed but that really isn't the case. The actual fail number isn't computed until they develop a confidence interval and all that statistical mumbo jumbo. It is usually closer to 350, I actually got something like a 325 in nutrition and passed. Many people use their own expectations to define failing...that could be almost any number. If you get over a 400 on the remaining exams you will most likely pass.

As far as "everyone" failing a class at Wayne State I would absolutely argue against that. Only a few students fail each class (less than 10% in my class) and you can repeat the course by just taking a test over the summer. Periodically there is an exam like the one you are talking about and a bunch of people don't do well but most people end up passing the class.

I will admit that the teaching at WSU during the first two years is somewhat lacking and that you aren't as prepared for step 1 as students who go to a more academically orientated school. WSU is GREAT for clinical training, though, and that is much harder to duplicate by studying on your own. If I had the choice between WSU and MSU for med school I would absolutely choose WSU. You WILL NOT get the same quality of clinical experience working in Grand Rapids or Lansing as you do working downtown Detroit. First years don't fret...take it from someone who has been there. You will make it through your first 2 years and pass Step 1. Things get much more enjoyable after that. You will work hard but you will make such a difference for the patients that you take care of.

Wow...got on a soapbox there. Good luck on your next biochem test.

 

[dancinjenn]

THF synthesis is extremely important. Are you reviewing the key points from First Aid for step 1 yet? If not you should be.

I hope that I detect sarcasm here.

 

[thackl]

We just had one of these today in phys...... I don't know what their point is giving a test like that. Even the book readers said they hadn't heard of half the crap. It was kind of funny though..... people got so worked up; lots of bathroom breaks and anxiety attacks. Don't people realize everyone is struggling and it's all relative 🙄

 

[dancinjenn]

We had post-exam review for biochm today. A couple of the prof's went over their tests and one was like...well this question is just like the one in the book except BACKWARDS with a TWIST. And this question is the same principle as the one in the case study EXCEPT...fill in appropriate answer that makes the question N O T H I N G like the one in the book. Oh and remember when I talked in class about this one point that was almost remotely related to that days' lecture and was not found in the slides, or the notes, or in the assigned reading for the class...this question is exactly like that.

 

[Flobber]

We had post-exam review for biochm today. A couple of the prof's went over their tests and one was like...well this question is just like the one in the book except BACKWARDS with a TWIST. And this question is the same principle as the one in the case study EXCEPT...fill in appropriate answer that makes the question N O T H I N G like the one in the book. Oh and remember when I talked in class about this one point that was almost remotely related to that days' lecture and was not found in the slides, or the notes, or in the assigned reading for the class...this question is exactly like that.

I've never gone to one of those post-exam reviews and, hearing that, never will. At least the phys exam went over well... by this pattern, the next biochem exam should be a joke.

 

[dancinjenn]

I went because I am on the cusp of P/F land...where the many are it seems...and they use the same questions on the makeup exam that is given over the summer. I didn't really follow along with their little spiels, except to try not to laugh at Brusilow, just looked at what I would need to go over.

 

[thackl]

I've never gone to one of those post-exam reviews and, hearing that, never will. At least the phys exam went over well... by this pattern, the next biochem exam should be a joke.

Me either. Never even gone in to look at a test and probably won't start now. It was a bull**** test and I don't need to hear them tell me their logic. These prof's go out of thir way to simulate the NBME testing environment, then qive questions that are NOTHING like the NBME or MLE. National tests will never have "none of the above", "all of the above", "but", "except", k-type or any of these other questions we saw yesterday for three hrs. Student affairs and the pomotions committee have asked prof's several times to start writing question in the MLE format, but they are not able to force complience.

 

[katrinadams9]

These exams piss me off so much! I was just barely below passing in biochem and managed to do fairly well on physio (but when you factor in the average was 84.44, my grade doesn't seem so hot). So now I've pulled up my physio grade to almost within the guaranteed passing range and my biochem has slipped below it.

