You wanna be a DO...get ready for life as a DO

[USArmyDoc]

I am not sure what to think about many of the responses here.

Would you all really use the tactic of insulting those of lower socio-economic status as a means to feel good about your chosen career?

It's hard to tell who is joking and who is not...I hope you are joking. I would be more worried about how the elitist attitude of other physicians (MD and DO) reflects on me than I would be about my degree.

Why not try to be the bigger person in this kind of situation?

I am going to agree with Jake here. Guys, don't let other people's misconceptions turn you into a prick. Simple as that. JUST BE A GOOD DOCTOR. Well said Jake!

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[DeLaughterDO]

I am not sure what to think about many of the responses here.

Would you all really use the tactic of insulting those of lower socio-economic status as a means to feel good about your chosen career?

It's hard to tell who is joking and who is not...I hope you are joking. I would be more worried about how the elitist attitude of other physicians (MD and DO) reflects on me than I would be about my degree.

Why not try to be the bigger person in this kind of situation?

Well, my response had nothing to do with insulting other people and everything to do with how disappointed I am with the lack of public education about our profession. I find it hard to believe (and quite laughable) that, while osteopathy has been around for almost 20 years longer than chiropractic, more people in the general populace know what a DC is vs a DO... And DOs are actually physicians who can treat a many more medical and musculoskeletal illnesses than can DCs.

I'm not bashing DCs here - just bringing up a point that their professional and political engines have been much more effective than ours... no flames please.

 

[JakeHarley]

...how disappointed I am with the lack of public education about our profession. ...

Agree 100%. And as you indirectly stated, this isn't the general public's fault.

On a side note, I find your point about public awareness of DCs vs. DOs to be very interesting. What have DCs done to be so well recognized in this country?

My guess is that it is a combination of the following:

1) DCs offer a single, unique service as an alternative to allopathic care for back problems. Osteopathic physicians may also have something unique to offer, but constantly spend there energy explaining how similar they are to allopaths and downplaying their own unique training and skillset.

2) DCs are CONSTANTLY out in public marketing their profession--free screenings, discounts, newsletters, etc. In the city I live in there are a number of outdoor festivals and markets, and there is ALWAYS at least one local DC with there his/her own booth, handing out cards and looking at people's spines. Aside from a couple of websites and pamphlets the AOA puts together, I had never seen or heard about osteopathy until I started looking into applying to medical school!

Sad but true--the notion that putting DOs on TV shows would help is probably an accurate one!

 

[NRAI2001]

Congrats on ur acceptance! Don't let anybody, especially some **** rain on your parade. This "battle against the stigma" you speak of all depends on how u take it.....who the hell cares about what one of your mom's friends thinks...if you know you want to be a doctor and that it is the profession for you, then that's all there is to know. Case closed. DO, MD, DM, MO....these letters make no difference if your intentions for the profession are loyal and true.

What is a DM and an MO?

 

[scrubsRcomfy]

Sad but true--the notion that putting DOs on TV shows would help is probably an accurate one!

where are those scrubs/grey's anatomy screenplay writers when you need them?

every single MD i've spoken to has told me that they regard their DO colleagues as equal, but they do acknowledge the stigma (which may prevent you from getting really presitigious appointments, if that's your thang).

I've noticed that you have to be VERY comfortable with the idea of promoting an relatively unknown degree. one of the DO's at the hospital i work is always on the defensive about his degree, although he's one of the most prolific researchers at our institution- maybe he's just an edgy guy by nature, who knows.

 

[USArmyDoc]

Honestly, I worked in a hospital and know a lot of doctors. They never say anything bad about DO's. In fact, it is always positive things. Maybe bc I am in NY? I dunno, but I can you for sure that I don't see half of the stigma you guys do.

 

[KateGia]

Just a suggestion.... instead of putting people down when they question the DO degree, give them homework. Tell them, next time they go to their doctor's office, to look at the wall and read all of the doctor's names, and what letters they have after them. I'm sure they'll be surprised at doctor's they've met and liked that are DOs and they never realized it. This worked for me. It also worked in the hospital where I work. Some of the nurses asked me why i didn't want to be a real doctor, and refered to it as "do-do" as a joke. I then listed some names of physicians that frequented our unit, and asked if they thought they were good doctors. When they said yes, I told them that they were all DOs. They don't question it anymore, and they're all really excited for me.

