35% of female physicians are not married?

[medstyle]

and I was the one who said i wanted to marry a doctor, and I don't want my life cooking, cleaning, or even watching the kids for most of the day!

Are you for real? A liberal woman who doesn't agree with you must be lonely and unintellectual? You're a hopeless case.

Same diff, to me, since I'm not against marriage at all. I would absolutely like to get married -- to the right person. But I'm not going to define myself by whether or not I do end up married.

Nah, that's not what women's progress means. Women's progress means a recognition of the idea that men should pitch in equally in the home and that both partners can have a career. I'm sorry you just don't get that.

Yeah, but there is also a sense of accomplishment, independence, and pride that comes from having a career. Women are entitled to that feeling as well. It can be very isolating to be home alone with children all day. Many women crave adult interaction. Men are not entitled to a more well-rounded and fulfilling existence simply because they have a penis.



I don't need anyone to care for me, but I would like to be in a marriage/long-term relationship where my partner and I cared equally for each other.

Hmm, I don't think relationships are as clear-cut as you would make them out to be.

Are you willing to sacrifice a career for your wife's career? So that she can have the job she wants, and you can stay home? No? Why not? Aren't you willing to sacrifice anything for your wife? No? Then why should she? [sarcasm]Because she has a vagina, you say? <Slaps forehead> Ah!!! NOW I get it! All this time, thinking there was no good reason for a woman to have to sacrifice her career goals so that her husband could achieve his? You have finally put it into place for me. IT'S THE VAGINA! Vaginas aren't as good as penises! And they don't have hanging bits! [/sarcasm]


Who said anything about a marriage of convenience? If anything, you men who want to find a bride who conforms to your standard of what a wife should be are looking for convenience. True love means wanting the person you are with to achieve all that they desire. Apparently, that just wouldn't be okay with you unless you find a woman who solely desires to raise a family.



I am sorry you seem to feel that the only way a relationship is valid is with a marriage license. I also don't know why you're harping on this "partner" thing, since I never said I was against marriage. But back to what makes a relationship valid: I suppose you don't believe that gay couples love each other the way hetero couples do either, huh? Cause they don't have that precious marriage license (unless they live in MA)?



Nice try on the low blow, but it didn't work. I am extremely close to my family. My parents are still married. I come from a traditional home. Isn't it just shocking that someone who has a close family could *gasp* ever grow up and become a big bad liberal who believes in gender equality?

No one said marriage wasn't beneficial. YOUR idea of a marriage, meaning the woman stays home and cooks dinner and wipes noses while the father works, isn't necessarily beneficial.

Probably. Damn those women, thinking they're intelligent.

All liberal women have those stone-cold hearts, don't they? What kind of red-blooded American woman wouldn't want to spend every waking moment with a babe pressed to her bosom? Any woman who thinks otherwise is just... cooooollllllddddd.

Well, everyone, let's call the parade coordinators.

Does your "girlfriend" know that you don't "consider" her an "equal"?



You gotta hand it to the man... he can still overgeneralize with the best of 'em.

---

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[USAF_Dentman]

I like what Susan B anthony said about why she didn't choose to marry: that she didn't want to just be "some man's housekeeper."

You guys who talk about having a dumb blond barefoot and pregnant, ugh, you are like the neanderthals. And I live in Utah so I should know about barefoot and pregnant (and multiple wives at that ... ).

I like how the women have really held their own on this thread. Now if the guys could just add a few years to their maturity level then we would all be better off. I think alot of women chose not to marry because of what Susan B. said, and I personally agree with her. I would like to marry for love but I sure as heck don't want to just be someone's housekeeper when I can be the big bucks breadwinner myself. I like having my own assets and making my own decisions and being a full person in my own right. Who the heck wouldn't? It's a great feeling to have your own life and know that you've made your own money and whatever. My married girlfriends all have to 'ask' their husbands if they can 1) work, 2) go shopping or 3) have friends over. What's up with that?!

We've come along way from when my grandmother wanted to go to medical school but had to settle instead for being a chemistry teacher - and she got paid LESS than my grandfather for the exact same work. So let's keep working on this equality thing, and here's to marriages made of equals who choose to be together out of love and not out of convenience.

I think you're wrong here. You assume that ALL women want to have jobs and do their own thing.

Have you ever considered that some women want to be stay at home mothers, and millions of them are very content and satisfied with doing so.

To me, if a women wants to work, I'll support her 100%. If she wants to be a stay at home mother, i'll support her 100%. Either way, its up to the women what she wants to do. But you have to realize that different women want to do different things, and you shouldnt force a belief on them, be it mothering or working....

 

[CarleneM]

it isn't "weird machismo." its practicality. people have full time jobs. each spouse can't spend half the day at home caring for the kids and half at work. some people do not want a nanny, day care or someone else other than the child's parents to raise their children. there are plenty of women out there who want to be "homemakers" and do not want to have career. and that's totally fine. there are obviously men out there looking for that. if a man forced a woman who wanted a career into staying home or giving up a career against her will, than that's a shame and unfair. however, many woman aren't looking to have a career. if people want to have a traditional american family then that isn't an evil horrible thing if that's what both parties want.

you are obviously a very different type of feminist than i am so i doubt we'd ever see eye to eye on this matter.

I actually believe it is an unfair, maybe even selfish, stance to take at the outset of relationship, i.e. as an ideal. What motivaton would a man have to desire some abstact woman, his future wife, to stay home while he is the "primary breadwinner" except out of some weird machismo? He hasn't met her yet, he doesn't know what her beliefs and desires are. It grates on me to see "homemaker" being a criterion for choosing a mate along with "beautiful, smart etc." It should really be irrelevant. It should be ASSUMED that both partners in a relationship will shoulder the child-rearing responsibilities and if a different sort of situation works out, that's great, but to specifically seek out a wife who prefers not to work is, in my view, bordering on the sexist because it is limiting a WOMAN's choice, not a specific person's. And it is a choice that has taken women a lot of time and effort to gain and should therefore be treated with the utmost sensitivity. The fact that many men still seem to hold this view (if it were only a few, who cares) is indicative of a fundamental societal problem and only serves to reinforce the paradigm of the traditional American family.

 

[Brain]

Any men out there interested in being my house husband?

 

[cooldreams]

"My married girlfriends all have to 'ask' their husbands if they can 1) work, 2) go shopping or 3) have friends over. What's up with that?!"

to me that is sorta ok. in a marriage, you are supposed to share stuff and present each other on an equal level.

1) so if you chose to goto work when the other is off and you never discussed that, then that is not too nice. you grow distant from each other since you hardly ever see each other. you both will end up spending more time with other ppl

2) what if the other already bought the stuff you were gonna get? or maybe you are trying to spend money equally, but if you are always out spending money while the other is not, then that is not too nice.

