2008 pathology applicants

[docbiohazard]

I know a guy who forgot his driver's license, and lives about 1.5 hours from the testing site... had to take it again, pay full price again.

Anyone else finishing early and trying to get Step 3 out of the way this spring?

BH

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[mlw03]

I know a guy who forgot his driver's license, and lives about 1.5 hours from the testing site... had to take it again, pay full price again.

Anyone else finishing early and trying to get Step 3 out of the way this spring?

BH

is that an option? i can't graduate early, so the soonest i could take it would be mid-may, and that would probably have to involve that trick because most of the states i'm looking at require you to wait a little while before sitting for step 3.

 

[gbwillner]

Just passing through, but thought it worth mentioning the following ideas to keep in mind (from previous days running a training program):

Programs want people who want them, so all other things being equal or comparable (grades, letters, institutions, publications, interviews), they would rather have someone they know is looking forward to working with them than someone who views it as the booby prize.

The consequence of that is, it is helpful to tell your first choice how you feel about them. If they aren't interested in you, it won't make a difference and you will get a polite reply (that is expected with email, but back in the day when it was done with paper and pen, responses usually were by phone if it was a great match). If they are equally interested in you, you will get a reassuring response ("we are looking forward to your joining us in July").

The important thing is to be honest and interact only with your top choice program this way. From the remove of administration now, looking across disciplines, it seems that this mating ritual takes on greater importance in fields with smaller training programs (fewer than 8 trainees per year). Possibly because the group dynamic is so much more important, possibly because top programs are going for the same small pool of applicants, possibly for other reasons.

None of this means that you need to tell someone that they are your pick. If you can't decide then let the match do the choosing. Remember, the computer system works to the applicant's advantage in finding you a home at the program highest on your list that has room for you -- but don't forget that the starting conditions for the match program are the rank order lists. So, what you say (or don't say) to programs can influence their list, just as what they said to you during interviews will have influenced your list. The system isn't perfect by any means and the important thing is to feel your way through to first decide what you want and then maximize your chance of getting it. That means, listing your ideal program at the top of the rank list and trying to make sure that you are as high up on the program's list as possible.

Remember as well, that (unfortunately) you may be happy or unhappy with your training experience but that it is only partially determined by where you are. Best of luck to all for optimizing satisfaction.

Thanks for the sound advice. I agree that it's best for all parties if both sides want each other- unfortunately the "things being equal" rule can apply the other way as well, and may force applicants to change their ROLs against their better judgement.

For example, take the following senario, where an applicant has two programs that he/she is greatly interested in, with program #1 being slightly preferrable to #2. In the true spirit of the match the applicant would expect to rank the programs in that order.
However, If program #2 contacts the applicant two weeks before the deadline and states that they are very excited about their candidacy, but that they want to know how the applicant feels about them (making the applicant believe that they won't be ranked unless they are #1) and program #1 does not contact the applicant at all (either because they are playing by the "spirit" of the match or because they aren't very interested or some other reason), the applicant may feel compelled to change his ROL and put #2 first. The reasoning for this move would be that if the applicant doesn not match at #1 (which may seem reasonable since they weren't contacted), they would also not match at #2 (since they gave up that opportunity), and fall to #3.

On the other hand, the applicant can do as you suggest, and tell #1 that they would rank them as such to "feel" them out. But if the program sends only a luke-warm reply, or the program refuses to state how they will rank the applicant, the applicant may then feel compelled to change his ROL, only they've already metaphorically popped their #1 rank cherry (sorry for the crude remark). And one thing I have heard from everybody is that it is in poor taste (and judgement) to tell more than one program that you will rank them first.

Sorry for the ramble.

 

[yaah]

If the situation you propose happened to me, which it sort of did, I would say, "I enjoyed your program very much, would be happy to match there, and will be ranking you highly." If they press you anymore (which the program in question did not do to me), bring up match violations. I would not hesitate to report a program for pressing you more. There are very few programs that want you to rank them #1 before they rank you. Most would be content with hearing that you really liked their program and they are one of your top considerations. They would prefer to hear they are #1, of course, but if you are a good candidate they are going to drop you off their list because you said you liked them a lot but didn't use the words "Top Choice."

Rank the programs in the order you want to match at. And bear in mind that many programs will NOT tell you where you rank, even if you are first on their list. So don't take silence or even lukewarm replies as having specific meaning.

And yes, it is in very poor taste to tell multiple programs they are your first choice.

 

[gbwillner]

If the situation you propose happened to me, which it sort of did, I would say, "I enjoyed your program very much, would be happy to match there, and will be ranking you highly." If they press you anymore (which the program in question did not do to me), bring up match violations. I would not hesitate to report a program for pressing you more. There are very few programs that want you to rank them #1 before they rank you. Most would be content with hearing that you really liked their program and they are one of your top considerations. They would prefer to hear they are #1, of course, but if you are a good candidate they are going to drop you off their list because you said you liked them a lot but didn't use the words "Top Choice."

