4.0/40 rejected everywhere :o( Not sure what to do?

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flowerpower123

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Hi all... just received another rejection... not sure what is wrong with me ... certainly there's no such thing as a sure bet. But I have ~4.0 with 40MCAT. Not sure what to do next... I'll re-apply, but I'm not sure what's wrong... I thought my interviews went well? Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks!

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I thought I had some safer school... it was odd because my "safety schools" were all the first to reject me...and the top tier schools were the only schools that extended II
 
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It looks like you need to improve your interview skills. Are you waiting on any more schools?
 
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Wow, the whole system is messed. If you're scores are low, you're rejected, if you scores are high, you're rejected.
 
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I thought I had some safer school... it was odd because my "safety schools" were all the first to reject me...and the top tier schools were the only schools that extended II
Do you mind posting your school list?

Did you apply early?

Weak LOR's?

I'm assuming you don't have IA's since you did interview at a couple places...
 
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I have a feeling this is a case of not a broad enough app coupled with poor interviewing skills.
I'm thinking the same. Although I did meet a student with similar stats who applied pretty late and got a major reality check.
 
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I thought I had some safer school... it was odd because my "safety schools" were all the first to reject me...and the top tier schools were the only schools that extended II

My cycle was exactly the same as yours.

Some questions: Are you from CA? Are you a trad applicant? This was true for me, and I think that both are big demerits, definitely more than I thought at the beginning of the cycle. Reasons are that CA in-states can't be treated like those in other states. Most of the UCs don't offer in-state preference, and the ones that do have specific primary care needs/missions or ties to the specific region. Also being a trad applicant with high stats is bad, because the top places like people who take gap years. Not so much the case for mid-tier and low-tier medical schools, unfortunately, but those are the ones that rejected both you and me, I believe, partially because they didn't think we would go. So you get stuck with IIs at places like Yale, where having something super special to stand out becomes really important.

It sucks, and you don't know how much I feel for you. I can't say for sure what went wrong - it might be something like interview skills, like someone mentioned earlier, but you might not have done anything wrong either.
 
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Sorry to hear that. What do you think were your shortcomings? Most probable reasons IMO include top-heavy application cycle and perhaps late submission. You got interviews at some really top places, which makes me think that your recommendations package, ECs, and essays, were sufficiently worthy. Ironically, your very high stats may have been your undoing: the "safety schools" figured you would never matriculate if accepted, whereas the really top schools aren't a guarantee for anyone. For reapplication strategy, it appears the most effective thing to do is to apply to a greater number of schools.
 
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Chances are with your high degree of achievements, only high tier schools would give you any interview considerations. Schools pick students who are likely to go to their school, as no one wants to be used as a "back-up" piece of mind for a student that's eventually going to matriculate into Harvard med. From the viewpoint of a lower-tier school, which you may be in the 99th percentile for, they know that you aren't going to choose their school (or if you do, it is merely because you had no other choice), so why would they waste an interview spot on you when there are other potentially qualified applicants that are just dying to get in, albeit with lesser achievements? Which is why the most dangerous zone to be in is the high-mid tier application: not good enough to enter the top institutions, but the lower tier ones won't even consider you because they think you won't go to their school anyways.

I was met with a somewhat similar circumstance this cycle when I applied to a bunch of lower tier schools for safety before I got my MCAT scores back, and it turned out to be much higher than expected. Got into my first choice, but not a single II from any one of my "back-up" schools. It's a twisted system we live in, but not entirely unfathomable.
 
I thought I had good letters, as my letter writers knew me well and seemed eager to write me letters. Plus, one of my interviewers said I had "great recommendations"
I'm eager to re-apply because I know medicine is my calling... but it's slightly discouraging because I don't know what's wrong with me and I don't know what to change so that I might have a better outcome next year.
Applied pretty early
 
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I'm not sure what went wrong... I think my MMI was probably less than amazing, but my interviews at the other schools I thought went quite well.. one of my interviewers said as I was leaving "great interview" but I was rejected nonetheless
 
