Yet even more on the PA vs. MD question

[deleted6669]

It all comes down to whether you really love medicine for its own sake or whether you're looking for "just a job." If it's "just a job" you seek, PA will work much better for you. If you really love medicine, to the point where you'd be happy to work long hours, come in on the weekends, etc., because of the satisfaction you get from the job itself, then go with medicine.

working as a pa is working in medicine.
I staff a small dept by myself most of the time and am scheduled interchangeably with docs.
I work longer hrs than all the docs I work with(twice as much as some) and almost exclusively nights and weekends. in my spare time I am on state, federal, and international disaster medical teams and teach pa students, medical students, residents, and paramedics. I write articles for peer reviewed medical journals. I just burned a years vacation doing medical relief work in Haiti.
going to pa school was the right next step for me after getting a bs and working a few yrs as a medic. if I could go back sure I would love to be a doc but don't confuse that with not "loving medicine". I live and breathe medicine.

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[Trismegistus4]

working as a pa is working in medicine.
I staff a small dept by myself most of the time and am scheduled interchangeably with docs.
I work longer hrs than all the docs I work with(twice as much as some) and almost exclusively nights and weekends. in my spare time I am on state, federal, and international disaster medical teams and teach pa students, medical students, residents, and paramedics. I write articles for peer reviewed medical journals. I just burned a years vacation doing medical relief work in Haiti.
going to pa school was the right next step for me after getting a bs and working a few yrs as a medic. if I could go back sure I would love to be a doc but don't confuse that with not "loving medicine". I live and breathe medicine.

Oh great, just what we need. Another midlevel debate. You know very well what I meant by "medicine": the specific profession known as medicine, whose practitioners hold an MD or DO degree and are called "physicians."

 

[deleted6669]

Oh great, just what we need. Another midlevel debate. You know very well what I meant by "medicine": the specific profession known as medicine, whose practitioners hold an MD or DO degree and are called "physicians."

no debate.
you missed my point entirely.
you don't need to be a physician to practice, or love the practice of, medicine.
my state license says "emedpa is hereby granted this license to practice medicine in the state of xyz."

 

[Trismegistus4]

no debate.

Yes debate, because in suggesting that physician assistants practice medicine, YOU broached one of SDN's most controversial topics.

my state license says "emedpa is hereby granted this license to practice medicine in the state of xyz."

If that's true, then that's a travesty. It shouldn't.

 

[Madonna1234]

Thanks all!

 

[deleted6669]

Yes debate, because in suggesting that physician assistants practice medicine, YOU broached one of SDN's most controversial topics.


If that's true, then that's a travesty. It shouldn't.

we certainly don't practice "assisting"...so what is it that you think we do?
since so many folks here like wikipedia allow me to present their version(you can stop after the first sentance):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physician_Assistant
or perhaps you would prefer a dictionary:
http://www.bing.com/Dictionary/search?q=define+physician+assistant&FORM=DTPDIA
I am staffing a solo department right now doing exactly the same things as the doc who will relieve me in 9 hours. we both practice medicine.
you can argue whether or not a nurse practitioner practices "advanced nursing" or medicine but pa's clearly practice medicine.
we don't have an unrestricted license as we need an affiliation with a physician to do so but they don't need to be available on site, just available for phone consultation as needed.

 

[EddieL]

working as a pa is working in medicine.
I staff a small dept by myself most of the time and am scheduled interchangeably with docs.
I work longer hrs than all the docs I work with(twice as much as some) and almost exclusively nights and weekends. in my spare time I am on state, federal, and international disaster medical teams and teach pa students, medical students, residents, and paramedics. I write articles for peer reviewed medical journals. I just burned a years vacation doing medical relief work in Haiti.
going to pa school was the right next step for me after getting a bs and working a few yrs as a medic. if I could go back sure I would love to be a doc but don't confuse that with not "loving medicine". I live and breathe medicine.

Hi Emedpa,

This is going to be sort of off-topic, but I read over a lot of your posts and always sort of wondered, if you could do it all over again, would you become a doc instead of PA? You're one of the most experienced PA's on the forums, so I'm curious about what your opinion is.

 

[deleted6669]

Hi Emedpa,

This is going to be sort of off-topic, but I read over a lot of your posts and always sort of wondered, if you could do it all over again, would you become a doc instead of PA? You're one of the most experienced PA's on the forums, so I'm curious about what your opinion is.

yup, I would go to med school if I had it to do over again. in fact I almost have several times. I went so far as going back and taking the extra prereqs, etc.
I have a good gpa(3.97) from a good school(U. of CA) and years of experience as a medic and a pa with lots of volunteer time and community service so I think it's fair to say that I could probably get into medschool if I applied. I would only apply to D.O. programs as they appreciate older applicants with life experience much more than the md programs. I have several friends who have gone pa to d.o. and they all did very well, worked through school, and graduated near the top of their class.
I come from a long line of physicians. my dad was a neurologist. my grandfather was a surgeon. my great grandfather was a world renowned pathologist(he has diseases named after him). none of these folks were very good fathers unfortunately. what I figured out (too late) was that it was a failure of theirs, not a necessary consequence of being a physician. I have no memories of my dad before I was 12. I knew I didn't want to be that kind of father. now I know that I could have done both but didn't figure that out until I had some more positive role models who were docs as well as good dads. at this point in my life it just doesn't make financial sense to go to medschool. my "opportunity cost" (lost wages+price of school) is over 1 million dollars. my "break even point" financially is around the time most folks retire. if there were a 2 yr pa to md bridge program I would probably still do it at this point but those probably won't start for a few more years yet(there are a few in the works) and by then it will definitely be too late for me to consider it.
if you are young and have the desire to work in medicine go to medschool.