Rank the programs in the order you want to match at. And bear in mind that many programs will NOT tell you where you rank, even if you are first on their list. So don't take silence or even lukewarm replies as having specific meaning.

And yes, it is in very poor taste to tell multiple programs they are your first choice.

I agree that your proposed solution is the most reasonable (by not explicitly giving the #1 but the "very highly" response). However, I disagree with bringing up match violations- while this may be true, I can't emagine doing this would bode well for your candidacy at that program.

My point in this senario was simply to point out how variablility between programs could hypothetically have an adverse effect on ROLs. If all programs told their applicants how they would rank ahead of time and expected as much in return this would also not happen.

 

[yaah]

Are they going to blackball you because you brought up that they are violating match rules? Let them do it and see how far they get. Obviously that could be a huge risk if you really want to go to the program, but it's a huge risk for them to violate match laws this way. And obviously, you do not accuse them of match violations if they are simply asking what you think of their program. But if they say something like (as a couple said to me), "We only rank people who are seriously interested in coming to our program," and they think your response of, "I enjoy your program and would feel fortunate if I matched here," is inadequate, then that is their problem, and not yours. If they want you to go further, you do not have to and nor should you.

I think my main point is if it is reaching this point in the game, this is probably not a program you want to spend 3-5 years at and having them prepare you for the world.

 

[docbiohazard]

is that an option? i can't graduate early, so the soonest i could take it would be mid-may, and that would probably have to involve that trick because most of the states i'm looking at require you to wait a little while before sitting for step 3.

To the best of my understanding, the state whose requirements you use to "sit" for the exam don't in any way have to relate to the state that you are in, take the exam in, or plan to practice in. Consequently you can just pick a state that only requires you to have an MD to sit for Step 3.

It's confusing, because on the FSMB's website, under eligibility requirements, they simply state that you must "Meet the requirements for taking Step 3 imposed by the individual licensing authority to which you are applying to sit Step 3." Then in the sidebar, they post a link to "Initial Licensure requirements" which is totally different. The link to the requirements to SIT for Step 3 is only found when you start going through the online application process. (http://www.fsmb.org/usmle_requirementschart.html?)

So its my understanding you can just pick any state w/o a post graduate training requirement (and w/o a requirement to simultaneously apply for licensure - there are quite a few), and then you're set. Florida no longer sponsors applicants, period, mlw... so may I recommend the great state of Texas?

Please, if I'm wrong about this, some resident correct me, but I feel like I've seen it discussed extensively in another thread.

BH

 

[docbiohazard]

My point in this senario was simply to point out how variablility between programs could hypothetically have an adverse effect on ROLs. If all programs told their applicants how they would rank ahead of time and expected as much in return this would also not happen.

I don't think that's variability between programs adversely affecting the ROL, but applicant insecurity. I think, much like Yaah said, in that situation, you just tell the programs you're ranking them highly, or even be very frank and tell those two programs that you're trying to decide between them. You could even tell the program that is contacting you that although you do like the other program, you haven't heard a peep out of them and appreciate all the communication. So long as you don't make any promises, no feelings should get overly hurt.

If all programs told everyone how they'd rank, I think you'd wind up with even more pressure on the applicants because the entire process would consist of "Well these are currently our top people, but tell us we're you're number one, and we'll bump this guy off the list and rank you to match, because we'd rather have you..." which would be exactly what the system is designed to prevent, I believe.

Just my 2 cents...
BH

 

[sickofit]

To the best of my understanding, the state whose requirements you use to "sit" for the exam don't in any way have to relate to the state that you are in, take the exam in, or plan to practice in. Consequently you can just pick a state that only requires you to have an MD to sit for Step 3.

It's confusing, because on the FSMB's website, under eligibility requirements, they simply state that you must "Meet the requirements for taking Step 3 imposed by the individual licensing authority to which you are applying to sit Step 3." Then in the sidebar, they post a link to "Initial Licensure requirements" which is totally different. The link to the requirements to SIT for Step 3 is only found when you start going through the online application process. (http://www.fsmb.org/usmle_requirementschart.html?)

So its my understanding you can just pick any state w/o a post graduate training requirement (and w/o a requirement to simultaneously apply for licensure - there are quite a few), and then you're set. Florida no longer sponsors applicants, period, mlw... so may I recommend the great state of Texas?

Please, if I'm wrong about this, some resident correct me, but I feel like I've seen it discussed extensively in another thread.

