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[Vivid_Quail]

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Taxes are only ~20% of income, and you get a refund every year.

Lol I don't think you understand how a tax refund works. It doesn't lower your tax rate 😆 It just means the government/your employer took too much out of your paycheck during the year and gives it back to you in a lump sum.

I do agree that people are overly dramatic about student loan debt for 4 year bachelor's. Especially with REPAYE/IBR programs and loan forgiveness.

 

[jhmmd]

Sure, but we're trying to address the issue of students taking on the same amount of student loans entering into a field with low earning potential, as their counterparts entering higher earning fields. "Because its the same" doesn't really help much when trying to address that issue.

Yea but we don't live in a socialized economy

 

[jhmmd]

Lol I don't think you understand how a tax refund works. It doesn't lower your tax rate 😆 It just means the government/your employer took too much out of your paycheck during the year and gives it back to you in a lump sum.

I do agree that people are overly dramatic about student loan debt for 4 year bachelor's. Especially with REPAYE/IBR programs and loan forgiveness.

I do understand tax refunds. The govt takes out ~20% and gives you back a bit of that. Kind of silly but it works for most people I guess?

 

[LittleBrother]

1. For education to be a monopoly, it has to be a FOR PROFIT organization. Education in the U.S. is not a business. It is govt-run, as I just explained above. Your understanding of economics leaves much to be desired.
2. Again, education is an investment in your future. Especially now that a bachelor's degree is required for pretty much any type of job. I don't even understand HOW children could "mortgage their future."
3. "Their education cost billions of dollars"--hardly. See #2 above.
4. Your argument is that education rarely makes anyone's future better. According to this research (which is taken from this), and this, the percentage of people with a bachelor's degree or higher is increasing rapidly. This makes the job market a lot more competitive. While this should not be considered a "racket," it just goes to show that educational attainment is on the rise. I think that's what you meant when you were talking about people without high school diplomas not getting very far in life. Education is a real thing. It is truly valuable. It is not a conspiracy, and it does pay off.

la fin

1. The definition of monopoly is "the exclusive possession or control of the supply of or trade in a commodity or service." This definition makes no determination as to what entity exercises control. Here is a Wikipedia article about the phrase "monopoly on violence" with roots in 16th and 17th century political philosophy: Monopoly on violence - Wikipedia. Max Weber coined the term in 1919 "a 'state' if and insofar as its administrative staff successfully upholds a claim on the 'monopoly of the legitimate use of physical force'".

Here is an article from Wiki about the term "State Monopoly": State monopoly - Wikipedia. Here is another article about the term "Government-granted monopoly": Government-granted monopoly - Wikipedia


2. If you don't understand it here is a merriam-webster definiton: Definition of MORTGAGE THE/ONE'S FUTURE.

Also, education is an investment. For sure. People make bad investments. Simply because something is an investment doesn't make it a good investment.


3. This is obviously the summation of every premed COA.

4. That isn't my argument.

 

[Vivid_Quail]

I do understand tax refunds.

The govt takes out ~20% and gives you back a bit of that. Kind of silly but it works for most people I guess?

Pick one lol. You still don't understand.

Also, getting a tax refund is something you should actively avoid. It means you gave the government an interest-free loan. You should shoot for a $0 refund, or the lowest feasible without paying under-payment penalties.

 

[alm414]

Yea but we don't live in a socialized economy

Fair enough. I still think striving towards educational equity is a good thing, regardless of our type of economy, but we may just disagree on that.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

This is the crux of the problem. Why does getting a degree in art history cost the same as getting a degree in computer science? Cost of the degree should vary based on average income of the field you're getting the degree in. Computer science majors should pay more for their computer science degree because they will likely have a higher paying job after college; gender studies majors should pay less for their degree for the same reason.

We don't need tuition engineering. They cost same because because faculty salaries may be similar and salaries and lab costs are small percentage of overall cost. Where is the individual responsibility?