 

[GoodmanBrown]

my great grandfather was a world renowned pathologist(he has diseases named after him).

This made me smile. It's funny to me that it's a huge compliment to have a disease named after you.

my "break even point" financially is around the time most folks retire

To totally play devil's advocate, Em, isn't that still a decent timeframe? I mean, I don't peg you as the kind of guy who's gonna hit 65 and say, "Well, that was fun, but screw working anymore!" Now, granted, I'm completely reading into your entire personality by reading your Interweb posts on SDN and the PA Forum, but you seem to me to be the kind of guy who's gonna be working part-time until you kick it. So, if you'd break even at 65ish, won't you be ahead by the time you're 70?

It's kind of moot point for me personally, since I never considered PA. It's just an interesting example of the difference between PA and MD that is relevant to me personally (since I remember both Febrifuge and I posting about applying to post-baccs around the same time) that people who are considering both can take to heart.

I guess it was mainly curiosity because from your post you seem pretty unhappy with medicine, your job path in general, and maybe life. Which is sad. So, I was just curious if you looked back at the decision and wished you'd made a different one.

 

[EddieL]

yup, I would go to med school if I had it to do over again. in fact I almost have several times. I went so far as going back and taking the extra prereqs, etc.
I have a good gpa(3.97) from a good school(U. of CA) and years of experience as a medic and a pa with lots of volunteer time and community service so I think it's fair to say that I could probably get into medschool if I applied. I would only apply to D.O. programs as they appreciate older applicants with life experience much more than the md programs. I have several friends who have gone pa to d.o. and they all did very well, worked through school, and graduated near the top of their class.
I come from a long line of physicians. my dad was a neurologist. my grandfather was a surgeon. my great grandfather was a world renowned pathologist(he has diseases named after him). none of these folks were very good fathers unfortunately. what I figured out (too late) was that it was a failure of theirs, not a necessary consequence of being a physician. I have no memories of my dad before I was 12. I knew I didn't want to be that kind of father. now I know that I could have done both but didn't figure that out until I had some more positive role models who were docs as well as good dads. at this point in my life it just doesn't make financial sense to go to medschool. my "opportunity cost" (lost wages+price of school) is over 1 million dollars. my "break even point" financially is around the time most folks retire. if there were a 2 yr pa to md bridge program I would probably still do it at this point but those probably won't start for a few more years yet(there are a few in the works) and by then it will definitely be too late for me to consider it.
if you are young and have the desire to work in medicine go to medschool.

Thanks for your response. I'll take your advice.

 

[Trismegistus4]

I guess it was mainly curiosity because from your post you seem pretty unhappy with medicine, your job path in general, and maybe life. Which is sad. So, I was just curious if you looked back at the decision and wished you'd made a different one.

Yes and no. I think many people who are considering whether to apply to PA school or MD/DO school, obviously, are interested in health care in general. If one is in that situation, it's a perfectly valid debate to have with yourself. Do you want shorter education/training, the ability to treat patients, and are content not to be the boss? Then the PA route is probably better. Or will you not rest until you are the boss, the one with whom the buck stops, the ultimate expert who takes responsibility for the patient's care when others' abilities have been exhausted? Then you'll want to become a physician.

I, on the other hand, never considered PA because I didn't get into medicine out of any particular interest in health care per se, or the human body, or helping people, or any of that jazz, but instead out of a desire to have people look up to, admire, and respect me, and to make a lot of money without having to have business acumen (i.e., I could have climbed the corporate ladder instead but didn't feel I had it in me to do that.) And if THAT'S the situation one is in, the solution is not to go to PA OR MD school, but to get over it and learn how to successfully deal with life.

 

[passerby1ce]

oops

 

[njbmd]

Medical school is always there if it's your grand desire. Medical school doesn't make you a better person or guarantee entry into the country club life. It is an education that is a means to an end. You won't be "top dog" unless you are already "top dog". You will be a medical student and with some efficient work over the training period, a physician. It's not a "holy grail" but a profession.

Becoming a physician assistant doesn't "rule out" or "rule in" attending medical school and is an attractive profession for those who want to pursue it. I made the choice to attend medical school when I was in my late 40s and have enjoyed every step of the process and training. That worked for me; I certainly wouldn't encourage everyone to pursue medicine in their late 40s in today's world unless that worked out for them.

Rather than question anyone's motives (other than your own), figure out what you want to do it. There's no magic here but a distinct choice between two professions that work well with and complement each other. Physician assistants do enter medical school same as any other healthcare profession if that is their desire.

 

[GoodmanBrown]

I, on the other hand, never considered PA because I didn't get into medicine out of any particular interest in health care per se, or the human body, or helping people, or any of that jazz, but instead out of a desire to have people look up to, admire, and respect me, and to make a lot of money without having to have business acumen (i.e., I could have climbed the corporate ladder instead but didn't feel I had it in me to do that.) And if THAT'S the situation one is in, the solution is not to go to PA OR MD school, but to get over it and learn how to successfully deal with life.

Fair enough. Do you expect that you'll continue on in medicine after graduation/residency/after your student loans are paid off?