BH

i wanted to do this to, but i think there are some catches (try searching in the step III forum and you'll see more about it) like you have to have officially graduated from med school, not just completed your requirements in order to apply to take step 3. so even if you're done with rotations in march, you still have to sit on your butt until may/june for the official piece of paper from your school. and then once you apply, i think it can take up to 6 weeks to get your scheduling period so you may not even be able to set your test date until well into june/july when you're already looking to start residency. i'd like to hear more success stories from people who were able to take this thing before starting residency, because i'd like to do that too, but i haven't been able to find any yet. hopefully someone will enlighten us....

 

[docbiohazard]

You are correct with regards to needing the actual paper and the time delays involved. The way my program is structured I technically finished in December, so if neurology would ever turn in my grades, I could get said paper and get the ball rolling...

BH

 

[Dawn1980]

Sickofit has it basically right. Last year in February (during my 4th year), I did some extensive research on how to take Step 3 before intern year. It turned out unsuccessful for me. Here's how it goes:

1) You have to have your official diploma. Having completed requirements is not sufficient. I know, this sucks. If your Step 3 application is dated BEFORE your posted graduation day, your application will be denied.
2) Your medical school has to send an official graduation list to the FSMB. This can take up to 4 weeks. Even if you graduate in April/early-mid May (mine was May 11th), most schools wait until the first week of June to send an official list in. I asked both my med school and the FSMB why this is so. Both said that due to some students failing shelf exams/board exams/whatever, these students are generally behind in schedule and may need extra time post-graduation day to catch up. For example, some students at my school who failed had to spend an extra couple of weeks remediating (reasearch, clinical rotations, etc.) So even though these students "walk" on graduation day, they don't officially graduate for another few weeks. Thus, schools buy this extra cushion time for this purpose.
3)Once your application is in and your school sends in an official list, it takes another 2-3 weeks to process your application. You're looking at mid-June on average by the time you receive your scheduling permit. By the time you go to the website to schedule your test, you have very limited days to choose from (Prometric centers filled with Step 1 takers....) FSMB told me the best they could do for me was to schedule me starting June 22nd onward IF a Prometric center was available. Keep in mind, most programs (including mine) have orientation mid-to-late June not to mention moving and settling in (if that's your scenario as it was mine.) It was just too much of a crunch, so I ended up taking it in August. Plus, I hated the idea studying in June while running the risk that no test date was available.

I highly recommend taking Step 3 extremely early in your intern year. If you can squeeze the test in that window of June before intern year, that's great, but it seems to be unlikely for most people. Just take it ASAP. My clinical knowledge is exponentially decreasing by the day, unfortunately.

 

[gbwillner]

If all programs told everyone how they'd rank, I think you'd wind up with even more pressure on the applicants because the entire process would consist of "Well these are currently our top people, but tell us we're you're number one, and we'll bump this guy off the list and rank you to match, because we'd rather have you..." which would be exactly what the system is designed to prevent, I believe.

BH

According to the earlier post by Wisementor, this does seem to be taking place.

Personally, I agree with Yaah's strategy, and would decide on a #1 and just tell them and hope for the best. I just think that waiting to hear from programs to see how interested they are in you is just a source of anxiety- If all programs told you that you were ranked to match or not some of that anxiety may be relieved because you may feel that you have more control of your destiny. If applied to the above example, if you KNEW that program #1 did not contact you because you were NOT ranked to match, you may be willing to change to #2, feeling that you made a decision and could put your fears to rest. Otherwise you could decide to test fate by ranking them #1... either way I think it would involve less anxiety than simply not knowing what it means to NOT be contacted.

Anyway, I'll drop this topic, given that it is only a hypothetical situation and will only affect a minority of applicants.

 

[mlw03]

thanks for the detailed response, dawn. it does sound like taking the thing before starting residency would be tough given the time constraints.

"great state of texas", eh docbio? hehehe... i actually heard connecticut is a state that'll allow you to sit for the exam without any post-grad training.

when i actually take the exam will depend on my pgy-1 schedule. first lightish month and i'm taking it. however if i go somewhere that does all AP first year, i may just wait until early pgy-2 year. yes, clinical knowledge wanes, but i do think adequate study time would trump taking the exam ASAP with little time to study.

 

[docbiohazard]

"great state of texas", eh docbio? hehehe... i actually heard connecticut is a state that'll allow you to sit for the exam without any post-grad training.

Everyone always mentions Conneticut, but a quick glance at the list turns up Arkansas, California, Delaware, Maryland, Nebraska, Nevada, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, South Dakota, Texas, Utah, Virginia, and West Virginia as well, all states lacking any postgrad training and not requiring an application for licensure simultaneously to sit for the Step 3. The MD is an FSMB requirement.

BH

 

[Neddy]

This process is like high school dating all over again. The flirtation, the assumptions, the rules both written and unwritten. I don't see the point of these communications unless there are structural questions being asked/answered. I have had two programs ignore the rules and ask where I would be ranking them, and I decided that being vague is tantamount to telling them that they wouldn't be #1, so I said WTH and just answered honestly. It's annoying. Programs should just rank who they want in that order, and applicants should do the same. End of story, I don't see why programs think they have to know where they are being ranked.

