You guys called me crazy but looks like I'm right...

Started by BenJammin
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awval999 said:
At least---- at least---

And it's hard to even say this----

At least it's an established school with ties to the flagship University of Texas system.

But lol pharmacy is the new law.
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If it happens, they would be the least respected pharmacy school in the region. Even UNT is more respectable of an institution than UT-Tyler.
 
WVUPharm2007 said:
I want to play Left 4 Dead 2 now.

Most people like being the infected because you prey on the other players. I like to be the survivors because I ruin other peoples' fun.
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Give Dead Space 3 a try, playing it right now and its is awesome! A truly thrilling shooter that gets your heart racing, way better than the tired call of duty series.
 
All4MyDaughter said:
Congrats on being right, but when did we call you crazy? When have you ever posted about this before? 😕
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First I've seen this discussed on SDN as well.

Texas (6 + 2 in development) and California (8 + 5 in development) are in an arms race to have the most pharmacy schools. Pennsylvania seems maxed out at 7 (unless Penn State Hershey decides to open a school), leaving New York left to keep pace.

Did I just mention the Empire State? Looks like someone is having thoughts on opening pharmacy school #8 there:
- http://www.wbng.com/news/local/Pharmacy-School-Could-Come-to-BU-189107161.html

"The state of New York only has seven pharmacy schools, of which only one--SUNY Buffalo--is public. None of the schools are closer than two or three hours away, Stenger said."

Heaven forbid a population center not be served by a pharmacy school within a two hour drive! (and let's ignore Wilkes- while only 90 minutes away, that's in another state and obviously doesn't count.)
 
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297point1 said:
First I've seen this discussed on SDN as well.

Texas (6 + 2 in development) and California (8 + 5 in development) are in an arms race to have the most pharmacy schools. Pennsylvania seems maxed out at 7 (unless Penn State Hershey decides to open a school), leaving New York left to keep pace.

Did I just mention the Empire State? Looks like someone is having thoughts on opening pharmacy school #8 there:
- http://www.wbng.com/news/local/Pharmacy-School-Could-Come-to-BU-189107161.html

"The state of New York only has seven pharmacy schools, of which only one--SUNY Buffalo--is public. None of the schools are closer than two or three hours away, Stenger said."

Heaven forbid a population center not be served by a pharmacy school within a two hour drive! (and let's ignore Wilkes- while only 90 minutes away, that's in another state and obviously doesn't count.)
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What they fail to take into account is that all the students who go to Binghamton come from places with actual populations to speak of - these places already have pharmacy schools. For shame.
 
PharmD = Entry Level Degree for any job in America. Period. No Exceptions.
McDonald's? PharmD.
Janitor? PharmD.
Construction? PharmD.
Mowing a lawn? PharmD.
Air Hostess? PharmD.
 
It's not easy to open a medical school, and most people now know not to attend law school... why not open a pharmacy school? Pharmacy school = what law schools were a decade ago.

At least pharmacy schools are smart enough not to publish employment rates which would have to be inflated with counting per diem jobs as employment. This way you avoid students suing the schools like law students are currently doing.

I will say it again: current pharmacy schools need to adapt and adjust to the lack of clinical/retail jobs (many of which will go to automation in the near future) with providing skills and knowledge for non-traditional roles.
 
koercive said:
It's not easy to open a medical school, and most people now know not to attend law school... why not open a pharmacy school? Pharmacy school = what law schools were a decade ago.

At least pharmacy schools are smart enough not to publish employment rates which would have to be inflated with counting per diem jobs as employment. This way you avoid students suing the schools like law students are currently doing.

I will say it again: current pharmacy schools need to adapt and adjust to the lack of clinical/retail jobs (many of which will go to automation in the near future) with providing skills and knowledge for non-traditional roles.
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Yes, America is all about get rich quick scheme these days, I got mine, screw yours

And will these naive moony eyed pharmacy students, and, by extension, the middle class, be able to stand up against the powers that be? (The forces of darkness)

We are being squeezed from above and below, and I fear the middle class will not be able to rescue itself.