 

[passerby1ce]

I, on the other hand, never considered PA because I didn't get into medicine out of any particular interest in health care per se, or the human body, or helping people, or any of that jazz, but instead out of a desire to have people look up to, admire, and respect me, and to make a lot of money without having to have business acumen (i.e., I could have climbed the corporate ladder instead but didn't feel I had it in me to do that.) And if THAT'S the situation one is in, the solution is not to go to PA OR MD school, but to get over it and learn how to successfully deal with life.

So....I'm curious without the desire to study human bodies and help people, what stats did you have to get into medical school? High GPA and MCAT?

 

[Trismegistus4]

Fair enough. Do you expect that you'll continue on in medicine after graduation/residency/after your student loans are paid off?

I don't know at this point. On the one hand, it's tempting to think about non-clinical jobs, like working for a pharmaceutical company or medical device company. The problem with that is twofold: first, just based on the job listings I've looked at, most employers looking to hire doctors are looking for experienced doctors, people who have actually completed a residency and practiced medicine. Of course, the best jobs are never advertised, and it's possible there are opportunities for me out there and I just don't know where to look for them yet. Second, it would involve going back to the corporate world, which I didn't like, one of the reasons I went into medicine in the first place. I didn't feel I could hack it in the corporate world. Then again, I know more now than I did then, I'm more realistic about life in general, and it might be possible to just swallow my pride, grin and bear it.

On the other hand, there are a few medical specialties that do interest me somewhat. I kind of liked my psychiatry clerkship, and I could potentially see myself doing pathology too (the latter has a reputation on SDN for having a horrible job marked, but I recently asked a pathologist about that and he said it's only true if you're looking to stay in a big city, if you're willing to move anywhere you'll be fine, so I don't know.) The problem with practicing medicine is how much more work remains for me before I can begin having a normal life again. I haven't even passed Step 1 or done most of my 3rd year clerkships yet, and frankly, when I think about all we've been told we need to do on the wards and for ERAS (come in early, stay late, know your patients backwards and forwards, be enthusiastic and try to get involved, always ask for more work, do your AI's early, get 5 letters of recommendation, etc.) it almost makes my stomach churn. All that political BS, the schmoozing and "networking," was what I hated about the corporate world. What I liked about medicine was the idea that you study, you pass the tests, and presto, you have a great job. I thought I left all that bull**** behind. I don't want to beg some ******* attending for more work I don't want, to come in early and stay late and act all enthusiastic so I can get 5 letters of recommendation (at this point I can't even imagine getting one, let alone 5), when I don't even ****ing want to be a doctor at all. So I'm not sure I could handle even the residency application process, let alone residency itself.

So....I'm curious without the desire to study human bodies and help people, what stats did you have to get into medical school? High GPA and MCAT?

That is actually a great question, because I've been playing up the idea that the reason I went into medicine is simply that I thought it would have certain positive ramifications for my personal life. What I haven't really mentioned, though, is that while that was what sparked my interest, I actually did manage to become fairly interested in medicine for a time. I mean, I knew you can't fake your way through AMCAS, secondaries, interviews, not to mention all of medical school and ERAS. I knew I had to really want to do this in order to succeed at it. So, what I did is I set about convincing myself that I reallly did want to be a doctor. I kept telling myself I really was interested, to the point where it did stick for a while. When I went on interviews and discussed my desire to enter medicine, I wasn't lying through my teeth; I really did want to be there. I started off strong in medical school; at the beginning I really did find what we were learning to be interesting. I was excited to be making progress and actually could see myself in residency someday. The interest was genuine while it lasted, but it wasn't enough to be self-sustaining when my personal life, the true original motivation, didn't come together the way I had hoped. It started to wane around the beginning of second year, and now I feel like a total fish out of water.

So, yes, I did have a pretty good post-bacc GPA (though my original undergrad GPA was nothing to write home about) and a great MCAT score, but I was genuinely interested for a while. I didn't have to "fake" my way through application essays and interviews; I really meant it at the time.

 

[smarty666]

I have come across this discussion and I am in the same predicament now, on whether to focus my attention on trying to go for a MD or PA degree?

I understand completely what the differences are and I personally feel I could live with and be a great PA. I don't care about not being called doctor, or having the finally decision in all cases. What matters most to me is getting to help and see patients and trying to make them feel better. I like the fact as a PA, you have a physician to fall back on if it is a complicated case or you have a question you want to consult with them about.

I'm leaning toward the PA route for several reasons. I just found out today that AMACS has calculated my cGPA to be 3.39 and sGPA to be 3.24 despite my school stating cGPA of 3.45 and sGPA of 3.35. As you can see, my GPA is no where near competative for allopathic med school. I would either have to take some more undergrad classes to raise my undergrad GPA or do a SMP in order to have any chance of going to med school. I haven't taken the MCAT yet but I've always done avg on standardized tests (SAT and GRE) so I know I'm lucky if I got a 28 or 29 MCAT score.

There are many non-competitive PA schools that don't even require standardized tests so I wouldn't even have to take the MCAT. I think my GPA would give me a better shot at PA school then med school, since most of the schools I looked at wanted no less than a 2.75 cGPA.

What do you guys think. At the end of the day, all I'm concerned with is going into primary care and seeing and treating patients. I'm not interested in prestige, loads of money, research, etc. Do you think getting a lot of volunteer and clinical experience and applying to PA school in 3 or 4 years would be the better alternative to med school for me?