3) what if the other person wanted a quiet night, and all of a sudden ten of your friends shows up. if i were the person who wanted the quiet night, i think i would just goto a motel for a few nights or more without saying anything, just leave...

love... ah yes,,, love... how lovely love is, to be in love and be loved by someone lovely. love love love.... it can be nice, a good thing, but it may also blind you and make you make bad decisions. if you want to "be your own person" then you wont fall in the "trap of love" and "compromise by giving everything up to the other"...

i would really like to find a special someone out there, close to my heart, to share my life with. be mutually in love with. i have serious doubts it will ever happen.

what do you ppl all really want in a relationship? me- i want a wife, a person i can confide in, trust more than anyone else. i also want her to be intelligent and somewhat independent, i want her to be happy. then eventually a family if possible. i like kids, i like people.

 

[CarleneM]

Any men out there interested in being my house husband?

yes, but you won't find them on a pre-med forum......just as there aren't too many (or any) future housewifes lurking around these parts.

 

[cooldreams]

yes, but you won't find them on a pre-med forum......just as there aren't too many (or any) future housewifes lurking around these parts.

never know...

 

[MedicineBird]

I'm going to hazard a guess that the correlation is not between marriage and a decreased lifespan, but between childbirth and a decreased lifespan, as it takes a toll on the body. Even still, women don't seem to be making out too badly on that front, as they still live longer than men.

No, Prowler, i've actually read this in 2 textbooks as well (One was Sociology of Family and another was a Psych book) I've also read it in journals as well.

Here's a blurb I found on line from one of the studies. (I know many have been done) and note that it doesn't say women's lifespans decrease -- they simply don't see as dramatic of an increase. I know when a wife dies before her husband there is a high incidence of the widower's death soon after as well.

Study Finds Married Men Live Longer
Marriage seems to be so good for men's health that married men are less likely to die in a given period than their single counterparts, according to researchers.

Professor Andrew Oswald and Dr. Jonathan Gardner from the department of economics at Warwick University looked at data on more than 12,000 adults from the British Household Survey and the British Retirement Survey.

Factoring out influences such as smoking and drinking, married men were 6.1 percent less likely to die over a seven-year period than single men, they found.

Women benefited less from marriage, with their death risk dropping just 2.9 percent.

Researchers have often found that married men and women are healthier than their single counterparts, (Editor: so why was smoking and drinking factored out?) and the Warwick researchers speculate that a spouse might reduce a man's stress and encourage a healthy lifestyle.

But that does not seem to be the only factor, they noted..

"Exactly how marriage works its magic remains mysterious," they wrote in their report.

"Perhaps a strong personal relationship improves mental health and helps the individual to ward off physical illness. More research here is certainly needed."

Oswald said the findings debunk the idea that wealthier people live longer. "Forget cash. It is as clear as day from the data that marriage, rather than money, is what keeps people alive," he said in a statement
Source: http://xtramsn.co.nz/news/0,,3782-1681900,00.html

 

[Acherona]

Props to stinkycheese Even if they still don't get it, at least they heard it.

And yes numerous studies have found that men benefit more than women from marriage. Google it. Here is one I found:
"The relationship between marital status and mortality exhibits consistent pattern in long-term studies, with marital status affording greater protection from mortality for men compared to women (50% higher among women, 250% higher among men."
Sources: Litwak E, Messeri P. Organizational theory, social supports, and mortality rates: a theoretical convergence. Am Sociol Rev 1989;54: 49- 66. Berkman LF, Breslow L. Health and ways of living: the Alameda county study. New York: Oxford Univ. Press; 1983. Ross CE, Mirowsky J, Goldsteen K. The impact of the family on health: the decade in review. J Marriage Fam 1990;52:1059-78.

 

[Mr. Seeds]

No, Prowler, i've actually read this in 2 textbooks as well (One was Sociology of Family and another was a Psych book) I've also read it in journals as well.

Well sweet Jesus Pete! She read it in a Sociology textbook!

Probably authored by a wymen's studies professor, to boot.

 

[Acherona]

You can call it feminist but I view it almost as an ethical issue. It's about being a responsible member of society and thinking about how your personal philosophies impact an entire social structure. It's a little worrisome if future doctors, supposedly interested in humans and their communities, aren't willing to reflect a little on this beyond their immediate personal situation. Sometimes we have to subvert our own desires (too lazy to recycle, don't feel like giving my xmas money to tsunami victims) to bring about greater change.

it isn't "weird machismo." its practicality. people have full time jobs. each spouse can't spend half the day at home caring for the kids and half at work. some people do not want a nanny, day care or someone else other than the child's parents to raise their children. there are plenty of women out there who want to be "homemakers" and do not want to have career. and that's totally fine. there are obviously men out there looking for that. if a man forced a woman who wanted a career into staying home or giving up a career against her will, than that's a shame and unfair. however, many woman aren't looking to have a career. if people want to have a traditional american family then that isn't an evil horrible thing if that's what both parties want.

you are obviously a very different type of feminist than i am so i doubt we'd ever see eye to eye on this matter.

 

[stinkycheese]

To me, if a women wants to work, I'll support her 100%. If she wants to be a stay at home mother, i'll support her 100%. Either way, its up to the women what she wants to do. But you have to realize that different women want to do different things, and you shouldnt force a belief on them, be it mothering or working....

And your support of a woman's right to choose her own career path is exactly what we wish for.

I would also like to point out that the idea that many women are content being stay-at-home mothers, while true in some cases, is also not necessarily wholly accurate. Many women aspire to be full-time mothers because of a societal pressure to want this job; as we've seen on this thread, women who want to work are perceived by some as cold or not loving their children. There is a serious pressure for women to conform to the role of caretaker of children and to cut back on her career if finances allow. Many women who spend all day at home with children end up with pretty serious feelings of isolation, and perhaps even depression, given that they have no adult contact and do not get to use the same sorts of skills they were using in their jobs as often. But if a woman admitted to these feelings, she'd be a "bad mother". So many women keep them inside and continue to conform to societal roles.

I am sure there are many women who are perfectly and wonderfully fulfilled by being full-time mothers. More power to them. But I also think its important to realize that not everyone who is a full-time mother is totally satisfied or happy with her position.

 

[stinkycheese]

it isn't "weird machismo." its practicality. people have full time jobs. each spouse can't spend half the day at home caring for the kids and half at work.

My interpretation of what Acherona was saying is that having the idea that you want to be the primary breadwinner before you meet your wife (ie, having her desire to be a housewife be a primary component of what would make her an "acceptable" spouse) is part of what keeps women pushed into the traditional gender roles in society, and makes it difficult to break free of the pressure to conform. If many men hold this "pre-requisite" in high regard, women who want to get married and have kids are not really encouraged to find ways to balance their desire for career with marriage and children.

