555 EM spots did not fill in Match

[RuralEDDoc]

Wait what's lifestyle medicine?

Eat less
Drink less
Sleep more
Essentially elementary school health class

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[RustedFox]

Eat less
Drink less
Sleep more
Essentially elementary school health class

Oh my Lord, this.
I live in the wealthy end of my city.
These ostriches are all over.

Here's your fellowship training:

1. Tolerate ostriches. Use elaborate analogies to say simple things.
2. Write for whatever drugs they want.
3. Sell IV vitamin "compounds" to people with too much money and not enough common sense. Generally old money and it's families.
4. Use the word "holistic" too much.
5. Lose all self-respect. Prepare for actual physicians to rightfully belittle you.

You are now fellowship certified. That will be $76.99. thankyoupleasedrivethru.

 

[Birdstrike]

Hoping he can chime in with the how, what, when, why, etc. details to motivate others.

I think most of that is in this thread here: Pain Medicine is an Official Subspecialty of Emergency Medicine

But other than that, it's five words, "You don't have to suffer." You don't have to be trapped. If someone likes EM and sees themselves doing it for a 30-year career, that's great! But if not, people need to realize they don't need to be trapped and miserable, because of a choice they made when they were 26. Truly believing that, is half the battle.

 

[emergentmd]

Oh my Lord, this.
I live in the wealthy end of my city.
These ostriches are all over.

Here's your fellowship training:

1. Tolerate ostriches. Use elaborate analogies to say simple things.
2. Write for whatever drugs they want.
3. Sell IV vitamin "compounds" to people with too much money and not enough common sense. Generally old money and it's families.
4. Use the word "holistic" too much.
5. Lose all self-respect. Prepare for actual physicians to rightfully belittle you.

You are now fellowship certified. That will be $76.99. thankyoupleasedrivethru.

This seems like a worse course than the ER.

I keep hearing pain is a great option but that is 2 yrs of fellowship Plus the market isn't all that great.

 

[Birdstrike]

This seems like a worse course than the ER.

I keep hearing pain is a great option but that is 2 yrs of fellowship Plus the market isn't all that great.

2 years? It was a 1-year fellowship last I checked.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

This seems like a worse course than the ER.

I keep hearing pain is a great option but that is 2 yrs of fellowship Plus the market isn't all that great.

Yeah but no nights also pain is competitive and can make good money you have to build a base of patients though same as most procedural specialties

 

[emergentmd]

2 years? It was a 1-year fellowship last I checked.

Sorry 1 yr. My worse comment was the Lifestyle medicine

 

[Siggy]

5. Lose all self-respect. Prepare for actual physicians to rightfully belittle you.

I have more respect for them than the absentee landlords "supervising" multiple PLP practices.

 

[CechYourself]

The one thing that was notable about this match in EM (other than the sheer bloodbath) was how inefficient and useless the algorithm turns out to be when there are so many unfilled spots.

On average, those that SOAPed have worse applications than those who matched. Meanwhile, there are programs going unfilled that those who matched already would have rather gone to given the chance (programs in home state, well-regarded programs, etc.). While I'm super happy where I am, it just feels super dysfunctional to have incoming intern classes with, say, half that definitely wanted to go to that program and had good apps, and half who might not even be into EM and/or are worse candidates overall.

 

[EctopicFetus]

The one thing that was notable about this match in EM (other than the sheer bloodbath) was how inefficient and useless the algorithm turns out to be when there are so many unfilled spots.

On average, those that SOAPed have worse applications than those who matched. Meanwhile, there are programs going unfilled that those who matched already would have rather gone to given the chance (programs in home state, well-regarded programs, etc.). While I'm super happy where I am, it just feels super dysfunctional to have incoming intern classes with, say, half that definitely wanted to go to that program and had good apps, and half who might not even be into EM and/or are worse candidates overall.