I just feel like no matter how hard I try, I can only do well on one exam at a time. The same pattern happened to me in the anatomy/histo block... GRRR!!!!

 

[dancinjenn]

These exams piss me off so much! I was just barely below passing in biochem and managed to do fairly well on physio (but when you factor in the average was 84.44, my grade doesn't seem so hot). So now I've pulled up my physio grade to almost within the guaranteed passing range and my biochem has slipped below it.

I just feel like no matter how hard I try, I can only do well on one exam at a time. The same pattern happened to me in the anatomy/histo block... GRRR!!!!

I was lucky enough to not have this problem during anat/histo...however, this has made the fall that much harder this block. I bombed the first physio and the second biochm. I did ok on the first biochm and average on the second physio. I can pass both the classes but I have to really rock the biochm.

But I hate biochem! I find most of the info useless and I can't seem to memorize all the little bits of info in order which pretty much screws me on those tests. I really like this section of physio because it is related to me more, so it is easier for me to concentrate on.

 

[Long Dong]

I hope that I detect sarcasm here.

No he is not kidding THF will come up again in viral pharm, chemo therapy pharm, and certain anemias.

Wow you guys got it ruff, i didn't think that any med schools tried to weed people out, I thought that was undergrad's job.

 

[Flobber]

You guys have to remember that the actual failing line is way below 400, so you should both be fine. But, I agree, putting the two exams within one day of each other and always making one of them insanely difficult is not a great way to assist us in mastering all of the material. It does kind of seem like you just have to pick which test you need to do best in and focus on that one, at the expense of the other.

Ah well, one more set of exams and we're done with this. Then we get to have Hazlett lectures again! Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!

 

[gobluefrog]

I wouldn't worry. Like Flobber said, the actual passing rate is usually way below 400, especially for Biochem and Phys. The 2nd set of exams for those classes are the worst in the entire first two years. So it'll get better from here!

 

[katrinadams9]

I was lucky enough to not have this problem during anat/histo...however, this has made the fall that much harder this block. I bombed the first physio and the second biochm. I did ok on the first biochm and average on the second physio. I can pass both the classes but I have to really rock the biochm.

But I hate biochem! I find most of the info useless and I can't seem to memorize all the little bits of info in order which pretty much screws me on those tests. I really like this section of physio because it is related to me more, so it is easier for me to concentrate on.

I'm in exactly the same boat. I bombed the first physio and second biochem. The only thing that makes me feel better is that 54 people also bombed the first physio and 78 people bombed the second biochem.... but it only makes me feel a little better.... I wasn't used to failing stuff in undergrad as I'm sure none of us are.

I only hope the clinical years are as good as the 3rd and 4th years say they are....

 

[dancinjenn]

I'm in exactly the same boat. I bombed the first physio and second biochem. The only thing that makes me feel better is that 54 people also bombed the first physio and 78 people bombed the second biochem.... but it only makes me feel a little better.... I wasn't used to failing stuff in undergrad as I'm sure none of us are.

I only hope the clinical years are as good as the 3rd and 4th years say they are....

3rd and 4th years are the light at the end of the tunnel right now. I have to keep reminding myself of that. Clin med also keeps me going. We can actually see the application of the info we are learning.

 

[Shangal]

yeah, I am a first year too. nice to meet some kids in the class that I will never meet in real life.
Well about last weeks exams, I am never in class, so I guess that's why I had a problem answering a couple of questions. I even missed the biochem review, I thought it was on friday for some reason. The questions I thought were tricky were the ones like what's the best way to treat this person with hypercholesteremia given he is just fat, has a disease but is hetero to the gene, verses homo. And the tetra hydrofolate question, and the neuro one and glutamine. But I survived thank god, and actually did better then physio, I found out later that DiCarlo gave everyone in class a hand out with 100 questions, since I didn't have those I did really bad on his section. But overall I don't think I did that bad.

 

[dancinjenn]

Shangal.

