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XY Disadvantage?

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - MD' started by OneStrongBro, Sep 16, 2002.

  1. OneStrongBro

    OneStrongBro Senior Member
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    As many of you guys know, med schools are increasing enrollment of women in medical schools. One argument is that it is due to a higher proportion of women applying compared to men.

    If this is the case, than PROPORTIONAL representation is implied.

    On the other hand, if one looks at the avg GPA, and avg MCAT. Men tend to score slightly higher.

    So the question is distilled down to proportional representation vs merit..
     
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  3. gower

    gower 1K Member
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    GPA and MCAT scores, by themselves, do not = merit.

    All GPAs are not equal. Difficulty of curriculum and level of competition at all colleges and universities are not equal. Nor do all students everywhere attend college under exactly the circumstances.

    These are among the reasons why medical schools look for recommendations, personal statements, pattern of grades etc.
    It is also a reason why all medical schools interview candidates.
     
  4. Sam

    Sam Junior Member

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    I agree with Gower. GPA is dependent on college, circumstances, and a host of other factors in addition to merit.
     
  5. Random Access

    Random Access 1K Member
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    There's a thread about this already...
     
  6. OneStrongBro

    OneStrongBro Senior Member
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    okay so you are questioning the merit definition, i'll grant you that. However, the only way your argument will hold any water is if you are saying that on the average women have better extracurricular activities and letters of recommendations.

    I argue there are so many women and men in the applicant pool that EC and letters of recommendations are a wash. Think about it, how can one sex perform significantly higher on EC, letters of recommendations, and/or interview. By extrapolation, it is fair to say that if EC, letters of recommendations, and interview are a wash, than it boils down to gpa and mcat scores. So an assumption of the argument is that EC's and Letters of recommendation is a wash for males and females. Can you give me a valid reason this is not the case?

    I don't buy your argument at all.

    Also, i agree that all gpa is not the same. However, are you implying that men tend to go to a more lenient GPA school. Since, men and women will be dispersed randomly, it is fair to say that the GPA at an easy school is a moot point because there is an equal chance that a man or a woman attended the weaker school. Therefore, caliber of school is a moot point. Unless you can prove men tend to go to "easier" schools.

    The logic of easier schools attended is completely beside the point. Keep in mind my chief argument is that men have higher gpas and higher mcat scores, yet a greater proportion of women are accepted to med school. Tell me how a caliber of school or letters of recommendation fits into this argument? The only way is if you can prove women have better ec, interview, or letters of recommendation, or women tend to go to higher caliber schools.
     
  7. dr kevin40

    dr kevin40 Senior Member
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    I think that XY and XX differences in GPA can't be attributed to difficulty of school, b/c as strongbro said, its random.

    but perhaps, chics r better at sucking up and getting involved in more activities?? very small possibility.

    prolly there's a bias gainst males
     
  8. Random Access

    Random Access 1K Member
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    Is there an MCAT score differential? Someone mentioned that in the other thread about this...

    -RA
     
  9. CD

    CD Senior Member
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    I haven't given this any thought at all so don't take my comments seriously but..... When I went through engr. school there were only 6 women in our class of 60 that graduated that year. Since engr. is considered one of the harder areas of study (I'm not saying I agree but it is considered so) it would seem that men should have WORSE gpas. My current experience in a chem. masters program is that men are much more represented. So again men should have lesser gpa's since chem is also considered more difficult. That is assuming that women choose less science minded areas of study which might be easier. Just a thought.

    BTW I am female!
     
  10. none

    none 1K Member
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    Where's the data source on all of this? It's hard to debate generalizations...
     
  11. SMW

    SMW Grand Member
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    It seems likely to me that the over-representation of women is due solely to the over-representation of women in the application process. What is slightly? A slight increase in GPA is not worth all that much compared to a better over-all application.
     
  12. Neuronix

    Neuronix Total nerd
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    AMCAS used to put data on their website that clearly showed the differences in accepted GPA and MCAT based on race and gender. Males were slightly higher than females (like .1 GPA and 1.x MCAT), and URMs were much lower than non-URMs. Of course, you have to take my word for it, because AMCAS removed the data from their site and I have not seen it since.
     
