A lot of DO rotations aren't so good...

[17DOmed]

MS-III here and I find that it's pretty evident most DO rotations aren't so great. On average it seems sites have 1-2 good rotations in terms of education with everything else being luck of the draw. Now the people at these sites are pretty nice and friendly. Attendings do put in a fair amount of effort. The core issues seem to stem from the school itself.

There's no clinical structure and curriculum that actually makes sense. Going through a surgery rotation without suturing once? Very common. Shadowing for most of the rotation? Very common. Rounds maybe once a week or less often? Again, common. Doing literally nothing on some (or many) days? Common.

The whole "step up and get aggressive" thing only works in some settings. I've seen plenty of students get a flat "no" when they decided to be more assertive to do certain procedures (which was within their scope of education). Many staff and other people working at the hospital don't even know who the students are or why they're there. This includes attendings.

This whole concept of being thrown into a hospital at a strict 630am start and being told to be assertive and make the most of it doesn't really work. It's telling someone on the bottom of the hierarchy to walk around asking random people to teach you things. That's fine in a supplementary role but there has to be core requirements.

Schools need to set quotas for each rotation (ex. suture X times). Pay the preceptor a much bigger stipend via spending less on nonsense within the school. Have the dean visit the sites and help implement some level of structure within the facility. Often times it's random attendings who enjoy teaching that end up doing most of it during the rotation. There's no structure, or framework or anything organized at all.

I actually attend a pretty good DO school and have had mixed experiences. The positives have come because I've gone digging and tried to get the most out of it. But spending half the time shadowing, only being allowed to suture with 1 surgeon (not the other 15+), going a week without seeing any deliveries and spending some days doing literally nothing... It gets ridiculous at times. What's more irritating is seeing SGU with better sites.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[sab3156]

DO rotations are going to suck and be at low tier places. That's just part of the package.

 

[MedicineZ0Z]

MS-III here and I find that it's pretty evident most DO rotations aren't so great. On average it seems sites have 1-2 good rotations in terms of education with everything else being luck of the draw. Now the people at these sites are pretty nice and friendly. Attendings do put in a fair amount of effort. The core issues seem to stem from the school itself.

There's no clinical structure and curriculum that actually makes sense. Going through a surgery rotation without suturing once? Very common. Shadowing for most of the rotation? Very common. Rounds maybe once a week or less often? Again, common. Doing literally nothing on some (or many) days? Common.

The whole "step up and get aggressive" thing only works in some settings. I've seen plenty of students get a flat "no" when they decided to be more assertive to do certain procedures (which was within their scope of education). Many staff and other people working at the hospital don't even know who the students are or why they're there. This includes attendings.

This whole concept of being thrown into a hospital at a strict 630am start and being told to be assertive and make the most of it doesn't really work. It's telling someone on the bottom of the hierarchy to walk around asking random people to teach you things. That's fine in a supplementary role but there has to be core requirements.

Schools need to set quotas for each rotation (ex. suture X times). Pay the preceptor a much bigger stipend via spending less on nonsense within the school. Have the dean visit the sites and help implement some level of structure within the facility. Often times it's random attendings who enjoy teaching that end up doing most of it during the rotation. There's no structure, or framework or anything organized at all.

I actually attend a pretty good DO school and have had mixed experiences. The positives have come because I've gone digging and tried to get the most out of it. But spending half the time shadowing, only being allowed to suture with 1 surgeon (not the other 15+), going a week without seeing any deliveries and spending some days doing literally nothing... It gets ridiculous at times. What's more irritating is seeing SGU with better sites.

Pretty true. Aside from a couple DO schools, most provide subpar clinical education.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

You can still rise above the poor clinical educations by busting your ass to get into an ACGME program who will remdy that training deficit. Programs that are less competitive due to poor locations or are in less competitive specialities are often more accessible to DO candidates.

 

[Mad Jack]

MS-III here and I find that it's pretty evident most DO rotations aren't so great. On average it seems sites have 1-2 good rotations in terms of education with everything else being luck of the draw. Now the people at these sites are pretty nice and friendly. Attendings do put in a fair amount of effort. The core issues seem to stem from the school itself.

There's no clinical structure and curriculum that actually makes sense. Going through a surgery rotation without suturing once? Very common. Shadowing for most of the rotation? Very common. Rounds maybe once a week or less often? Again, common. Doing literally nothing on some (or many) days? Common.

The whole "step up and get aggressive" thing only works in some settings. I've seen plenty of students get a flat "no" when they decided to be more assertive to do certain procedures (which was within their scope of education). Many staff and other people working at the hospital don't even know who the students are or why they're there. This includes attendings.