For what constitutes the middle class? It is someone who follows the rules

As opposed to someone who makes them (upper class) or breaks them (lower class)
 
trailerpark said:
So who decided which pharmD is the pharmacist and which is the technician?
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If pharmacy professions turns out to be the next legal profession, employers will decide which PharmDs will be hired as pharmacists and which will be technicians.

Top 20% of the graduating class will have a very good shot at being hired as pharmacists while the remaining 80% of the graduating class will compete with each other for the remaining limited spots.

Among the bottom 80% group, the ones with exceptional work experience and accomplishments (e.g. national counseling competition winners) or networking skills probably will get a pharmacist job.

It's no secret that there will be more PharmD graduates than what the market can absorb at this rate. In the future where the pharmacist jobs can only absorb 50% of the pharmacy school graduates, the other 50% will have a very little choice and will be grateful to even have a paying pharmacy related job, especially with the 250k+ debt.

Those days are not here yet but we are getting there with new schools opening each year.
 
PriorAuth is pretty much spot on.

There are still new grad lawyers making >$150k in BigLaw.

There will still be pharmacist grads making >$100k as RPhs, it's just that it will go to the creme de la creme. Best schools, best graduates, best interns etc. Would not surprise me at all to see Walgreens start to sponsor PGY-1s and PGY-2s residencies et al to get 1-2 years of free labor before handing out the big bucks. Could easily see them making PGY1/2 combination PIC Management Residencies. Wouldn't be too hard for them to guarantee a job in nowheresville as a PIC after completion but in the mean time they get two years of a new grad working 80 hour weeks.

It also wouldn't surprise me to see the chains go "BigLaw" and make you work your tail off to make "partner" ie: PIC or staff and if you don't make your metrics, etc, say goodbye and they will just hire a new grad like the law firms do.

In hospital you will just continue to see more and more competition and hoops to jump through in order to get a job. At my community hospital is a great example, we have 2 PGY-1 residents every year. Why would we hire an outside candidate when we can just pick the best resident each year?
 
awval999 said:
There are still new grad lawyers making >$150k in BigLaw....It also wouldn't surprise me to see the chains go "BigLaw" and make you work your tail off to make "partner" ie: PIC or staff and if you don't make your metrics, etc, say goodbye and they will just hire a new grad like the law firms do.
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You hit the nail on the head.

The thing about law is that it makes a big difference when you graduate within the top 10% of your class. For pharmacy, nobody cares that you graduate with rho chi. As a matter of fact, people may actually question you when you graduate with a 4.0. It's very difficult to distinguish yourself in pharmacy. A guy who interned at a major hospital is no better than a guy who interned at CVS. Do you think CVS really cares that you published some paper? that you were elected president of some organization? All they care about is metrics. How fast you answered the phone. How many people you got to sign up for their ExtraCare rewards program.
 
pharmalt82 said:
PharmD = Entry Level Degree for any job in America. Period. No Exceptions.
McDonald's? PharmD.
Janitor? PharmD.
Construction? PharmD.
Mowing a lawn? PharmD.
Air Hostess? PharmD.
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Actually, a sizable percentage of flight attendants have college degrees. At one time, they had to be RNs.
 
owlegrad said:
The boss' son is the RPh and his nephew is the technician.
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Threadjack: I used to work with a man who did relief work at a small-town independent store where his mother worked as a technician. Even though he looked just like her (except for his balding head 😀), he wasn't comfortable calling her "Mom" in front of customers, so he called her by her first name. His mom was a LPN who didn't want to work as a nurse any more.
 
BMBiology said:
You hit the nail on the head.

The thing about law is that it makes a big difference when you graduate within the top 10% of your class. For pharmacy, nobody cares that you graduate with rho chi. As a matter of fact, people may actually question you when you graduate with a 4.0. It's very difficult to distinguish yourself in pharmacy. A guy who interned at a major hospital is no better than a guy who interned at CVS. Do you think CVS really cares that you published some paper? that you were elected president of some organization? All they care about is metrics. How fast you answered the phone. How many people you got to sign up for their ExtraCare rewards program.
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Chains don't care at the moment but I think they will be picky when the time comes.

It's all about supply and demand and we all know that supply of PharmDs will be far greater than demand for PharmDs in the future at this rate.