Perhaps those programs didnt rank those docs. My understanding of the algorithm is that the students preference comes in front of the programs. This was a change from before. Meaning if med student X ranked a ABC program #1then as long as the student is on the match list of ABC program he will fill as long as he is on the list. Even if he is 100/100th on the list he would end up there before the program would go Unfilled.

Yes it is not perfect but thats the system. No one who ranked a more desireable program ended up at a lower program if that first program didnt fill unless that program didnt rank the student.

I wish 2024 was around the corner cause I think thats when real panic is gonna set in. I think we have 4 new programs opening, any med student with a functional brain will run. I know one of the new programs matched 100% carribean grads. Nothing wrong with the SGU/Ross folks but it used to be where the best of those schools got into EM now we have programs where that is all they can get. On par these will be weaker docs than US MD/DO docs.

I imagine in 2024 we have 300-500 post SOAP spots open.

 

[DeadCactus]

The match algorithm is fine and gets a lot of flack for no good reason. The problem is a lot of programs interviewed the same batch of applicants and didn't have enough of a buffer to make sure they fill. I suspect part of it is virtual interviews causing applicants to interview at more places and programs not adjusting to the new reality of what their interview pool should look like with the drop in applications relative to spots. Maybe we need an interview match to go with the residency match?

 

[Apollyon]

This was a change from before.

No it wasn't. For the recallable past, the match algorithm has favored applicants - at least 30 years, possibly longer.

 

[EctopicFetus]

No it wasn't. For the recallable past, the match algorithm has favored applicants - at least 30 years, possibly longer.

I thought that change happened mid 2000s. Either way. It favors them now. I looked it up. March 98.

 

[hopefulgasman]

Again, no one is knocking IMGs/FMGs. This isn’t directed at any poster above. The question is, why suddenly the change of heart for the so called “elite” programs? IMGs suddenly have a system wide improvement in their board scores and hit the 250/260 number y’all are looking for? Doubt it. IMGs suddenly wow you with second to none clinical skills + top 10 SLOEs across the board? Doubt it. Suddenly inclusion takes precedence over everything because you want to diversify your residency classes with individuals from around the world? Doubt it. Extreme hypothetical, but what happens when things go back to the way they use to be and EM is competitive again? Will legendary Parkland aka Dallas EM continue to take caribbean grads as they did for the first time this year? Doubt it.

 

[Apollyon]

I thought that change happened mid 2000s. Either way. It favors them now. I looked it up. March 98.

Good on ya. I overshot. I just knew it had been in effect for a while before I went through it.

 

[John Rawls]

To me there is nothing "woke" about defending IMG/FMG trainees. Medicine is a meritocracy, our entire career path is based on demonstrating competency and excellence. American medical schools should train American physicians.

 

[RustedFox]

To me there is nothing "woke" about defending IMG/FMG trainees. Medicine is a meritocracy, our entire career path is based on demonstrating competency and excellence. American medical schools should train American physicians.

If it were truly a meritocracy, I'd have gotten accepted to a US school with my 34 MCAT score and 3.7 GPA.
Was told straight-to-my-face by an adcom that "we have too many white applicants".

Yet, here I am. Harvard-of-the-Caribbean graduate, also finding an escape from EM.

 

[Birdstrike]

Diversity, Equity and Inclusion, or a Meritocracy?

Which is it?

 

[Franzd'Epinay]

Diversity, Equity and Inclusion, or a Meritocracy?

Which is it?

I'll take "False Dichotomies" for 500, Alex.

 

[Franzd'Epinay]

Agreed. Need trailblazers to create new fellowship paths..

There is no reason a EM doctor cannot learn FM, sleep, sports medicine, addiction medicine, lifestyle medicine, occupational med, stroke? (Every stroke patient seen by a neurologist is seen by an ER doc as well), geriatrics.