This whole concept of being thrown into a hospital at a strict 630am start and being told to be assertive and make the most of it doesn't really work. It's telling someone on the bottom of the hierarchy to walk around asking random people to teach you things. That's fine in a supplementary role but there has to be core requirements.

Schools need to set quotas for each rotation (ex. suture X times). Pay the preceptor a much bigger stipend via spending less on nonsense within the school. Have the dean visit the sites and help implement some level of structure within the facility. Often times it's random attendings who enjoy teaching that end up doing most of it during the rotation. There's no structure, or framework or anything organized at all.

I actually attend a pretty good DO school and have had mixed experiences. The positives have come because I've gone digging and tried to get the most out of it. But spending half the time shadowing, only being allowed to suture with 1 surgeon (not the other 15+), going a week without seeing any deliveries and spending some days doing literally nothing... It gets ridiculous at times. What's more irritating is seeing SGU with better sites.

I had like, none of the problems you named. Your site sucks, don't make it sound like all DOs have bad clinical educations.

 

[DO2015CA]

Not suturing once is ridiculous. If that’s the norm at your school I’m sorry. That hasn’t happened at any site that I’m aware of and most of my classmates are pretty vocal. I was first assist and pretty much closing everything by myself with guidance. Maybe I got lucky but one semester through MS3 I can say I’ve had all good experiences. I have never spent an entire rotation shadowing. I’ve Seen plenty of path, learned how to write notes, and develop ddx. Only qualm would be lack of residency hospitals to rotate at in order to
Learn how to function as a team member.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

MS-III here and I find that it's pretty evident most DO rotations aren't so great. On average it seems sites have 1-2 good rotations in terms of education with everything else being luck of the draw. Now the people at these sites are pretty nice and friendly. Attendings do put in a fair amount of effort. The core issues seem to stem from the school itself.

There's no clinical structure and curriculum that actually makes sense. Going through a surgery rotation without suturing once? Very common. Shadowing for most of the rotation? Very common. Rounds maybe once a week or less often? Again, common. Doing literally nothing on some (or many) days? Common.

The whole "step up and get aggressive" thing only works in some settings. I've seen plenty of students get a flat "no" when they decided to be more assertive to do certain procedures (which was within their scope of education). Many staff and other people working at the hospital don't even know who the students are or why they're there. This includes attendings.

This whole concept of being thrown into a hospital at a strict 630am start and being told to be assertive and make the most of it doesn't really work. It's telling someone on the bottom of the hierarchy to walk around asking random people to teach you things. That's fine in a supplementary role but there has to be core requirements.

Schools need to set quotas for each rotation (ex. suture X times). Pay the preceptor a much bigger stipend via spending less on nonsense within the school. Have the dean visit the sites and help implement some level of structure within the facility. Often times it's random attendings who enjoy teaching that end up doing most of it during the rotation. There's no structure, or framework or anything organized at all.

I actually attend a pretty good DO school and have had mixed experiences. The positives have come because I've gone digging and tried to get the most out of it. But spending half the time shadowing, only being allowed to suture with 1 surgeon (not the other 15+), going a week without seeing any deliveries and spending some days doing literally nothing... It gets ridiculous at times. What's more irritating is seeing SGU with better sites.

With @Mad Jack and @DO2015CA on this -- you're certainly not speaking for all of us. Never had any of those issues; I would say I had an excellent clinical education.

 

[kenjixshadow]

Did you not ask to suture? I don't see why an attending wouldn't let you close something small like a laparoscopic cut. Your experience sounds like you are mainly rotating in outpatients. Try to schedule your electives and 4th year rotations with inpatients or hospitals that have residency programs. You'll see a vastly different learning environment.

 

[17DOmed]

You can still rise above the poor clinical educations by busting your ass to get into an ACGME program who will remdy that training deficit. Programs that are less competitive due to poor locations or are in less competitive specialities are often more accessible to DO candidates.

First you have to look good on subIs and electives - for which we are ill equipped.

Did you not ask to suture? I don't see why an attending wouldn't let you close something small like a laparoscopic cut. Your experience sounds like you are mainly rotating in outpatients. Try to schedule your electives and 4th year rotations with inpatients or hospitals that have residency programs. You'll see a vastly different learning environment.

I did suture only by finding the attending who allowed it. I think most attendings were hesitant cause they had zero clue who had actual lessons on it.

Again, I attend a fairly good DO school and I'm in an urban area. You see the preceptor like twice a week on most rotations and spend a lot of the time with random attendings. If you're assertive like me, you get to do some stuff. If you're not assertive, you do absolutely nothing except observe, retract, write a few notes here and there.