 

[jhmmd]

1. First, you can tone down you attitude. The definition of monopoly is "the exclusive possession or control of the supply of or trade in a commodity or service." This definition makes no determination as to what entity exercises control. Here is a Wikipedia article about the phrase "monopoly on violence" with roots in 16th and 17th century political philosophy: Monopoly on violence - Wikipedia. Max Weber coined the term in 1919 "a 'state' if and insofar as its administrative staff successfully upholds a claim on the 'monopoly of the legitimate use of physical force'".

Here is an article from Wiki about the term "State Monopoly": State monopoly - Wikipedia. Here is another article about the term "Government-granted monopoly": Government-granted monopoly - Wikipedia

Are you a troll or do you just always needlessly disparage people before doing the most basic research and without any obvious understanding of the subject?

2. If you don't understand it here is a merriam-webster definiton: Definition of MORTGAGE THE/ONE'S FUTURE.

Also, education is an investment. For sure. People make bad investments. Simply because something is an investment doesn't make it a good investment.


3. This is obviously the summation of every premed COA.

4. That isn't my argument.

Your post is a straw man argument. What exactly does linking dictionary definitions of the words "monopoly" and "mortgage" prove? Again your post is not cohesive and does not make much sense.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I do understand tax refunds. The govt takes out ~20% and gives you back a bit of that. Kind of silly but it works for most people I guess?

Those people don't know how to fill W-4 or too lazy to keep track of annual changes 🙂

 

[alm414]

We don't need tuition engineering. They cost same because because faculty salaries may be similar and salaries and lab costs are small percentage of overall cost. Where is the individual responsibility?

Faculty salaries can differ wildly based on subject being taught. Also, I understand why they cost the same, I'm saying I don't think they should cost the same. Also, can you clarify what you mean by individual responsibility in this context?

 

[LittleBrother]

On top of that, 50% of Caribbean students don't match, which essentially makes them unemployed for the purposes of their degree. 50% of 4-year college grads are not unemployed.
.

I doubt that people from Carib schools who don't match are permanently unemployed. 50% of college grads aren't unemployed but that doesn't mean they are employed in their original field of study nor that they needed a degree to achieve that employment nor that if the market wasn't saturated with college graduates that degree would be necessary for the functioning of their job.

Also, 50% of Carib graduates do match and go on to become licensed physicians. No one is saying that going to Carib school is great but at least their reputation is consistent with outcomes. However, many people are of the opinion that "just going to college" is universally good. This is blatantly false. People who go to school and don't finish (many) never benefit from the degree, people who do get ****ty degrees probably don't benefit that much either. Many people without degrees can be incredibly successful. As I have demonstrated in my personal life, I was able to make the wages of college educated people without needing a degree.

Let's not even touch the glaring question that is: does the degree make you successful or do successful people get degrees? Many people who go on to complete college and be successful come from well established middle class and educated families. The college I go to now is full of the well educated kids of DC-area bureaucrats and 90%+ graduation rate, whereas the college I started out in serves one of the poorest areas in the country and has less than a 50% graduation rate. It seems like the data might already be skewed to the well-known force that is wealth can be perpetuated through generations. Thus, if all the rich kids gradate college it would certainly look like graduating college leads you to being rich.

 

[jhmmd]

I doubt that people from Carib schools who don't match are permanently unemployed. 50% of college grads aren't unemployed but that doesn't mean they are employed in their original field of study nor that they needed a degree to achieve that employment nor that if the market wasn't saturated with college graduates that degree would be necessary for the functioning of their job.

Also, 50% of Carib graduates do match and go on to become licensed physicians. No one is saying that going to Carib school is great but at least their reputation is consistent with outcomes. However, many people are of the opinion that "just going to college" is universally good. This is blatantly false. People who go to school and don't finish (many) never benefit from the degree, people who do get ****ty degrees probably don't benefit that much either. Many people without degrees can be incredibly successful. As I have demonstrated in my personal life, I was able to make the wages of college educated people without needing a degree.