 

[deleted6669]

yor gpa is low for pa schools too. The min cutoffs to apply that you see on websites will not even get you an interview. a good friend of mine with a 3.5 didn't get an interview last yr.
why don't you take mcat and apply do/carib. as you really want to be a DOC.

 

[illegallysmooth]

I have come across this discussion and I am in the same predicament now, on whether to focus my attention on trying to go for a MD or PA degree?

I understand completely what the differences are and I personally feel I could live with and be a great PA. I don't care about not being called doctor, or having the finally decision in all cases. What matters most to me is getting to help and see patients and trying to make them feel better. I like the fact as a PA, you have a physician to fall back on if it is a complicated case or you have a question you want to consult with them about.

I'm leaning toward the PA route for several reasons. I just found out today that AMACS has calculated my cGPA to be 3.39 and sGPA to be 3.24 despite my school stating cGPA of 3.45 and sGPA of 3.35. As you can see, my GPA is no where near competative for allopathic med school. I would either have to take some more undergrad classes to raise my undergrad GPA or do a SMP in order to have any chance of going to med school. I haven't taken the MCAT yet but I've always done avg on standardized tests (SAT and GRE) so I know I'm lucky if I got a 28 or 29 MCAT score.

There are many non-competitive PA schools that don't even require standardized tests so I wouldn't even have to take the MCAT. I think my GPA would give me a better shot at PA school then med school, since most of the schools I looked at wanted no less than a 2.75 cGPA.

What do you guys think. At the end of the day, all I'm concerned with is going into primary care and seeing and treating patients. I'm not interested in prestige, loads of money, research, etc. Do you think getting a lot of volunteer and clinical experience and applying to PA school in 3 or 4 years would be the better alternative to med school for me?

I am confused as to why you are considering PA but don't seem to be considering DO? You realize MD = DO?

I had a 3.2 undergrad and 3.3 in an SMP, 34 MCAT. I got 4 interviews at DO schools and 1 MD interview, still on pre-interview hold at a few MD programs. I applied quite late in the cycle. Due to the number of "holds" I got before being rejected, I think I would have had a couple more MD interviews had I applied earlier.

You have ~3.4/3.24. Why are you considering PA if you want to be a doctor?

 

[smarty666]

I am confused as to why you are considering PA but don't seem to be considering DO? You realize MD = DO?

I had a 3.2 undergrad and 3.3 in an SMP, 34 MCAT. I got 4 interviews at DO schools and 1 MD interview, still on pre-interview hold at a few MD programs. I applied quite late in the cycle. Due to the number of "holds" I got before being rejected, I think I would have had a couple more MD interviews had I applied earlier.

You have ~3.4/3.24. Why are you considering PA if you want to be a doctor?

Well here is the thing. I have back problems. Some of which I am still having troubles with so nothing is really set in stone for anything yet. I had a spinal fusion last year but am still suffering severe radiculopathy in my right hip, leg, and foot. Luckily, I have a great neurologist, neurosurgeon, and PM&R who are optimistic about my chances. That being said, I can not do a DO program because of the physical modalities/manipulations that are taught, practiced, and supposed to be performed by DO students. I cannot be in MS1 or MS2 and have to perform a funky manipulation that throws my back out. So can see where I'm going with this. I have two friends in DO programs from undergrad who I've spoken to about this and they said you do have to do a lot of chiropractic/PT manipulations in a DO programs and are expected to use them for treatment as necessary.

So that leaves me with MD and PA. I'm considering PA as my back-up simply because in reality, I'm not looking for prestige, money, etc etc and as I'm getting older and am still having health problems, med school is looking less and less likely, simply because of the time commitment, and the physical rigors of residency, which you obviously don't have as a PA since you don't have a residency. Now, I'm not saying a PA program is easy or a walk in a park either, because it most certainly is not, but the time commitment and intensity of a PA program does not equal that of a MD or DO program, but if it takes a few more years for me to get well then I might consider the PA route so that I don't have to give up my dream on treating and seeing patients. Personally, that is all I really care about doing, is seeing and treating patients in primary care. I have no interest in research, surgery, or the administrative BS and loopholes/problems that MDs and DOs have to go through or being called doctor, etc.

But PA and med school programs have similar requirements for admissions so what I do for one won't go to waste if I have to go a different career route. It all is going to depend on what happens with my health. Sorry I didn't give more background to my circumstances but I didn't think you would want to hear about my medical problems.

 

[smarty666]

yor gpa is low for pa schools too. The min cutoffs to apply that you see on websites will not even get you an interview. a good friend of mine with a 3.5 didn't get an interview last yr.
why don't you take mcat and apply do/carib. as you really want to be a DOC.

First off, even if I eventually went the PA route, I would not be applying to super competitive programs. I would apply to programs around me that have no standardized test requirements and have 2.75 or 3.0 GPA cut-offs. I would plan to maybe do a special masters program and get really good EC/ health care experience.

I have no idea based on your one friends experience why he didn't get an interview. He could have applied to super competitive programs, not applied to enough programs, had other areas of his app lacking, etc etc, there is no way for me to know.

I have to go by what my personal situation is and what I feel is the right course. Unfortunately, right now my future is quite uncertain with my health.

 

[deleted6669]

First off, even if I eventually went the PA route, I would not be applying to super competitive programs. I would apply to programs around me that have no standardized test requirements and have 2.75 or 3.0 GPA cut-offs. I would plan to maybe do a special masters program and get really good EC/ health care experience.