 

[DocWinter]

My clinical years were excellent. You either had a bad site or your schools clinical years are poorly structured.

You're not the norm.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

My clinical years were excellent. You either had a bad site or your schools clinical years are poorly structured.

You're not the norm.

Unless he's at my school or our neighbors up north, this is nothing uncommon. I had an OB/Gyn rotation where I saw zero deliveries or pelvic surgeries and half the time was doing the doctor's billing. It was atrocious.

 

[17DOmed]

Unless he's at my school or our neighbors up north, this is nothing uncommon. I had an OB/Gyn rotation where I saw zero deliveries or pelvic surgeries and half the time was doing the doctor's billing. It was atrocious.

Well at least we do some pelvic surgeries lol. I guarantee it's people from the same couple schools (msu, tcom, etc) who have had good exps.

 

[DO2015CA]

First you have to look good on subIs and electives - for which we are ill equipped.

I did suture only by finding the attending who allowed it. I think most attendings were hesitant cause they had zero clue who had actual lessons on it.

Again, I attend a fairly good DO school and I'm in an urban area. You see the preceptor like twice a week on most rotations and spend a lot of the time with random attendings. If you're assertive like me, you get to do some stuff. If you're not assertive, you do absolutely nothing except observe, retract, write a few notes here and there.

Seeing your preceptor 2x a week?!?!? Lol. Starting to think you don’t go to a fairly good DO school. This is crazy man. Are you antisocial so they give you the slip? No shade but that is a nightmare and there has to be something else going on behind the scene.

Plus the good DO schools are ranked based on the quality of the rotations. If yours is truly that bad then by default you can’t go to a fairly good DO school.

 

[17DOmed]

Seeing your preceptor 2x a week?!?!? Lol. Starting to think you don’t go to a fairly good DO school. This is crazy man. Are you antisocial so they give you the slip? No shade but that is a nightmare and there has to be something else going on behind the scene.

Plus the good DO schools are ranked based on the quality of the rotations. If yours is truly that bad then by default you can’t go to a fairly good DO school.

Preceptors often work at 2+ hospitals/locations. I guess you can say in family med you see the preceptor daily but that's it. The preceptor is also outpatient on a few rotations whereas half your time is inpatient with random DRs. Often it's a random one who likes teaching who does the bulk of the work.
And no I'm not antisocial. I've actually had very good evals and probably do more than almost all students due to assertiveness. But what about students who are more on the quiet side? Should they be left out entirely?

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Seeing your preceptor 2x a week?!?!? Lol. Starting to think you don’t go to a fairly good DO school. This is crazy man. Are you antisocial so they give you the slip? No shade but that is a nightmare and there has to be something else going on behind the scene.

Plus the good DO schools are ranked based on the quality of the rotations. If yours is truly that bad then by default you can’t go to a fairly good DO school.

I go to a "fairly good" DO school and I happen to know where the OP goes and it is a "fairly good" DO school too. This is not uncommon. I had a friend that went into the first day of his internal medicine rotation and the preceptor was not there. He called the preceptor and was told to take the month off and just come in on the last day to fill out the eval and add any comments he wanted. This was not some one off situation. It has happened at this one rotation site over and over again. I have many more stories that are similar. Some of my classmates (6 at the same time) were rotating at a major hospital in the area that's a residency site for that specialty and only saw 1 patient a day because they don't care about students.

 

[17DOmed]

I go to a "fairly good" DO school and I happen to know where the OP goes and it is a "fairly good" DO school too. This is not uncommon. I had a friend that went into the first day of his internal medicine rotation and the preceptor was not there. He called the preceptor and was told to take the month off and just come in on the last day to fill out the eval and add any comments he wanted. This was not some one off situation. It has happened at this one rotation site over and over again. I have many more stories that are similar. Some of my classmates (6 at the same time) were rotating at a major hospital in the area that's a residency site for that specialty and only saw 1 patient a day because they don't care about students.

lol.
Curious now, how many patients daily is typical for IM (our 2nd best rotation)? Our site does have a residency program + rotating 4th years but they only see 2 patients daily.

 

[DO2015CA]

Preceptors often work at 2+ hospitals/locations. I guess you can say in family med you see the preceptor daily but that's it. The preceptor is also outpatient on a few rotations whereas half your time is inpatient with random DRs. Often it's a random one who likes teaching who does the bulk of the work.
And no I'm not antisocial. I've actually had very good evals and probably do more than almost all students due to assertiveness. But what about students who are more on the quiet side? Should they be left out entirely?