Again, there should only be three responses to a program contacting you with a rank list 'feeler':

1) "I am ranking you #1"
2) "I am ranking you highly"
3) "I am not ranking you"

Keep it simple and you will never get yourself into trouble.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Thanks for the sound advice. I agree that it's best for all parties if both sides want each other- unfortunately the "things being equal" rule can apply the other way as well, and may force applicants to change their ROLs against their better judgement.

For example, take the following senario, where an applicant has two programs that he/she is greatly interested in, with program #1 being slightly preferrable to #2. In the true spirit of the match the applicant would expect to rank the programs in that order.
However, If program #2 contacts the applicant two weeks before the deadline and states that they are very excited about their candidacy, but that they want to know how the applicant feels about them (making the applicant believe that they won't be ranked unless they are #1) and program #1 does not contact the applicant at all (either because they are playing by the "spirit" of the match or because they aren't very interested or some other reason), the applicant may feel compelled to change his ROL and put #2 first. The reasoning for this move would be that if the applicant doesn not match at #1 (which may seem reasonable since they weren't contacted), they would also not match at #2 (since they gave up that opportunity), and fall to #3.

On the other hand, the applicant can do as you suggest, and tell #1 that they would rank them as such to "feel" them out. But if the program sends only a luke-warm reply, or the program refuses to state how they will rank the applicant, the applicant may then feel compelled to change his ROL, only they've already metaphorically popped their #1 rank cherry (sorry for the crude remark). And one thing I have heard from everybody is that it is in poor taste (and judgement) to tell more than one program that you will rank them first.

Sorry for the ramble.

gbwillner, I grappled with this kind of an issue several years ago when I applied. Some programs are very aggressive whereas others play by the rules. I know quite a few people from my class who experienced this and many of them did not tell their #1 program that they were their #1 choice. It didn't hurt them, but that's only speaking for folks at my program.

When I was in your shoes, I posted a lengthy diatribe about this situation which you may find if you search a few years back.

Now that I'm on the other side of it all, I have inquired with people who are in the position of evaluations and who are willing to give me straight answers instead of the company BS line.

At my program, what you tell them will not influence your position on the rank list. Each applicant gets a score from 1 to 5 after each interview and your numerical score decides your position on the rank list. People don't move up or down based on post-interview correspondences. But on the other hand, there are other programs who do not do this and will rank you to match if you tell them they are their #1 choice (and I'm not gonna get started on how perverted and despicable this is cuz I rambled about that a several years ago).

Another interesting tidbit is that program directors/chairs who have known each other for many years and are friends DO talk about applicants. There are a handful of folks that everybody wants and there will be feedback amongst programs.

What are the implications of that? Tell a program that they are #1 at your own risk. If you tell one program that they are #1, word of this verbal "commitment" may leak out and for other programs that rely on post-interview shenanigans to move people up or down the match list, this may hurt you. Hearing that was quite interesting but not unexpected. There were four programs that contacted me quite often. One program contacted me every week. Interestingly, when I did tell my current program that this was the one I wanted to train at, all of the correspondences stopped.

Now, I can't speak for what happened with regards to my positions on those programs' rank lists but that raises the following scenario:

You want to go to program X. X has 5 spots. You are #10 on their list. But they shower their top 20 candidates with a whole lotta love after the interview. You commit to program X by telling them they're #1. The PD of program X tells a bunch of his friends about this.

Programs A, B, and C ask you "what do you think about us?" You say, "I am ranking you highly" which translates to "I'm not ranking you #1." You move down their rank lists...just enough to not match there given that program X has filled by only going down to position 8 on their rank list = you just got F'd in the A.

Many years ago, my friend went through this kind of scenario...we talked about it since my experience at that time mirrored what he went through. He kinda spooked the hell outta me because he told me that he had lied when telling me that his residency program was his first choice. In fact, he had matched at the 7th program on his rank list.

So, be cautious about even telling someone they are #1. And telling multiple programs that they are your #1 can be disasterous and is much worse than not telling anybody "you are my #1".

When programs call you, I would not be hesitant to tell them that you are having a hard time decide between them and the other programs in your top 3. If program #8 calls you, same thing...say you're having a hard time choosing between them and your top 3. If program #10 calls you, same thing. This forces them to tell you the strengths of their program and why you should go there instead of the other places. You may find out inadvertant things about your top 3 programs from these conversations that you didn't know before. With this approach, you benefit the most.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

thanks for the detailed response, dawn. it does sound like taking the thing before starting residency would be tough given the time constraints.

