Your thoughts?

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There's nothing wrong with operating a profitable business. What I don't like is the "What's in it for me?" philosophy that we fall back on after we graduate from medical or dental school. I understand that we naturally feel deserving of reward after giving up much of our twenties and hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans. But it is our responsibility as the only members of society capable of healing others to serve everyone in society. Not just those who can afford our services but also the destitutes. We shouldn't treat health as a commodity that's affected by supply-and-demand and made available to only those with the means to afford. Everyone needs it. You can want commodities but you need necessities.

Public necessities like fire department services, public water, clean environment, and especially health are needed by everybody and everyone deserves them, even those who would normally not be able to afford them if these services were privatized. By keeping these services public, maximizing profits is second to ensuring good public health, putting fires out, and maintaining a safe, clean environment.

I think in medical and dental school, we often feel like we're in a rat race, vying for top rank, but in a functional society, I like to think that we're all looking out for each other, even if that means we sacrifice a little on our part without expecting much, if anything, in return.

tl;dr = Being too capitalistic isn't good for anyone

I hate to break it to you, but wait until you find out when you don't pay for things like your fire tax bills, water bills, etc. There have been cases where fire departments refuse to respond to these people, their water cut off, etc. But these are isolated incidents.

The bigger problem I have with your response is the comment: "But it is our responsibility as the only members of society capable of healing others to serve everyone in society." This is true of almost EVERY profession. Farmers are the only ones capable of feeding us, but we you barely hear the criticism of them burning crops to keep their profits high. Construction workers are the only ones capable of building a home for us to live in, but no one bats an eye when they won't work to only break even. The list goes on and on....

When you get out and start practicing you will quickly see that it isn't that most people can't afford to pay for medical/dental care (although, yes, sometimes that is the case), but in fact, most simply choose they would rather buy something else. Can't afford that root canal, but have a smart phone? NOT MY PROBLEM!

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When you get out and start practicing you will quickly see that it isn't that most people can't afford to pay for medical/dental care (although, yes, sometimes that is the case), but in fact, most simply choose they would rather buy something else. Can't afford that root canal, but have a smart phone? NOT MY PROBLEM!

Ha! Katzen7, you've hit upon an essential principle of human economic psychology:

Human beings buy what they want, not necessarily what they need.

Hint: corollaries:

1- We have a responsibility to develop excellent communication skills in order to lead patients to want what they need, where "need" means diagnoses and treatments that our profession commonly agrees are essential to oral and systemic health. (If we respectfully ask and someone wants elective esthetic treatment, then by definition they already want it. That's easy to communicate about.)
The reason I use the word "responsibility" is that from the standpoint of the physical well-being of our patients, unscheduled treatment is precisely the same as undiagnosed treatment. In other words, if we miss a diagnosis like periodontitis, an endo infection or even oral cancer, that's awfully bad. If we diagnose it properly and the patient does not schedule treatment, we can argue that we did our bit and we're off the hook, but the exact same consequences will result as if we missed the diagnosis.
When we stir into this particular gumbo the fact that our own practices prosper when patients accept treatment, we discover that excellence and responsibility in human communication are a win-win and we probably should study and practice it until we really rock.

2- Big cases are easier to sell (sorry to use that word) than little ones. In other words, when someone is in a lot of physical and/or esthetic pain, they're already emotionally there. They already want treatment. You just need to work with them and "find the money," as Dr. Dick Barnes says in his superb courses. It's the person who has an asymptomatic endo or who breaks a molar's cusp and says "It ain't sharp, doc, and anyway if it breaks more it's in the back; I'll just have ya pull it" who requires our A game in communication.
I have a much easier time saying to a patient "And the total for this treatment is twenty-four thousand dollars after we apply your benefits" than saying "And that crown is eleven hundred."
Alas, it's not often that we get to say that first one. But when we do, it's damn easy.
 
I hate to break it to you, but wait until you find out when you don't pay for things like your fire tax bills, water bills, etc. There have been cases where fire departments refuse to respond to these people, their water cut off, etc. But these are isolated incidents.