.

What I am saying is realistically NO PROGRAM will accept an applicant with a 2.75 to 3.0 gpa unless they have the world's best hce. most places will not even give you an interview with less than a 3.2
they say 2.75-3.0 for the rare super exceptional student( gpa is 2.9 but is a nurse for 20 yrs, raised 3 kids by herself in wartorn bosnia while volunteering night shifts every day at the red cross...you get the idea....).

 

[Yeesh]

I am confused as to why you are considering PA but don't seem to be considering DO? You realize MD = DO?

I had a 3.2 undergrad and 3.3 in an SMP, 34 MCAT. I got 4 interviews at DO schools and 1 MD interview, still on pre-interview hold at a few MD programs. I applied quite late in the cycle. Due to the number of "holds" I got before being rejected, I think I would have had a couple more MD interviews had I applied earlier.

You have ~3.4/3.24. Why are you considering PA if you want to be a doctor?

I second this. If you really want to go medical school, DO is a good choice. Plus, DO schools are willingly to do grade replacement, so your GPA can be higher if you have time to put in the effort. Also, I'm not sure if how many still do this but, some schools only consider your highest MCAT score on multiple attempts. (Any care to confirm?)

 

[Tigerct]

What I am saying is realistically NO PROGRAM will accept an applicant with a 2.75 to 3.0 gpa unless they have the world's best hce. most places will not even give you an interview with less than a 3.2
they say 2.75-3.0 for the rare super exceptional student( gpa is 2.9 but is a nurse for 20 yrs, raised 3 kids by herself in wartorn bosnia while volunteering night shifts every day at the red cross...you get the idea....).

Just go for the program that is good for you personally MD/DO/PA. Don't listen to anyone that claims you have no chance. I believe EMEPDA is a great PA and moderator of PA forum but when it comes to advising PA applicant he is brutal about GPA/HCE. With your GPA you can get into 100 PA school out of ~ 143 schools and some MD/DO with a decent MCAT. Don't let anyone discourage you from pursuing your dream (what ever that might be)

 

[PAGuyana]

If you think being a PA is an easier job physically than being a doctor, you're in for a rude awakening.

 

[deleted6669]

Just go for the program that is good for you personally MD/DO/PA. Don't listen to anyone that claims you have no chance. I believe EMEPDA is a great PA and moderator of PA forum but when it comes to advising PA applicant he is brutal about GPA/HCE. With your GPA you can get into 100 PA school out of ~ 143 schools and some MD/DO with a decent MCAT. Don't let anyone discourage you from pursuing your dream (what ever that might be)

Sorry to break it to you but a 3.4 with ZERO medical experience will not get you into 100 of 150 programs. the avg last yr for all schools was a 3.5 and 2 yrs of hce.
the response I gave earlier was about getting into pa school with a 2.75. not going to happen.
a 3.4 with no experience will get you into some lower tier programs but none that I would recommend.
this applicant should go DO with those stats assuming they can pull at least a 24 mcat.

 

[deleted6669]

If you think being a PA is an easier job physically than being a doctor, you're in for a rude awakening.

exactly. I don't know any pa's who work fewer hrs than the docs they work with.
hospitalist and surgical pa's are at the hospital rounding while the doc is still in bed. surgical pa's then go to the o.r. with the doc and first assist, then they do all the afternoon rounding and d/c summaries. this is why docs hire pa's, to do the scut that keeps them in the hospital late at night or forces them to arrive in the early am. it lets the surgeons operate and do nothing else.
in em most pa's work 160-180 hrs/mo while most em docs after residency work 120-150 hrs/mo.

the only docs who work more than their pa's are solo fp guys who run the office as well as work clinically. they put in long hrs and have the pa around to backstop them so they can get admin stuff done and see enough pts to expand the practice beyond 25 pts/day.

 

[smarty666]

exactly. I don't know any pa's who work fewer hrs than the docs they work with.
hospitalist and surgical pa's are at the hospital rounding while the doc is still in bed. surgical pa's then go to the o.r. with the doc and first assist, then they do all the afternoon rounding and d/c summaries. this is why docs hire pa's, to do the scut that keeps them in the hospital late at night or forces them to arrive in the early am. it lets the surgeons operate and do nothing else.
in em most pa's work 160-180 hrs/mo while most em docs after residency work 120-150 hrs/mo.

the only docs who work more than their pa's are solo fp guys who run the office as well as work clinically. they put in long hrs and have the pa around to backstop them so they can get admin stuff done and see enough pts to expand the practice beyond 25 pts/day.

emedpa, thanks for the all the information you've given! I absolutely know my GPA and HCE is not competitive to apply right now I really want to find a health care job but its going to take time since the usual avenues of jobs I can not do because of my 20-30lb limitations. Like I said, I have to get my own health problems under control and work and volunteer for a while before I could even consider applying! I was just curious to hear everybodys opinions on the matter.

Depending on how much scut work, long work hours, etc PAs put in, as you pointed out depends a lot on what area/speciality your working in! PA's working with surgeons or EM are goign to put in a lot more hours than PAs working in primary care FM or IM. I am more interested in the latter, not for the easier overall work hours, but because my area of interest is IM and several of the sub-specialities.

One of the big advantages I like about PA over MD is the fact you can work in almost any area of medicine upon certification. As I mentioned before, I have several areas of IM I have specific interests in and I don't ever know if I could pick a specialty that I have to commit to for the rest of my career and as you know, in MD/DO its very difficult to change specialties once you have chosen one. Compared that to PA where you can work in surgery for a while, then do primary care if you want, etc. Your not locked into a specialty with being a PA.