Additionally, there are many women who work out part-time work options once they have kids. Would it be so difficult and awful for a man to do the same? No, but the fact is, society doesn't encourage men to be flexible about their career plans. So many boys, like medstyle, have pre-requisites for their wives: be a housewife, or I don't want you. That is a perpetuation of societal gender roles and seems, to me, closed-minded and disrespectful of women in general. Any woman he is willing to get serious with must share this "I'll be the housewife" mindset? That just seems... odd, to me. I can see how some would argue that it's a shared "life goal" to have a family and that their "values" are the same, but I think that its sad that women are forced into traditional gender roles in society because of a sense of preserving the "value" of family. That's a mighty guilt trip. And why is it the woman who will be failing the family by wanting to bend the traditional rules of gender role? Why is it never the man, with his inflexibility to compromise, who is failing the family?

 

[MedicineBird]

Well sweet Jesus Pete! She read it in a Sociology textbook!

Probably authored by a wymen's studies professor, to boot.

guess you're one of the self enamoured premeds that doesn't see the value of social science in medicine. God help your patients. Oh and before you knock me for having a minor in Sociology and scoff at my "non-science" education -- I also have degrees granted from the department of chemistry and also the microbiology, molecular biology, biochemistry (MMBB) department. A good grasp of the social sciences is, in my opinion, crucial in practicing medicine these days. If you need proof go spend a week in an ER (although if you are observant it should only take 1 night.)

 

[Old_Mil]

It grates on me to see "homemaker" being a criterion for choosing a mate along with "beautiful, smart etc." It should really be irrelevant. It should be ASSUMED that both partners in a relationship will shoulder the child-rearing responsibilities and if a different sort of situation works out, that's great, but to specifically seek out a wife who prefers not to work is, in my view, bordering on the sexist because it is limiting a WOMAN's choice, not a specific person's.

Out of curiousity, who the hell are you to tell other people what they should want out of a relationship? This has to be some of the most thoughtless, arrogant drivel I've seen posted on here.

 

[Mr. Seeds]

Out of curiousity, who the hell are you to other people what they should want out of a relationship? This has to be some of the most thoughtless, arrogant drivel I've seen posted on here.

Indeed.

 

[CarleneM]

jeez. i am interested in "humans and their communities" but i don't think the only ethical way to be interested is by condemning those that choose a more traditional family structure. its certainly not what i want for my own life but i don't think wanting a house husband is bad either. traditional family values are not unethical nor are traditional gender roles. i'm thankful i have a choice these days not to conform to them but i am really not bothered hearing that others, men and women, still adhere to them. do i feel pressured to be a housewife? no. do i think i'm going to be a bad or inadequate mother because of my career choices? no. there are women out there who still feel societal pressure to be a housewife, sure, and men and parents pressuring them to be just that. but i don't think the men on this board are talking about pressuring otherwise career oriented women into giving up their careers. there are women out there who are happy being housewives (yes i am well aware of the Feminine Mystique, which would argue otherwise) and I think that's fine. good for them. there's nothing unethical about that choice (and yes its a choice, in this day and age in America).

You can call it feminist but I view it almost as an ethical issue. It's about being a responsible member of society and thinking about how your personal philosophies impact an entire social structure. It's a little worrisome if future doctors, supposedly interested in humans and their communities, aren't willing to reflect a little on this beyond their immediate personal situation. Sometimes we have to subvert our own desires (too lazy to recycle, don't feel like giving my xmas money to tsunami victims) to bring about greater change.

 

[Old_Mil]

I think that its sad that women are forced into traditional gender roles in society...

Understand that women aren't "forced" into traditional gender roles in society. If a woman wants to pursue a career with all her energy and forgo marriage and a family, nobody is stopping her from doing that. Several of the female premeds here have posted their desire to do just that. More power to them.

The problem occurs when women make this decision and then whine about the opportunity cost of making it (ie, "Oh no! I've spent my entire life becoming a butch intellectual! Now I can't get a successful man!"). Choices have consequences and we have to be prepared to deal with the consequences of those choices when we make them.

Yes, I'm one of those knuckle-draggers who will seek out a woman who has spent time preparing herself for a career as a housewife and who wants that job - and will do so without apology. Our future female feminazi physicians shouldn't presume to sit in judgement of that choice - or of the choices my future spouse will have made to put herself in the position to be that.

 

[medstyle]

stop quoting me incorrectly you freak of nature, stinky. When did i say i want a housewife? I have alot of posts in this discussion, none of them say that.

You're just mad because I don't change diapers and wash dishes. You wanna be a man? Its not all just watching football (which i don't do). There is alot of responsibility that comes with it. Not many CEOs are women...you ever wonder why? Is it all just sexism?

Have you never seen a sitution where a man's or woman's steretypical characteristics were of value?

Haha, i'd love to meet ur father. He must be a hell of a guy to inspire such confidence from you about men in general.

Stop quoting me incorrectly you degenerate pseudo feminist. You're like a chauvinist, except that you're insulting most women too. Good job.

Once again, i repeat, I NEVER SAID I WANT TO MARRY A HOUSEWIFE! If you don't agree with me saying men and women are different, thats fine. But don't put words in my mouth and I won't put anything of mine in yours.

mmkay?

My interpretation of what Acherona was saying is that having the idea that you want to be the primary breadwinner before you meet your wife (ie, having her desire to be a housewife be a primary component of what would make her an "acceptable" spouse) is part of what keeps women pushed into the traditional gender roles in society, and makes it difficult to break free of the pressure to conform. If many men hold this "pre-requisite" in high regard, women who want to get married and have kids are not really encouraged to find ways to balance their desire for career with marriage and children.

Additionally, there are many women who work out part-time work options once they have kids. Would it be so difficult and awful for a man to do the same? No, but the fact is, society doesn't encourage men to be flexible about their career plans. So many boys, like medstyle, have pre-requisites for their wives: be a housewife, or I don't want you. That is a perpetuation of societal gender roles and seems, to me, closed-minded and disrespectful of women in general. Any woman he is willing to get serious with must share this "I'll be the housewife" mindset? That just seems... odd, to me. I can see how some would argue that it's a shared "life goal" to have a family and that their "values" are the same, but I think that its sad that women are forced into traditional gender roles in society because of a sense of preserving the "value" of family. That's a mighty guilt trip. And why is it the woman who will be failing the family by wanting to bend the traditional rules of gender role? Why is it never the man, with his inflexibility to compromise, who is failing the family?