 

[NRAI2001]

Honestly, I worked in a hospital and know a lot of doctors. They never say anything bad about DO's. In fact, it is always positive things. Maybe bc I am in NY? I dunno, but I can you for sure that I don't see half of the stigma you guys do.

Maybe they were trying to be PC. Just bc they didnt say it, doesnt mean it doesnt exists. Doesnt mean it does either.

 

[Krazykritter]

As much as I hate these stupid, reoccuring discussions about being a D.O. they should really teach those of you who will be entering osteopathic medicine:

THE AOA IS PART OF THE BIGGEST PROBLEM. As has previously been stated, they do not put out enough material to educate the patient population. HOWEVER, as a medical student you WILL have the opportunity to voice your opinion to your governing body. AOA reps do visit the schools and hold student forums (at DMU we have one on March 9). GET INVOLVED. You do not have to be in student government. Show up, voice your opinion or make contacts w/ the representatives that come.

Honestly, I would wager that at least 65% of your future patients will not even know what the initials at the end of your name are. You are a doctor, you write them a perscription, you make them feel better and that is pretty much all most of them care about.

 

[USArmyDoc]

Maybe they were trying to be PC. Just bc they didnt say it, doesnt mean it doesnt exists. Doesnt mean it does either.

Ehh.....I don't know. There probably is some bias but they are always complementing DO's. For example, they always ask if I applied to NYCOM and how great it is. The nurses also love the DO's.

 

[Jamers]

Ehh.....I don't know. There probably is some bias but they are always complementing DO's. For example, they always ask if I applied to NYCOM and how great it is. The nurses also love the DO's.

I agree, I really don't see it past this forum. The MD I shadowed worked with four D.O.'s and he loved them ( I might also mention he is in his 80's so if he had any bias, I am sure it would show). I think the biggest bias exists on this forum, maybe premeds need the biggest education as to what a D.O. really is?

 

[Timbo0984]

Ehh.....I don't know. There probably is some bias but they are always complementing DO's. For example, they always ask if I applied to NYCOM and how great it is. The nurses also love the DO's.

What hospital did you work at in NY?

 

[backman_y2k]

I'm excited about becoming a DO and I've been on the other side of the fence as a practicing DC. If you think there is a bad stigma between DO and MD think about being a chiropractor. Chiropractors see less than 8-12% of the population. However, one of the things that we have to do is be less passive and more active about educating the public. As a chiro there are several different political groups in my profession that are fighting against each other leading to confusion. I understand what it's like for people to be confused and uneducated about what we do. One of the things that made me upset very early in practice was people saying that they don't believe in chiropractors. I would always answer that I'm not Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny and you don't have to believe in chiropractic. Anyway, I'm excited and ready to be a DO. When patients come in to the office to see the physician they care about only feeling better. They don't care if you are a DO or MD and in my current case, DC.

 

[USArmyDoc]

What hospital did you work at in NY?

I Pmed you....lol


I also know a crapload of MD's and EVERY single one asked me if I applied to NYCOM, etc when they heard I was in the middle of the cycle. Plus I saw a LECOM and PCOM grad the other day both who specialized. One was in nuerology and I don't know the other one. I also know a DO neurosurgeon who practices with a large group of MD's. So, like Jamers said I really don't see a bias EXCEPT premeds. Does it mean it doesn't exist? No, I am sure it does but as long as you arn't an obnoxious prick MD than its all good.

 

[USArmyDoc]

As another point, I was at Nassau County Medical Center doing a report for school and the head of psychiatry (MD) heard I was applying to medical school. He to asked me if applied to NYCOM and told me that if I got into Stonybrook and NYCOM to go to NYCOM. He said his overall impression was that NYCOM grads come out better trained. The SAME day I was working with the president of the NY Medical Society (Dr. Scher, if anyone cares) and he to told me to go to NYCOM. You guys can take fom that what you want. I am just sharing a couple of my experiences.