Our current fellowship options are so terrible other than pain, palliative, critical care and potentially toxicology. I mean what are you guys doing with an ultrasound or ems fellowship???? Most of the time you end up taking a lower paying university gig. There’s no value of these fellowships in community medicine - that’s how you know there’s really no real world application for these fellowships. These fellowship docs do exactly the same thing in the community as a non fellowship doc. What in this world is a simulation and administration fellowship. That’s just making up fellowships for cheap labor 🤣

I am fully on board with opening more fellowship pathways, but I am under no illusions that they will solve anything, at least not for most of the supposedly burned-out posters of this board. Whether you want to call it golden handcuffs or learned helplessness, I'm convinced many of the loudest voices here will never leave the field.

 

[rokshana]

Good on ya. I overshot. I just knew it had been in effect for a while before I went through it.

Not by much…that was 25 years ago…

 

[DeadCactus]

I'll take "False Dichotomies" for 500, Alex.

Didn't you know meritocracy means meriting things I have a systematic advantage at while discrediting things others have accomplished?

 

[cyanide12345678]

I am fully on board with opening more fellowship pathways, but I am under no illusions that they will solve anything, at least not for most of the supposedly burned-out posters of this board. Whether you want to call it golden handcuffs or learned helplessness, I'm convinced many of the loudest voices here will never leave the field.

I’m definitely one of the loud voices.

I am 100 percent certain i am not going to be doing this into my 50s.

High chance i might not be doing this in my late 40s either.

Money isn’t everything - took a 50k paycut 2.5 years out of residency for a better job.

Taking a 90k paycut starting January 2024 by dropping my hours to 0.75 fte.

Plan to definitely drop hours further once the nest egg grows even bigger. 3M is my number where i don’t ‘need’ to work anymore - probably 5-ish years from that number.

34 now - 4 years out this July. At this rate i might not even be practicing in my early to mid 40s 🤣 but I’ll probably suck it up for a little bit. But definitely not doing this in my 50s - NOT WORTH IT.

 

[RustedFox]

Didn't you know meritocracy means meriting things I have a systematic advantage at while discrediting things others have accomplished?

Oh, boy. You again.
Somehow, standardized tests are systemically racist.
By your logic, NBA basketball is also systemically racist.

 

[DeadCactus]

Oh, boy. You again.
Somehow, standardized tests are systemically racist.
By your logic, NBA basketball is also systemically racist.

People make it to the NBA to play basketball by playing basketball well. No one makes them a multiple choice test, paint a picture, run a marathon, or some other surrogate marker to decide if they should be recruited. If we were using standardized tests to hire people to take standardized tests, that argument would make sense. I'm not going to rehash this whole debate - you seem to have an emotional need to believe standardized test scores and GPA are free of socioeconomic-racial influence. At the end of the day, many groups continue to be underrepresented in medicine. Either you believe that is because there are systemic barriers to their entry that should be reduced or you believe it's because they don't deserve to be there. One option supports racial inequities and the other eliminates them.

 

[RustedFox]

People make it to the NBA to play basketball by playing basketball well. No one makes them a multiple choice test, paint a picture, run a marathon, or some other surrogate marker to decide if they should be recruited. If we were using standardized tests to hire people to take standardized tests, that argument would make sense. I'm not going to rehash this whole debate - you seem to have an emotional need to believe standardized test scores and GPA are free of socioeconomic-racial influence. At the end of the day, many groups continue to be underrepresented in medicine. Either you believe that is because there are systemic barriers to their entry that should be reduced or you believe it's because they don't deserve to be there. One option supports racial inequities and the other eliminates them.

Me too.
You have a need to believe that tests somehow measure race and socioeconomic background and not "being able to apply the knowledge correctly to score well".

Play basketball well?
Good, go play in the NBA.

Play science, math, and related items well?
Good, go play medicine, or whatever you want that requires these items.

Radical idea: some people don't belong in medicine, just in the same way as I don't belong in the NBA; I lack the necessary skill and aptitude. How "racially inequitable!"

 

[DeadCactus]

I don't know why you cling to this NBA idea so much like it's some kind of gotcha. Maybe there are genes predominate in the Black community that do make them better at the specific task of basketball. Maybe there are systematic barriers that help Black athletes make it to the NBA and hinder other athletes. I don't really care, I didn't build up some argument that the NBA is a mecca for equity so I don't know why you think it's some kind of great point. Go start the "White Kids Can Jump" non-profit if you care so much.