 

[CarleneM]

hey i support your choice... but i wouldn't call successful female physicians "butch intellectuals." trust me, i'm not butch by any stretch of the imagination. i think some of the women are arguing that its unfortunate that women are made to feel bad about choosing a non-traditional gender role and blaming men who want to marry traditional women for perpetuating those roles. but i'm with you- i'm ready to live with whatever judgment others may make about me in taking on this high power career. i know i have options and no one has forced me into either role. i think as long as women are the ones bearing the children, there is always going to be tension in what her role "should be" in society and people just need to make personal choices to find the right individual balance.

Understand that women aren't "forced" into traditional gender roles in society. If a woman wants to pursue a career with all her energy and forgo marriage and a family, nobody is stopping her from doing that. Several of the female premeds here have posted their desire to do just that. More power to them.

The problem occurs when women make this decision and then whine about the opportunity cost of making it (ie, "Oh no! I've spent my entire life becoming a butch intellectual! Now I can't get a successful man!"). Choices have consequences and we have to be prepared to deal with the consequences of those choices when we make them.

Yes, I'm one of those knuckle-draggers who will seek out a woman who has spent time preparing herself for a career as a housewife and who wants that job - and will do so without apology. Our future female feminazi physicians shouldn't presume to sit in judgement of that choice - or of the choices my future spouse will have made to put herself in the position to be that.

 

[45408]

NoWomen benefited less from marriage, with their death risk dropping just 2.9 percent.

That just means that the original claim was wrong anyways:

I'll try to dig one up. I may have the numbers wrong on years, but I have read many times that marriage adds to a man's life but does not add, and in some cases shortens, a woman's life.

 

[stinkycheese]

Understand that women aren't "forced" into traditional gender roles in society. If a woman wants to pursue a career with all her energy and forgo marriage and a family, nobody is stopping her from doing that. Several of the female premeds here have posted their desire to do just that. More power to them.

Can't you see that what you just said is a form of forcing women into gender roles? Why can't a career woman have both a family and a job she likes? Why must women choose, while men get to have it all?

The problem occurs when women make this decision and then whine about the opportunity cost of making it (ie, "Oh no! I've spent my entire life becoming a butch intellectual! Now I can't get a successful man!"). Choices have consequences and we have to be prepared to deal with the consequences of those choices when we make them.

Why are you so disgusting in how you describe career women? Why do you have to insist that they are "butch", and use that term as if it is an insult, anyway? Your language is so woman-hating and prejudiced.

Yes, I'm one of those knuckle-draggers who will seek out a woman who has spent time preparing herself for a career as a housewife and who wants that job - and will do so without apology.

good for you

Our future female feminazi physicians shouldn't presume to sit in judgement of that choice - or of the choices my future spouse will have made to put herself in the position to be that.

Again, your language is disgusting. Women who want to be physicians are femi-nazis? Do you know how horrifically offensive that term is? You truly disgust me.

 

[medstyle]

stinky, i think we're calling YOU a feminazi. Not anyone else.

Acheron and Co. are all reasonable people. Brain is a little weird, but i suspect she (maybe he) is kidding.

You're won't be happy until you see men breast feeding.

I guess its not a big leap of the imagination to imagine u are a butch lesbian. You know, the kind who becomes a lesbian because guys don't like her.

 

[stinkycheese]

stop quoting me incorrectly you freak of nature, stinky. When did i say i want a housewife? I have alot of posts in this discussion, none of them say that.

I didn't quote you incorrectly. If you don't like how I represented your statements, that's fine to point out. I'm sorry you can't do it without name-calling.

You're just mad because I don't change diapers and wash dishes.

It's too bad a grown man can't wash his own dishes or change a diaper. But there's a little more to my argument than that.

You wanna be a man? Its not all just watching football (which i don't do). There is alot of responsibility that comes with it. Not many CEOs are women...you ever wonder why? Is it all just sexism?

I dont think this portion of your post even deserves a response. It is so woman-hating, offensive, misguided, chauvinistic, and generally horrifying. I am repulsed by your ideas. You seem to believe that men are inherently different from women in terms of their capabilities. You also seem to think that women have no idea what it means to have the "responsibilities" traditionally held by men in society. I don't know what you are trying to say about watching football, and I don't really care. But the fact that you seem to think that there are more male CEO's than female because of some inherent gender difference in ability is pretty gross. Have you not ever heard of the glass ceiling? It is real and it exists. I cannot spend my time talking about the numerous factors that come into play regarding gender disparities in the workplace, both because I don't want to educate someone who will not listen, and also because this thread is actually starting to make me too distressed to continue posting. But if you had any sense of the sociological gender divide, you would not have posted this bit, and you would not be so inherently sexist.

Have you never seen a sitution where a man's or woman's steretypical characteristics were of value?

What does that mean? Did you know that most people define male characteristics and female characteristics completely differently, as opposed to on a spectrum? Meaning strength is attributed to men, emotionality to women. And did you know that this is false? Women have strength and men have emotions, etc, etc. Our attributes are on a continuum. Just because each gender has been "assigned" certain characteristics by society doesn't mean that only men can be strong and only women can be in touch with their emotions. So no, I don't see how the assignment of typical gender attributes is beneficial, since it negates the truth that all people have the same qualities, and that differences are over a range, not between categories.

Haha, i'd love to meet ur father. He must be a hell of a guy to inspire such confidence from you about men in general.

You're a real piece of work, aren't you? I don't see what my father has to do with this, since I am not man-hating, but since you wanted to know, he is a hell of a guy, thanks, and he raised me to believe that men who treat women with respect and as equals are the best kind. believe me, I have no issues with men who are not chauvinists, but since you're a sexist, you wouldn't understand the difference.

Stop quoting me incorrectly you degenerate pseudo feminist.

I would call you names, too, but my argument still holds water, so I don't need to do that.

 

[CarleneM]

in medstyle's defense (and i should know since i was the one arguing with him), he really was not saying he wanted to marry a housewife. he wanted to marry another doctor.

i'm not going to call anyone names and i'm sorry the discussion has degenerated to that.

 

[stinkycheese]

stinky, i think we're calling YOU a feminazi. Not anyone else.

That's sweet, thanks. And it shows what a gross person you are by using that term.

Acheron and Co. are all reasonable people. Brain is a little weird, but i suspect she (maybe he) is kidding.

Keep dreaming, she's not kidding.

You're won't be happy until you see men breast feeding.

Who's putting words in whose mouth now?

I guess its not a big leap of the imagination to imagine u are a butch lesbian.

I'm not offended by that accusation because I don't consider "butch lesbian" to be an insult. That's because I don't consider "butch lesbians" to be a lower life form than I. So nice try, but to me, that's about as insulting as if you had called me a "fashion-conscious hetero".

You know, the kind who becomes a lesbian because guys don't like her.

Lovely to see that you have such an enlightened understanding of sexuality. I've never met a lesbian who dates women because guys don't like her, but try that line out on one of your lesbian patients in the future, and see what she has to say about it. (Note: do this before you take her out back and shoot her).

