A General Lack of Kindness in These Threads

[LAPsyGuy]

What shocks me most is that some of the more aggressive posters seem to be on this forum all day. How do you find time? You claim to be professionals but you seem to be spending a lot of work time on these forums. How would the VA respond to that? I doubt that they would consider this an approved use of government funds.

I have to say, I agree with the OP but also know what to expect from this (and other) forums. There is a line between professional feedback/opinions and just being an a-hole all the time. The responders claim that students have difficulty "hearing" difficult FSPS information; well, you aggressive posters are having trouble hearing feedback about the tone of your posts.

Everyone, grow up.

Agreed. Thank you for your even tone and clear language. I definitely have some growing up to do too, but I appreciate you acknowledging the points I made. At least there's one adult in the room.

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[smalltownpsych]

I'm thinking the photo of keith moon makes them as uncomfortable as the contents of the posts.

 

[erg923]

I'm histrionic instead of having a valid concern, right? Invalidating my opinion allows you to simply ignore what I'm saying. I'm histrionic when I play around with you, and you're a good fella when you do the same. That sounds like fun.

Yes to all of the above.

 

[LAPsyGuy]

The quote has been quoted at least 3 times thus far.

I do, I apologize(d) for the unskillful language, and I will make efforts to use more constructive language in the future; however, the points stand.

 

[WisNeuro]

They do, as do counter points.

 

[LAPsyGuy]

Yes to all of the above.

I thought people weren't going to rise to the occasion, but you have. Thank you.

 

[LAPsyGuy]

They do, as do counter points.

I'm not sure what you're referring to.

 

[WisNeuro]

You seem to be doing the same thing that you are decrying. Saying that the way others are doing this is wrong and that they must be doing it with ill intent. all the while making indirect attacks on their character based on the content of their posts here.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I think Erg and Wis should be nicer, too! No, not really, I value the tenor with which they approach challenges to the field of psychology and I am thinking that too many people in this field value kindness over truth.

 

[WisNeuro]

I think Erg and Wis should be nicer, too! No, not really, I value the tenor with which they approach challenges to the field of psychology and I am thinking that too many people in this field value kindness over truth.

Paul Meehl approves of this comment

 

[LAPsyGuy]

They do, as do counter points.

What are the counterpoints other than tough love?

 

[VeryHopeful2010]

My guess would be that if they were nicer, they might be heard a bit more. They do have good, generally benevolent and valuable advice. To me, truth and kindness are not necessarily strange bedfellows.

 

[LAPsyGuy]

Paul Meehl approves of this comment

Are kindness and truth mutually exclusive? I don't believe they are. That's actually my whole point.

 

[erg923]

I thought people weren't going to rise to the occasion, but you have. Thank you.

This I what I would picture our meeting to be like. I will be Billy Batts and you can be Tommy D (Joe Peschi)...

Just kill me on the first go around though, please.

 

[LAPsyGuy]

It's becoming clearer to me that, perhaps, this is all based on a false dichotomy between kind

This I what I would picture our meeting to be like. I will be Billy Batts and you can be Tommy D (Joe Peschi)...

Just kill me on the first go around though, please.

I'm on a connection that doesn't permit youtube. I'm sure it's enlightening though. Thank you for taking the time to link to it.

 

[WisNeuro]

One of those common factors, genuineness. This is me, in certain areas, I am very blunt. In others I am much more empathic. I've gotten much more positive feedback on here than negative. I'm good with the status quo. People do not have to heed my advice if they don't like it. Me, I'd rather someone tell me, harshly or not, if I'm about to make a 200k+ mistake.

 

[MCParent]

I am thinking that too many people in this field value kindness over truth.

I don't think it is "kind" to assume that one is so important in influential in the lives of anonymous others on an internet message board that the merest slight might reduce the spun-glass masses to tearful blobs. That kind of condescension and self-importance seems ridiculous to me.

If people choose to become tearful blobs at the merest slight, there's not a lot I can do about that.

 

[LAPsyGuy]

I looked up the

This I what I would picture our meeting to be like. I will be Billy Batts and you can be Tommy D (Joe Peschi)...

Just kill me on the first go around though, please.

I looked up the scene. So you're saying, if we met you'd be cruel and sadistic? Ok, good to know.

 

[LAPsyGuy]

I don't think it is "kind" to assume that one is so important in influential in the lives of anonymous others on an internet message board that the merest slight might reduce the spun-glass masses to tearful blobs. That kind of condescension and self-importance seems ridiculous to me.

If people choose to become tearful blobs at the merest slight, there's not a lot I can do about that.