Just to be clear, you think certain groups in medicine are underrepresented because they are not qualified to be physicians?

 

[Franzd'Epinay]

@RustedFox,

Plenty of white people get into MD schools with worse scores and GPA than you had. Even more if you include DO schools

I know "they took our jerbs" makes for an enticing scapegoat, but med schools are not 100%, 75%, 50%, or even 25% URMs. This idea that there is a critical mass of unqualified URMs taking away seats from more deserving white kids is just not reality. There have always been and there will always be plenty of white kids with middling stats admitted to med school.

It's entirely likely that the US-MD seat you feel entitled to was given to a white kid with lower stats than you. That's just the truth based the raw numbers.

Here are some common reasons why applicants with decent stats don't get into med school:

1. Bad application strategy. Some kids assume they're shoo-ins and apply to too few schools, too many selective schools, or both.
2. Unimpressive ECs.
3. Poor interviewing.
4. Poor LORs
5. Plain bad luck. There are more qualified applicants than there are med school seats, after all.

If I remember correctly from the many times you've whined about your woes--which is seemingly every single thread on this board--you might have at least fallen into category 1.

 

[miacomet]

The one thing that was notable about this match in EM (other than the sheer bloodbath) was how inefficient and useless the algorithm turns out to be when there are so many unfilled spots.

On average, those that SOAPed have worse applications than those who matched. Meanwhile, there are programs going unfilled that those who matched already would have rather gone to given the chance (programs in home state, well-regarded programs, etc.). While I'm super happy where I am, it just feels super dysfunctional to have incoming intern classes with, say, half that definitely wanted to go to that program and had good apps, and half who might not even be into EM and/or are worse candidates overall.

My guess is "top" programs will be interviewing and ranking way down their list next year. Kings County obviously did so with their plethora of DOs and IMGs, others will have to follow.

 

[hopefulgasman]

My guess is "top" programs will be interviewing and ranking way down their list next year. Kings County obviously did so with their plethora of DOs and IMGs, others will have to follow.

Over 40 spots went unfilled after the SOAP. Dr. Cook and other realists predict the hemorrhaging will not stop next year and numbers are likely to be even worse. This is an understatement. 200+ unfilled in 22, 500+ unfilled in 23, 1000+ unfilled in 24 is on the horizon. It will take years for USMDs and DO med students to change their minds that this is a safe field. Med school advisors will be even slower to endorse a specialty with damning empiric evidence against it until around the year 2030 when the oversupply report will either prove true or be disproven.

EM is shaping out to be worse off than radiation oncology whose positions didn’t grow as interest sharply declined. Here, EM residency programs continue to sprout despite cliff diving interest. Did NYU need to open another brand new program in Long Island, yes they did.

Emergency Medicine Residency | NYU Langone Health

NYU Grossman Long Island School of Medicine’s Department of Emergency Medicine offers a three-year residency.

medli.nyu.edu

 

[miacomet]

Over 40 spots went unfilled after the SOAP. Dr. Cook and other realists predict the hemorrhaging will not stop next year and numbers are likely to be even worse. This is an understatement. 200+ unfilled in 22, 500+ unfilled in 23, 1000+ unfilled in 24 is on the horizon. It will take years for USMDs and DO med students to change their minds that this is a safe field. Med school advisors will be even slower to endorse a specialty with damning empiric evidence against it until around the year 2030 when the oversupply report will either prove true or be disproven.

EM is shaping out to be worse off than radiation oncology whose positions didn’t grow as interest sharply declined. Here, EM residency programs continue to sprout despite cliff diving interest. Did NYU need to open another brand new program in Long Island, yes they did.

Emergency Medicine Residency | NYU Langone Health

NYU Grossman Long Island School of Medicine’s Department of Emergency Medicine offers a three-year residency.

medli.nyu.edu

I was responding the comment regarding students not getting their top picks.