I'm done here.

 

[visualwealth]

Why can't we state the obvious underlying theme.. That is, men generally do not like marrying female doctors because most of us (men and women) don't want to be with someone who is doing the same thing.....Most if not all of my friends will prefer to marry a woman that is 3-5 years younger in a different profession( or a content housewife) . That does not make all men docs male chauvinist..... In the case of female doctors most male doctors generally have more options when it comes to marriage. Specifically, it is common in our society for a man to marry a woman who makes less money because this provides less tension in the relationship( don&#8216;t jump on me I am just stating what I have observed) ....It is a common misconception that if a woman makes more money than the man she will have no reason to respect him... That is, she will emasculate him and make him her "bit*ch".... This induces fear in many men thus, because they have the option of not marrying such a woman they naturally jump at that opportunity.... The mistake that most feminist on this thread have assumed is that most men want a servile housewife. Most of the men on this thread simply want a family where certain roles are performed by the man and the woman... i personally feel that the high divorce rate in the west is due to the fact that men and women have stopped playing many of the old traditional roles in the family....

 

[Mike84]

if I may ask -- why the sudden change of heart? I have been following this thread and didn't you say that you wanted to marry a doctor a couple of days ago? What happened to make you change your mind? Is your new gf really really smokingly HOT?

Oh, the power of a beautiful, charming woman.

and I was the one who said i wanted to marry a doctor, and I don't want my life cooking, cleaning, or even watching the kids for most of the day!

 

[Mr. Seeds]

Stinky, you say this:

It's too bad a grown man can't wash his own dishes or change a diaper.

And then have the audacity to accuse someone else of this only two sentences later:

I dont think this portion of your post even deserves a response. It is so woman-hating, offensive, misguided, chauvinistic, and generally horrifying. I am repulsed by your ideas.

Do you realize how many derogatory remarks you have made of men in this thread? Or are you so blinded by your apparent hatred of them that it you just don't care?

 

[45408]

You seem to believe that men are inherently different from women in terms of their capabilities.

Women != Men

Should everyone be treated equally? Yes. Is everyone equal? No. Women should get equal opportunities, but I think it's pretty obvious that men and women have different capabilities and different thought processes. I don't even see why you're contesting that point.

 

[medstyle]

if I may ask -- why the sudden change of heart? I have been following this thread and didn't you say that you wanted to marry a doctor a couple of days ago? What happened to make you change your mind? Is your new gf really really smokingly HOT?

Oh, the power of a beautiful, charming woman.

she's not new...we've been dating for a couple months, but yeah she is really fine. My parents want me to marry a doctor because they love the idea of owning a pair of doctors or whatever...so i didn't try to take things so seriously.

But she's been back to japan for winter break, and i miss her alot. She's obviously japanese, which might make thinks problematic for my family, but she is so money, i dunno, they might have to deal with it.

She is soon gonna be an accountant, and she is willing to move whereever i go to school. What's not to love? I was just checking, we can order seafood online anywhere i go, haha. She is smart, but she cooks dinner whenever i don't feel like going out. she is independent, but lets me take her out and get her stuff all the time. A modern woman for me.

I like talking to feminists and stuff online and though i thought i was one before, I've been called a knuckledragger enough times to realize that whatever progress i thought i made was in vain. So F it, i am just gonna go back to what is easiest. I love a challenge every now and again, but I don't want to marry someone who is so insecure with her place that she is going to be competing for mine.

My parents hire people to keep the house and so forth, so i never thought it was a responsibility of mine or my wifes. But it would NEVER be my responsibiliity, thats for sure. My parents didnt send me to college to wash dishes. If my wife was a professional, she's above that too. Just hire someone and keep a service. What's the problem?

Anyway, why should I give up a good thing? I had plans before, but plans change. My reality is that I have a sweet, sexy, intelligent, feminine, pure, and fun girl. So i should be set. Thanks for making it clear, "ladies".

 

[lightnk102]

out of curiosity - how many of the women arguing are fresh out of college?

the reason i ask is this: when i first came out of school, I was EXTREMELY career oriented. I did not go to an elite private school and work my ass off just so I could clean house for some guy. After working in corporate america for two years (on the fast track to promotion), I came to a sinking realization - (whisper) feminism is overrated. Or at least, the most "popular" form of feminism is. At my most jaded point, I was thinking that if my husband wants to sit in the cubicle at work, I'll take daytime art classes at home while the kids sleep off the Nyquil.

The more I thought about it (and the more I felt guilty for letting down the feminist cause), the more I realized that the greatest change that feminists effected has nothing to do with careers - it has to do with mindsets. Men these days recognize that being a housewife is hard work. Women now have this wonderful thing called Choice. They can choose to work, or they can choose to stay at home. You can argue that women actually have it better. If men stay at home, they're called pansies by the other men. If women give up a career to stay at home, it's considered noble. Look at all the high-profile women who have made exactly that choice - the founder of Wired Magazine, that woman who was a Bush advisor, and countless others. If women struggle to a top career position, they're admired for having strength.

Unluckily - you can't have both a career and a family. It's erroneous to say that "men can have it all", because really - they can't do both either. If you're talking about "traditionalist" ideas, the male works and the female stays at home. But the male is also much more distanced from the family. The kids don't run to him when they fall down and scrape their knee, they don't call out "Daddy!" when they're scared and crying. It's a trade-off. You can't work and still be equally as loved as the parent who spends time with them. It's impossible for ANYONE to "have it all". The difference is that women seem to have a larger guilt complex about it . Whether that guilt is biological or societal is a different issue that does not need to be discussed here.

I'd go crazy from boredom without a career. I want a job where I feel useful, where I feel like I'm making a difference, and where at the end of the day, I can say I've helped person X Y and Z. That is why I love medicine. At the same time, I don't think I'll want to stay at the clinic if I have a darling two-year-old waiting for me at home. Nor do I consider myself to be a traitor to the feminist cause.

Just like there are more traditional men like medstyle, there are also going to be liberal men out there too. There are Howard Roarks out there for the Dagny's of the world. So ladies, don't worry about medstyle and his thoughts. It's highly unlikely that stinky cheese (or any of the other strident feminists out there) and medstyle will be tying the knot. Unless of course - this is one of those relationships where the hatred suddenly explodes into undying passion for each other.

 

[MedicineBird]

she's not new...we've been dating for a couple months, but yeah she is really fine. My parents want me to marry a doctor because they love the idea of owning a pair of doctors or whatever...so i didn't try to take things so seriously.

But she's been back to japan for winter break, and i miss her alot. She's obviously japanese, which might make thinks problematic for my family, but she is so money, i dunno, they might have to deal with it.