I go to a "fairly good" DO school and I happen to know where the OP goes and it is a "fairly good" DO school too. This is not uncommon. I had a friend that went into the first day of his internal medicine rotation and the preceptor was not there. He called the preceptor and was told to take the month off and just come in on the last day to fill out the eval and add any comments he wanted. This was not some one off situation. It has happened at this one rotation site over and over again. I have many more stories that are similar. Some of my classmates (6 at the same time) were rotating at a major hospital in the area that's a residency site for that specialty and only saw 1 patient a day because they don't care about students.

Amazing. If y’all are saying it I won’t argue with you but that’s amazing. I couldn’t imagine my school allowing that. We have 2 way evals with them not using preceptors if there are bad experiences. Let’s hope with the merger that requirements for every part of our education is increased.

 

[17DOmed]

Amazing. If y’all are saying it I won’t argue with you but that’s amazing. I couldn’t imagine my school allowing that. We have 2 way evals with them not using preceptors if there are bad experiences. Let’s hope with the merger that requirements for every part of our education is increased.

Well how do you classify a bad enough experience? When the preceptor is very friendly, most people won't give bad enough evals. Also, most people don't know what constitutes a good rotation when they begin 3rd year.

 

[DO2015CA]

Well how do you classify a bad enough experience? When the preceptor is very friendly, most people won't give bad enough evals. Also, most people don't know what constitutes a good rotation when they begin 3rd year.

What you describe is a very bad experience. I agree with not knowing what to expect. For me, IM consisted of holding 8ish patients a day usually carried over from before refilling the load after discharges. Was expected 6-whenever (anywhere from 2pm-6pm) shifts where I’d preround on continuing patients then meet up after. Was required to present along with any labs or imaging I wanted. Would then watch them go through the encounter again. They would choose the patients I carry with mainly bread and butter cases you’ll see all the time (chf, diabetes, pna, etc). I then wrote notes on the patient for practice because they’d end up dictating their note anyway. If something cool happened I’d be sent in to do a H&P just to see if I’d learn something. As for curriculum, they took common hospitalists dx and required a short ppt on pathophys, ddx, labs/tests, and management. Still had good amount of time to study for shelf but I felt like it was a good experience. We get one hospitalist IM and one outpatient IM (my school requires 2 IM) at my rotation site. I worked hard and felt like an idiot most times but at the end I truly felt like I learned something.

 

[Trollest]

First you have to look good on subIs and electives - for which we are ill equipped.

I did suture only by finding the attending who allowed it. I think most attendings were hesitant cause they had zero clue who had actual lessons on it.

Again, I attend a fairly good DO school and I'm in an urban area. You see the preceptor like twice a week on most rotations and spend a lot of the time with random attendings. If you're assertive like me, you get to do some stuff. If you're not assertive, you do absolutely nothing except observe, retract, write a few notes here and there.

IF possible, what's the name of the school OP? You can pm me.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Unless he's at my school or our neighbors up north, this is nothing uncommon. I had an OB/Gyn rotation where I saw zero deliveries or pelvic surgeries and half the time was doing the doctor's billing. It was atrocious.

I think this has to be pretty unusual tbh. This is unless your doctor is pure gyno.

 

[t5Nitro]

I go to a "fairly good" DO school and I happen to know where the OP goes and it is a "fairly good" DO school too. This is not uncommon. I had a friend that went into the first day of his internal medicine rotation and the preceptor was not there. He called the preceptor and was told to take the month off and just come in on the last day to fill out the eval and add any comments he wanted. This was not some one off situation. It has happened at this one rotation site over and over again. I have many more stories that are similar. Some of my classmates (6 at the same time) were rotating at a major hospital in the area that's a residency site for that specialty and only saw 1 patient a day because they don't care about students.

I've had some bad rotations experiences already too. Not uncommon. Luck of the draw where you get to do your clinicals. Just move along and study for step 2 and hope like hell you learn enough to pass level 2 PE.

 

[17DOmed]

What you describe is a very bad experience. I agree with not knowing what to expect. For me, IM consisted of holding 8ish patients a day usually carried over from before refilling the load after discharges. Was expected 6-whenever (anywhere from 2pm-6pm) shifts where I’d preround on continuing patients then meet up after. Was required to present along with any labs or imaging I wanted. Would then watch them go through the encounter again. They would choose the patients I carry with mainly bread and butter cases you’ll see all the time (chf, diabetes, pna, etc). I then wrote notes on them for practice because they’d end up dictating their note anyway. If something cool happened I’d be sent in to do an H&P just to see if I’d learn something. As for curriculum, they took common hospitalists dx and required a short ppt on pathophys, ddx, labs/tests, and management. Still had good amount of time to study for shelf but I felt like it was a good experience. We get one hospitalist IM and one outpatient IM (my school requires 2 IM) at my rotation site. I worked hard and felt like an idiot most times but at the end I truly felt like I learned something.