There are IMGs, FMGS, people who graduate from fly by night for-profit schools that will happily take those spots next year. The 40 will probably fill in the SOAP. More IMGs, DOs, for-profit grads will apply to EM next year. I absolutely agree that US MDs will flee like never before.

It's wild to me how aggressively out of touch residency faculty are- a doc at a well-respected program in NYC (I get that none of them are really respected, but respected and desired within the NYC EM community) was shocked my previous shop had 100 applicants for a part time position, and referred to a crappy program just outside NYC as "graduating some great residents, including one who got a (insert useless fellowship here)." I mean, I can't even. Like they have no clue.

 

[Franzd'Epinay]

Over 40 spots went unfilled after the SOAP. Dr. Cook and other realists predict the hemorrhaging will not stop next year and numbers are likely to be even worse. This is an understatement. 200+ unfilled in 22, 500+ unfilled in 23, 1000+ unfilled in 24 is on the horizon. It will take years for USMDs and DO med students to change their minds that this is a safe field. Med school advisors will be even slower to endorse a specialty with damning empiric evidence against it until around the year 2030 when the oversupply report will either prove true or be disproven.

EM is shaping out to be worse off than radiation oncology whose positions didn’t grow as interest sharply declined. Here, EM residency programs continue to sprout despite cliff diving interest. Did NYU need to open another brand new program in Long Island, yes they did.

Emergency Medicine Residency | NYU Langone Health

NYU Grossman Long Island School of Medicine’s Department of Emergency Medicine offers a three-year residency.

medli.nyu.edu

I think the following scenario is possible:

• PDs see the trend and do not want to go through the hassle of the SOAP or scramble
• PDs relax application requirements:
  • Score cut-offs are gone
  • Repeated years are not automatic disqualifiers
  • SLOEs become strongly recommended but not mandatory
  • PDs will educate themselves on the visa process
• EM spots continue to fill when all is said and done

I think PDs the last two years were somewhat caught off-guard, but now that they know 2022 wasn't a one-off, it's very possible they will adapt to the changing times.

 

[miacomet]

I think the following scenario is possible:

• PDs see the trend and do not want to go through the hassle of the SOAP or scramble
• PDs relax application requirements:
  • Score cut-offs are gone
  • Repeated years are not automatic disqualifiers
  • SLOEs become strongly recommended but not mandatory
  • PDs will educate themselves on the visa process
• EM spots continue to fill when all is said and done

I think PDs the last two years were somewhat caught off-guard, but now that they know 2022 wasn't a one-off, it's very possible they will adapt to the changing times.

Exactly, they will interview a ham sandwich rather than have their spots unfilled or SOAP/scramble. And the field will continue imploding.

 

[RustedFox]

I don't know why you cling to this NBA idea so much like it's some kind of gotcha. Maybe there are genes predominate in the Black community that do make them better at the specific task of basketball. Maybe there are systematic barriers that help Black athletes make it to the NBA and hinder other athletes. I don't really care, I didn't build up some argument that the NBA is a mecca for equity so I don't know why you think it's some kind of great point. Go start the "White Kids Can Jump" non-profit if you care so much.

Just to be clear, you think certain groups in medicine are underrepresented because they are not qualified to be physicians?

I love you guys. You and FranceDePenay or whatever.

Here's the part where you (again) try to bait me into saying what you want me to say, so you can then retort with: "BuT tHaT's RaCiSt; YoU'rE a RAcIsT!"

Yet, this is meritocracy?

Psst ! Its not a white-and-black thing. The "systemic racism" nonsense, when actually examined, doesn't hold up, now does it?

 

[DeadCactus]

You should consider why you have to be so afraid you'll sound racist if you answer basic questions on your beliefs.

 

[thegenius]

Exactly, they will interview a ham sandwich rather than have their spots unfilled or SOAP/scramble. And the field will continue imploding.

Too many ham sandwiches. They want a bison or elk sandwich instead.