"great state of texas", eh docbio? hehehe... i actually heard connecticut is a state that'll allow you to sit for the exam without any post-grad training.

when i actually take the exam will depend on my pgy-1 schedule. first lightish month and i'm taking it. however if i go somewhere that does all AP first year, i may just wait until early pgy-2 year. yes, clinical knowledge wanes, but i do think adequate study time would trump taking the exam ASAP with little time to study.

Regarding Step 3, I agree with previous posts. It is very hard to schedule Step 3 before you start residency because med schools need to have a list of graduates sent to the parties involved in Step 3 registration. Schools may not do this in a timely enough manner to be of benefit for your purposes.

mlw03, I agree with you. I happen to be at a program where residents do AP all first and second year. It was amazing how much clinical knowledge wanes. In fact, evidence based medicine can change in the scope of 2-3 years which can render some of the things you learned in med school as less valid. However, core concepts do not change and Step 3 is nice that way since they test on core medical knowledge and less on esoteric crap that you see more of in Step 1 and Step 2. Step 3 tests a lot on management and focuses on algorithmic approaches to the more common diseases encountered in clinical medicine. So I wouldn't fret. Assuming that you have a solid knowledge base in clinical medicine from your clerkships, you should be fine. I took my Step 3 near the end of my 2nd year of residency. It was amazing how much I had forgotten but how easy things came back. I studied for a good week (3-4 hrs a day) and I passed. I highly recommend going through the Swanson's Family Practice book...that hits the high points of all the basic disease entities and solidifies your knowledge with questions (although, these questions are not in USMLE format).

 

[malchik]

Very interesting, thanks stiefel. It would appear then that there may be a greater risk than benefit to revealing your #1 card.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Very interesting, thanks stiefel. It would appear then that there may be a greater risk than benefit to revealing your #1 card.

Well, you don't have to come straight out and tell a program, "you are my #1 choice." There are ways to spin it and you should spin things. You can say something like, "you are the best fit program" but qualify that with "given my professional goals and aspirations"...but seriously, maybe your professional goals and aspirations isn't the overriding factor in your decision making process, right (that's your way out)? That's just an example.

When sending out a feeler correspondence, one should never verbally commit. One should see the response before saying too much too soon.

Now, if you keep programs guessing and you don't reveal too much but just enough, that's where you want to be because they think they may get you and will want to rank you highly.

The Match is a game. I've said this in the past. The programs play it and so should you. This is a game of manipulation...a chess match if you will (more of an issue if you're a strong applicant). This isn't rock-paper-scissors-loogy.

 

[superdevil]

Well, you don't have to come straight out and tell a program, "you are my #1 choice." There are ways to spin it and you should spin things. You can say something like, "you are the best fit program" but qualify that with "given my professional goals and aspirations"...but seriously, maybe your professional goals and aspirations isn't the overriding factor in your decision making process, right (that's your way out)? That's just an example.

When sending out a feeler correspondence, one should never verbally commit. One should see the response before saying too much too soon.

Now, if you keep programs guessing and you don't reveal too much but just enough, that's where you want to be because they think they may get you and will want to rank you highly.

The Match is a game. I've said this in the past. The programs play it and so should you. This is a game of manipulation...a chess match if you will (more of an issue if you're a strong applicant). This isn't rock-paper-scissors-loogy.

so much gamesmanship? ugh, the match sounds worse than dating...

from an old-timey lurker--good luck to you guys in this year's match!

 

[schrute]

General question...is it better to rank a program towards the bottom of your list knowing that they ranked you very high, or just leave them off the list?
I'd rather go there than scramble, so as long as I rank them towards the end, I'll hopefully match earlier...any flaws in this logic?

 

[mlw03]

no flaw that i can see.

General question...is it better to rank a program towards the bottom of your list knowing that they ranked you very high, or just leave them off the list?
I'd rather go there than scramble, so as long as I rank them towards the end, I'll hopefully match earlier...any flaws in this logic?

 

[gbwillner]

OK, maybe not funny for me, but funny for you.....

I'm on OB/GYN right now and the past week I've been working OB L&D nights... Basically my shift is from 6PM to 7:30 AM (actually to 8:30 if you include sign outs). This is a one-week mess and it's been really difficult for me to adjust to this schedule. The first few nights I barely slept at all.

Anyway, on Wednesday I needed to seriously catch up on sleep, so I get home at 9AM and hit the sack hard. The first few nights I would tend to wake up around noon, but I was so exhausted by mid-week that I knew this wouldn't be a problem. Of course, right around noon my phone rings, and in an incoherent stupor I foolishly answer it. I was not happy about being woken up, and I let the person who called me, whom I had assumed was a telemarketer know this. I tend to despise telemarketers, who chose a profession whose sole purpose is to annoy people at home. Anyway, I was especially rude, answering the phone with a "What!!?". When the person on the other side asked for me, I responded with an abrupt "What is this about?" in an angry, angry tone. My point in this was 1)to let the caller know how much I detest them calling me and waking up and 2)hope they feel really guilty calling me at home, perhaps enough to the point that they reconsider their career goals.