 

[docbill]

even though this thread I started on the Osteo forum... fell on deaf ears.. and was quickly critisized... I will post the link.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=259758

 

[Raven Feather]

I Pmed you....lol


I also know a crapload of MD's and EVERY single one asked me if I applied to NYCOM, etc when they heard I was in the middle of the cycle. Plus I saw a LECOM and PCOM grad the other day both who specialized. One was in nuerology and I don't know the other one. I also know a DO neurosurgeon who practices with a large group of MD's. So, like Jamers said I really don't see a bias EXCEPT premeds. Does it mean it doesn't exist? No, I am sure it does but as long as you arn't an obnoxious prick MD than its all good.

Gosh, isn't that the truth--and for me, it has only been the immature premeds on SDN. Ha, Im gonna laugh when those premeds are part of a large group and would give their last tooth if their fellow D.O. would cover for them on a holiday weekend or family emergency---they'd be "full-fledged" physicians to them then!!!!!

I have worked at a Hospital for 6 yrs and I hear a lot of things that I probably shouldn't from the docs referring to other docs---and it has never been this DO vs MD thing. It has mostly been X or Y should be doing the discharge summary or X or Y should have done this, etc.

 

[JakeHarley]

10- Don't put my email on penis inlarging website. Even though I may need it, DON'T.[/url]

Oh, don't worry, we got the point.

 

[theunc31]

Just an idea-

Go to any of the residency forums and see how fellow residents and physicians who have finished up treat each other. You can go to almost any post about DOs and read through them. The common theme: besides pre-meds and maybe some med students, physicians don't give a .... From what I've encountered Good DO physician=Good MD physician=Good physician and vice versa. Moral of the story: be good at what you do, enjoy yourself and don't worry about although the static around you.

 

[thirdunity]

Hey folks. I'm considering the DO path as an option, if it means I can stay in California.

About one of the only worries I have about DO is having to explain to people that yes, I am going to be a "real doctor". My father for example still thinks - regardless of how much I explain - that osteopath is the same as a chiropractor.

I also want to write books eventually, and worry a little that "A. Wilson, DO" won't get read as quickly as "A. Wilson, MD". This is a really petty reason, and you know, for all we know I *could* be the person who breaks down the "Wow! A DO is a real doctor!" door, if I DO write books.

 

[medhacker]

Hey folks. I'm considering the DO path as an option, if it means I can stay in California.

About one of the only worries I have about DO is having to explain to people that yes, I am going to be a "real doctor". My father for example still thinks - regardless of how much I explain - that osteopath is the same as a chiropractor.

I also want to write books eventually, and worry a little that "A. Wilson, DO" won't get read as quickly as "A. Wilson, MD". This is a really petty reason, and you know, for all we know I *could* be the person who breaks down the "Wow! A DO is a real doctor!" door, if I DO write books.

Hi thirdudity,

The topic has been discussed extensively. If you do a search you are sure to find a good number of tips on how to handle those insecurities. Best Wishes!

 

[group_theory]

Hey folks. I'm considering the DO path as an option, if it means I can stay in California.

About one of the only worries I have about DO is having to explain to people that yes, I am going to be a "real doctor". My father for example still thinks - regardless of how much I explain - that osteopath is the same as a chiropractor.

I also want to write books eventually, and worry a little that "A. Wilson, DO" won't get read as quickly as "A. Wilson, MD". This is a really petty reason, and you know, for all we know I *could* be the person who breaks down the "Wow! A DO is a real doctor!" door, if I DO write books.

It's quite reasonable and logical to have this point of view since you are still a premed.

Once you gain some clinical exposure with physicians (on rotations), you will notice a shift in thinking - unless a DO is actively doing OMM on his/her patients, most physicians don't care if another physician is a DO or MD. It's more "he's a GI doc" or "she's a heme-onc".