Definitely sounds like a good exp.

I've had some bad rotations experiences already too. Not uncommon. Luck of the draw where you get to do your clinicals. Just move along and study for step 2 and hope like hell you learn enough to pass level 2 PE.

Any examples?

 

[Trollest]

Can this happen at school such as KCU? I am seriously confused because my undertsanding was that we were ok as long as we had the clinical sites?

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I think this has to be pretty unusual tbh. This is unless your doctor is pure gyno.

Nope. He didn't want to bother bringing students with him.

 

[Giovanotto]

Nope. He didn't want to bother bringing students with him.

How many of the rotations were good versus bad, would you say? (3rd year).

 

[DrfluffyMD]

I've had some bad rotations experiences already too. Not uncommon. Luck of the draw where you get to do your clinicals. Just move along and study for step 2 and hope like hell you learn enough to pass level 2 PE.

It is so unfair that some DO schools have substandard rotations like this. When I was a med student I had the fortune of doing backtable work on a liver graft with a transplant fellow during my core surgery rotation. I wish every med school is like that.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

How many of the rotations were good versus bad, would you say? (3rd year).

If i'm being generous about 1/3 bad, 1/3 okay and 1/3 good.

 

[DO2015CA]

If i'm being generous about 1/3 bad, 1/3 okay and 1/3 good.

To your knowledge does your school pay for rotations

 

[Giovanotto]

If i'm being generous about 1/3 bad, 1/3 okay and 1/3 good.

Sucks, but I'll take it. I expected as much.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

To your knowledge does your school pay for rotations

Someone told me we pay $1000 weekly for each rotation. It's a great scam for these preceptors that don't care and don't teach.

 

[SLC]

Well at least we do some pelvic surgeries lol. I guarantee it's people from the same couple schools (msu, tcom, etc) who have had good exps.

I was at ATSU-SOMA, I first assisted on all surgeries. I even sutured an aortic valve replacement in place during one day on my gen surg rotation when they allowed me to join a CT surgeon. I delivered 15-20 babies vaginally and 1st assisted on around that many c-sections. It was scary at first but my preceptor was great at teaching me.

On IM, I carried 4-5 patients at a time, wrote H&p’s and daily notes on them, presented them in rounds, and basically functioned as a subintern during 3rd year. During outpatient rotations I generally did less, but still went in to see every patient before the attending did, and gave a mini-presentation before we’d go in and see them together.

I was very satisfied with my clinical training. And in residency, from day 1 my evaluations generally contained comments like “excellent clinical acumen, advanced procedure skills” etc. My PD commented on this multiple times during intern year when he precepted me on GYN procedures and I&D’s etc.

I don’t think my school was considered to be a “top” DO program (whatever that means). And I don’t think it would be on your “list”.

I’m not sure where you go, but it sounds like either you’re getting shafted, or your attendings may not trust you to do stuff (because that definitely happens). I’ve done that to med students here in residency. If they don’t inspire confidence that they’ll perform a pelvic exam or office procedure well, I generally don’t offer to let them do it. I’m not the only one who does this either. And this is at a top 20 MD school.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

I was at ATSU-SOMA, I first assisted on all surgeries. I even sutured an aortic valve replacement in place during one day on my gen surg rotation when they allowed me to join a CT surgeon. I delivered 15-20 babies vaginally and 1st assisted on around that many c-sections. It was scary at first but my preceptor was great at teaching me.

On IM, I carried 4-5 patients at a time, wrote H&p’s and daily notes on them, presented them in rounds, and basically functioned as a subintern during 3rd year. During outpatient rotations I generally did less, but still went in to see every patient before the attending did, and gave a mini-presentation before we’d go in and see them together.

I was very satisfied with my clinical training. And in residency, from day 1 my evaluations generally contained comments like “excellent clinical acumen, advanced procedure skills” etc. My PD commented on this multiple times during intern year when he precepted me on GYN procedures and I&D’s etc.

I don’t think my school was considered to be a “top” DO program (whatever that means). And I don’t think it would be on your “list”.

I’m not sure where you go, but it sounds like either you’re getting shafted, or your attendings may not trust you to do stuff (because that definitely happens). I’ve done that to med students here in residency. If they don’t inspire confidence that they’ll perform a pelvic exam or office procedure well, I generally don’t offer to let them do it. I’m not the only one who does this either. And this is at a top 20 MD school.

This is the appeopriate level of clinical training for med student. Btw which top 20 school is that?