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Wake Forest - rejected preII
Dartmouth - rejected preII
Emory - rejected preII
Duke - rejected postII
Cornell - rejected preII
Baylor - rejected preII
Vanderbilt - rejected preII
Northwestern - rejected preII
Washington - rejected pre - secondary
UNC Chapel Hill - rejected pre - secondary
Johns Hopkins - rejected preII
Georgetown - rejectected preII
Yale - rejected postII
Harvard - rejected postII
Stanford - silence

:( I thougth I had good letters, as my letter writers knew me well and seemed eager to write me letters. Plus, one of my interviewers said I had "great recommendations"
I'm eager to re-apply because I know medicine is my calling... but it's slightly dicouraging because I don't know what's wrong with me and I don't know what to change so that I might have a better outcome next year.
Applied pretty early
You have zero real safety schools. You should have had a wider mix of mid-tier and a few low-tier schools, as numbers aren't everything and, while you may think you have astounding interview skills, you might actually only interview well enough to land a low or mid tier spot.

When reapplying, don't go so top heavy and you should be fine.
 
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I'm not sure what went wrong... I think my MMI at Duke was probably less than amazing, but my interviews at the other schools I thought went quite well.. one of my interviewers said as I was leaving "great interview" but I was rejected nonetheless
You need to have the best of the best level of interviewing skills to be the applicant they take into a top tier programming. Great might not have been good enough, as the other applicants might have interviewed a step above you.
 
Why don't you call and ask the admissions offices at a few of those schools if they're willing to discuss your app and shortcomings? My guess would be interviewing skills, but I'm just a random internet onlooker procrastinating at work. I interviewed at a school this cycle and the director told a story of a student with a 4.0/42 who they rejected (and was rejected by all 15 schools he/she applied to) because their interviewers felt that they didn't have the social skills for medicine.
 
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Wake Forest - rejected preII
Dartmouth - rejected preII
Emory - rejected preII
Duke - rejected postII
Cornell - rejected preII
Baylor - rejected preII
Vanderbilt - rejected preII
Northwestern - rejected preII
Washington - rejected pre - secondary
UNC Chapel Hill - rejected pre - secondary
Johns Hopkins - rejected preII
Georgetown - rejectected preII
Yale - rejected postII
Harvard - rejected postII
Stanford - silence

:( I thougth I had good letters, as my letter writers knew me well and seemed eager to write me letters. Plus, one of my interviewers said I had "great recommendations"
I'm eager to re-apply because I know medicine is my calling... but it's slightly dicouraging because I don't know what's wrong with me and I don't know what to change so that I might have a better outcome next year.
Applied pretty early
I'm very sorry. To be honest this process is very unpredictable but if medicine is your calling you should absolutely reapply, just with an even better application. I'm not sure exactly where you went wrong but we'll figure it out.

Did you have any clinical volunteering?
Did you have anyone check your personal statement for you?

You will need to apply to more schools next time. If your school has options to participate in mock interviews, do take advantage of it.

@gyngyn , @Goro, @LizzyM , your thoughts?
 
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When did you apply? as in send in the primary and secondaries? Also I disagree wtih others saying to apply to more safety schools. I think your school list was good and with those stats you want to go to a top med school rather than a middle or third tier.
 
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You need to have the best of the best level of interviewing skills to be the applicant they take into a top tier programming. Great might not have been good enough, as the other applicants might have interviewed a step above you.

Definitely not the case... but I didn't think they were bad

Ok, I'm guessing you are from NC, not CA then.

First, what Mad Jack said about top schools is true - a medium level interview won't cut it. These places interview like 1000 people and have 25% post-interview acceptance rates. You need to dazzle them. Doing nothing wrong lands you in the 25-75% zone: i.e. the waitlist.

Second, I don't necessarily agree about Mad Jack's "broadening your list" thing - entirely. 15 is super risky, but adding low-tier schools that are pretty sensitive about yield and what not would not help you. You might want to add Brody, since you are from NC, as well as more schools within your range across the country (Chicago and Michigan come to mind, as examples).

Third, I'll ask again, are you a traditional applicant?
 