Let's not even touch the glaring question that is: does the degree make you successful or do successful people get degrees? Many people who go on to complete college and be successful come from well established middle class and educated families. The college I go to now is full of the well educated kids of DC-area bureaucrats and 90%+ graduation rate, whereas the college I started out in serves one of the poorest areas in the country and has less than a 50% graduation rate. It seems like the data might already be skewed to the well-known force that is wealth can be perpetuated through generations. Thus, if all the rich kids gradate college it would certainly look like graduating college leads you to being rich.

Correlation is not causation.
Side note: I learned this in college

 

[LittleBrother]

Your post is a straw man argument. What exactly does linking dictionary definitions of the words "monopoly" and "mortgage" prove? Again your post is not cohesive and does not make much sense.

Ok you can't be serious (or please don't be a physician) if you really can't put this together.

You said a monopoly had to be "FOR PROFIT" and because education in the US was "govt-run" it couldn't be a monopoly. I sent you an article about "State monopolies" which has in it's definition: "In economics, a government monopoly or public monopoly is a form of coercive monopoly in which a government agency or government corporation is the sole provider of a particular good or service."

I think this is pretty obviously a blatant refutation of your asinine statement. If I must spell it out for you then: I-T P-R-O-V-E-S Y-O-U W-R-O-N-G

 

[LittleBrother]

Correlation is not causation.
Side note: I learned this in college

Yes. Thanks for reinforcing my point.

 

[jhmmd]

Ok you can't be serious (or please don't be a physician) if you really can't put this together.

You said a monopoly had to be "FOR PROFIT" and because education in the US was "govt-run" it couldn't be a monopoly. I sent you an article about "State monopolies" which has in it's definition: "In economics, a government monopoly or public monopoly is a form of coercive monopoly in which a government agency or government corporation is the sole provider of a particular good or service."

I think this is pretty obviously a blatant refutation of your asinine statement. If I must spell it out for you then: I-T P-R-O-V-E-S Y-O-U W-R-O-N-G

Again, govt-run programs are not private. For a business to be a monopoly, it must be privatized.
bye for now

 

[LittleBrother]

Again, govt-run programs are not private. For a business to be a monopoly, it must be privatized.
bye for now

If anyone suggest going to a Carib school don't do it.

 

[Goro]

 

[Mad Jack]

Their economy is the main reason for their birthrate. I didn't say their birthrate was only because of a lot of tech jobs. All I said is that Japan is not a country I want to emulate in any way, especially not their economy.

Their economy isn't the best not because of its underlying fundamentals, but again, due to complex reasons owing to culture, trade, and various other problems present within Japanese society. These same problems also are largely to blame for Japan's birth rate crisis. Women are expected to leave their jobs and care for children in Japanese society to a degree that does not exist in the West. Japanese work ethic demands 80, 90, and 100 hour work weeks of their employees that leave little time for fraternizing or meeting potential partners. This lack of free time and the culture of always deferring to authority limits opportunities for creativity to thrive, which makes the way they do tech very different from the way we do tech. Finally, during formative years students are in high-pressure schools that demand 6 days per week of study most hours of the day, again further limiting opportunities for relationships to flourish and often putting a serious stop to chances of students to have active social lives that continue to provide them with the opportunities to meet partners into adulthood.

A highly technical society in the West would not be marred by these same social and societal ills, which are largely the result of the clash between Japanese culture and a modern economy. We would certainly have issues all our own, however (even now, our birth rate would be below replacement without immigrants, for instance).

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Faculty salaries can differ wildly based on subject being taught. Also, I understand why they cost the same, I'm saying I don't think they should cost the same. Also, can you clarify what you mean by individual responsibility in this context?

Again salaries are small part of overall cost. As per individual responsibility, I am talking about those willing to spend $70K/yr on an arts degree, complain that it takes forever to pay the loans since they make less than $50K/yr and want ask for government bailout.

 

[Medisaint]

To answer your question about IMGs, many are absolute rock stars in their home countries who have completed residencies and come with extensive research, PhDs, and faculty appointments. This is why many match at excellent programs.