 

[17DOmed]

I was at ATSU-SOMA, I first assisted on all surgeries. I even sutured an aortic valve replacement in place during one day on my gen surg rotation when they allowed me to join a CT surgeon. I delivered 15-20 babies vaginally and 1st assisted on around that many c-sections. It was scary at first but my preceptor was great at teaching me.

On IM, I carried 4-5 patients at a time, wrote H&p’s and daily notes on them, presented them in rounds, and basically functioned as a subintern during 3rd year. During outpatient rotations I generally did less, but still went in to see every patient before the attending did, and gave a mini-presentation before we’d go in and see them together.

I was very satisfied with my clinical training. And in residency, from day 1 my evaluations generally contained comments like “excellent clinical acumen, advanced procedure skills” etc. My PD commented on this multiple times during intern year when he precepted me on GYN procedures and I&D’s etc.

I don’t think my school was considered to be a “top” DO program (whatever that means). And I don’t think it would be on your “list”.

I’m not sure where you go, but it sounds like either you’re getting shafted, or your attendings may not trust you to do stuff (because that definitely happens). I’ve done that to med students here in residency. If they don’t inspire confidence that they’ll perform a pelvic exam or office procedure well, I generally don’t offer to let them do it. I’m not the only one who does this either. And this is at a top 20 MD school.

I'm doing more than most students so clearly it can't be a case of not being trusted.

 

[DocWinter]

Well at least we do some pelvic surgeries lol. I guarantee it's people from the same couple schools (msu, tcom, etc) who have had good exps.

Nope. I'm from ACOM. We actually get great sites. Similar experience to the AT Still student.
The OP and Albino are generalizing or extrapolating from singular experiences. Sure some times it is hit or miss but the majority of DO students get at least adequate clinicals.

 

[SLC]

I'm doing more than most students so clearly it can't be a case of not being trusted.

I hope (for your sake) that you’re right. I have my doubts. And even if it is happening, it’s likely got nothing to do with you or anything you’ve said or done; but more with the preceptor and his/her fear of lawsuits.

But if you well and truly are right, and it’s a systemic problem at your school, you should be speaking with your dean about this and demanding a better experience for your tuition dollar. Your experience is not the norm, at all, and it should not be tolerated. My school would have discontinued any rotation where this happened, even mid-month if necessary.

 

[DrMcLovin]

People with these horrible rotations need to call their schools out. If you make an account just to post this, you should have no problem naming the school. That would help pre-meds make an informed school choice rather than following the SDN ranking of State/“established” schools > everything else.

 

[Scrubs101]

Lol duh. Our MD counterparts are rotating at 500+ bed hospital with millions upon million in research grants, teaching grants. They have well structured and highly regarded residencies in every field they rotate rotate through. They have fellows. And so on.

DO schools just need a doctor in a private clinic or community hospital with nothing going on to say 'fine, i'll take some of your students'

Any DO school that would've met the bare minimum to become an MD school, would've done it already lol

Over generalizations are great and all...but

Not all MD schools meet the description made in the first paragraph.

No where near all DO schools make up the description in the second statement.

Plenty of DO schools far exceed the basic minimum to become an MD schools, they just take pride in being a DO school (wow schocker!!!). There are even a solid handful of DO schools that have clinical resources/research oppurtunities/residency #’s that out do some lower tier MD schools.

Too many people make these stupid a** blanket statements on here that give the letters DO a bad name to those that dont understand this is FAR from the usual.

 

[Goro]

I hope (for your sake) that you’re right. I have my doubts. And even if it is happening, it’s likely got nothing to do with you or anything you’ve said or done; but more with the preceptor and his/her fear of lawsuits.

But if you well and truly are right, and it’s a systemic problem at your school, you should be speaking with your dean about this and demanding a better experience for your tuition dollar. Your experience is not the norm, at all, and it should not be tolerated. My school would have discontinued any rotation where this happened, even mid-month if necessary.

Make that: speaking to the Clinical Deans and THE Dean!

 

[t5Nitro]

It is so unfair that some DO schools have substandard rotations like this. When I was a med student I had the fortune of doing backtable work on a liver graft with a transplant fellow during my core surgery rotation. I wish every med school is like that.

My med school is great. Not all the rotation sites are. I heard my surgery preceptor is awesome so I'm looking forward to that.

 

[atomheart]

Little known secret, a lot of MD rotations can also be poor--I asked MD students who were rotating with me and the responses were unilateral: everyone will shadow at some point, and rotations at academic centers wont predict the quality of education you get despite access to all the resources you could ever want. It's notoriously difficult to standardize clinical rotations.