She is soon gonna be an accountant, and she is willing to move whereever i go to school. What's not to love? I was just checking, we can order seafood online anywhere i go, haha. She is smart, but she cooks dinner whenever i don't feel like going out. she is independent, but lets me take her out and get her stuff all the time. A modern woman for me.

I like talking to feminists and stuff online and though i thought i was one before, I've been called a knuckledragger enough times to realize that whatever progress i thought i made was in vain. So F it, i am just gonna go back to what is easiest. I love a challenge every now and again, but I don't want to marry someone who is so insecure with her place that she is going to be competing for mine.

My parents hire people to keep the house and so forth, so i never thought it was a responsibility of mine or my wifes. But it would NEVER be my responsibiliity, thats for sure. My parents didnt send me to college to wash dishes. If my wife was a professional, she's above that too. Just hire someone and keep a service. What's the problem?

Anyway, why should I give up a good thing? I had plans before, but plans change. My reality is that I have a sweet, sexy, intelligent, feminine, pure, and fun girl. So i should be set. Thanks for making it clear, "ladies".

wow! a whole couple of months?! that definitely means wedding bells. So did youpick up this -as you call her- "pure" girl using your patented comforting technique?

I know I am being snide but I just really grimace at your silver spoon fed perception of the world.

 

[CarleneM]

hey, i'm out of college for 1.5 years and am one of the women arguing although i'm arguing against many of the women and agree completely with what you've said below. well put!

out of curiosity - how many of the women arguing are fresh out of college?

the reason i ask is this: when i first came out of school, I was EXTREMELY career oriented. I did not go to an elite private school and work my ass off just so I could clean house for some guy. After working in corporate america for two years (on the fast track to promotion), I came to a sinking realization - (whisper) feminism is overrated. Or at least, the most "popular" form of feminism is. At my most jaded point, I was thinking that if my husband wants to sit in the cubicle at work, I'll take daytime art classes at home while the kids sleep off the Nyquil.

The more I thought about it (and the more I felt guilty for letting down the feminist cause), the more I realized that the greatest change that feminists effected has nothing to do with careers - it has to do with mindsets. Men these days recognize that being a housewife is hard work. Women now have this wonderful thing called Choice. They can choose to work, or they can choose to stay at home. You can argue that women actually have it better. If men stay at home, they're called pansies by the other men. If women give up a career to stay at home, it's considered noble. Look at all the high-profile women who have made exactly that choice - the founder of Wired Magazine, that woman who was a Bush advisor, and countless others. If women struggle to a top career position, they're admired for having strength.

Unluckily - you can't have both a career and a family. It's erroneous to say that "men can have it all", because really - they can't do both either. If you're talking about "traditionalist" ideas, the male works and the female stays at home. But the male is also much more distanced from the family. The kids don't run to him when they fall down and scrape their knee, they don't call out "Daddy!" when they're scared and crying. It's a trade-off. You can't work and still be equally as loved as the parent who spends time with them. It's impossible for ANYONE to "have it all". The difference is that women seem to have a larger guilt complex about it . Whether that guilt is biological or societal is a different issue that does not need to be discussed here.

I'd go crazy from boredom without a career. I want a job where I feel useful, where I feel like I'm making a difference, and where at the end of the day, I can say I've helped person X Y and Z. That is why I love medicine. At the same time, I don't think I'll want to stay at the clinic if I have a darling two-year-old waiting for me at home. Nor do I consider myself to be a traitor to the feminist cause.

Just like there are more traditional men like medstyle, there are also going to be liberal men out there too. There are Howard Roarks out there for the Dagny's of the world. So ladies, don't worry about medstyle and his thoughts. It's highly unlikely that stinky cheese (or any of the other strident feminists out there) and medstyle will be tying the knot. Unless of course - this is one of those relationships where the hatred suddenly explodes into undying passion for each other.

 

[pushkin]

The problem occurs when women make this decision and then whine about the opportunity cost of making it (ie, "Oh no! I've spent my entire life becoming a butch intellectual! Now I can't get a successful man!"). Choices have consequences and we have to be prepared to deal with the consequences of those choices when we make them.

Sorry, I did not read the previous 9 pages of this thread, so if I'm out of context I'm sorry, but I just wanted to comment on this. Anyway, you sound like you're full of it. What's really going on, and what is the true tragedy of our era, is that while career opportunities for women have improved, the quality of the male dating pool unfortunately has not. These "successful" guys you're talking about--they're rare, just as are charm and wit! When they come along, believe me, we notice. And pleeeze don't tell me you think someone's hot stuff just because they carry a big fat pager around all day or have some other upper middle class job, or because they post their big fat thoughts on an internet forum. It is hardly a difficult choice to pass up on such an "opportunity", and the "consequences" may not be as grim as you think.

 

[medstyle]

wow! a whole couple of months?! that definitely means wedding bells. So did youpick up this -as you call her- "pure" girl using your patented comforting technique?

I know I am being snide but I just really grimace at your silver spoon fed perception of the world.

i met her at a library.

thanks for your comment about our relationship. I've dated many girls and this is clearly the best relationship i've ever been in. She is very happy as well, judging by the emails, photos, and phone calls i recieve daily. I was foolish for not thinking wedding bells before. She's perfect for me, thanks for helping me realize it. To think, i thought I'd be better served by a woman like you...

My parents worked pretty damn hard to put this silver spoon in my mouth, and I will work hard to ensure my kid's will have it too. Maybe you'd be surprised at how hard men do work for their families and how much they sacrifice. Sometimes working at a factory while mom stays out of the coal mines is not a power trip. Love and idealism don't buy anything but warm feelings.

I hope you are warm, at least.

 

[cooldreams]

i would like to marry a doctor because then i think it would be a lot easier to be even and fair on stuff we do, and how we perceive each other - both consciously and subconsciously.

 

[USAF_Dentman]

Why can't we state the obvious underlying theme.. That is, men generally do not like marrying female doctors because most of us (men and women) don't want to be with someone who is doing the same thing.....Most if not all of my friends will prefer to marry a woman that is 3-5 years younger in a different profession( or a content housewife) . That does not make all men docs male chauvinist..... In the case of female doctors most male doctors generally have more options when it comes to marriage. Specifically, it is common in our society for a man to marry a woman who makes less money because this provides less tension in the relationship( don‘t jump on me I am just stating what I have observed) ....It is a common misconception that if a woman makes more money than the man she will have no reason to respect him... That is, she will emasculate him and make him her “bit*ch”.... This induces fear in many men thus, because they have the option of not marrying such a woman they naturally jump at that opportunity.... The mistake that most feminist on this thread have assumed is that most men want a servile housewife. Most of the men on this thread simply want a family where certain roles are performed by the man and the woman... i personally feel that the high divorce rate in the west is due to the fact that men and women have stopped playing many of the old traditional roles in the family....