My question was rhetorical and meant to illustrate the wide spectrum of quality in the "IMG" pool.
Some FMGs have advanced degrees but they are usually not too far out of training. I worry that your comment implies that FMGs are ringers and apply with an unfair advantage when in fact the deck is stacked against them as noncitizens. I should know, I married one of them. My spouse matched to at top 10 residency program out of medical school with no extra degrees--albeit with great scores, limited research, glowing letters and superb interviewing skills (in perfect English I will add). This was possible only at great personal cost and a decade of dealing with visa nightmares and political red tape.

 

[Medisaint]

The huge gap in her training would be a red flag for any applicant, regardless of where she went to school.

Anybody suggesting that federal loans should be cut off to Caribbean schools is completely out of touch with reality. Are there predatory schools? Absolutely. But there are also schools like Ross and SGU that, while expensive, offer a solid education, good clinical rotations, and excellent match rate.
I went to Ross, studied hard, crushed my boards and had no trouble matching at all, in fact I matched into a very competitive program. Now, 5 years out of residency I am faculty at one of the top institutions on the country (ironically, one of the schools that shot me down when I applied for medical school), with a recent promotion to a leadership position. I am literally teaching at a program that wouldn’t give me the time of day as a Med school applicant.

Nobody ever asks me where I went to school. What matters is where you match for residency and what your specialty is. That’s it. To get there you will need high board scores, higher than US grads, but it is beyond doable for anybody who is smart enough to be in medical school. Those that aren’t will either drop out or score low on boards. And even those that score low still usually find a place that will take them (FM). All of my friends that I went to school with matched and are doing extremely well. It’s all about getting back what you put in. Do your research, realize there are sketchy schools, but a 2 or 3 Caribbean programs are legitimate and will prepare you if you are willing to work hard.
So enough with the anti-Caribbean nonsense. Not all schools are the same.

Your post misses the point. Do you support cutting off federal loans to predatory Caribbean schools or the implementation of safeguards for last chance medical school applicants who don't really have a chance? If Caribbean schools had students who went on to be as successful as you then there wouldn't be a problem. The fact is (per NRMP) about 50% of US IMGs don't match. Many are from Caribbean schools.

 

[LittleBrother]

Your post misses the point. Do you support cutting off federal loans to predatory Caribbean schools or the implementation of safeguards for last chance medical school applicants who don't really have a chance? If Caribbean schools had students who went on to be as successful as you then there wouldn't be a problem. The fact is (per NRMP) about 50% of US IMGs don't match. Many are from Caribbean schools.

Equally, 50% do match.


We know that Carib schools take anyone with a pulse. I imagine the US does not have jurisdiction over these schools.

So the question then becomes: "do we want to screw over the 50% of Carib graduates who do match in order to protect the other 50% who probably shouldn't be doctors?"?

The Carib schools do provide the US with educated physicians. Why would we want to deny applicants from them?

 

[KnightDoc]

Equally, 50% do match.


We know that Carib schools take anyone with a pulse. I imagine the US does not have jurisdiction over these schools.

So the question then becomes: "do we want to screw over the 50% of Carib graduates who do match in order to protect the other 50% who probably shouldn't be doctors?"?

The Carib schools do provide the US with educated physicians. Why would we want to deny applicants from them?

We don't necessarily want to. Full disclosure of what people are getting into would be nice, but we really can't control that either.

What we COULD control, though, is funneling what over time becomes hundreds of millions or even billions of dollars to for-profit corporations operating predatory off-shore med schools. They want the freedom to operate and make a profit in a free market, where less than 50% of those who begin the journey ultimately achieve their goal? Great!! Let the free market decide what value to place on that opportunity, and let people make decisions accordingly.

Whether it's unsecured private loans with double digit annual interest rates, or whether it's tuition set at what a basically open enrollment opportunity is worth, let the market decide. The problem for a lot of folks is the subsidy provided by US taxpayers, who make loans to Caribbean matriculants at the same interest rate people attending HMS receive, even though the probability of ever being repaid is far, far, far less.