It's also difficult to predict how good clinical rotations are at a school from year to year, so calling out individual schools makes little sense. Every DO school has rotation churn. Hate to be the guy that uses the term, but school bashing is really unprofessional. Medical education in this decade can be ineffective, but it is not a scam. Eventually it ends, and most of us move on with our careers successfully. A poor rotation or two wont cripple your career, and there are plenty of opportunities to get the training you desire.

I don't take crap from people if they can't prove anything about what type of experience I had versus anyone else. If you feel like most of your rotations were poor, keep it to yourself, and look for residencies where you can better control the quality of training you get. In the meantime take control of your own education. That's what matters.

 

[68PGunner]

Make that: speaking to the Clinical Deans and THE Dean!

And have that label of being "unprofessional" being on your MSPE. No way.

I do agree w/ the poster of publicly calling out this school.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Nope. I'm from ACOM. We actually get great sites. Similar experience to the AT Still student.
The OP and Albino are generalizing or extrapolating from singular experiences. Sure some times it is hit or miss but the majority of DO students get at least adequate clinicals.

It's not single experience. It would be okay if I got unlucky, but when I talk to kids from my school and multiple campuses/colleges experiencing similar things, I comment on it. That said, I'm not trying to say every clinical experience sucked, but this type of terrible training shouldn't be permitted at any school and it's almost exclusive to the osteopathic world.

 

[Rekt]

It's not single experience. It would be okay if I got unlucky, but when I talk to kids from my school and multiple campuses/colleges experiencing similar things, I comment on it. That said, I'm not trying to say every clinical experience sucked, but this type of terrible training shouldn't be permitted at any school and it's almost exclusive to the osteopathic world.

It's because people don't want to face reality. I'm also at a "good" school and it's not the same one as yours, not sure about OP, but it's just a reality that DO rotations suck. The "amazing rotations" described in this thread should be the absolute bare minimum. Oh you're pre-rounding/seeing patients before attending then presenting? Discussing A/Ps? Wow! Shocker. Suturing and tiny I/Ds, whoa now! Even if you have a truly amazing rotation, it's likely an outlier. Randomly posting about it in some thread isn't going to remove the perception that most of DO rotations are not up to par. I do agree that students need to lash out and speak out about their school's crappy rotations, but that's not going to happen and it's only going to get worse with the DO school proliferation.

 

[Goro]

And have that label of being "unprofessional" being on your MSPE. No way.

I do agree w/ the poster of publicly calling out this school.

Stop with the fear of retaliation memes already. There's nothing unprofessional about saying "I'm not learning anything..I'm literally not doing anything. It's only shadowing".

 

[Giovanotto]

Little known secret, a lot of MD rotations can also be poor--I asked MD students who were rotating with me and the responses were unilateral: everyone will shadow at some point, and rotations at academic centers wont predict the quality of education you get despite access to all the resources you could ever want. It's notoriously difficult to standardize clinical rotations.

It's also difficult to predict how good clinical rotations are at a school from year to year, so calling out individual schools makes little sense. Every DO school has rotation churn. Hate to be the guy that uses the term, but school bashing is really unprofessional. Medical education in this decade can be ineffective, but it is not a scam. Eventually it ends, and most of us move on with our careers successfully. A poor rotation or two wont cripple your career, and there are plenty of opportunities to get the training you desire.

I don't take crap from people if they can't prove anything about what type of experience I had versus anyone else. If you feel like most of your rotations were poor, keep it to yourself, and look for residencies where you can better control the quality of training you get. In the meantime take control of your own education. That's what matters.

You're joking right? Please nobody take this advice. Most schools already lack transparency and you want to go ahead and perpetuate that by eliminating consumer transparency too? Are you so foolish as to not see what the consequences of that would be? Good god, man, think before you speak. Nobody is condoning trashing a school, but if their clinical rotations are a dud you better believe people will be vocal about it.

 

[MedicineZ0Z]

Stop with the fear of retaliation memes already. There's nothing unprofessional about saying "I'm not learning anything..I'm literally not doing anything. It's only shadowing".

False. If the deans were very bright they would have this under control already. Complaining just has you labeled and makes it personal because you didnt fall in line like everyone else.
Also...

Students haven't had another 3rd year to make comparisons to - what is crappy, average or good or excellent is an unknown concept unless you have experienced all of the above several times. This is a big reason not many people complain. As long as the preceptor teaches a bit, is there sometimes and you learn a couple things while not having a hard time with staff/doctors - most people go home not being angry = no formal complaining.