Um...there is really no way to tell other than the upper 1/2 of the class. I mean how would you know how many other people fall into that range? If you're really concerned w/ class rank go see Kate Conners. She is our class counselor in the Student Affairs office, she should be able to give you more specifics.

 

[Shangal]

you're right, I just thought that it will be nice to get an estimate, I am not that obsessed. And I don't want to talk with our counselor about it. I guess I'll just find out sometime next year. This z-score thing is making no sense to me. And I hate this whole ranking system thing that they putting us on, we should not be competing, somebody should do something about this.

 

[Flobber]

Off subject: what are you guys doing this summer? Research or anything medical, or sitting on your arses?

 

[Shangal]

I am going to be in europe or something, far away from michigan

 

[artemis]

I NEED something to do this summer away from MI, any suggestions anyone?

 

[dancinjenn]

I'm not sure yet because the anatomy dept hasn't contacted anyone yet, but hopefully I will be a prosector this summer.


Shangal: I don't believe that the z-score was ever intended to place everyone in competition with one another. I think that it was just supposed to be a way for us to see where we as individuals compare to the rest of the class. However, I do believe that it has become a competition just because no-one wants to see a low number after their testing id #. I personally don't really care what my z-score is. I would rather just get a decent percentage and know I am going to pass the class. A percentage is what the final passing scores are based upon anyway, not some arbitrary z-score cutoff line.

 

[Finally M3]

Want to hear a Wayne grad's secret to happiness in preclinical years?

Don't go to class (except for required labs). Wake up around 9-10AM, 'study' for 3-4 hours (notes + backup textbooks), work out, party like a rock star Thursday-Sunday.

Caveat: You will not honor. You will miss the 10-15% of most of the exams that are exclusively from the lectures. Also, this method may only apply to people who do NOT readily absorb material while being droned at in a monotone voice for 3-5 hours a day. Honestly, some of my class actually absorbed material during lecture. I fell asleep and thus, lecture was a waste of time.

Don't kid yourselves, 3rd year is just as demanding as 1st & 2nd year....because you will have to work and are expected to read AFTER work. Thus, you could be Q4 overnight during medicine at Beaumont while having your shelf exam looming in two weeks. 4th year is heaven, though. 😍

Good luck guys! You can do it!

 

[Flobber]

Want to hear a Wayne grad's secret to happiness in preclinical years?

Don't go to class (except for required labs). Wake up around 9-10AM, 'study' for 3-4 hours (notes + backup textbooks), work out, party like a rock star Thursday-Sunday.

Caveat: You will not honor. You will miss the 10-15% of most of the exams that are exclusively from the lectures. Also, this method may only apply to people who do NOT readily absorb material while being droned at in a monotone voice for 3-5 hours a day. Honestly, some of my class actually absorbed material during lecture. I fell asleep and thus, lecture was a waste of time.

Don't kid yourselves, 3rd year is just as demanding as 1st & 2nd year....because you will have to work and are expected to read AFTER work. Thus, you could be Q4 overnight during medicine at Beaumont while having your shelf exam looming in two weeks. 4th year is heaven, though. 😍

Good luck guys! You can do it!

It took me one semester to adopt this philosophy and it kicks ass. Glad to know I'm not the only one.

 

[dancinjenn]

I have been wondering if the stay at home method might work for me but I am worried about being able to stay focused. How do you manage?

 

[Flobber]

I have been wondering if the stay at home method might work for me but I am worried about being able to stay focused. How do you manage?

I just spend the time that I would have been in class reading the notes. I don't get a lot out of lectures, so it has worked well for me. My grades are much better than when I did go to class, so I'm sticking with it...

 

[tupac_don]

you're right, I just thought that it will be nice to get an estimate, I am not that obsessed. And I don't want to talk with our counselor about it. I guess I'll just find out sometime next year. This z-score thing is making no sense to me. And I hate this whole ranking system thing that they putting us on, we should not be competing, somebody should do something about this.