When people flunk out of the Caribbean, or graduate and never match, they have debt hanging over their heads for decades, and US taxpayers end up eating that debt. The only guaranteed winners here are the schools' owners, although, of course, things do work out for a significant minority of those enrolling. The question becomes why US taxpayers need to make private corporations running off-shore enterprises rich just to pick up some educated physicians that could otherwise be provided by immigrants graduating from foreign medical schools without US taxpayers having to eat a ton of bad debt?

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Not really. Mortgages are secured by tangible assets (real estate). Education loans are backed up by nothing other than the earning potential of those receiving the loans. The interest rates are actually far lower than they should be, given the huge amount of loan losses ultimately eaten by the taxpayers. If student loans were in the private market, without federal guarantees, interest rates and/or loan insurance rates would be through the roof, with parents required as co-signers and poor people and people with bad credit shut out entirely.

It is what it is -- a government program designed to open access to everyone. It runs at a huge loss, paid for by taxpayers. What you consider a ridiculously high interest rate is in fact highly subsidized, as evidenced by the number of loans in default. Just tell me what private bank offers unsecured personal loans at interest rates close to what is charged on student loans!!! The closest thing is a credit card, and those rates are FAR higher than student

My question was rhetorical and meant to illustrate the wide spectrum of quality in the "IMG" pool.
Some FMGs have advanced degrees but they are usually not too far out of training. I worry that your comment implies that FMGs are ringers and apply with an unfair advantage when in fact the deck is stacked against them as noncitizens. I should know, I married one of them. My spouse matched to at top 10 residency program out of medical school with no extra degrees--albeit with great scores, limited research, glowing letters and superb interviewing skills (in perfect English I will add). This was possible only at great personal cost and a decade of dealing with visa nightmares and political red tape.

I said "many", are absolute rock stars. And they are. Clearly not all. Congrats on your wife matching. Obviously a better candidate than many Caribbean grads.

 

[MDMechEngr]

I think with all the new for-profit schools openning up, they will end up taking a good number of the caribean candidates that would match if they attended a caribean school. This drives the caribean schools to take on more risky students, which will drive their match rate even lower. Something has to be done about these risky loans. It amazes me how desperate some people want to become doctors.

 

[Goro]

I think with all the new for-profit schools openning up, they will end up taking a good number of the caribean candidates that would match if they attended a caribean school. This drives the caribean schools to take on more risky students, which will drive their match rate even lower. Something has to be done about these risky loans. It amazes me how desperate some people want to become doctors.

And don't underestimate the damage done by Tiger Parents.

 

[LittleBrother]

And don't underestimate the damage done by Tiger Parents.

Tiger Parents?

 

[lumya]

Tiger Parents?

“I’m a cool tiger mom, you can get a doctorate in any field.” -My tiger mom

JK, she’s pretty chill for an Asian mom. But tiger parent usually refers to very strict parents, usually trying to live through their children at the detriment of said children.

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

There is plenty of predation in nonprofit education. This idea that these schools are bad just because "capitalism" is sophomoric.

This poster has it nailed. The very best example of this phenomenon is private, "not for profit" third and fourth tier law schools. About 15,000 people per year enroll in these clip joints and many of these "law students" have no real shot at passing the bar exam let alone a shot at a legal career. The most galling aspect of it is that the faculty members at these sink holes are all too familiar with the situation and still try to pass themselves off as social justice warriors.

 

[KnightDoc]

This poster has it nailed. The very best example of this phenomenon is private, "not for profit" third and fourth tier law schools. About 15,000 people per year enroll in these clip joints and many of these "law students" have no real shot at passing the bar exam let alone a shot at a legal career. The most galling aspect of it is that the faculty members at these sink holes are all too familiar with the situation and still try to pass themselves off as social justice warriors.