But then again, there are advantages MD/DO's have over PAs so it can work both ways. You have to weigh the pros and cons of each career choice and decide what is best for you and your circumstances. PA's have tremendous job security and for the near future there is going to be a demand for them. That has to be a reason why consistently, year after year, PA's are in the top five occupations for highest job satisfaction where as MD/DOs, while having a higher job satisfaction than average, are much lower than PAs are in that area. I think going the PA route for primary care can not be that bad in regards to tremendous scut work and long work hours, because that was what I was planning on going into. I'm not in this for the money, I am in it for the job security there is with being a PA and because I am a people person and after going through so much medically myself, I want to use my medical science knowledge/nterest to help people live better lives, which my doctors are trying to help me to do.

I thought, at least in primary care, MD/DOs have to deal with more of the administrative BS of the office and insurance companies with denials, writing letters of appeals, etc where the PA's in primary care practice gets see the patients more? Also, why is it on SDN and other sites, I hear from many pre-meds who parents are doctors pushing them to go to PA school rather than medical school? That is something that really is a big turn off for, at least for me, to becoming a MD. My internist told me he spends half his days on the phone and writing letters to insurance companies trying to get people's tests, therapies, and medications approve because they decided to deny and not pay for any of it for no reason. Also, he told me its getting worse year after year with the insurance companies with denying treatments and then he can not treat his patients adequately. PAs typically do not have to deal with that in primary care because the insurance companies want the letters and conversations to come from a MD/DO.

 

[smarty666]

Sorry to break it to you but a 3.4 with ZERO medical experience will not get you into 100 of 150 programs. the avg last yr for all schools was a 3.5 and 2 yrs of hce.
the response I gave earlier was about getting into pa school with a 2.75. not going to happen.
a 3.4 with no experience will get you into some lower tier programs but none that I would recommend.
this applicant should go DO with those stats assuming they can pull at least a 24 mcat.

I know you wouldn't get into PA school with a 2.75 or 3.0 GPA. I was just saying that several low ranked programs have that listed as the minimum requirements for admissions.

One of the things I forgot to mention and you just reminded me with this statement, I have been leaning away from the DO programs, despite being more competitive for them, because of the physical modalities/manipulations requirements those programs have. I have two friends from college in DO school right now and I've asked them about those PT/DC techniques. They have mentioned that they have to consistently practice and perform them on patients when necessary and a good amount of them require physical bending and odd positioning for them to perform them. I'm not sure because of my fusion and spinal troubles if I'd be able to do them or not without hurting my back.

You can imagine I don't want to be in the middle of DO school and throw my back out while trying to perform one of those physical modalities/manipulations and then have to leave. I'm trying to hear from osteopathic students on SDN about my concerns but yet to hear from any.

 

[Savage Henry]

emedpa, thanks for the all the information you've given! I absolutely know my GPA and HCE is not competitive to apply right now I really want to find a health care job but its going to take time since the usual avenues of jobs I can not do because of my 20-30lb limitations.

I probably sound like a broken record, but I'll say this again:

Take a look at phlebotomy to start. As a phlebotomist, you go all over the hospital and work with all kinds of people. Phlebotomy has a very a low barrier of entry (weeks of school and hundreds of dollars vs. years of school and thousands of dollars). Work as a phleb for awhile and keep your eyes open. You never know what might pique your interest. Talk to x-ray techs, respiratory therapists, nurses, medical technologists, social workers, nurses, docs, and PAs. See what interests you and what might fit. There are a ton of things to do in healthcare - more than you could possibly know without working in the field for awhile. Don't rush into things - get a feel for what's out there.

Just do some checking on the phlebotomy school - there are a metric crapload of scams out there.

 

[smarty666]

Thanks Henry for the suggestion. It is a good job in that you get to move around often on.

Listen, I'm just curious to find out from you all, are hospital pharmacy tech, hospital admissions, patient representative, medical lab technician any jobs that are considered reasonable for HCE in regards to PA school?

 

[Savage Henry]

There is a great PA forum here.

As far as HCE goes, here is what the PA school closest to where I live says:

Clinical Criteria

a. The candidate must have completed and documented at least 2000 hours of paid direct patient contact in a health care setting between September 1, 2005 and September 1, 2010.
​

They are pretty strict about direct patient contact, as well. It must be hands on with patients in some capacity, and it has to be your job - not a volunteer thing. Not all PA schools have that as a requirement, but many do. Emedpa is probably the best dude to ask about that stuff in these here parts.

 

[smarty666]

There is a great PA forum here.

As far as HCE goes, here is what the PA school closest to where I live says:

They are pretty strict about direct patient contact, as well. It must be hands on with patients in some capacity, and it has to be your job - not a volunteer thing. Not all PA schools have that as a requirement, but many do. Emedpa is probably the best dude to ask about that stuff in these here parts.

No that is pretty clear. They want you to be in a position where your either helping or directly interacting with patients. Makes sense since that is what you will be doing as a PA. As long as the job allows you to do this patient interaction, you should be okay.

Thanks again for the help!