 

[RustedFox]

You should consider why you have to be so afraid you'll sound racist if you answer basic questions on your beliefs.

Nah. Its a matter of the false dichotomy that you set up, but you yourself decry.
I guess you are living proof that a physician can be remarkably intellectually dishonest, and then not see the problem with that.

 

[DeadCactus]

You're welcome to explain a third option for why some groups are underrepresented in medicine.
1. Barriers inhibit qualified applicants from those groups from entering the field
2. There are fewer qualified applicants from those groups and they appropriately underrepresented
3. ?

Or just keep posting memes implying non-white matriculants have low GPA's and MCAT's when the data clearly shows significant overlap in the distributions.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

I love you guys. You and FranceDePenay or whatever.

Here's the part where you (again) try to bait me into saying what you want me to say, so you can then retort with: "BuT tHaT's RaCiSt; YoU'rE a RAcIsT!"

Yet, this is meritocracy?

View attachment 368968

Psst ! Its not a white-and-black thing. The "systemic racism" nonsense, when actually examined, doesn't hold up, now does it?

He still failed anyway

 

[WilcoWorld]

View attachment 368968

I'm not sure if this meme is true, but I'm certain that it presents intentionally selective information in order to produce an anti-black sentiment.

 

[thegenius]

Hmmm...this thread is on it's way to being locked too

 

[Franzd'Epinay]

I love you guys. You and FranceDePenay or whatever.

Here's the part where you (again) try to bait me into saying what you want me to say, so you can then retort with: "BuT tHaT's RaCiSt; YoU'rE a RAcIsT!"

Yet, this is meritocracy?

View attachment 368968

Psst ! Its not a white-and-black thing. The "systemic racism" nonsense, when actually examined, doesn't hold up, now does it?

Have you looked into this guy's story further than the picture? I disagree with a lot of his inflammatory writing, but there are a few interesting nuggets pertinent to the conversation at hand:

To my knowledge, he never actually applied as "Vijay", so the implication that he was rejected when Indian American is wrong.

This same guy dropped out of med school and eventually went to business school in California (where Affirmative Action is illegal) and he specifically commented that it is possible (and a good thing) to have a diverse student body without Affirmative Action. So the guy in the picture actually agrees that "diversity vs. meritocracy" is a false dichotomy.

Finally, on systemic racism, I'll just quote you one of the guys' posts:

After the shooting of a black teenager, Laquan McDonald, by a white Chicago police officer, Jason Van ****, in 2016, the Chicago Police Accountability Task Force produced a report, “Recommendations for Reform: Restoring Trust between the Chicago Police and the Communities they Serve” claiming that Chicago PD had “Stopped without justification, verbally and physically abused, and in some instances arrested, and then detained without counsel” people of color. The task force produced a host of statistical evidence, such as the fact that Black people who made up only about a third of the population were the subjects in 72% of the investigative street stops not leading to arrests during the summer of 2014, to support their claim that the police disproportionately targeted blacks. The report also concluded that Chicago police union contracts “make it easy for officers to lie in official reports.”


My response to all of this was well duh; it’s been like that for decades. I learned all of this, while posing as a black man. I always thought that my experiences posing as black to get into med school were unique. However, after reading this report, I concluded that my experiences, at least when it come to the Chicago Police, were representative of the general experiences of a black man living in Chicago.


In 1999, I shaved my head and trimmed my eyelashes so I could pose as black while applying to medical school to take advantage of affirmative action preferences in admissions. I was fortunate enough to drive a nice car (my father’s Red Toyota 4Runner Truck), which I frequently drove down Lake Shore Drive in Chicago. When I posed as black, I got pulled over for speeding for the first time in Chicago. Previously, I had not gotten pulled over for speeding in the 3 years that I lived in Chicago as an Indian. I changed my appearance, not my driving habits, so I was surprised to get pulled over.


What happened next really surprised me. Officer McNamara of the Chicago Police Department asked me “Do you know how expensive this car is? How did you get such an expensive car?”