I'm referring to my own observations, and to the observations others have made that were blown off, and continue to be blown off. I don't think I characterized anybody as tearful blobs, just people who are looking for support and guidance.

 

[LAPsyGuy]

If people choose to become tearful blobs at the merest slight, there's not a lot I can do about that.

Just saw this. Really? When somebody becomes upset, it's totally due to poor affect management and oversensitivity? Also, I didn't see anybody become tearful blobs. I just saw people stating the approach taken in providing advice was less than skillful and kind.

 

[WisNeuro]

Out of curiosity, how would you advise someone about going to a professional school with a sub 50% match rate and at least 150k in tuition in a skillful and kind manner?

 

[LAPsyGuy]

One of those common factors, genuineness. This is me, in certain areas, I am very blunt. In others I am much more empathic. I've gotten much more positive feedback on here than negative. I'm good with the status quo. People do not have to heed my advice if they don't like it. Me, I'd rather someone tell me, harshly or not, if I'm about to make a 200k+ mistake.

Again, not about the content, but about the delivery. I guess the question is whether you want your useful information to be taken in by the person listening. I think that if people finds another person abrasive, they will simply ignore the message and move along. They probably wouldn't say it was abrasive because they assume they'll get more of the same, and they move on. I believe there's actually efficiency in being kind as well.

 

[erg923]

I looked up the

I looked up the scene. So you're saying, if we met you'd be cruel and sadistic? Ok, good to know.

Sigh. No. I'm saying I would likely crack a joke, ya know, just Billy Batts breakin' balls (Not all teasing was "bullying" when/where I grew-up). You would likley have no sense of humor about it (Tommy D).

Now...go home and get your sense of humor...

 

[LAPsyGuy]

Out of curiosity, how would you advise someone about going to a professional school with a sub 50% match rate and at least 150k in tuition in a skillful and kind manner?

I would say "You might want to rethink that decision. I understand how much you want to be a psychologist, but there are some significant drawback to this path including...(what you wrote). My suggestion is to take these into account as you move forward. "

 

[WisNeuro]

Doesn't seem too different than what most people on here do. We give them the information (match %, tuition) and usually leave it at that. Where is the harshness and invalidation?

 

[LAPsyGuy]

Sigh. No. I'm saying I would likely crack a joke, ya know, just Billy Batts breakin' balls (Not all teasing was "bullying" when/where I grew-up). You would likley have no sense of humor about it (Tommy D).

Now...go home and get your sense of humor...

Joe P.'s character didn't seem to think it was funny. What do you make of that? I have a sense of humor, and I brought it with me, but I did jettison cruelty and "ball braking" years ago when I was made aware that others found it hurtful in stead of playful. There are still some I do that with, but I know them, their buttons and limits.

 

[LAPsyGuy]

Doesn't seem too different than what most people on here do. We give them the information (match %, tuition) and usually leave it at that. Where is the harshness and invalidation?

I'll let you review the threads for that. It's readily apparent to many. If you don't see it, ok.

 

[erg923]

Joe P.'s character didn't seem to think it was funny. What do you make of that?

I make that he was acting like total drama queen. Much like you have been during this thread.

 

[WisNeuro]

You asked for a quote earlier because you didn't see something. I'm just asking for the same courtesy. Because, readily apparent to many fits, if by many you mean less than a handful.

 

[MCParent]

Just saw this. Really? When somebody becomes upset, it's totally due to poor affect management and oversensitivity? Also, I didn't see anybody become tearful blobs. I just saw people stating the approach taken in providing advice was less than skillful and kind.

On occasion, people do figuratively go to pieces on here when someone dares to suggest that they are not 100% correct, perfect snowflakes whose plans will all lead to fruition (see that weird model/actress/pop psychologist thread). That's more what I was referring to. To a less dramatic degree, many times people have posted on here literally asking for only input that supports their decisions (e.g., "I only want to hear from people who attended Bob's House of Psychotherapy"). Yes, this is a level of intellectual and emotional functioning so weak that it is worthy of derision, though all it typically gets is indistinguishable to me from your suggested template.

 

[MCParent]

I'll let you review the threads for that. It's readily apparent to many. If you don't see it, ok.