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Wake Forest - rejected preII
Dartmouth - rejected preII
Emory - rejected preII
Duke - rejected postII
Cornell - rejected preII
Baylor - rejected preII
Vanderbilt - rejected preII
Northwestern - rejected preII
Washington - rejected pre - secondary
UNC Chapel Hill - rejected pre - secondary
Johns Hopkins - rejected preII
Georgetown - rejectected preII
Yale - rejected postII
Harvard - rejected postII
Stanford - silence

:( I thougth I had good letters, as my letter writers knew me well and seemed eager to write me letters. Plus, one of my interviewers said I had "great recommendations"
I'm eager to re-apply because I know medicine is my calling... but it's slightly dicouraging because I don't know what's wrong with me and I don't know what to change so that I might have a better outcome next year.
Applied pretty early
So sorry. If you are "young" (right out of school), you are competing against folks with 2-3 years of research/other experiences after Undergrad. The lesson is that the bar is getting higher each year. If you look at the average age of med students at top tier schools, it is 24-25. If you are a fresh 22 year old, it is hard to hold your own in the pile of super stars who are quite a bit older. Take a couple of years off, beef up your life experience, and folks will be falling all over themselves for you.

FWIW, I would add University of Michigan, University of Chicago, UCSF, they love folks like you if you have a strong research portfolio. Good Luck
 
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I actually wonder if it could have something to do with your essays, maybe even your personal statement. I'm no expert, but with those stats I would have expected a lot more interview invitations! That you had two pre-secondary rejections is surprising.

Edit: assumed you meant WashU but if it was UW, a pre-secondary rejection is less surprising
 
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I guess my biggest concern is what to do moving forward...
I have several years of volunteering / shadowing / and research...
In the interim year, I'm not sure what would be best... I could get a masters? I could look for more research opportunities... I'm still volunteering and working on a wellness program I started... I just don't what would be most helpful...
 
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Concur. OP, when did you get your secondaries in?

What are your ECs like?????????

There may be a red flag in the LORs. Also, OP, most interviewees are very poor judges of how their interviews went. Interviewers go out of their way to be polite.


I have a feeling this is a case of not a broad enough app coupled with poor interviewing skills.
 
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I agree with comment above from @ZymurgySurfer, try to contact the admissions offices to see if they are willing to discuss what may have gone wrong with your application/interviews--if they offer feedback, listen and re-assess, if not then nothing lost.

***Also applying early would be within the 2-3 weeks after AMCAS opens and getting secondaries in stat, like within a week at the very most.
 
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I think you should call the schools where you interviewed at and ask them what you can do to improve your applications. Some school may talk and others will not but no harm in trying.

^beat me to it.
 
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So now moving forward... I had 6 LORs, all from whom I thought were definitely my advocates, and I think it would be slightly inappropriate to ask if they said anything that may reflect poorly upon my application...
 
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I'm also a few years out of college, spent over a year researching and volunteering, also went back to school to take a few graduate courses
Wow, I guess you have the life experience. Just bad luck. These top tiers schools usually have folks with significant research experience and research productivity (e.g. publications). Guess I would continue your work and volunteering, and try again next year. You did things right, but sometimes the chips don't fall they way the statistics project. Add a few more schools next time (Pittsburgh, Rochester,Emory), as see how it goes. I'm out of ideas, as I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this outcome. My sympathy is with you.
 
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I agree with comment above from @ZymurgySurfer, try to contact the admissions offices to see if they are willing to discuss what may have gone wrong with your application/interviews--if they offer feedback, listen and re-assess, if not then nothing lost.

***Also applying early would be within the 2-3 weeks after AMCAS opens and getting secondaries in stat, like within a week at the very most.
That sounds like a good plan. I already sent them e-mails... complete silence... but maybe they would be more responsive to phone calls...
 
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Wow, I guess you have the life experience. Just bad luck. These top tiers schools usually have folks with significant research experience and research productivity (e.g. publications). Guess I would continue your work and volunteering, and try again next year. You did things right, but sometimes the chips don't fall they way the statistics project. Add a few more schools next time (Pittsburgh, Rochester,Emory), as see how it goes. I'm out of ideas, as I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this outcome. My sympathy is with you.

I agree with Rainbow...I'm a bit at a loss, I'm really sorry for you :(.
I think asking some schools and explaining your situation for feedback...might be a good idea too.
 
Concur. OP, when did you get your secondaries in?

What are your ECs like?????????