As you may have guessed by now, the caller was a PD at one of the programs at the top of my ROL. I immediately realized I was a major A-hole and tried to apologize. They said they could call back when I "feeling better"... Oh, man. I tried in vein to smooth things over. Luckily for me, I think their ROL is probably submitted and the fact that I was a total *** probably won't hurt me.

Anyway, moral of the story... hmm.... probably don't answer the telephone.

Have a nice weekend...

 

[sweetymd]

haha same thing happened to me the other day.

 

[mlw03]

nice little story - thanks for sharing. a similar, shorter story is that i've gotten a few evening phone calls from residency people, and one of those nights i'd decided to have a few extra glasses of wine with dinner. i certianly wasn't drunk, but i was definitely in a jolly little mood. i doubt your episode will affect your position on their rank list. any PD who doesn't recognize we're normal adults who sometimes are in a crappy mood is living in a cave, and i didn't meet any PDs that seemed that oblivious.

 

[docbiohazard]

That's pretty funny GB... I get calls at the wierdest time, like when I'm in the grocery store. Get some pretty strange looks having a conversation with a PD on the diaper aisle...

BH

 

[Sean2tall]

Oh my haha. I am jealous about all these people getting calls. I haven't heard a peep and one PD is even ignoring my question that I E-mailed.

 

[clancy81]

Oh my haha. I am jealous about all these people getting calls. I haven't heard a peep and one PD is even ignoring my question that I E-mailed.

I'm right there with you on the no calls. Luckily, I did get my questions answered via email but it took awhile.

 

[docbiohazard]

Oh my haha. I am jealous about all these people getting calls. I haven't heard a peep and one PD is even ignoring my question that I E-mailed.

Didn't mean to make it sound like I"m just flooded. I've only recieved phone calls from two places out of the blue (and I interviewed at 15). I've recieved emails at various stages from a few others, but still not too many.

I think it depends on the program.

BH

 

[gbwillner]

Didn't mean to make it sound like I"m just flooded. I've only recieved phone calls from two places out of the blue (and I interviewed at 15). I've recieved emails at various stages from a few others, but still not too many.

I think it depends on the program.

BH

Hmm... I'm not sure what the fuss is all about... I interviewed at 10 places, and all ten e-mailed me at some point after the interview. Then, in the last two weeks, I've received calls from all ten at some point. Man, these PDs must have a lot of time on their hands. Don't they have better things to do than clog up my voice mail with messages?

 

[Tiki]

Hmm... I'm not sure what the fuss is all about... I interviewed at 10 places, and all ten e-mailed me at some point after the interview. Then, in the last two weeks, I've received calls from all ten at some point. Man, these PDs must have a lot of time on their hands. Don't they have better things to do than clog up my voice mail with messages?

We are happy for you, seriously. But for those of us who have not recieved ten calls from ten programs, it can be a little distressing. Mmmm'kay.

 

[malchik]

I believe the rolled eyes were intended to indicate sarcasm.

 

[Tiki]

I believe the rolled eyes were intended to indicate sarcasm.

You are probably right. Sorry. My b!tchiness excuse is that I'm post-call from the ICU. And that I've only recieved one phone call.

 

[Sean2tall]

You are probably right. Sorry. My b!tchiness excuse is that I'm post-call from the ICU. And that I've only recieved one phone call.

Oooh my. I am on Medicine Sub I right now, although it is actually not overly grueling. Sometimes I think I could enjoy doing Medicine, although I'm sure if I was really tired and worn out, I would be sick of chatting it up with the patients and filling out paperwork.

I have only heard from 1 program with an E-mail regarding, "We are ranking you . . " blah-blah. Definitely no phone calls. So, no worries.

 

[mlw03]

like sean, no phone calls from PDs. one from a resident at a program, which was kinda nice actually - i thought it showed a somewhat personal touch.

i'm on a path rotation now, pretty much focusing exclusively on grossing. got to gross in an AKA specimen today. dissecting out the popliteal, ant tib, and post tib was interesting. and totally different technique than how you dissect in anatomy lab. i feel for ya'll on sub-Is or rotations with overnight call. very not cool.

is anyone else kinda over the whole Match stress thing? with all this waiting it sorta seems anti-climactic. kinda like the 5 week gap between the end of the college football season and the big bowl games. by the time the bowls come around i've lost all the excitment i had at the end of the season. same with this. sure, i'm excited to see where i'll be going, but it seems more matter of fact to me now. as in, "i'll be going to university X in somewhere, USA" to start my new job. i've kinda felt this way since i made my final rank list a few weeks ago. anyone else feeling similarly?