My response was, “Yes, I know exactly how expensive this car is, because I was with my father when he bought it.”


So I pulled out my registration and my driver license, and I showed that the car was in fact mine. Officer McNamara did a double take when he saw the photo of me with a full head of hair on my driver license. His suspicions were assuaged when he realized I was Indian. He said “ Oh, you must be an University of Chicago student.” The overly inquisitive Chicago police officer eventually gave me a speeding ticket.


On the suggestion of a friend, I decided to contest the ticket, hoping that the Police Officer would not go to court to contest it, meaning that the ticket would be dropped. Unfortunately, Officer McNamara came to court. At that time, I decided to confront him about the inappropriate question he had asked me.


In response, I expected Officer McNamara to say that he was curious about how I got the car or that he normally asked questions of that nature. Perhaps he thought I was a criminal or had some legitimate reason to be suspicious of me. What actually happened shocked me. Officer McNamara denied the whole thing.


“I didn’t do anything like that, it never happened.”


I spent my entire life believing in the integrity of the police. And for that reason, I was astounded to watch Officer McNamara of the Chicago Police Department commit perjury in a court of law.


I wasn’t Al Capone, some diabolical mobster, who might get away on a technicality if Officer McNamara didn’t perjure himself. I was cocky, overly smug frat boy who might get out of a $75 speeding ticket if Officer McNamara admitted he asked an inappropriate question. And in order to ensure that I got a speeding ticket, Officer McNamara commited perjury in a court of law. It occurred to me that if Officer McNamara was willing to lie to ensure that I got a $75 speeding ticket, what wasn’t he willing to lie about? What is the point of having a trial if the officer is just going to lie in order to convict? How many people had gone to jail based on the words of this lying police officer and how many other officers were like him?


I discovered that there were actually two speed limits in Chicago, one for blacks and one for whites and Asians. If you’re not black you can go 10 miles over the speed limit. If you’re black you have to go the posted speed limit or get pulled over by the police, who are profiling blacks. Henceforward, I always drove the black speed limit, 10 miles slower.

 

[Franzd'Epinay]

Hmmm...this thread is on it's way to being locked too

The further a thread goes on, the probability that RustedFox will start raging about his med school rejections or gender pronouns approaches 1.

 

[BoardingDoc]

Dad voice: Time to get back to the topic at hand y'all....

 

[Birdstrike]

The above picture that Rusted Fox posted isn't a meme. It's taken from the NY Post article written by the brother of the actress Mindy Kaling, about his experience applying to medical school. The article, here >>> NY Post .

 

[CechYourself]

Perhaps those programs didnt rank those docs. My understanding of the algorithm is that the students preference comes in front of the programs. This was a change from before. Meaning if med student X ranked a ABC program #1then as long as the student is on the match list of ABC program he will fill as long as he is on the list. Even if he is 100/100th on the list he would end up there before the program would go Unfilled.

Yes, but consider that most smart IMGs did not apply to places that had no intent on accepting them. This was my strategy. I only applied to places that had taken IMGs in the recent past. Why waste my money on those that wouldn't look at your app anyway. Anyway, it is what it is. I might be exaggerating the fall of in strength between matched IMGs and those who didn't match. All I can do is my best in my program.

Yes it is not perfect but thats the system. No one who ranked a more desireable program ended up at a lower program if that first program didnt fill unless that program didnt rank the student.

I wish 2024 was around the corner cause I think thats when real panic is gonna set in. I think we have 4 new programs opening, any med student with a functional brain will run. I know one of the new programs matched 100% carribean grads. Nothing wrong with the SGU/Ross folks but it used to be where the best of those schools got into EM now we have programs where that is all they can get. On par these will be weaker docs than US MD/DO docs.

What four new programs are opening? I don't see any on the ACGME website.

I imagine in 2024 we have 300-500 post SOAP spots open.

I agree with this assessment. Maybe more, but I think IMGs will make up the difference before it goes to like 700 unfilled spots.