The bigger problem I have with your response is the comment: "But it is our responsibility as the only members of society capable of healing others to serve everyone in society." This is true of almost EVERY profession. Farmers are the only ones capable of feeding us, but we you barely hear the criticism of them burning crops to keep their profits high. Construction workers are the only ones capable of building a home for us to live in, but no one bats an eye when they won't work to only break even. The list goes on and on....

When you get out and start practicing you will quickly see that it isn't that most people can't afford to pay for medical/dental care (although, yes, sometimes that is the case), but in fact, most simply choose they would rather buy something else. Can't afford that root canal, but have a smart phone? NOT MY PROBLEM!
I know. It's a very big problem.

Through my observations since childhood, some of these individuals who "Can't afford that root canal, but have a smart phone," you pointed out, do, in fact, end up attending ds and other places having to only hop over a lowered hurdle. It makes no logical sense when I see some patients who refuse to get a root canal because what ever program(s) being used at that moment could not 'afforded' them to do so, yet who routinely show up to their appointment in a sparkling-new BMW, then come back via their sparkling-new BMW and complain how standard of care wasn't being used and threaten to sue.

This is a genuine concern.

This is an excerpt from the 'manual' issued by the American Dental Association:
Ethical Conduct in Applying to Dental Education Programs

"The dental profession holds a special position of trust within society. As a consequence, society affords the profession certain privileges that are not available to members of the public-at-large. In return, the profession makes a commitment to society that its members will adhere to high ethical standards of conduct."
Then again, how many people actually reads the 'manual' prior to making a lifelong decision?:shrug::shrug::shrug:

I still have faith in this:
Nah, a good work ethic and mental endurance in studying for months will get you through the MCAT. What happened is that OP's friend had been playing with loaded dice for years, lining up easy professors and class schedules so he could get good grades, but not developing a shred of a work ethic. You can manipulate and finagle your way through college, but the buck stops at the MCAT.
But it is our responsibility as the only members of society capable of healing serving others to serve everyone in society.
Fixed it for you.

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I hate to break it to you, but wait until you find out when you don't pay for things like your fire tax bills, water bills, etc. There have been cases where fire departments refuse to respond to these people, their water cut off, etc. But these are isolated incidents.

The bigger problem I have with your response is the comment: "But it is our responsibility as the only members of society capable of healing others to serve everyone in society." This is true of almost EVERY profession. Farmers are the only ones capable of feeding us, but we you barely hear the criticism of them burning crops to keep their profits high. Construction workers are the only ones capable of building a home for us to live in, but no one bats an eye when they won't work to only break even. The list goes on and on....

When you get out and start practicing you will quickly see that it isn't that most people can't afford to pay for medical/dental care (although, yes, sometimes that is the case), but in fact, most simply choose they would rather buy something else. Can't afford that root canal, but have a smart phone? NOT MY PROBLEM!

Agreed

I think most strife comes from people trying to control each other. Imagine living in a world where you were not able to say "not my problem". I've read proposals in liberal states (mass) where they've kicked around the idea of tying med-lic to accepting medicare/caid.
 
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Ha! Katzen7, you've hit upon an essential principle of human economic psychology:

Human beings buy what they want, not necessarily what they need.

Hint: corollaries:

1- We have a responsibility to develop excellent communication skills in order to lead patients to want what they need, where "need" means diagnoses and treatments that our profession commonly agrees are essential to oral and systemic health. (If we respectfully ask and someone wants elective esthetic treatment, then by definition they already want it. That's easy to communicate about.)
The reason I use the word "responsibility" is that from the standpoint of the physical well-being of our patients, unscheduled treatment is precisely the same as undiagnosed treatment. In other words, if we miss a diagnosis like periodontitis, an endo infection or even oral cancer, that's awfully bad. If we diagnose it properly and the patient does not schedule treatment, we can argue that we did our bit and we're off the hook, but the exact same consequences will result as if we missed the diagnosis.
When we stir into this particular gumbo the fact that our own practices prosper when patients accept treatment, we discover that excellence and responsibility in human communication are a win-win and we probably should study and practice it until we really rock.