Exactly.....Its the same reason Oprah isnt married

 

[Brain]

i personally feel that the high divorce rate in the west is due to the fact that men and women have stopped playing many of the old traditional roles in the family....

Consider this: divorce is very common in our society because it is so accessible and is considered to be a valid option. There are actually places where you can have a drive-through divorce. You may have a point in that many men have issues with the relatively new roles of women as capable, independent, and (gasp) thinking beings. As women become more established in the workforce and there is an abandonment of sexist "gender roles", we may see the divorce rate decline after some time.

 

[MedicineBird]

i met her at a library.

thanks for your comment about our relationship. I've dated many girls and this is clearly the best relationship i've ever been in. She is very happy as well, judging by the emails, photos, and phone calls i recieve daily. I was foolish for not thinking wedding bells before. She's perfect for me, thanks for helping me realize it. To think, i thought I'd be better served by a woman like you...

My parents worked pretty damn hard to put this silver spoon in my mouth, and I will work hard to ensure my kid's will have it too. Maybe you'd be surprised at how hard men do work for their families and how much they sacrifice. Sometimes working at a factory while mom stays out of the coal mines is not a power trip. Love and idealism don't buy anything but warm feelings.

I hope you are warm, at least.

Gee golly Mr. MedStyle -- I guess it's a good thing I didn't propose to ya then, huh?

You are welcome to my comments on your relationship. Additionally, I hope karma stops in its tracks for you and that your newest love doesn't get sick of you and go looking for "relief" as you call it from a better match.

1st: all I was saying is I think you have a lot more to learn about life than you may realize. If by some miracle you do get to stay in a happily ever after world then more power to you -- really. Husbands and wives should love eachother and their children and be able to meet needs and have needs met by loved ones.

2nd: there is a lot more to a relationship than love and idealism. They buy warm feelings for a few months (called the honeymoon period) but they are not enough to build a rock solid marriage on. The tidal waves and even small waves of life inevitably hit and the idealism does nothing but create a false sense of security and breeds denial.

3rd: Trust me -- I know about hard work. It seems (note the word SEEMS) you do not. I do want my future children to have their needs met and not to have to want for the essentials but they will definitely learn to work. I appreciate a man who is a good provider all around for his family. In fact I actually think it is sexy -- yes sexy.

oh and before you start pissing in my cheerios, you may want to go back to my first post where I talked about the need for a woman to retain a certain amount of feminity and respect for her partner on this path to the top of the mountain. I do believe in male and female roles and also equality. There are some things that in GENERAL men do better than women and VV. It is all about having a true partnership.

 

[Ypo.]

God forbid that somebody else have different goals in life than you. What's it to you? I have a girlfriend that would like to work for several years and then become a stay-at-home mom, and I'd like to be the primary breadwinner. My parents did it that way, and I feel that it was a worthwhile practice. You've got a lot of nerve to say that I should be embarrassed to feel this way.


You REALLY have a stick up your ass. What I said was perfectly reasonable. Why is the phrase even sexist? I don't want to marry someone who is conceited about her own intelligence. Confident? Yes. Intelligent? Yes. Conceited? Hell no.

It was easy to read your thread that way. You were saying you wanted a woman who was content to sit home with the kids and let you be the primary breadwinner and 'wear the pants'. Then you went on to say that you didn't want a woman who "put on airs". So, one can see where the conclusion might be drawn.

If you want to be the one making money while your wifie stays at home with the kids, thats fine, but i think what we're saying is that its more important that that idea is equally OK by your wife (which you say it is).

 

[Ypo.]

haha, props on the quote. You must really hate that guy.

But seriously, all guys who want their wife to take a primary role in child rearing are not stuck in past unevolved sexist animals. I love this quote: "My only stipulation for my future husband is that he must get neutered.". Come on, that is femnazi. Only stipulation? Man, that is harsh. Especially because a marriage like that is gonna last, i dunno, 3 years tops. She can't take BC like the rest of the world?

I think marriage is all about give and take, not complete equality. Because men and women ARE different, and not equal. A man and woman deserve the same rights, but one should not conclude they are exactly the same. Sure, SOME women are as strong as SOME men, and SOME men are as good caregivers as SOME women, but I think biology has lent some hand in who we are.

I guess some women don't want a man that they will "need" and depend on, just a partner to compliment their lives. Alot of people are doing this, long term dating thing, without marriage and children. Thats fine. If you can manage to get married doing somtehing like this, that great too.

But those of us who still want to get married, and raise kids, and have a nice happy family, we're not all *****s. I mean, what's the point of having money if you're only spending it on yourself? What are you going to do with your free time? Being married at a reasonably young age, eventually having kids, and building a life around a family is something lots of people want to do. Some of us, gasp, look forward to it. (at least the married part...i am only 22, sheesh).

And if a man wants his wife to stay home, i am sure she will know this before the marriage. Perhaps she has more fun raising kids than worrying about having a job? No man should be ashamed of having a wife stay home. And if a man wants to do the same for his wife, more power to him. However, this case seems to be more rare, as I doubt many women are looking for a man like that. I am sure some are, and there are plenty of people who are more than willing to be househusbands.

But you won't find them in med school. And i dunno, this sex role reversal stuff is all cool in theory, but i don't see it much. I basically see that its basically the alpha male that the women are attracted to. When I see guys who insist YOU pay for the date get the girl, I'll grab my ankles and scream "uncle no!".

want to get personal?: I've helped my share of women relieve some frustration about dating a "loser". Basically, its the same story: he's boring, not cool, not funny, not fun, not motivated, not put together...leads them to seek luvin' elsewhere. I, sadly and reluctantly comply (i was a *****...what can i say). And the girls that like, they like me for those reasons too.

I am not looking for a bimbo. I want a super sexy smart, intellectual, funny, cool chick to date and hopefully marry. I want her to be equal with me as far as career stuff, if she can do better more power to her...but she'd better have some old fashioned wife/ mothering capability too. I don't need her scrubbing floors or baking pies, but I am a man expect to be treated as such. Of course, you don't have to like it, but I think most guys who are high achievers are like this. Hopefully, i hope i can find a woman that fits my needs, and you can find a person that fits urs.

Your sleazy posts are making me sick.

Get this through your thick skull....we don't want to hear about your scummy sexual conqeusts. And we really don't care about what you are looking for in a woman-because that is not the topic of this thread.

Gross!!!!

 

[Ypo.]

stinkycheese...you did not grasp what i was i was attempting to say and instead skewed it completely. Do not be concerned: no one will ever mistake you for an intellectual in any capacity.

Its freezing outside, but I am sure its no colder than your lonely heart.

I think you women are looking for "partners", not husbands. Thats cool, but I think its a sad day when women's progress means replacing family with a career. Most men actually maintain a career for their family.