Can you give an example? Because this just says you feel it is different. No one can modify their behavior based on your subjective emotional reaction.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Unfortunately many who "just want feedback" are actually looking for their point of view to be validated, not challenged. Challenging their view is often taken as a slight, so now they view everyone as "attacking them", when in actuality people are providing feedback per the request. Trying to pick out the "slights" takes the actual focus away from the outcome data and experiences of many people who have walked the path already. In some instances the message could be delivered more gently, but that doesn't change the data…which is the same whether it is served with honey or vinegar.

ps. It looks like MCParent was quicker in his response to this, but I guess great minds think alike.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

It is worth noting that posters cannot be responsible for other people's feelings or how a person chooses to react. There are going to be differences of opinion and how those opinions are expressed, but that's life. If someone is being a jerk or writes something that is clearly out of line, there is generally a response from others about it.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Paul Meehl approves of this comment

yes. I recall reading some of his work, at least after I googled him.
I had a professor in the doctoral program who pointed out this dynamic as well. He would have students break down into tears during clinical competency exams as he challenged their thinking. I had him for a practicum class where we would discuss cases and felt the power of that several times. I recall being really frustrated as he interpreted my strong therapeutic rapport with a client at the VA as collusion with his defenses. In retrospect, my frustration with him had more to do with my being effective in my communication as opposed to the professor not listening or being rude or condescending. great learning experience, that's for sure.

 

[erg923]

I'm thinking the photo of keith moon makes them as uncomfortable as the contents of the posts.

"Moon the Loon" made everyone comfortable. Except his drums, which he unleasahed his furry upon.

 

[LAPsyGuy]

I make that he was acting like total drama queen. Much like you have been during this thread.

Using that twice huh? "Drama queen" seems weak for somebody trying to break some balls.

 

[LAPsyGuy]

You asked for a quote earlier because you didn't see something. I'm just asking for the same courtesy. Because, readily apparent to many fits, if by many you mean less than a handful.

Sorry. I don't have time for that footwork. But you can just look at erg in this thread for a taste.

 

[LAPsyGuy]

It is worth noting that posters cannot be responsible for other people's feelings or how a person chooses to react. There are going to be differences of opinion and how those opinions are expressed, but that's life. If someone is being a jerk or writes something that is clearly out of line, there is generally a response from others about it.

There's a difference between sensitivity and responsibility.

 

[WisNeuro]

We're not talking about this thread, we're talking about what this thread references. And, as others have said, the egregious offenses referenced here have not yet been substantiated. If it is so rampant, I imagine not much footwork would be needed to find references.

 

[LAPsyGuy]

Can you give an example? Because this just says you feel it is different. No one can modify their behavior based on your subjective emotional reaction.

Check out Erg's response to my concerns, and think about how someone who cares about his opinion my respond to his being playful (invalidating). This is not the only thread he's done this one, people have called him on it, but he just tells them to get a sense of humor or that they're being a drama queen or stupid or inferior or whatever. Others are not far behind him. Being insulting/invalidating and then blaming the target for not liking it can be a damaging "game."

 

[LAPsyGuy]

We're not talking about this thread, we're talking about what this thread references. And, as others have said, the egregious offenses referenced here have not yet been substantiated. If it is so rampant, I imagine not much footwork would be needed to find references.

Not egregious. Boy things get blown up quickly. I'm talking about invalidation and unpleasantness while communicating useful information. I've been very consistent about this. Erg is now bordering on egregious, but I don't mind. Ergregious.

 

[WisNeuro]

And, in general, I haven't seen that invalidation and unpleasantness, outside of this thread, from which barbs are thrown from each camp.

 

[LAPsyGuy]

We're not talking about this thread, we're talking about what this thread references. And, as others have said, the egregious offenses referenced here have not yet been substantiated. If it is so rampant, I imagine not much footwork would be needed to find references.

The last few pages of the ask a recent graduate thread is a good example. People even point out the unpleasantness.

 

[WisNeuro]

And even more people say that they appreciate the feedback and point out that others seem only to take offense when people's advice doesn't match up with a pre-conceived notion.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Ergregious.

Finally some humor! What other reason would I have for reading posts between sessions? Thoughtful debate?

 

[LAPsyGuy]

And, in general, I haven't seen that invalidation and unpleasantness, outside of this thread, from which barbs are thrown from each camp.

ok. I guess we have, we all have, different thresholds.

 

[psyman]

I like rabbits.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I like rabbits.

This post should get non sequitur of the year award.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I would say "You might want to rethink that decision. I understand how much you want to be a psychologist, but there are some significant drawback to this path including...(what you wrote). My suggestion is to take these into account as you move forward. "

Wouldn't kindness be appreciating various posters styles of communication and not necessarily trying to change them? It would be boring if we all had to be nice. That post is nice but might not have as much effect as, "What are you thinking about applying to Argosy you mindless baboon!"

 

[BuckeyeLove]

I tend to think that the information these “aggressive posters” continue to provide is gold. You’re not going to get it anywhere else in such a concise and direct fashion. They are taking time out of their day to answer questions, and not charging you by the hour to do so, essentially providing free consultative services.