Competing is good it lets some excell while others don't do so good. It's like a capitalistic med school, whereas P/F med schools are socialist med schools. I am just kididng here, but I thought the comparison is kinda funny. But good thing with competing with others you don't have to outrun the bear, you just have to outrun the guy next to you. It's unfortunate that it is competitive, but life is a competion. I mean it was a competition to get where you are and to make it to med school. The trick is that now you are competing with the best of the best. Everyone who made it is a strong student so you are competing with anal retnetive, gunners, who want the best grades to get the best residency. So I am surprised you dont like the competion. You should think of it as a battle where you get to test your abilities and study strategies against others. Than it becomes fun and exciting. Good luck.

 

[Shangal]

I am a socialist, but thanks for motivating me to study. I do get excited sometimes when I get my grade and find it to be more then 10 points above average. But then I start feeling bad about everyone who did worse and studied more then me.
Life is not fair I guess

 

[fun8stuff]

Competing is good it lets some excell while others don't do so good. It's like a capitalistic med school, whereas P/F med schools are socialist med schools. I am just kididng here, but I thought the comparison is kinda funny. But good thing with competing with others you don't have to outrun the bear, you just have to outrun the guy next to you. It's unfortunate that it is competitive, but life is a competion. I mean it was a competition to get where you are and to make it to med school. The trick is that now you are competing with the best of the best. Everyone who made it is a strong student so you are competing with anal retnetive, gunners, who want the best grades to get the best residency. So I am surprised you dont like the competion. You should think of it as a battle where you get to test your abilities and study strategies against others. Than it becomes fun and exciting. Good luck.

The quote is: "You don't have to be faster than the bear, just faster than the slowest person running from the bear." 😀

 

[MD'05]

I am a socialist, but thanks for motivating me to study. I do get excited sometimes when I get my grade and find it to be more then 10 points above average. But then I start feeling bad about everyone who did worse and studied more then me.
Life is not fair I guess

Be an anti-gunner and help the other kids here to do better. Before the exam, tell them which topics you anticipate will be tested heavily. You will not feel as bad.

 

[CeLo]

I didn't take me long to figure out that for me going to class was a waste of time...about a week. But I have always been like that. I'm way more focused at home and can easily sit there and read for hours on end with breaks just to eat. Put me in a library, I'm done in an hour. I just can't wait until biochem is over. It's so tedious I have to really motivate to get through it. I tried watching Akins' lectures but he is the most god-awful boring person I have ever heard speak. Spring break in 2 weeks!!! We can do it guys!

 

[artemis]

Yeah, there is no point in trying to watch Akins lectures or even trying to attend them, but his notes are not too bad..... 🙄

 

[Flobber]

Have you guys been watching any lectures that ARE useful? I've watched a grand total of 0 so far. I'm thinking that maybe Gatti or Rillema's first few may be helpful... what do you guys think?

 

[dancinjenn]

Gatti said that he will only test on what he went over in class, but I am not sure how reliable that info is...even if it is from the horses mouth. Rillema seems to leave big spaces in his notes. All of the info is there, but it isn't connected very well and he spends most of the class going over the connections he wants you to know. I find his lectures helpful. Dunbar's you could probably get away with not watching...all of the info is in the notes and he doesn't go over anything that is not in the notes.

Hey quick question: Do any of you know whether or not the endocrinology conference questions will be tested on? Because they give a whole lot of info on tests to run etc...that is not in our notes anywhere.

 

[katrinadams9]

Gatti said that he will only test on what he went over in class, but I am not sure how reliable that info is...even if it is from the horses mouth. Rillema seems to leave big spaces in his notes. All of the info is there, but it isn't connected very well and he spends most of the class going over the connections he wants you to know. I find his lectures helpful. Dunbar's you could probably get away with not watching...all of the info is in the notes and he doesn't go over anything that is not in the notes.

Hey quick question: Do any of you know whether or not the endocrinology conference questions will be tested on? Because they give a whole lot of info on tests to run etc...that is not in our notes anywhere.

I haven't been going to the conferences, so I hope I'm not shooting myself in the foot. Has anyone been going to them? Are they helpful at all?