And whether a physician refer/consult another doc isn't based on DO/MD, but more "does this physician take this patient's insurance" and "is this physician reliable and practice standard of care?. Does this consulting physician inform the referring physician of his/her recommendations, treatment plans, followups, etc." Also important is "did my previous patients have any problem/complaints with this physician".

When you, as a doc (DO or MD), in an outpatient setting (primary care) and seeing a patient every 15 minutes and running 1-2 hr behind and hoping the next patient will be a no show so that you can catch up ... you will definately feel like a real doctor (and don't care if some patients avoid you solely due to your degree ... it'll be a good break)

When you, on a hospital service, have a patient census of 25-50, and it takes you all day to round on the patients (let alone do H&Ps, admissions, etc) - you will not care whether you are a DO or MD ... you will just want to finish the day

When you, as a specialty doc, in an office setting, have a 3-4 month waiting period for appointments ... you will definately feel like a doctor.


When a patient comes in and complains of chronic pain and have tried numerous physicians and drugs to no relief, and seeks you out because you have a reputation among patients for being good at OMT ... then you will definately feel proud to be a DO.

Also something to keep in mind ... a premed's definition of a good doc, a doc's definition of a good doc, and your average joe's definition of a good doc ... will all differ. Just be the best doc that you can be.

And if someone insist that you're not a real doc because you're a DO ... insist that they follow you for 1 week ... (including calls) and see if they still believe you're not a real doc afterwards. If they still insist, then just say "It offends me to the soul to hear a robustious periwig pated fellow tear a passion to tatters, to very rags."

 

[group_theory]

deleted ... duplicate post (servers hiccup)

 

[HunterGatherer]

I don't bother getting into long discussions about whether a DO can do the same thing as DOs. In 4 years when you start your residency it should sink in for everyone.

My father for example still thinks - regardless of how much I explain - that osteopath is the same as a chiropractor.

 

[newbie04]

grouptheory: best post I have seen in Pre-Osteopathic Forum hands down.

It's quite reasonable and logical to have this point of view since you are still a premed.

Once you gain some clinical exposure with physicians (on rotations), you will notice a shift in thinking - unless a DO is actively doing OMM on his/her patients, most physicians don't care if another physician is a DO or MD. It's more "he's a GI doc" or "she's a heme-onc".

And whether a physician refer/consult another doc isn't based on DO/MD, but more "does this physician take this patient's insurance" and "is this physician reliable and practice standard of care?. Does this consulting physician inform the referring physician of his/her recommendations, treatment plans, followups, etc." Also important is "did my previous patients have any problem/complaints with this physician".

When you, as a doc (DO or MD), in an outpatient setting (primary care) and seeing a patient every 15 minutes and running 1-2 hr behind and hoping the next patient will be a no show so that you can catch up ... you will definately feel like a real doctor (and don't care if some patients avoid you solely due to your degree ... it'll be a good break)

When you, on a hospital service, have a patient census of 25-50, and it takes you all day to round on the patients (let alone do H&Ps, admissions, etc) - you will not care whether you are a DO or MD ... you will just want to finish the day

When you, as a specialty doc, in an office setting, have a 3-4 month waiting period for appointments ... you will definately feel like a doctor.


When a patient comes in and complains of chronic pain and have tried numerous physicians and drugs to no relief, and seeks you out because you have a reputation among patients for being good at OMT ... then you will definately feel proud to be a DO.

Also something to keep in mind ... a premed's definition of a good doc, a doc's definition of a good doc, and your average joe's definition of a good doc ... will all differ. Just be the best doc that you can be.

And if someone insist that you're not a real doc because you're a DO ... insist that they follow you for 1 week ... (including calls) and see if they still believe you're not a real doc afterwards. If they still insist, then just say "It offends me to the soul to hear a robustious periwig pated fellow tear a passion to tatters, to very rags."

 

[Timbo0984]

Grouptheory,
Brilliant! This is absolutely brilliant and must be put at a permanent thread to be read by all! Amazing job!

It's quite reasonable and logical to have this point of view since you are still a premed.

Once you gain some clinical exposure with physicians (on rotations), you will notice a shift in thinking - unless a DO is actively doing OMM on his/her patients, most physicians don't care if another physician is a DO or MD. It's more "he's a GI doc" or "she's a heme-onc".