First of all, medsleeze, don't be dissin' stinkycheese.

Why don't you quit 'thinking'-its painful to watch. Seriously, you already admitted you don't know what women want, but here's a hint- you can't really generalize what 'women' want. We're all different, just like you men are.

A spouse IS a partner, last time I checked. And why can't a woman maintain a career for her family while her husband stays home and watches the kids?

You are free to have whatever opinion you want, and the only people it should really matter to are YOU and your significant other (and your kids, should you have any).

Oh yeah, and to Carlene- you seem to be agreeing with a prior statement that 'women can't have a career and a family'-I think you might need to send a newsletter to my mom-because she isn't aware of this yet. She works full time as a family practice doctor, and has 5 kids, 3 of which are living at home with her.

 

[Ypo.]

I'm going to hazard a guess that the correlation is not between marriage and a decreased lifespan, but between childbirth and a decreased lifespan, as it takes a toll on the body. Even still, women don't seem to be making out too badly on that front, as they still live longer than men.

Hazard again. Even childless couples show this difference in span of life.

 

[MEG@COOL]

I read this somewhere. Is this true. This seems a bit high. Are u guys intimidated by girls smarter than you?

Im intimidated by girls uglier than me.

 

[45408]

Hazard again. Even childless couples show this difference in span of life.

It's now irrelevant. You guys are arguing my rebuttal of a false claim. None of the studies posted said that marriage shortens a woman's life, which is what I was saying sounded false.

 

[CarleneM]

Oh yeah, and to Carlene- you seem to be agreeing with a prior statement that 'women can't have a career and a family'-I think you might need to send a newsletter to my mom-because she isn't aware of this yet. She works full time as a family practice doctor, and has 5 kids, 3 of which are living at home with her.

no i don't know how you got that impression and its a little shocking you'd jump to that extreme conclusion from my posts. i want a career and a family (1-2 kids). i don't want to be a housewife. i was disagreeing with someone who said that each partner in a relationship needed to do an equal part of the childrearing, like with each person having a part-time job or something i didn't see as being realistic. i can't be a housewife and have a fulltime career but i can certainly have kids (although i suppose i could essentially be a housewife for a bit if i took some time off when my children were very young). but you are definitely mistaken and i never said that women couldn't have a career and family. that's totally absurd! my parents are both teachers and my mom worked full time throughout my childhood, besides maternity leave. my nana took care of me during the day until i was school age. my mom was and is an awesome mother and has a career. got it?

 

[QofQuimica]

As another older student reading this thread, I would like to point out something else that might not have been considered by some of our younger posters: life is a series of compromises among priorities. These priorities will frequently conflict, and various points in our lives will require difficult choices to be made between different priorities. Most people have similar wants out of life: love/family, fulfillment/career, sufficient finances, and health. However, there are different ways of prioritizing these wants, and the way that each of us chooses to do this will affect what we believe to be the "correct" way to live our lives.

Many people in their early twenties are largely concerned with career/personal fulfillment or self-actualization. This is particularly true for a group of people like ourselves (pre-meds), who are more highly educated and intellectual than average. Please understand that I am not in any way deprecating this prioritization; I was (and continue to be) of this mind bent myself. However, not everyone follows our kind of path in life, and we would do better to understand our sisters who choose to be housewives rather than brand them as sell-outs. I would like to share my own personal story in hopes of helping some of you understand why some women (and some men) might choose to be housewives/husbands rather than have careers of their own.

My mom is a woman who didn't go to college because her dad didn't want her to; he had told her that she should get married instead. She lived at home until she did subsequently get married to my father, who is a doctor. She became a housewife at that time. All while I was growing up, I constantly heard from her that she regretted not having attended college, and she instilled in me the idea that I WOULD be attending college, even before I knew what college even was. I was the first woman on either side of my family to earn a college degree, let alone go beyond that.

When I was 20, I read Betty Friedan's "The Feminine Mystique", which someone else already brought up; this book describes the uncontented and unfulfilled lives of mid-twentieth century suburban housewives. Reading that book made me very angry, because I thought that it described my own mother PERFECTLY. I confronted my mom about this, and basically accused her of being a sellout to the entire female gender by settling for being "just" a housewife. This naturally caused a rather large blow-out.

My mom and I went through a period of a few years where we did not speak very much (not only because of this argument, but it was one of many like it). When we finally did talk about that discussion many years later, she explained to me that she had decided to be a stay-at-home mom because her own mom had worked, and was not around very much. My mom had always felt that she had missed out by not having her mother at home, and she did not want her own children to grow up that way. She DID have to sacrifice having the kind of a career that my dad had, but since making a family like the one she always wished she had had herself was her top priority, she didn't see it as the sacrifice that I did.

Now, at 30, I look at my mom's life and I feel supremely grateful to her. She didn't have a career because she felt that my sister and I were the most important priority in her life, and she did what she felt was necessary to make what was in her mind the best family possible. She is an extremely selfless person, and I have come to admire her for it, because I am not willing to follow that path, and that is one of the reasons that I do not plan to have children. Mom is the person who is always ready to talk, always interested in what I'm doing (maybe too much, but that's a whole 'nother story!). She is the person who will sit there for hours while I explain my dissertation work, even though she has never studied a day of chemistry in her entire life. Interestingly, I rarely discuss any of it with my dad, although it would seem more logical to do so, since he's the one who has the medical degree and studied organic chemistry. But it was always Mom who wanted to hear about what I did at school all of these years. Dad and I mostly talk about practicing medicine.

With all of this talk about women's rights and men's chauvinism, it is easy to lose sight of the larger picture. Having children changes the ordering of one's priorities (or at least it ought to!); a parent no longer has the luxury to think of him/herself first. I would like to end this rather long post by saying that although I have chosen a different top priority than my mom did, I have come to recognize that it was her choice to stay home that in large part made my choice not to possible.

 

[!dr_nick!]

I want to be a house husband.

 

[Old_Mil]

no i don't know how you got that impression and its a little shocking you'd jump to that extreme conclusion from my posts. i want a career and a family (1-2 kids). i don't want to be a housewife...i can't be a housewife and have a fulltime career but i can certainly have kids (although i suppose i could essentially be a housewife for a bit if i took some time off when my children were very young). but you are definitely mistaken and i never said that women couldn't have a career and family. that's totally absurd! my parents are both teachers and my mom worked full time throughout my childhood, besides maternity leave. my nana took care of me during the day until i was school age. my mom was and is an awesome mother and has a career. got it?

So you're willing to have children, and take a little time off from your career to spend time with them when they are young, but after they are housebroken you are willing to outsource parenthood to a school system and a minimum wage worker with a high school diploma at a day-care center? Ok.