 

[Arctic Char]

hey guys i have a question for you -

people often remark about the advantages to applying early, and i will definitely follow the advice. but since there seems to be a large window of time during which interviews are conducted for path (sept - jan, even feb), is there any advantage to interviewing early? i imagine that once you are invited to interview, its then a matter of scheduling the interview. i had planned on saving december to do as many of my interviews as possible . . . is this a good way to go? logistically speaking i think it saves a headache or two, but will it compromise me at all?

thanks guys, anxious to see your match RESULTS!

cheers

 

[b&ierstiefel]

hey guys i have a question for you -

people often remark about the advantages to applying early, and i will definitely follow the advice. but since there seems to be a large window of time during which interviews are conducted for path (sept - jan, even feb), is there any advantage to interviewing early? i imagine that once you are invited to interview, its then a matter of scheduling the interview. i had planned on saving december to do as many of my interviews as possible . . . is this a good way to go? logistically speaking i think it saves a headache or two, but will it compromise me at all?

thanks guys, anxious to see your match RESULTS!

cheers

Sounds like a good plan. I don't see how clustering interviews will hurt you...unless you burn out easily.

 

[Sean2tall]

hey guys i have a question for you -

people often remark about the advantages to applying early, and i will definitely follow the advice. but since there seems to be a large window of time during which interviews are conducted for path (sept - jan, even feb), is there any advantage to interviewing early? i imagine that once you are invited to interview, its then a matter of scheduling the interview. i had planned on saving december to do as many of my interviews as possible . . . is this a good way to go? logistically speaking i think it saves a headache or two, but will it compromise me at all?

thanks guys, anxious to see your match RESULTS!

cheers

As far as I can tell, there is no real advantage to interviewing early (October or so). As long as you can handle the travel (etc.) of having the bulk of them in December, then that is probably a fine plan. I definitely got burned out towards the end and canceled some interviews which might have been decent programs. I would expect to be somewhat burned out by the end of January. One thing to keep in mind is that most programs do not interview around the holidays, so that leaves usually only 3 full weeks in December.

It is impossible to control the timing of all interviews. Some programs, I found, only offer January or perhaps only Mondays. You may have already booked all of your Mondays in December, and thus have to go to another month. So I would not schedule rotations that you are not allowed to miss days from in Nov, Dec, Jan. But you can certainly have the bulk of them somewhat grouped together. Some people I know didn't even use their vacation time for interviews.

 

[Tiki]

l

is anyone else kinda over the whole Match stress thing? with all this waiting it sorta seems anti-climactic. kinda like the 5 week gap between the end of the college football season and the big bowl games. by the time the bowls come around i've lost all the excitment i had at the end of the season. same with this. sure, i'm excited to see where i'll be going, but it seems more matter of fact to me now. as in, "i'll be going to university X in somewhere, USA" to start my new job. i've kinda felt this way since i made my final rank list a few weeks ago. anyone else feeling similarly?

I wish I wasn't stressed, but to be honest I'm feeling more stressed. This whole debate on whether to tell my number one they are my number one is making me crazy. And I feel like I haven't given as much attention to my 2-10, so if I don't rank at my number one I could drop pretty far down my list.

I can't wait till this whole thing is over. And I can't wait till my month in the ICU is over. Nothing like learning about vent settings to put one in a jolly mood. I have to keep thinking about the Giants and David Tyree's helmet catch to get myself through the day.

 

[gbwillner]

I wish I wasn't stressed, but to be honest I'm feeling more stressed. This whole debate on whether to tell my number one they are my number one is making me crazy. And I feel like I haven't given as much attention to my 2-10, so if I don't rank at my number one I could drop pretty far down my list.

I can't wait till this whole thing is over. And I can't wait till my month in the ICU is over. Nothing like learning about vent settings to put one in a jolly mood. I have to keep thinking about the Giants and David Tyree's helmet catch to get myself through the day.

I forgot to add earlier that all those PDs told me over the phone that I was lucky to hear from them, since NOT hearing from them would have meant that, not only would I not match there, but that they actually would have called up the PDs at the other programs I applied to and told them how pathetic I was.



Seriously, let's all just sit back and relax- there's really nothing more that can be done at this point. I don't really think telling your #1 about their position will hurt you- what are the chances they will call up other program PDs to discuss you? Unless they have a debate about who has the cutest avatar on SDN, I think this will be unlikely. On the other hand, it probably won't help you either, since most programs probably turned in their ROL after their committee met sometime in the last month after all their interviews were over.

Don't forget that 99.9% of your application was complete the minute you finished your interview. Even if you could alter things at this point, it will probably only be by an insignificant amount.

As an example, I remember my interview at MGH. many of the residents I spoke with told me that they had NO IDEA that they would match there, and they never heard from the PD, and that they were VERY surprised to find out they matched there.

So just chill.

