yet another real estate q

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avgjoe

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I know this is a little off-topic, but since there were oh-so-popular threads about mortgages and consolidation, I thought I'd risk it and get some help!
We're thinking of buying a home out-of-state as an investment (getting renters to help with the mortgage) as we can't afford any in CA. I have two main questions:
If any of you have done something similar, how was the experience? Was it more work (and $$) than you imagined to be a landlord, particularly a long-distance one?
The loan person I spoke with said he would recommend a 5-1-arm loan?? and that I should go interest-only for the first few years. He said he'd recommend this since I would plan to sell the house in a few years if it appreciated well. Thanks for your help!

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Being a landlord can be a lot of work but, depending on the situation can be a supplement to your income and long-term investment. Definitely worth looking into, but I would do a lot of looking. First, I would study up about the ins and outs of home-ownership and being an landlord. "Home Buying for Dummies" is pretty good for the former at least.

My recent experience has been for brokers to push you to go for an ARM. The thought being that you'd either sell or refinance before the rates go up. In my limited understanding I'd think you'd rather fix the interest rate on an investment property. The beauty of being a landlord is having someone else pay the mortgage. Hopefully, but not necessarily, the rent you collect is more than the mortgage. That way not only do you have positive cash flow, you are building equity in the property. True, you could sell the place and cash out, but if you have tenets and things are working out, I'm not so sure you'd want to. In my mind, unless you make a big down payment, thereby making the mortgage low and your profit (rent-mortgage) high; then your main benefit to being a landlord is the long-term profit gained by building the equity in the place....something that could take more than 5 years. But then you could always refinance......

Anyway, good luck.
 
MM9 said:
Being a landlord can be a lot of work but, depending on the situation can be a supplement to your income and long-term investment. Definitely worth looking into, but I would do a lot of looking. First, I would study up about the ins and outs of home-ownership and being an landlord. "Home Buying for Dummies" is pretty good for the former at least.

My recent experience has been for brokers to push you to go for an ARM. The thought being that you'd either sell or refinance before the rates go up. In my limited understanding I'd think you'd rather fix the interest rate on an investment property. The beauty of being a landlord is having someone else pay the mortgage. Hopefully, but not necessarily, the rent you collect is more than the mortgage. That way not only do you have positive cash flow, you are building equity in the property. True, you could sell the place and cash out, but if you have tenets and things are working out, I'm not so sure you'd want to. In my mind, unless you make a big down payment, thereby making the mortgage low and your profit (rent-mortgage) high; then your main benefit to being a landlord is the long-term profit gained by building the equity in the place....something that could take more than 5 years. But then you could always refinance......

Anyway, good luck.

Keep in mind that being an absentee landlord is a tough job unless you hire a management company. What are you going to do if the furnace dies? What if your tennents trash the place? There are some downsides to this. Remember if the house is not your primary residence you may have to pay a higher interest rate.

Ed
 
Investing in real estate is tricky. People say it "always" goes up, but that is far from true. Buying ONE home is like buying stock in ONE company. It can go UP UP UP or the company can go bankrupt. Also, you have to FIND renters. If the palce sits empty, you lose money. I own a condo (that I live in), but several people own and rent out. In order to cover their costs, they must rent for a certain amount. Costs (not including repair or mortgage interest, just taxes and maint fees) can be upwards of $500/mo. Rents around here go for about $600-700. VERY slim margin. And if you are absent, you'll have to hire someone to run everything... I wouldn't do it.
 
edmadison said:
Keep in mind that being an absentee landlord is a tough job unless you hire a management company. What are you going to do if the furnace dies? What if your tennents trash the place? There are some downsides to this. Remember if the house is not your primary residence you may have to pay a higher interest rate.

Ed

This is true. Renters can destroy any piece of mind you hope to have. I have my own horror story of renters. The best idea is to contact local banks and set them up to manage your property. They will get a cut of the rent but THEY will handle finding renters who are not wanted in 5 states by the police, managing the property and if need be, getting some nasty lawyers on your side if the renters get surly. I really don't know much on the specifics but after seeing the mess my in-laws went through (plus spending one month fixing the house), I would recommend looking into a property manager.
 
avgjoe said:
I know this is a little off-topic, but since there were oh-so-popular threads about mortgages and consolidation, I thought I'd risk it and get some help!
We're thinking of buying a home out-of-state as an investment (getting renters to help with the mortgage) as we can't afford any in CA. I have two main questions:
If any of you have done something similar, how was the experience? Was it more work (and $$) than you imagined to be a landlord, particularly a long-distance one?
The loan person I spoke with said he would recommend a 5-1-arm loan?? and that I should go interest-only for the first few years. He said he'd recommend this since I would plan to sell the house in a few years if it appreciated well. Thanks for your help!

go to www.money99.com and take a look at the information there including the landlord checklist under the "be a landlord" tab.
 