And whether a physician refer/consult another doc isn't based on DO/MD, but more "does this physician take this patient's insurance" and "is this physician reliable and practice standard of care?. Does this consulting physician inform the referring physician of his/her recommendations, treatment plans, followups, etc." Also important is "did my previous patients have any problem/complaints with this physician".

When you, as a doc (DO or MD), in an outpatient setting (primary care) and seeing a patient every 15 minutes and running 1-2 hr behind and hoping the next patient will be a no show so that you can catch up ... you will definately feel like a real doctor (and don't care if some patients avoid you solely due to your degree ... it'll be a good break)

When you, on a hospital service, have a patient census of 25-50, and it takes you all day to round on the patients (let alone do H&Ps, admissions, etc) - you will not care whether you are a DO or MD ... you will just want to finish the day

When you, as a specialty doc, in an office setting, have a 3-4 month waiting period for appointments ... you will definately feel like a doctor.


When a patient comes in and complains of chronic pain and have tried numerous physicians and drugs to no relief, and seeks you out because you have a reputation among patients for being good at OMT ... then you will definately feel proud to be a DO.

Also something to keep in mind ... a premed's definition of a good doc, a doc's definition of a good doc, and your average joe's definition of a good doc ... will all differ. Just be the best doc that you can be.

And if someone insist that you're not a real doc because you're a DO ... insist that they follow you for 1 week ... (including calls) and see if they still believe you're not a real doc afterwards. If they still insist, then just say "It offends me to the soul to hear a robustious periwig pated fellow tear a passion to tatters, to very rags."

 

[Pdiddy310]

congrats on your acceptance into osteopathic medical school!

in my experience, people in general have been classically conditioned to believe that only medical doctors are true doctors. that is just plain ignorant! Personally, I like the osteopathic philosophy better than the allopathic philosophy.

 

[OnMyWayThere]

congrats on your acceptance into osteopathic medical school!

in my experience, people in general have been classically conditioned to believe that only medical doctors are true doctors. that is just plain ignorant! Personally, I like the osteopathic philosophy better than the allopathic philosophy.

Just FYI: DO and MD are both medical doctors. The letters MD are for Doctor of Medicine.

 

[docbill]

And if someone insist that you're not a real doc because you're a DO ... insist that they follow you for 1 week ... (including calls) and see if they still believe you're not a real doc afterwards. If they still insist, then just say "It offends me to the soul to hear a robustious periwig pated fellow tear a passion to tatters, to very rags."

G_T

I really liked you post. But the best part is this one. If someone doesn't think you are a doc... just ask them to shadow you for 1 hour... or less. You don't need the whole week.

 

[Bill_Brasky]

So, my Mom today, equally as excited as I am, shares with her friend that her son got into medical school. Her friend asks, "Medical school or osteopathic medical school?" So my mom is like, actually, osteopathic, and her friend is like, "oooohhh, I thought he got into a real med school, but congrats."


Sounds like your Mom's friend has some interesting experiences that need to be respected. Maybe she would also like to buy some robot insurance to go along with her informed opinions on medical care (http://www.robotmarketplace.com/video_oldglory_hi.html).

By the way docbill, I liked your post and thought it made a good point, my post was just trying to have some fun and note that sometimes the immaturity is what makes these boards fun (see the emergency medicine haikus for instance...).

-Bill Brasky
"Third: You know how Brasky served three tours in 'Nam?

Fourth: Uh-huh!

Third: Well, I'm in Corpus Christi on business a month ago, and I had this eight-foot tall Asian waiter.. which made me a little curious, so I asked him his name, and sure enough it's Ho Tran Brasky!

First: To William Robert Brasky!!!"