There may be a red flag in the LORs. Also, OP, most interviewees are very poor judges of how their interviews went. Interviewers go out of their way to be polite.

My ECs were pretty good I had years of research and volunteering
 
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madness.gif

Don't know what to tell you.
 
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EDIT: I am putting this advice on ice pending OP's further explanation regarding the MCAT and being a reapplicant, as well as general sense of "there's more to this."

Hi @flowerpower123, I am sorry about how things have gone for you. While there are things you could have done better, nothing jumps out as a fatal flaw. @Willy38 said it best.

From our vantage point, your stats and extracurriculars show you to be more than qualified for medical school. And if you had posted your school list before the cycle started, I think we would have recommended some significant changes, but not necessarily an overhaul if your application is that strong.

You're doing it right by getting our feedback and planning to reapply. You have already identified a few things you will do differently. Apply to a longer list of schools, after careful research, including many where you will not be a reapplicant. Rewrite your essays. Follow up with admissions offices (though they are unlikely to say much). Reach out to your LOR writers; they will at least wonder how you are doing, though I doubt they were a major issue. The only thing I wonder about is whether you had a committee letter. At some undergrads these can be very important. Does your school typically provide one, did you get one, and do you think it was positive?

Finally, regarding interviews. Your only interviews were at very competitive places, so rejections are not a huge red flag. I don't agree that a top school is looking for their interviewees to "wow" them significantly more than most schools are. The cardinal rule is the same everywhere: Be yourself. More interview preparation should be part of your plan, but I would caution you not to strain to present any particular kind of impression. Given the number of pre-interview rejections you received, I think that whatever held you back has at least some component on paper, not just in person, and ameliorating it should help your post-interview results as well.
 
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what you have experienced is my worst fear, I'm sorry. I'm sure you are extremely bright, and deserve to be at a top school, but next time around, I would apply to a LOT of mid tier schools. I don't know if that's going to hurt your pride, not being able to attend a top university when you have the aptitude to do so, but if you apply to schools that aren't quite as prestigious, you will be better off I think
 
Wow, the whole system is messed. If you're scores are low, you're rejected, if you scores are high, you're rejected.

So sorry. If you are "young" (right out of school), you are competing against folks with 2-3 years of research/other experiences after Undergrad. The lesson is that the bar is getting higher each year. If you look at the average age of med students at top tier schools, it is 24-25. If you are a fresh 22 year old, it is hard to hold your own in the pile of super stars who are quite a bit older. Take a couple of years off, beef up your life experience, and folks will be falling all over themselves for you.

FWIW, I would add University of Michigan, University of Chicago, UCSF, they love folks like you if you have a strong research portfolio. Good Luck

Wow, I guess you have the life experience. Just bad luck. These top tiers schools usually have folks with significant research experience and research productivity (e.g. publications). Guess I would continue your work and volunteering, and try again next year. You did things right, but sometimes the chips don't fall they way the statistics project. Add a few more schools next time (Pittsburgh, Rochester,Emory), as see how it goes. I'm out of ideas, as I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this outcome. My sympathy is with you.

Okay, people need to understand this, because it seems pervasive... Yes, medical schools are more competitive than they ever have been. People are better prepared for the application season than they ever have been. But, to somehow say that a 4.0/40 got "unlucky" or that there were too many non-trads in the cycle so his ECs/academics didn't stack up well. There may be a certain amount of 'luck' when getting into one particular school, but in the aggregate, there really is very little 'luck' involved with this process. If you get rejected from multiple (many) places, there is something wrong with your application, pure and simple. And no, what is wrong is NOT that your "scores are too good" or "Your ECs at 22 can't possibly stack up against older applicants."

From a logic and reasoning standpoint, it is FAR more likely based on this the listed schools that you got LUCKY to interview at Harvard/Yale/Duke. The exact right person read your application, you had a single person that said, "I want to look at this guy deeper." Given the distribution of schools, I would hazard a guess that you peaked interest with whatever you did with your research. Then after you gave them more information, (secondaries/interviews), they said, nope, not worth it. You were rejected pre-secondary at a ton of schools. With your stats and really any random, some semblance of cohesion in your ECs, you should have gotten secondaries from every single one of those schools. It costs schools next to nothing to send a secondary. In general, the only people we DON'T send them to are people that we have zero chance of admitting. Having been on one of those admissions committees I can pretty much guarantee that. Yes, having a more 'well rounded' application list is a good idea, but after working with half a dozen people with scores like yours and "good ECs", it isn't that crazy of a list. I'll be honest, I don't think that having applied to more schools would have helped you. Maybe you would have gotten lucky and someone would have wanted a score booster in their class, but...