 

[EctopicFetus]

You're welcome to explain a third option for why some groups are underrepresented in medicine.
1. Barriers inhibit qualified applicants from those groups from entering the field
2. There are fewer qualified applicants from those groups and they appropriately underrepresented
3. ?

Or just keep posting memes implying non-white matriculants have low GPA's and MCAT's when the data clearly shows significant overlap in the distributions.

I’ll bite a bit. THE URMs are true in numerous fields. Law, accounting, engineering etc. I am no DEI expert but my guess is it has more to do with $$ and upbringing than “racism”. A black kid who has a parent as a doctor is more likely to become a doctor, lawyer etc than a white kid in a trailer park who got a neck tattoo at 16. I think thats reality. I am unsure thats “systemic racism”. I think it is foolish to not understand that a wealthy kid who went to a nice private school is gonna do better in getting into college and grad school than a kid who grew up in the hood. I say this as someone who grew up in the hood, went to a HS that was 12% white.

On par and removing individual characteristics of a kid the kids who have parents who care, who stress education and work ethic will do better than those who dont. Having rich parents gives you a leg up. I interviewed a HS kid who had a really impressive resume but was a total goober. Further questioning on how he did so much gave the answer. His dad was some C suite dude at a local hospital.

Note this kid wasnt white. But he was granted these opportunities because of what his dad accomplished.

 

[FMtoEM]

I’ll bite a bit. THE URMs are true in numerous fields. Law, accounting, engineering etc. I am no DEI expert but my guess is it has more to do with $$ and upbringing than “racism”. A black kid who has a parent as a doctor is more likely to become a doctor, lawyer etc than a white kid in a trailer park who got a neck tattoo at 16. I think thats reality. I am unsure thats “systemic racism”. I think it is foolish to not understand that a wealthy kid who went to a nice private school is gonna do better in getting into college and grad school than a kid who grew up in the hood. I say this as someone who grew up in the hood, went to a HS that was 12% white.

On par and removing individual characteristics of a kid the kids who have parents who care, who stress education and work ethic will do better than those who dont. Having rich parents gives you a leg up. I interviewed a HS kid who had a really impressive resume but was a total goober. Further questioning on how he did so much gave the answer. His dad was some C suite dude at a local hospital.

Note this kid wasnt white. But he was granted these opportunities because of what his dad accomplished.

Interesting points. Certainly true. My question to you is were there not any historically systemic racist causes that made URMs especially blacks to have less money and today it looks more like a $$ issue as you state. Things don’t happen in a vacuum. Things that happened in the past definitely still have a deleterious effect on URMs today.

In summary $$ issue today due to systemic racist causes in the past. Looks like it’s due to both.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

I’ll bite a bit. THE URMs are true in numerous fields. Law, accounting, engineering etc. I am no DEI expert but my guess is it has more to do with $$ and upbringing than “racism”. A black kid who has a parent as a doctor is more likely to become a doctor, lawyer etc than a white kid in a trailer park who got a neck tattoo at 16. I think thats reality. I am unsure thats “systemic racism”. I think it is foolish to not understand that a wealthy kid who went to a nice private school is gonna do better in getting into college and grad school than a kid who grew up in the hood. I say this as someone who grew up in the hood, went to a HS that was 12% white.

On par and removing individual characteristics of a kid the kids who have parents who care, who stress education and work ethic will do better than those who dont. Having rich parents gives you a leg up. I interviewed a HS kid who had a really impressive resume but was a total goober. Further questioning on how he did so much gave the answer. His dad was some C suite dude at a local hospital.

Note this kid wasnt white. But he was granted these opportunities because of what his dad accomplished.

Someone redefined the term racism in the past x years. It doesn't mean what it used to mean. Old school definition racism still exists but it's not the thing that people call racism i.e. systemic racism.

So you'll say what you just said, and it sure makes sense, but the next poster will just tell you that's all systemic racism.

And then someone will lock the thread.


Edit: And the next poster did, in fact, so the thing.

 

[southerndoc]

This thread has run its course and has significantly strayed from its intended topic.