This sounds about right. Since there is such an equivalence, maybe the for-profit private Caribbean schools should come on shore, meet US standards, and become private, "not for profit" third and fourth tier med schools so we can have an apples to apples discussion.

The fact that there aren't enough well qualified applicants to fill all the seats at all US law schools, and there aren't enough jobs for those that do manage to graduate and pass the bar exam isn't the issue here at all with medicine, is it?

While for-profit corporations prey on the hopes and dreams of many who will never become licensed, practicing physicians, literally thousands of well qualified people are rejected from US schools each year, while there are actually more US residency slots than US med school graduates. If the Caribbean schools came on shore and met US standards, literally thousands more well qualified Americans could become doctors each year, at the expense of IMGs and FMGs now filling those residency slots.

This really isn't "capitalism" at all. It's abuse of a supply/demand imbalance using loopholes to avoid regulation and ethical marketing, with a taxpayer funded subsidy thrown in to make the numbers work for the a-holes running the schools. Maybe it would be less offensive if the schools were forced to self-fund full COA loans for all incoming students, and were forced to write them off for everyone who can't pay later, kind of like what US taxpayers do now! I'd bet a lot of money if that were required, their admission standards would be on par with the finest US schools. 😎

 

[Goro]

“I’m a cool tiger mom, you can get a doctorate in any field.” -My tiger mom

JK, she’s pretty chill for an Asian mom. But tiger parent usually refers to very strict parents, usually trying to live through their children at the detriment of said children.

To quote a student of mine, "I was given a choice of three careers: Medicine, Law or Engineering"

 

[lumya]

To quote a student of mine, "I was given a choice of three careers: Medicine, Law or Engineering"

Oh no, we were medicine or bust. Both of my maternal grandparents are doctors, my mom's an MD/PhD, her older sister is an MD, and her younger sister is the black sheep with a ChemE PhD (how dare she????)

My dad's side of the family are all farmers. He cried like a baby when I graduated from college.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

“I’m a cool tiger mom, you can get a doctorate in any field.” -My tiger mom

JK, she’s pretty chill for an Asian mom. But tiger parent usually refers to very strict parents, usually trying to live through their children at the detriment of said children.

yes, that's correct definition. Unfortunately it became a stereotype and gets misused even on this site. That's why I call myself an edge trimmer 😎

 

[LittleBrother]

To quote a student of mine, "I was given a choice of three careers: Medicine, Law or Engineering"

Ouch. My dad just said "I don't care what you do but you are moving out when you graduate [High School]."


In fairness to him, he also told me I didn't want to grow up to be a ditch digger, which was weirdly prophetic seeing that I joined the infantry...

 

[Gambino.]

Not even a story about a regular unmatched carib grad lol. 7 year gap between MS3-MS4 and now in her 40s. Did some googling since they only mentioned school in Barbados but she didn't even go to Ross, it was AUIS. So the article should read "low-tier Carib school grad who took a 7 year break cannot match"

Almost every US student will match if they apply realistically and don't have gaping red flags. Even in the big 3 carib, the bigger goal is not getting dismissed rather than get a residency spot. I wouldn't mind an increase to primary care residency funding with some caveats that they have in some EU countries where you are required to work in that area for X amount of years, would help increase medical access in rural areas. Give unmatched US students first dibs then open up to unmatched IMGs.

 

[cerebral edema]

Congrats on your success. You are the exception to the exception...a Caribbean unicorn.

I never said anything about being/or not being an “exception” and in fact haven’t defended the Carb route at all. I simply stated at “sometimes” they achieve success from hard work and not “family connections” as was previously stated. I actually advise people away from the carb route. Unfortunately I had no one to reach out to prior to making my decision for medical school. I was also in the Marine Corps Infantry and fighting professionally in MMA. 🤷‍♂️

 

[Goro]

Ouch. My dad just said "I don't care what you do but you are moving out when you graduate [High School]."


In fairness to him, he also told me I didn't want to grow up to be a ditch digger, which was weirdly prophetic seeing that I joined the infantry...

Many thanks for your service!

Hooooooahh!