I'll be blunt. There is something fundamentally wrong with your application and we can't help you on here like this. There is something that is missing, maybe you've omitted it here, or worse, you simply don't know.

Institutional Actions
Criminal background check
Bad letters of recommendation (pretty unlikely to get rejected pre-secondary)
Pathologic personal statement (pretty unlikely to get rejected pre-secondary)
Vast over estimation of how "good" your ECs are and/or poor representation of these on paper (pretty unlikely to get rejected pre-secondary)

There are several other things that come to mind, but aren't really things I would post on an public forum.
 
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She interviewed at Harvard, Yale, and Duke.

oh yeah, sorry I just skimmed through and missed that. I still stand by my advice to apply to more mid tier schools. Aren't Wake Forest and Georgetown the only non top-tier schools on OP's list? There are people with much lower stats getting way more interviews than somebody with almost perfect #s
 
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Hi @flowerpower123, I am sorry about how things have gone for you. While there are things you could have done better, nothing jumps out as a fatal flaw. @Willy38 said it best.

Does your school typically provide one, did you get one, and do you think it was positive?.

No... my school doesn't provide committee letter
 
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It looks like you need to improve your interview skills. Are you waiting on any more schools?

Not true. If all OP had was 3 interviews, it's statistically not a stretch to be rejected from all 3.
 
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She interviewed at Harvard, Yale, and Duke.
Don't they interview like 900 people for 200 spots at Harvard?? They have a pretty high yield, so a lot of folks are interviewing for a lower probability of admittance (some schools have a 50% or more chance of acceptance if you get an interview). That may be playing into it. As I mentioned before, this is just very sad for someone who worked so hard. When Bad things happen to Good People.
 
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IMHO there has to be more to this story than meets the eye.

To get interviews at Yale, Harvard, and Duke and literally none of the other schools on that list gave an interview (and actually gave a rejection pre-interview/pre-secondary and not just silence) is bizarre.

Even with only 3 interviews, to have 3 rejections and not even a waitlist is also bizarre, although I know those 3 schools are notoriously stingy about their waitlists unlike some other schools which dump the overwhelming majority into the waitlist pile.

This all screams that there is something on this app that is causing it to go into the trash pile.

This is what scares me... I feel the same way... and I have no clue what it could be... I would have at least thought waitlist... somewhere? But just rejection... I guess I need to do some detective work, but most people I've already tried to contact are making me feel a bit like a pariah...
 
That sucks OP, but as it has been stated before, numbers aren't everything. Go to your career center/premed office to find out if your school offers interview practice, esp. with MMI's. Call the schools in May (I believe the 15th) and ask about what made them wary about inviting you to their medical college. Each will have their own reason (won't be stats obviously) but based on what you hear, you may need to take a year off if your EC's are the main cause. If it's just an interviewing problem, then you can reapply this summer and work on interview skills while working, studying, etc.

Obviously add more schools. Your list looks like you went to USNews and chose a bunch of top 20 schools to apply to. 4.0/35+ applicants are a dime-a-dozen where you applied and based on what you've given us, your ECs at these schools are not spectacular and don't set you apart. Look in-state (even if you're in CA) and apply there as well. Also look at OOS schools that don't discriminate OOS vs. IS. You don't need a brand-name MD to get into a spectacular residency (though it does help quite a bit.)

Hope my N=1 opinion helps out.
 
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This is what scares me... I feel the same way... and I have no clue what it could be... I would have at least thought waitlist... somewhere? But just rejection... I guess I need to do some detective work, but most people I've already tried to contact are making me feel a bit like a pariah...
As the season is still wrapping up, maybe talk to admissions folks more in May, after this cycle settles down, and they may more time for you. Your advisor may be able to reach out and get more information on your behalf. Good Luck on your next cycle.
 
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