Retail pharmacy jobs will be considered super prestigious among the graduates and people who are able to acquire such jobs will be envied among the students as the winners of pharmacy school game.

These PharmD pharmacists ($120k jobs) will provide "pharmaceutical care," flu shots, DUR, verify prescriptions, counseling and other traditional pharmacist duties while the PharmD technicians ($50k jobs) will primarily focus on the metrics, paper works, administrative works and customer service.
Basically something similar to an attorney and paralegal relationship will arise in pharmacy profession.
Most JDs can't even get a paralegal job nowadays so at least PharmD tech job is a pretty good gig if most PharmDs can get them.

Anyway, this is how I see the future of pharmacy profession.
I hope I'm wrong but the current state of law schools (supply >>>>>>> demand) suggests that my predictions may come true.
 
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A lot of new private schools are postponing their deadlines on PharmCAS, which may be due to lack of applicants. Even some schools are postponing till late May... I think the decline of applicants to these schools may help reduce the job market saturation...What do yall think?
 
Sher99 said:
A lot of new private schools are postponing their deadlines on PharmCAS, which may be due to lack of applicants. Even some schools are postponing till late May... I think the decline of applicants to these schools may help reduce the job market saturation...What do yall think?
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Based on my calculations, the market won't even start to get any better until we reduce enrollment by as much as 66%. That is when [total increase in supply] = [total increase in demand].
 
PharmtoCS said:
Based on my calculations, the market won't even start to get any better until we reduce enrollment by as much as 66%. That is when [total increase in supply] = [total increase in demand].
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Could you please explain how do you calculate the demand? Did you consider positions in the industry?
 
Residency for a PIC at CVS/WAGS? They don't fill these positions that easily to begin with and they're fairly high turnover considering the pay. I know you were just kidding but it's really not that bad to get a job. Maybe in 10 years.
 
Sher99 said:
Could you please explain how do you calculate the demand? Did you consider positions in the industry?
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I based it off the BLS figures of 14% projected growth over 10 years, or 4,140 new jobs per year compared to roughly 14,000 new pharmacy graduates per year. It looks like the BLS does not include jobs in industry, which employs a very small percentage of PharmDs and typically requires 1-2 years of fellowship.
http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/pharmacists.htm#tab-1
 
SClENCE said:
Residency for a PIC at CVS/WAGS? They don't fill these positions that easily to begin with and they're fairly high turnover considering the pay. I know you were just kidding but it's really not that bad to get a job. Maybe in 10 years.
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I still don't understand why someone would do a community pharmacy residency at all. It sounds like mostly being a regular retail pharmacist but for increased hours and less than half the pay. The residency activities don't sound very different from a typical retail pharmacists' workday -- see example: http://careers.walgreens.com/docs/residency-raleigh-2013.pdf Am I missing the point? I can't see this type of residency leading to a future job aside from standard staff RPh or PIC in a retail environment.
 
D.U.R. said:
I still don't understand why someone would do a community pharmacy residency at all. It sounds like mostly being a regular retail pharmacist but for increased hours and less than half the pay.
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Kind of like how being a hospital resident is like being a regular pharmacist with increased hours, half the pay, and some time reading articles/doing presentations. Overall kind of a scam that allows institutions to hire a pharmacist for a fraction of the rate.


NaOH said:
I formally apologize for being part of the problem.
...at least I plan to only take up 0.5 FTE
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Fellow UAMS graduate, huh? I had to run off to Florida to find the job I was looking for. The market in central Arkansas isn't exactly booming these days. What are you looking to do?
 
gwarm01 said:
Kind of like how being a hospital resident is like being a regular pharmacist with increased hours, half the pay, and some time reading articles/doing presentations. Overall kind of a scam that allows institutions to hire a pharmacist for a fraction of the rate.
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Point taken, but at least a hospital PGY-1 "opens doors" to clinical pharmacy jobs requiring residency or clinical experience. What job would a retail PGY-1 open doors to? As far as I know there are no retail positions that require or prefer residency training, while there are hospital roles that do.
 