I've told my daughter that if she doesn't go to college, she can live at home if she gets a job, but she'll have to pay rent, plus car insurance + gas.. If she goes to college, then she's set.

 

[LittleBrother]

Many thanks for your service!

Hooooooahh!

I've told my daughter that if she doesn't go to college, she can live at home if she gets a job, but she'll have to pay rent, plus car insurance + gas.. If she goes to college, then she's set.

Haha a reasonable deal if you ask me.

 

[xffan624]

Many thanks for your service!

Hooooooahh!

I've told my daughter that if she doesn't go to college, she can live at home if she gets a job, but she'll have to pay rent, plus car insurance + gas.. If she goes to college, then she's set.

My parents gave me that same caveat, but then they moved from my childhood home to a small two bedroom apartment in a different state 500+ miles away. I got the message.

 

[250orbust]

1 in 2 IMGs match. That’s a 50-50.

Either email you’re in or you’re out.

Pretty good odds. Not many things are certain in life.

 

[Goro]

1 in 2 IMGs match. That’s a 50-50.

Either email you’re in or you’re out.

Pretty good odds. Not many thins a certain in life.

Many of those matches are into one year dead-end preliminary residencies. Not categoricals.

Or they are into malignant programs

Fifty-fifty odds with a debt of over a quarter million dollars is not exactly a good risk

 

[Medisaint]

Equally, 50% do match.

a 50% match rate is **** when you are gambling with 300K of debt and 4 years of your life.

We know that Carib schools take anyone with a pulse. I imagine the US does not have jurisdiction over these schools.

The only reason why a US student would go to a Caribbean schools is because he/she wants to eventually match to the US. The US has jurisdiction over accreditation of these Caribbean schools so yes, they have plenty of power to regulate them.

So the question then becomes: "do we want to screw over the 50% of Carib graduates who do match in order to protect the other 50% who probably shouldn't be doctors?"?

That is not the question at all. The question is how do we prevent predatory schools from preying on naive students. Nobody is calling for these schools to be bulldozed to the ground. Regulating schools would have no effect on currently enrolled students or future match-capable students.

The Carib schools do provide the US with educated physicians. Why would we want to deny applicants from them?

I'm not sure how you can ask this. The whole point is that Caribbean schools accept "anyone with a pulse" (and wallet). They obviously do not provide the US with "educated physicians"--at least not consistently--as 50% are incapable of matching.

 

[Maskchamp]

Quick question though. Do any of the Caribbean grads actually stay in the Caribbean to work? Or are they all looking to match in the US, or is the degree valid outside of North America?

 

[lumya]

Quick question though. Do any of the Caribbean grads actually stay in the Caribbean to work? Or are they all looking to match in the US, or is the degree valid outside of North America?

I knew someone who went to a Carib school who didn't match and they taught at the Carib school as a lecturer/TA-type role for their off-years. But I don't think the islands support that many physicians full-time.

 

[xffan624]

Quick question though. Do any of the Caribbean grads actually stay in the Caribbean to work? Or are they all looking to match in the US, or is the degree valid outside of North America?

IIRC, for many of the countries, they only accept MBBS degrees so you can't get a license to practice there anyway from the degrees granted by the schools.

 

[LittleBrother]

a 50% match rate is **** when you are gambling with 300K of debt and 4 years of your life.

The only reason why a US student would go to a Caribbean schools is because he/she wants to eventually match to the US. The US has jurisdiction over accreditation of these Caribbean schools so yes, they have plenty of power to regulate them.


That is not the question at all. The question is how do we prevent predatory schools from preying on naive students. Nobody is calling for these schools to be bulldozed to the ground. Regulating schools would have no effect on currently enrolled students or future match-capable students.


I'm not sure how you can ask this. The whole point is that Caribbean schools accept "anyone with a pulse" (and wallet). They obviously do not provide the US with "educated physicians"--at least not consistently--as 50% are incapable of matching.

I've already addressed many of these points previously in this thread, you can go read them if you would like.