 

[gosurf]

People tend to equate that DO=MD when you tell them your salary is the same.

i've been reading a couple threads about md vs. do and whether or not there is discrimination against do's in the medical field. from what i've read, it seems that discrimination against do's comes mainly from the general public who aren't aware of the osteopathic field and what it has to offer. it seems that among health professionals, there is not such a perceived preference for md's over do's. i've also heard that there are some exceptions in very competitive allopathic residency programs where md's seem to be favored. one question i still had was comparing salaries for md's and do's if there is a difference in pay for the same position filled by an md or a do. bkpa2med answered this question by saying the salaries are the same. i was wondering if anyone else had anything to say about md salaries vs do salaries. thanks.

 

[theraball]

i've been reading a couple threads about md vs. do and whether or not there is discrimination against do's in the medical field. from what i've read, it seems that discrimination against do's comes mainly from the general public who aren't aware of the osteopathic field and what it has to offer. it seems that among health professionals, there is not such a perceived preference for md's over do's. i've also heard that there are some exceptions in very competitive allopathic residency programs where md's seem to be favored. one question i still had was comparing salaries for md's and do's if there is a difference in pay for the same position filled by an md or a do. bkpa2med answered this question by saying the salaries are the same. i was wondering if anyone else had anything to say about md salaries vs do salaries. thanks.

Hm; you're more likely to get an informative response if you go ask a DO or MD, especially one who is on a hiring committee for their clinic or hospital; or else maybe you can go ask in the med student forums where they are a little closer to the real world.

It's possible that average DO salaries are lower because DOs have always been disproportionately represented in rural family practice, which pays less than urban hospitals and clinics. This doesn't mean that the D.O. degree is the cause of lower salary offers, though.

I would second what others have said; people in the medical community respect DO's and the general public doesn't know what DO is. My father ran a radiology department at a large state university hospital in the Midwest, and he stated that his DO residents were every bit as good as the MD residents; fine doctors all of them. And he is old school, educated back in the 1940s. So there you have a sample of one.

 

[rahulazcom]

The way I look at it is this: everyone has pre-conceived notions about something until they learn otherwise. Look deep into yourself and you will realize you are the same way. You can't fault people for being human. Yes, it would be nice if they ignored their gut instinct and kept an open mind but most people are not like this. Let's be honest, osteopaths are in the minority and thus people will view them with skepticism initially. That's a very normal human response. If someone makes ignorant comments like that, try to empathize with that person because it's likely you were in a very similar position prior to understanding what a DO was too.

So, it's up to you to educate them so they change their pre-conceived notion. And the only way to do that is by being composed and classy about it. Don't get angry. Smile and be the bigger man. Explain what a DO is and treat them to the best of your ability. I guarantee you that the patient will have an entirely different impression of DO's if you act in this manner. But if you become defensive and angry, the person will similarly act in a defensive way to protect their pride and not appear ignorant.

 

[Taus]

The way I look at it is this: everyone has pre-conceived notions about something until they learn otherwise. Look deep into yourself and you will realize you are the same way. You can't fault people for being human. Yes, it would be nice if they ignored their gut instinct and kept an open mind but most people are not like this. Let's be honest, osteopaths are in the minority and thus people will view them with skepticism initially. That's a very normal human response. If someone makes ignorant comments like that, try to empathize with that person because it's likely you were in a very similar position prior to understanding what a DO was too.

So, it's up to you to educate them so they change their pre-conceived notion. And the only way to do that is by being composed and classy about it. Don't get angry. Smile and be the bigger man. Explain what a DO is and treat them to the best of your ability. I guarantee you that the patient will have an entirely different impression of DO's if you act in this manner. But if you become defensive and angry, the person will similarly act in a defensive way to protect their pride and not appear ignorant.

excellent post...dead on...

 

[StudentDO2010]

I was just accepted to an Osteopathic school and couldn't be more excited about it. My dad has been a doc (MD) for 30 years, and he all he has done is praise the DO degree and the DOs he has worked with. I talked to many physicians before deciding which degree to pursue, and both MD and DO physicians said the same thing. At the end of 4 years, you are a doctor. What school you attend does not matter as much as what you do when you are there. If someone does not get it, then you can try to explain it to them. If they still dont understand, then turn around and walk back in the hospital and treat your next patient, because you are a doctor.

 

[docbill]

Is this thread still going on... ??? oh yeahhh good times.