 

[MedLurker]

Just go for the program that is good for you personally MD/DO/PA. Don’t listen to anyone that claims you have no chance. I believe EMEPDA is a great PA and moderator of PA forum but when it comes to advising PA applicant he is brutal about GPA/HCE. With your GPA you can get into 100 PA school out of ~ 143 schools and some MD/DO with a decent MCAT. Don’t let anyone discourage you from pursuing your dream (what ever that might be)

I would have to agree. A 3.0 gpa would suffice for PA schools.

 

[Savage Henry]

I would have to agree. A 3.0 gpa would suffice for PA schools.

I dunno, dude.

I occasionally wrestle with the PA vs MD/DO thing, and I've done a lot of research. What I've found fairly consistently is that a 3.0 will only suffice if the rest of your app is badass. Don't just look at what the school says it will accept, look at the averages for the people who matriculate. At the University of Colorado, for example, the PA students and the med students have pretty similar GPAs. The stated minimum requirements, however, are much different.

I don't claim to know everything, but I think anyone would be much better served with a GPA much higher than 3.0. As always - your mileage may vary, and I am definitely not an authority on this sort of thing, I'm just sharing my research.

 

[MedLurker]

I dunno, dude.

I occasionally wrestle with the PA vs MD/DO thing, and I've done a lot of research. What I've found fairly consistently is that a 3.0 will only suffice if the rest of your app is badass. Don't just look at what the school says it will accept, look at the averages for the people who matriculate. At the University of Colorado, for example, the PA students and the med students have pretty similar GPAs. The stated minimum requirements, however, are much different.

I don't claim to know everything, but I think anyone would be much better served with a GPA much higher than 3.0. As always - your mileage may vary, and I am definitely not an authority on this sort of thing, I'm just sharing my research.

I understand where you're coming from but I was explaining from my own experience as well. I am a non-trad (cGPA was a little higher than 3.1) and did a post-bacc to take science classes (around 3.0 gpa) then took the GRE. My health care experience was limited to one year as an MA. I think if anything, good letter of recommendations help a lot. I was accepted to my state school (the class gpa is about 3.2) that is highly reputable.

 

[Starpower]

I was accepted to my state school (the class gpa is about 3.2) that is highly reputable.

You're very lucky, however, that does not mean, as you stated, that, "A 3.0 GPA would suffice for PA schools." It sufficed for YOUR PA school (and maybe you should share the name of that school with the people looking for help), but that doesn't automatically mean that it will suffice for ALL schools.

When you've applied to all PA schools, and not gotten any letters of rejection back stating that your GPA wasn't adequate, let us know. I applied with a c3.5 (thousands hours of experience and great letters of reference) and got 3 or 4 rejection letters stating just that.

 

[deleted6669]

yup, avg gpa for accepted applicants last yr for all pa schools was 3.5
for md programs it was 3.6.
not a lot of difference here.....

 

[MedLurker]

You're very lucky, however, that does not mean, as you stated, that, "A 3.0 GPA would suffice for PA schools." It sufficed for YOUR PA school (and maybe you should share the name of that school with the people looking for help), but that doesn't automatically mean that it will suffice for ALL schools.

When you've applied to all PA schools, and not gotten any letters of rejection back stating that your GPA wasn't adequate, let us know. I applied with a c3.5 (thousands hours of experience and great letters of reference) and got 3 or 4 rejection letters stating just that.

Simmer down, dude. No need to make up for your shortcomings or insecurities by trying to defend the competitiveness of PA admissions by saying that I was "lucky". Perhaps you got rejected not because of your stats but because of the way you come across as a person.

Accept it as it is. I got in with my stats and I'm sure thousands of others have as well. I don't why some people on these forums try to dissuade others from applying by saying you don't have a chance with a gpa in the low 3s even with the world's best health care experience which is complete bull ****.

 

[deleted6669]

with GREAT experience(say paramedic/rn/rt) it is possible to get into pa school with a 3.2 or so. the same person could also get into a DO program or carib medschool.
the problem is when folks with a bs in bio and a gpa of 2.75-3.1 think they are a shoe in wherever they apply then they get no interviews.
I have been on admission committees where the first cut long before we even look at personal statements, mix of courses, etc is a gpa of at least 3.0 so 40% of the apps go in the trash without any more screening. then the next cut is 2000 hrs of relevant experience. if they have 2000 hrs that isn't relevant(say medical receptionist- we disregard the hrs). another 40% in the trash. then comb through the remaining 20% and interview half of them and accept half of those so 1 in 10 total apps or 1 in 2 well qualified apps.
it's not a big mystery. if the program says "competitive applicants look like xyz" and you look nothing like that don't apply there.

 

[MedLurker]

with GREAT experience(say paramedic/rn/rt) it is possible to get into pa school with a 3.2 or so. the same person could also get into a DO program or carib medschool.

That's great to hear that the same person could get into a DO/MD school but i don't care and it certainly wasn't my point. It is this kind of insecurity I'm talking about in this thread that attempts to dissuade prospective PA students from applying to PA school. Insecure PAs and PA students that feel the need to make our field seem as prestigious and competitive as med school...cool...but I don't care and it's not my agenda.

I'm just trying to tell the prospective student that he/she can get into a PA program with a gpa in low 3s. There are no guarantees in any application process. Even a person with 4.0 gpa has no guarantee of getting an interview, so the rationale behind telling someone that they have no shot with their gpa is misleading.

 

[deleted6669]

Medlurker- have you ever been on a pa admissions committee?
or screened applications to decide who to interview and who not to?
didn't think so....
maybe I have a clue about this as I have done both for many yrs...