These schools obviously provide the US with educated physicians as 50% of them are capable of matching. These aren't great odds but they certainly aren't insignificant. I would buy a lot of lottery tickets if I had a 50-50 shot.

As I have said before, there is nothing particularly grotesque about these schools that aren't also endemic to the non-profit US education system. Thus it's hard to see why these schools in particular need added regulation.

 

[xffan624]

I've already addressed many of these points previously in this thread, you can go read them if you would like.

These schools obviously provide the US with educated physicians as 50% of them are capable of matching. These aren't great odds but they certainly aren't insignificant. I would buy a lot of lottery tickets if I had a 50-50 shot.

As I have said before, there is nothing particularly grotesque about these schools that aren't also endemic to the non-profit US education system. Thus it's hard to see why these schools in particular need added regulation.

Let's make an appropriate comparison here to what's occurring. Would you buy a lottery ticket if it cost $300K and the "jackpot" was a one year dead end PGY1 position?

It's about risk vs. reward. If the tuition for these schools was more reasonable then the risk vs. reward scenario might be less predatory. U.S. schools also charge high tuition but the odds of making a salary that justifies the high costs are much better.

 

[Maskchamp]

IIRC, for many of the countries, they only accept MBBS degrees so you can't get a license to practice there anyway from the degrees granted by the schools.

Wow, didn't know that. That's a gamble going over there. Considered IMG even though all the Caribbean schools are run by Americans, profs, staff, etc? Interesting. Thanks.

 

[LittleBrother]

Look...

All of this is out in the open. You can go almost anywhere and read about why going to a Carib school is seriously risky. No one is arguing that MD and DO schools aren't greatly preferable.

However, Carib schools do produce practicing physicians. You have a better chance at becoming a physician at a Carib school than you do not going to Med school.

To say that this model is exceptionally predatory over anything else in our education system is farcical. No one thinks its exceptionally predatory to let tons of kids pursue a premed track knowing that half of them won't matriculate into medical school. No one thinks it's exceptionally predatory to allow kids to accrue tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars in student debt in pursuit of masters and doctoral degrees so that they can end up working in a school system. No one even blinks an eye at the 4 year 50% graduation rate for public colleges and universities.

I have brought these up over and over again and the general argument has been to simply explain them away into nothingness. An education is intrinsically valuable, just not a Carib education. Having a bachelor's degree is good regardless of whether you do anything with it, but the same does not apply for a Carib program.

The double-standard is obvious. In the US you can pursue any amounts of debt and crappy education you want to so long as it's at a public university or college. Then it is a "good" education. But if it's from a for-profit institution then it is "predatory." Never mind that plenty of these non-profits are predatory themselves. How many sociology majors are being sacrificed so that professors have jobs? How many gender studies majors go on to occupy wasteful positions carved out for them in university admins simply so there is some work at the end of the pipeline.

This isn't that hard to argue since we know the trope has been "to pursue your passion." Please tell me why it's OK for the public education system to tell kids to "pursue their passion" and take tends of thousands of dollars (from the kids or from the tax payer) but the for profit schools are "predatory." A huge part of the "college experience" is throwing tons of money to fund legitimately useless University departments and offices. Kids spend this money unquestioningly because they have been conditioned to do so by a predatory system.

This is a system so predatory that people on this forum legitimately make the narrowest distinctions possible between its respective members, so that they cannot see the predatory nature in the whole system, they are only keyed to competition from the private sector. Literally everyone here defends the intrinsic value of an education (rather, an education like the one they were sold) but miraculously a for-profit MD program that gives you a legitimate chance at becoming a licensed physician is *bad*. That is to say, it doesn't matter if your Masters in Art History brings you any net benefit it is still "good." But the known risks of a Carib school make them exceptional predators that must be regulated.

 

[Dr.SPAC3MAN]

Seems like this has turned into a discussion of Risk aversion VS Risk tolerance. If you would place a $300,000 bet on <50% chance, Caribbean school might be an option to consider.