 

[MasterThespian]

Haha! Am I the only one who got offered a free Lamborghini at all the programs I interviewed at after being flown back for 2nd looks on the university's private jets?

Seriously, though, my problem is I can't even decide on my number one because my hubby, the primary breadwinner, hasn't decided where he wants to be. So I told my top few programs that I was "ranking them highly" and I'll just hope for the best when I finally submit my rank list.

Godspeed!

 

[KenshinFX]

During my interviews for Pathology, I've heard how much more competitive 2008 has been than previous years. Just out of curiousity, what kind of numbers are you all hearing from the programs you've interviewed at?

These are some of the numbers I was given during my interviews.

Creighton, Omaha - 2 positions - 309 applicants
Henry Ford, Detroit - 4 positions - 458 applicants
MetroHealth, Cleveland - 2 positions - 350 applicants

 

[docbiohazard]

but since there seems to be a large window of time during which interviews are conducted for path (sept - jan, even feb), is there any advantage to interviewing early? i imagine that once you are invited to interview, its then a matter of scheduling the interview. i had planned on saving december to do as many of my interviews as possible . . . is this a good way to go? logistically speaking i think it saves a headache or two, but will it compromise me at all?

Don't think it'll compromise you. You'll find many programs don't interview in October, some start even later... but by applying early and getting interview invites early, you can really cluster your interviews to save $$$ on travel.

So I had 11 interviews I had to travel for, which I grouped into 6 blocks of travel. I strung 3 together in one city (which was rough), and had a couple that I arranged for multi-legged journeys (so I'd fly to city A, interview, then city B, interview, then home...) I found I could save a lot of money on those three legged flights. I even took a midnight train to Georgia once, but that's another story.

The only thing I'd recommend is if you find you like a program early, revisit it after your done. I really liked a program that was one of my first interviews. Over time, it had faded in my memory... when I went back for a second visit I was reminded of everything I liked about it and it ultimately bumped it up considerably in my rank list.

BH

 

[docbiohazard]

is anyone else kinda over the whole Match stress thing? ... sure, i'm excited to see where i'll be going, but it seems more matter of fact to me now. as in, "i'll be going to university X in somewhere, USA" to start my new job. i've kinda felt this way since i made my final rank list a few weeks ago. anyone else feeling similarly?

Very much so. I still need to submit my certified ROL (one more second visit to go)... but I'm 99% certain I know where my top choice is, and 99.999% certain they're going to rank me to match, so that's removed a lot of the uncertainty from the whole equation and put me at peace. I also recieved my diploma last week and have been chilling in the lab working a little post-doc action since the holidays, so that's taken my mind off it (although given me considerably more time to surf SDN...)

So I feel bad for everyone that's stressing. Just show your top few choices some love without making promises you can't keep, and keep it frosty...

BH

 

[Arctic Char]

thanks for the feedback

 

[cmz]

I think I heard that UT-SW received about 400+ applications. Seems like path is pretty popular these days...

 

[docbiohazard]

Yep, most places didn't talk about specific numbers, just that they were up - way up in some cases. As I've said before, 12 out of a class of ~200 at my school are applying for Path this year at my school. Typically it's like 2-4, tops.

I had some places that ask me if I have any idea why the popularity is up... I don't really. I don't think it's CSI or House...

BH

 

[Path or bust]

Yep, most places didn't talk about specific numbers, just that they were up - way up in some cases. As I've said before, 12 out of a class of ~200 at my school are applying for Path this year at my school. Typically it's like 2-4, tops.

I had some places that ask me if I have any idea why the popularity is up... I don't really. I don't think it's CSI or House...

BH

Same here. We have about 8 or 9 out of 215 interviewing for path. Usually it's 1-2.

 

[Pangu]

Yep, most places didn't talk about specific numbers, just that they were up - way up in some cases. As I've said before, 12 out of a class of ~200 at my school are applying for Path this year at my school. Typically it's like 2-4, tops.

I had some places that ask me if I have any idea why the popularity is up... I don't really. I don't think it's CSI or House...

BH

Pathology is definitely becoming more competitive over the years, but is not as much as it appears. Most programs I heard received about 300-500 applications this year. Some say that they got over 100 more than last year. This sounds like a lot at the beginning, but only about 60-80 out of 400 of those were from AMG applicants. This number was from a few decent university programs. I would expect the percentage of AMG applications to be even lower for most community programs. The rest of the applications were made up by IMGs, many of whom applied to an increased number of programs due to the increased competition in recent years. This at least partly contributed to the high number of applications programs see for the past couple of years.

 

[Pangu]

Haha! Am I the only one who got offered a free Lamborghini at all the programs I interviewed at after being flown back for 2nd looks on the university's private jets?
Godspeed!

Am I the only one who offered all the programs a free lamborghini and still wasn't flown back for 2nd looks?