2- Big cases are easier to sell (sorry to use that word) than little ones. In other words, when someone is in a lot of physical and/or esthetic pain, they're already emotionally there. They already want treatment. You just need to work with them and "find the money," as Dr. Dick Barnes says in his superb courses. It's the person who has an asymptomatic endo or who breaks a molar's cusp and says "It ain't sharp, doc, and anyway if it breaks more it's in the back; I'll just have ya pull it" who requires our A game in communication.
I have a much easier time saying to a patient "And the total for this treatment is twenty-four thousand dollars after we apply your benefits" than saying "And that crown is eleven hundred."
Alas, it's not often that we get to say that first one. But when we do, it's damn easy.

Then maybe you should give your own seminars on how to "sell" these large cases. I have been to Dicks seminars before and I know his philosophy. The truth of the matter is, no matter how good we are at communications, a $24,000 case is still a $24,000 case, a humongous amount for the average Joe or Jane making 40k a year. Many patients would nominally agree to the tx plan, but never have the will or financial ability to carry through, particularly with implant cases that require a lot of time planning. Most would just flake out at some point in time.

The idea of doing comprehensive dentistry is a good one because it maximizes production while minimizes the stress of seeing too many patients. However, it ignores the harsh financial realities of these huge 30k tx plans on the average folk, unless you start treading into the dangerous territory of setting up tremendously complex and lengthy payment plans. The previous office I worked for has a particular penchancy for doing this; for a couple of 4-unit bridges totalling 8k, for example, they would allow monthly payments of $200 lasting more an 3 years. I can't speak for you, but I don't like stretching my fees out so long, and not to mention the tendency of many patients to flake on payments after making 3-4.

I am with Katzen on this one, the idea of "serving" the community is an idealized notion. In the real world, there are plenty of practical concerns to be factored in for the final analysis. I like to do my best work to help patients in need, but I need to get paid for my services as well. I don't run a charity and I make my bacon selling my services and a valuable skill. Once in a while I will volunteer my time at a community service event, but to spew out BS about serving the community as if financials is not even a consideration is naive to say the least.
 
Big cases like that are very, very rare in my practice. And often, people say "no." I just don't find them stressful to present.

Main point was about the supreme importance of communication skills, not the numbers.
 
Then maybe you should give your own seminars on how to "sell" these large cases. I have been to Dicks seminars before and I know his philosophy. The truth of the matter is, no matter how good we are at communications, a $24,000 case is still a $24,000 case, a humongous amount for the average Joe or Jane making 40k a year. Many patients would nominally agree to the tx plan, but never have the will or financial ability to carry through, particularly with implant cases that require a lot of time planning. Most would just flake out at some point in time.

The idea of doing comprehensive dentistry is a good one because it maximizes production while minimizes the stress of seeing too many patients. However, it ignores the harsh financial realities of these huge 30k tx plans on the average folk, unless you start treading into the dangerous territory of setting up tremendously complex and lengthy payment plans. The previous office I worked for has a particular penchancy for doing this; for a couple of 4-unit bridges totalling 8k, for example, they would allow monthly payments of $200 lasting more an 3 years. I can't speak for you, but I don't like stretching my fees out so long, and not to mention the tendency of many patients to flake on payments after making 3-4.

I am with Katzen on this one, the idea of "serving" the community is an idealized notion. In the real world, there are plenty of practical concerns to be factored in for the final analysis. I like to do my best work to help patients in need, but I need to get paid for my services as well. I don't run a charity and I make my bacon selling my services and a valuable skill. Once in a while I will volunteer my time at a community service event, but to spew out BS about serving the community as if financials is not even a consideration is naive to say the least.
I'm not telling you how to perform your job, but perhaps introducing these patients to full/partial dentures or other rationally-relevant procedures/tx's would be better. Of course implant tx as we currently know it is a luxury and not necessarily a necessity, yet; therefore, of course these patients cannot afford such full/partial implant tx even if they wanted to. Sure the efficiency of mastication is severely lowered when wearing dentures. Sorry herbivores out there, but who doesn't enjoy masticating on a strip of filet mignon? It's definitely all about profit from much of what I've witness so far. You don't want to do dentures? You refer them to another colleague for implants, then you bankroll on the crown installation while witnessing your patients' frustration. In not recommending/referring patients to rationally-relevant procedures can stem from a number of irrational/rationally-irrational reasons, but most likely traces back to a lack thereof. And of course you have your aka. impossible patients. I understand.