 

[MedLurker]

Medlurker- have you ever been on a pa admissions committee?
or screened applications to decide who to interview and who not to?
didn't think so....
maybe I have a clue about this as I have done both for many yrs...

No and I don't intend to. What do you want, a trophy?
Seriously, get over yourself. I think you provide great insight into the field on this forum but when it comes to admissions, you deter all prospective applicants then immediately always give some remark about being as competitive as medical school or the same as medical school. If you're concerned about where you are on the totem pole go back to med school instead of deterring people with GPAs less than 3.5
Like I said before, I'm just trying to provide insight as a PA student to another forum member that it is possible to get into PA school with a GPA in low 3s. There are nearly 150 PA programs out there but you speak like there is only one.
And thanks for editing out that last condescending remark because it could have been offensive to forum members sensitive to age.

 

[smarty666]

No and I don't intend to. What do you want, a trophy?
Seriously, get over yourself. I think you provide great insight into the field on this forum but when it comes to admissions, you deter all prospective applicants then immediately always give some remark about being as competitive as medical school or the same as medical school. If you're concerned about where you are on the totem pole go back to med school instead of deterring people with GPAs less than 3.5
Like I said before, I'm just trying to provide insight as a PA student to another forum member that it is possible to get into PA school with a GPA in low 3s. There are nearly 150 PA programs out there but you speak like there is only one.
And thanks for editing out that last condescending remark because it could have been offensive to forum members sensitive to age.

Listen, emedpa is right to a point about GPA. Most PA schools are looking for a certain GPA but I know of at least 5-6 people who got into PA schools with 3.2-3.5 GPAs with good HC experience. I myself have a 3.4 cGPA which I know would at least get me a few interviews but I don't have any health care experience so right now, I wouldn't have a shot. I wouldn't even think about applying till I had 2-3 years worth of HCE. Just like for med school, you need to make your overall application as well-rounded and competitive as possible.

 

[MedLurker]

Listen, emedpa is right to a point about GPA. Most PA schools are looking for a certain GPA but I know of at least 5-6 people who got into PA schools with 3.2-3.5 GPAs with good HC experience. I myself have a 3.4 cGPA which I know would at least get me a few interviews but I don't have any health care experience so right now, I wouldn't have a shot. I wouldn't even think about applying till I had 2-3 years worth of HCE. Just like for med school, you need to make your overall application as well-rounded and competitive as possible.

You're right, you wouldn't have a shot without any health care experience. I believe most schools have a minimum number of hours required of health care experience when you apply. A year of experience under your belt and you'll have a shot with your gpa. Good luck!

 

[deleted6669]

but when it comes to admissions, you deter all prospective applicants then immediately always give some remark about being as competitive as medical school or the same as medical school. If you're concerned about where you are on the totem pole go back to med school instead of deterring people with GPAs less than 3.5

Seems you have learned a lot here in your vast 3 days of experience as a member of sdn.
we are basically saying the same thing if you will read back over posts. we both said 3.4 + hce = a reasonable chance. my point was 2.75 to 3.0 and ZERO hce = no chance at all except at the worst pa program out there.

 

[MedLurker]

Seems you have learned a lot here in your vast 3 days of experience as a member of sdn.
we are basically saying the same thing if you will read back over posts. we both said 3.4 + hce = a reasonable chance. my point was 2.75 to 3.0 and ZERO hce = no chance at all except at the worst pa program out there.

I don't think it's that I've learned as it is the fact that you misinterpreted what I said.
I never said no healthcare experience would get you into PA school because PA schools require healthcare experience. Where did I mention no healthcare experience? I specifically mentioned my gpa and healthcare experience to Starpower as an example of someone with a gpa in the low 3s that was able to get into PA school, who replied that I was "lucky" to get accepted given my stats. Your posts that followed, kept emphasizing how admissions is comparable to med school which I don't give a rats a$s about because it wasn't relevant to what I had to say.

 

[UnitedWay211]

Seems you have learned a lot here in your vast 3 days of experience as a member of sdn.
we are basically saying the same thing if you will read back over posts. we both said 3.4 + hce = a reasonable chance. my point was 2.75 to 3.0 and ZERO hce = no chance at all except at the worst pa program out there.

No chance for U.S. med school (even the lowest ranked) with this GPA range, unless there were EXTRAORDINARY circumstances. Even then I wouldn't bank on it. Also DO schools are becoming very competitive, if not just as.

 

[deleted6669]

No chance for U.S. med school (even the lowest ranked) with this GPA range, unless there were EXTRAORDINARY circumstances. Even then I wouldn't bank on it. .

THE STATS SAY OTHERWISE:
http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/table24-mcatgpa-grid-3yrs-app-accpt.htm

NOTE THE FOLKS WITH SUB 2.0 GPA'S ACCEPTED TO US MED SCHOOLS....

CHECKMATE.

 

[Tigerct]

THE STATS SAY OTHERWISE:
http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/table24-mcatgpa-grid-3yrs-app-accpt.htm

NOTE THE FOLKS WITH SUB 2.0 GPA'S ACCEPTED TO US MED SCHOOLS....

CHECKMATE.

Common EMEDPA, you r still comparing med school and PA school applicant…they r totally different, plus as MedLurker said no one is talking about med school application The link you just posted shows there are applicants who got into med school with GPA 2.6-2.99 and MCAT 5-17, and you think it is extremely difficult if not impossible to get into PA school with low 3.0 and couple yrs of HCE!!!