D.U.R. said:
Point taken, but at least a hospital PGY-1 "opens doors" to clinical pharmacy jobs requiring residency or clinical experience. What job would a retail PGY-1 open doors to? As far as I know there are no retail positions that require or prefer residency training, while there are hospital roles that do.
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Academia is the first thing that comes to my mind. Aside from that, I've seen a few phone am care positions for which a community residency might prove useful. That's about it.
 
gwarm01 said:
Fellow UAMS graduate, huh? I had to run off to Florida to find the job I was looking for. The market in central Arkansas isn't exactly booming these days. What are you looking to do?
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I've spent 6 years with Wags, so I'm staying with them for now. Once loans are paid off I may scale back and be a part-time house husband.

I do feel fortunate that that's a possibility.
 
PharmtoCS said:
I based it off the BLS figures of 14% projected growth over 10 years, or 4,140 new jobs per year compared to roughly 14,000 new pharmacy graduates per year. It looks like the BLS does not include jobs in industry, which employs a very small percentage of PharmDs and typically requires 1-2 years of fellowship.
http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/pharmacists.htm#tab-1
Click to expand...

To be fair you are not accounting for retirements.
 
awval999 said:
To be fair you are not accounting for retirements.
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True, but who can afford to retire? Not the baby boomers who spent their lives living like there was no tomorrow. Although I suppose at some point, we all die....still with the average life span being ~78 - 80 years, that is far away. In my real life, I see extremely few pharmacists retiring at age 65.
 
awval999 said:
To be fair you are not accounting for retirements.
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The BLS predicts 68,000 pharmacists will leave the profession from 2012-2022. So if 6,800 leave and 4,140 new jobs appear each year that is a total of roughly 11,000 jobs a year for new grads. If we assume the graduation rate will be around 15,000 a year that is a little over 26% unemployment for new grads. Of course this says nothing about the quality or salary of these jobs. In short, the numbers are bad anyway you look at them after 6-10 years of training and hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt.
 
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Are you accounting for residencies? Because technically those are not pharmacist jobs. Looks like there was approx 3000 matched residency spots this year. So now we are getting close to full employment.

Look, I totally agree that the new schools suck, and the new grads are pretty much awful. And I have no doubt that it's hard to get a job in NYC, LA or SF. But, honestly, we had like 2 applicants for our ER pharmacist job at our hospital. Naturally we hired our prior PGY-1 resident, but it's not like it's ridiculous out here in the Midwest. All of our students that rotate through have their jobs lined up with WAGs, RAD, and CVS. And you know what, what is nice about our profession is that 2/3rds are graduating females who won't be working 1.0 FTE and may find themselves early retiring at 35 and living off of PRN hours and sugar daddy.
 
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The good news is that the exponential growth of pharmacy school is over. The number of applicants has been dropping and will continue to drop. Some schools will not be able to fill their class this year. Some may even struggle especially the new ones with outrageous tuition but I don't see them closing any time soon.
 
Maruko said:
they must be stupid to think that the number of applicants won't decrease soon
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http://sbstatesman.com/2014/10/21/sbu-school-of-pharmacy-on-the-horizon/
http://www.bupipedream.com/news/28283/pharm-school/

“There is a need in New York State for an additional school, as there are only seven schools of pharmacy in New York,” Kaushansky said.

I'm not too familiar with New York, but didn't a major supermarket chain close their pharmacies for good? This would have put 50+ pharmacists out on the open market to compete with the new graduates. I forget what the chain was called.
 
awval999 said:
Are you accounting for residencies? Because technically those are not pharmacist jobs. Looks like there was approx 3000 matched residency spots this year. So now we are getting close to full employment.
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What happens when those residents are done? They go looking for jobs and each graduating class has to compete with 3000 residents from the previous class.
 
D.U.R. said:
Point taken, but at least a hospital PGY-1 "opens doors" to clinical pharmacy jobs requiring residency or clinical experience. What job would a retail PGY-1 open doors to? As far as I know there are no retail positions that require or prefer residency training, while there are hospital roles that do.
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That's why a "community PGY1" seems like the ultimate scam to me. I'm not really sure what skills or knowledge you would gain that you couldn't just learn on the job. I went to school with a guy that did a community PGY1, and now he's just a Wal-Mart pharmacist. It's not like there was some amazing job waiting at the end of the residency.
 
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