  13. chandler742

    chandler742 Senior Member
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    Do I sense a moment of weakness, StrongBro?

    Face it, life is not fair. You must play the cards that are dealt to you. Sure, you can argue that one may have an easier road to medical school.

    So what? Is talking about a possible bias going to help your cause? No.

    If you want sympathy, than you got it.

    :pity:

    Now move on!!!

    Besides, ONCE you get into med school, you will be happy that a majority of students are women.
     
  14. MacGyver

    MacGyver Membership Revoked
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    chandler,

    Step back and think about your comments for a sec. Now imagine that we are talking about minorities or women instead of white men.

    Would you still make the same comments?
     
  15. chandler742

    chandler742 Senior Member
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    Hmmmm...


    Yes, I would. Let's not get bogged down on a possible debate over the selection process. My point is that we all have a different road. That is a fact. Even if the med school process is skewed toward certain groups. So what?

    What can you do? Nothing. So why dwell on it?

    I am a pragmatic. Live with your situation. People on this board are interested in getting into medical school, not to debate the merits of affirmative action. If you are truly passionate about the legality of the selection process, maybe you should go into law school or politics.
     
  16. DW

    DW Fix me some sandwiches
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    :laugh:
     
  17. Neuronix

    Neuronix Total nerd
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    ROFL! I guess I should tell my interviewers that I chose medical school because I have no opinions on anything.

    :rolleyes:
     
  18. smid

    smid Member
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    What I try to keep in mind is that the medical profession (including medical schools) does not want to educate or waste time on people that they do not view as having clear potential to succeed in medicine. when you are talking about gpas of 3.8 vs 3.85 it isn't a big deal because of what everyone here has been saying. different schools, circumstances, majors, professors, course load, etc. At my school, women have a higher gpa on average (I don't know about MCAT, though), but I bet it varies and depends on SO MANY things. The point is, a school neds as many indicators as possible that an applicant can and will succeed at their school, male or female.

    It is really sad to me to see that people here care so much about this and don't put any faith in the system. Same thing with the URMs. sure, their numbers are lower, but there are a lot of reasons for that (i assume). No good school is going to waste a precious spot in their class with someone who isn't superior in their minds.

    If you are a good candidate (as I assume that you assume you are) then have the confidence that you will be accepted to the school you are meant to go to.
     
  19. paean

    paean Senior Member
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    Neuronix, I won't take your word that males have higher GPAs, because it goes against everything I've ever heard. Without hard numbers, this is a moot argument. The only statistics we can all reference says that:

    1. More females than males applied to med school recently.

    2. More females than males matriculated to med school recently.

    Seems pretty straight forward to me.

    And, although i told myself not to bother, I can't help but wonder what kind of person thinks that there are significant differences in numbers, but not in any other catagory (ECs, research, interviewing skills) among the genders. Of course there are differences (although I can't say what they might be, but to have them exactly equal would be a major statistical anomaly), and how you compare two candidates says a lot more about what you value than the intrinsic merit of the candidates.
     
  20. Neuronix

    Neuronix Total nerd
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    Why are you attacking me? All I posted was about the numbers. I never said I disagreed with it. I also never said that females may not have excelled in other areas. What I find most interesting is that the numbers are no longer posted.

    What I have seen in my personal life are a bunch of guys who can't get into allopathic programs with not so great numbers and decent ECs and similarly equipped females who are in allopathic programs. I don't know what's behind it. I don't particularly care. This is one of those issues I'm on the fence about.

    So, please don't go after me. You can say you don't believe me and you can say that they're not that important, but don't go putting words in my mouth. I'm not the "kind of person thinks that there are significant differences in numbers, but not in any other catagory (ECs, research, interviewing skills) among the genders." Further, "what value [in] the intrinsic merit of the candidates" is very similar to what you value considering I'm a non-traditional applicant.
     

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