Overall to me, in providing rationally-relevant procedure(s)/tx(s) to such patients under the premise of necessity is the best thing one can do for society. These unfortunate patients will certainly serve as an/a example/poster-child/role-model to society of what happens when one does not maintain proper oral health. And of course it may not be the patients' fault from the get-go, I feel very sad for them inside, but using implants as an example is kind of pushing it to the extremity, right?
What do you think?
 
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It's time we talked about pie.

What I've noticed pervading this and many other threads is scarcity-thinking. Assumptions about the zero-sum game. A sense that we must choose between being a staunch capitalist or a dentist who does much for their community which also means taking a vow of poverty. That we have to choose between running a profitable dental practice or caring about social issues, as was the original poster's concern. We see on many threads this pervasive notion of "I gotta grab a slice of the pie before someone else eats it all!"

But what if the pie could get bigger? And, more to the point, what if you were the one who made that happen?

Here's why I want to ask this here: I know from my pre-dental shadows, dental students, residents and newly graduated dentists that you young people (not that I'm that old yet!) are amazing and have off-the-charts potential. And yet there's too much in the way here of giving in and giving up in the face of external forces like government action, the economy, the vagaries of self-involved patients... You are all so amazing that you should be proudly shouting "I picked myself!" rather than murmuring "Pick me, Pick me."

In the capitalism of the industrialist, major corporations and commodities, More is the goal. One example will suffice: Coca Cola, Pepsi and Gatorade care about selling the maximum amount of their products, and that means more all the time. They don't give a fig about caries, obesity, Type II diabetes or any other societal effects of what they sell. The next quarterly report is all that counts. Yet even they have discovered the PR benefits of social networks and social action. So what do you think they do about that? They fake it. They slap a veneer of false social conscience on what they do, just so they can look good. That may be part of where we get this idea of the either/or decisions about profit versus community action in our dental practice.

But now let's take the individually crafted, personal, bespoke business that is a dental practice and set it down in this brave new world of the connection economy. (Maybe the world of the bespoke business was always based on connection, but we can agree that it's highly augmented now.) Should we be thinking like an industrialist? Many business thinkers say no.

Connection and Attention are, in many respects, as valuable as cold hard cash. Not in all respects, but don't ever underestimate them. And so what many authors have suggested, and many small business owners have found to be true, is this: If you connect people, your own success increases dramatically. My friend Anne McCrossan said, "When organizations cannot be trusted, we're inclined to give them less attention." The converse is also true: trusted organizations gain attention. And business.

So what I'm suggesting about the pie is that you remarkable young people entering our profession need to cast off your limiting beliefs and pick yourselves; you need to leave behind the factory owner's mindset and instead focus on making a difference, for that is how a modern bespoke business grows. You need to look at the pie that is the neighborhood your practice is in and say, "I'm going to connect people and effect change and make this pie grow bigger."

We need specific examples. Some of these have direct, tangible effects on dental practice. Others have no direct tangible effects on an individual practice, but before you scorn them, consider their importance in raising the stature of dentistry as a profession generally. We've come a long way since the Civil War when dentists paid boys to roam the battlefields, removing teeth from soldiers' corpses to use in dentures for wealthy patients. But there are still selfish practitioners out there who bring us down in the public's eyes, and there remains much work to be done.