It's because people don't want to face reality. I'm also at a "good" school and it's not the same one as yours, not sure about OP, but it's just a reality that DO rotations suck. The "amazing rotations" described in this thread should be the absolute bare minimum. Oh you're pre-rounding/seeing patients before attending then presenting? Discussing A/Ps? Wow! Shocker. Suturing and tiny I/Ds, whoa now! Even if you have a truly amazing rotation, it's likely an outlier. Randomly posting about it in some thread isn't going to remove the perception that most of DO rotations are not up to par. I do agree that students need to lash out and speak out about their school's crappy rotations, but that's not going to happen and it's only going to get worse with the DO school proliferation.

Very true.
Reality is that DO students don't suck as I think that was the belief years ago. It's not years 1 and 2 either, those are fine. It's the rotation sites themselves.

 

[arcus]

Lol duh. Our MD counterparts are rotating at 500+ bed hospital with millions upon million in research grants, teaching grants. They have well structured and highly regarded residencies in every field they rotate rotate through. They have fellows. And so on.

MD student here, state university that is flush with cash and palacial buildings, and yet ... well structured? highly regarded residencies? in every field we rotate through?

Not true at all. I get asked often whether I want to do my Residency at my university and I never answer them. Not impressed with the hospital in the slightest. It is one of the largest in my state too.

You are going to be a Doctor. You are doing what few Americans can do. You are entering a profession where you will make a massive impact on people (immediate and delayed) and get paid well regardless of third party payers. Keep your eye on the prize.

Fact: in MD schools once students pass Step 1, we are pushed through 3rd year rotations like cattle with little to any assurance the physicians will give a rat’s about you. The complaints by MD students are legion, both about physician faculty and admins being disengaged. Once third year is done, you are on your own. No guidance on how to prepare for Step 2.

medical education is a business regardless of MD or DO program.
this talk of “millions upon millions in grants” does not translate into physician faculty who are passionate about engaging medical students, mentoring us or showing interest in our chosen career. They are mostly trying to make the best out of their own dismal existence to encourage us or show us anything worth their time.

Any DO school that would've met the bare minimum to become an MD school,would've done it already lol

And you would still be in the same scenario either way.

What I get out of my medical education has everything to do what I put into it despite the burnt out, bitter, angry majority faculty physicians and craven admins.

Do yourself a favor: embrace your rotations, crack the books and be pleasantly surprised when a physician faculty shows interest in you. I love my time in the hospital because I give my patients and any staff that get near me my heart and soul. For those who are misanthropic physician faculty, it is their loss. It will get better down the road because I am committed to my future regardless of those around me

 

[MedicineZ0Z]

You're joking right? Please nobody take this advice. Most schools already lack transparency and you want to go ahead and perpetuate that by eliminating consumer transparency too? Are you so foolish as to not see what the consequences of that would be? Good god, man, think before you speak. Nobody is condoning trashing a school, but if their clinical rotations are a dud you better believe people will be vocal about it.

Many DO schools have far too many clinical sites. Each of those has their own rotations and subsites. It gets too confusing and hard to really trash one school. It's the lack of broad regulation that is the problem.

 

[MedicineZ0Z]

MD student here, state university that is flush with cash and palacial buildings, and yet ... well structured? highly regarded residencies? in every field we rotate through?

Not true at all. I get asked often whether I want to do my Residency at my university and I never answer them. Not impressed with the hospital in the slightest. It is one of the largest in my state too.

You are going to be a Doctor. You are doing what few Americans can do. You are entering a profession where you will make a massive impact on people (immediate and delayed) and get paid well regardless of third party payers. Keep your eye on the prize.

Fact: in MD schools once students pass Step 1, we are pushed through 3rd year rotations like cattle with little to any assurance the physicians will give a rat’s about you. The complaints by MD students are legion, both about physician faculty and admins being disengaged. Once third year is done, you are on your own. No guidance on how to prepare for Step 2.

medical education is a business regardless of MD or DO program.
this talk of “millions upon millions in grants” does not translate into physician faculty who are passionate about engaging medical students, mentoring us or showing interest in our chosen career. They are mostly trying to make the best out of their own dismal existence to encourage us or show us anything worth their time.



And you would still be in the same scenario either way.

What I get out of my medical education has everything to do what I put into it despite the burnt out, bitter, angry majority faculty physicians and craven admins.

Do yourself a favor: embrace your rotations, crack the books and be pleasantly surprised when a physician faculty shows interest in you. I love my time in the hospital because I give my patients and any staff that get near me my heart and soul. For those who are misanthropic physician faculty, it is their loss. It will get better down the road because I am committed to my future regardless of those around me

This is all nice and dandy but when you have a very limited number of procedures or deliveries or suture practice (or whatever) under your belt. If any at all... it's a much bigger challenge to look good on subIs and be well prepared for intern year. Repetition matters and doing something 0 times or once makes you look incompetent later on.