Thanks for the responses guys.. Since most of you seem to be against our doing this, let me just lay out the reasoning behind our thought .. don't know if that will change your mind, but it's worth a shot :). Basically, we a) can't afford a home in California, b) know someone who just bought in Phoenix, c) know that phoenix home prices are going up each month and that arizona is supposedly the fastest-growing state in america. and d) know a realtor there who works with lots of ca investors, and has lots of stuff set up to help - like someone who we pay to get renters (we pay them one months rent), and a network of folks who we can call on for maintenance needs.
So putting all of this together with your guys' advice, hwhat do you think?
 
I didn't mean to dissuade you, just saying that it's reasonably complicated and worth a lot of study. I'm not sure what residency you're going into, but whatever it is I'm sure you'll be busy so a service to find renters etc. sounds great. Though a whole months rent seems steep. Assuming you're not making a huge down-payment, I can't imagine the rent is going to be much more than 20% of the mortgage payment. That month you give up could be most, if not all, of your positive cash flow for the year. And then who's to say the renter's will stay for more then one year? However, like I said before, I'd view this as more of a long-term investment, so maybe it's worth it to lose out on the positive cash flow. Just something to think about.....I'd probably want to find my own renters. Take a look at some local papers and see how quickly things move.

Honestly, I think you should go for it. Now is the time in our lives, assuming you're relatively young, to take investment risks. And as long as you're willing to put in the work and can personally handle the financial stress (wouldn't want it to add stress to what will already be a tough year) then I'm sure it will work out fine.

Let me know if you go with the ARM.

Good Luck.
 
And, again, past performance is no guarantee of future performance.
 
Here's my take in two areas:
financial:
Traditionally, investment properties for individuals should be thought of on the terms of a rent/own ratio (not too far away from a price/earnings ratio for stocks). Your rental income should at least cover your expenses so that you don't go cash-flow negative if possible so that you have a margin to ride out maintenance issues (what if the roof falls in? You may have insurance, but you'll likely have to give a rent abatement until the roof is fixed putting a huge hole in your calculations), and empty homes (can't find a good renter, etc.)

Recently, some have tried going cash-flow negative in an effort to gain the equity increase in the home and counting on being able to tap that equity if an emergency should arise and sell the home to cash out (which sounds like your plan). This is risky in a rising market, and ridiculous in a falling market.

So the issue for you is: what's your cash reserves and what is your tolerance for risk? Are you willing to accept a bankruptcy if the market crashes. (Don't laugh, I know a number of people who lost their shirts in Southern California real-estate in the late 80s early 90s because they were over-leveraged when the bottom fell out of the market)

I don't know the Phoenix area well, but a quick look at some stats at:
http://bwnt.businessweek.com/housing_boom/index.asp
show that the percentage of homes bought in Phoenix as "investments" is high relative to the nation (increases volatility and prices); the rent to buy ratio is 76% (meaning you are unlikely to recoup all your costs by being a landlord unless the equity continues to increase), although this is still lower than the insane California markets which are at ~50%

Ultimately, you should run the numbers yourself, but I have always had my doubts about the Las Vegas and Phoenix real estate booms since there is so much available land to develop, it is hard to understand how these quick price run-ups (34% in a year for phoenix) can be sustainable since more homes will keep coming on the market. Best I can tell, the market is propped up by Los Angeles amateur speculators who may not have the stomach or the finances to withstand a long drop leading to a rapid leveling or possible deflation of prices when all these people's interest-only portions of their loans expire (check the payment schedule, when this happens, often the monthly payment will double because of the shorter amortization schedule, combined with interest rate hike that we can expect given that home mortgage rates are still very low relative to the norm)

I guess: my overall take is: this is a tricky time to make this investment and if you can't really pay attention to it, it's going to cost you money to have someone to do so. The margin is so thin that its more risk than your average financially strapped resident probably should take.

Socially:
As a resident, you will be extraordinarily stressed. While this realtor may be willing to help you out with contractors, etc. for maintenance problems, who is going to take the call in the middle of the night that the tenants have a leaking toilet? Unless you hire a management company for full-service (more money), that person is you. Who has to initiate eviction proceedings and show up in court if the renters don't pay rent? Yep, that's you. Who has to be involved in any dispute with the tenants? Again, you.

My overall take on this is: long distance landlording is a pain (I've done it). It is more expensive and time consuming than you think it will be and you have to have an extraordinary amount of trust in the management company that you hire. If your residency is going to be stressful (which it likely will be) I'd think twice unless your spouse/SO is willing to take on the entire burden of handling this.
 
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