*****

My first example is that if we are pissed off about insurance companies and government Medicaid programs, a valid response is to say "I pick myself" and create our own insurance. We did this a few years ago and it's been spectacular. Basically the idea is to have plans for individuals, couples and a family plan. You tally up the cost of 2 exams and prophys and a number of X-rays and you heavily discount it, and that's the yearly premium. To be paid in advance. Your patients who have no insurance can maintain their health at a more affordable cost than if they paid piecemeal, and you get money way in advance with no staff costs to collect it later. Then when it comes to treatment, the plan discounts that as well. We chose 20%. And again, patients must pay up front, although I suppose one could make other arrangements, but they can lead to collection trouble. Anyway at first I was freaked out by the idea of losing 20%, since we already write off a percentage in the five PPOs we participate in. But here's the thing: patients come in. They maintain, and they do treatments. I found I'd rather write off 20% from the patient I had a chance to talk to than 100% of the patient I didn't get to see at all. And of course one point of this program is to attract new patients on the basis of something of real, sustainable value, and so--my pie has grown bigger.

Another strategy that I have not tried is a day of free dentistry. OMG there's that word that the industrialist thinkers so despise: "Free." But the free can lead to the paid. So, when the economy tanked in 2008, many dentists, especially in rural areas, decided to do a day of free basic dental treatment for those who could not afford it. I suspect that this works better in rural areas where the local economy is more self-contained than in big urban centers, but I may be wrong in that. Anyway everyone volunteered: The dentists volunteered their time, expertise and materials. The staff worked a weekend day without being paid. Local restaurants donated food for the line that would inevitably form, and local musicians even provided entertainment. Most offices I heard of required folks to register and gave them approximate times, so it wasn't just a chaotic line. Their treatments were mainly relief of pain via extraction and pulpotomy, or esthetic fixes in the Front Six area.

I haven't done this, but from what I hear from those who had, two things tended to happen. One, the standing of the practice in the wider community of paying patients skyrocketed. It was tremendous and sustained marketing, and it really cost just a fraction of signing on to a print or TV ad or some such thing. Two, who the heck do you think all those patients, many of whom were in tears, they were so grateful, sought care from once their luck turned around and they got a new job? As long as they didn't move away, there was only one dental practice they'd go to ever again.

These are both excellent strategies for our Dr. Tand, from earlier in the thread. Her name means "tooth" in Dutch and Danish, by the way.

In a more diffuse realm of "I picked myself," I've been volunteering prophys and other basic services at a school for the blind for something like 18 years now. One day I got pissed off that the state didn't really care about the population of institutionalized patients who have profound disabilities, and so I picked myself and did what I could pro bono. For restorative and perio treatments we occasionally bring a patient into my office or the residency I teach in etc. My own patients think this is cool, and it increases my street cred. Indirect, but valuable.

We also occasionally take dramatic pro bono action. About four years ago I got really angry about the plight of Mandaeans. This is an ancient religion and culture that has been severely disrupted by the war in Iraq. There are only about 60,000 of them in the world and they've undergone a terrible diaspora. I befriended a Mandaean physician and ended up treating, and becoming friends with, a refugee family. I kinda lost it on this one--I did about $12,000 of free dentistry, and never made any real use of it in terms of marketing, since it's a Mandaean thing to keep quiet about acts of charity and I wanted to respect that. But it's a heck of a story, and four years on it still feels damn good to have done more than the government for these fine people. Our government's handling of refugees is, it turns out, even more inept than its tax code. I really, really enjoy outsmarting the government once in awhile.

Many years ago, we did a similar thing with a family of five kids who were suddenly orphaned, and written up in the paper. Back in the old days, when newspapers had influence haha. Again, we didn't brag about it or use it gratuitously for marketing, but we did talk about it all with our paying patients and there were all kinds of positive effects from our actions.

I hope these specific examples inspire some of you to re-think your view of the pie. The realm of commodities is a realm of scarcity. The market forces of supply and demand reign supreme in the commerce of equivalent products and services like oil, high fructose corn syrup and mortgages. But you are dentists. You are not "equivalent," you are unique and remarkable.

And it is my considered view that it's not a zero-sum game, it's not either/or, and you should pick yourselves and grow the pie bigger in your own neighborhood.

Because you can.
 
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