Abolishing MCAT, food for thought

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srirachamayonnaise

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Kind of crazy that WaPo published a piece written by two pre-meds. One of the writers (aspiring physician-scientist) is clearly gunning for a t5 given his Linkedin profile... the other one is a doctor-in-progress (kid you not!) (with his eponymous website which serves no purpose other than advertising how great he is)... seriously, people need to stop self-promoting. Get into med school first before taglining with physician or doctor in it. This kind of blatant self-promotion should be prohibited. We don't want people who are egoistical to come into a profession where altruism is the key.


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Kind of crazy that WaPo published a piece written by two pre-meds. One of the writers (aspiring physician-scientist) is clearly gunning for a t5 given his Linkedin profile... the other one is a doctor-in-progress (kid you not!) (with his eponymous website, that's a bad form if you are applying to med school)... seriously, people need to stop self-promoting. Get into med school first before taglining with physician or doctor in it.
A “doctor in progress”, but not even in med school… 💀
 
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i cant pay for washington post can you screenshot it. im poor

edit: nevermind I was able to infiltrate the washington post security defense landmines. the rewards of being a genius top g
 
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We don’t propose eliminating the test, as it does measure core competencies — organic chemistry, general chemistry, biology, etc. — required for medical school. But the AAMC should make the MCAT a pass/fail exam to remove barriers for disadvantaged minority applicants, while still ensuring that students are prepared for medical school.

Going P/F isn't the same as abolish...
 
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i cant pay for washington post can you screenshot it. im poor

edit: nevermind I was able to infiltrate the washington post security defense landmines. the rewards of being a genius top g
what happened to Kevin Durant? He just joined today
 
"The American Association of Medical Colleges (AAMC) currently mandates that medical school admissions teams include the MCAT score among the many variables they use in evaluating applicants."

That's news to me.
 
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Abolishing the MCAT would disadvantage all the applicants whose GPA is on the lower side, many of whom have imperfect grades due to socioeconomic disadvantage. Not a good idea.
 
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Abolishing the MCAT would disadvantage all the applicants whose GPA is on the lower side, many of whom have imperfect grades due to socioeconomic disadvantage. Not a good idea.
To be fair, the opinion authors want to de-emphasize the MCAT by making it pass/fail, not abolish it. In their view a pass/fail MCAT would help disadvantaged groups.

Overall they do make some good points, but they don't seem to possess a very deep (or accurate) understanding of the issue. Many schools will not de-emphasize the MCAT for one simple reason: it's part of the USNWR ranking system.
 
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To be fair, the opinion authors want to de-emphasize the MCAT by making it pass/fail, not abolish it. In their view a pass/fail MCAT would help disadvantaged groups.

Overall they do make some good points, but they don't seem to possess a very deep (or accurate) understanding of the issue. Many schools will not de-emphasize the MCAT for one simple reason: it's part of the USNWR ranking system.
You also have publications that show GPA+MCAT is predictive for student outcomes than either alone. They definitely need a better argument going into the history of standardized tests themselves. If licensing goes test oprional, I'd be more for lowering the influence of the MCAT, but that won't work well.
 
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Lists the different MCAT matriculation stats of every race except for Asians. Classic.
 
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Lists the different MCAT matriculation stats of every race except for Asians. Classic.
About to say that…Asian hate or neglect is real in this country. If you check the authors profile it makes you wonder whether they scored low on the MCATs and advocated for themselves given that they got all soft bs.
 
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That "food for thought" was just what I wanted for lunch and the comments were a good dessert.

Depending on the Supreme Court decision next spring/summer, I could see schools/AAMC dropping the MCAT so as to avoid having evidence that they "discriminate" by choosing applicants with lower scores over applicants with higher scores. Fewer objective measures (as objective as it can be when money buys the opportunity for a better score) means that it is harder to compare applicants and say who is "best".
 
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It doesn't make sense that buying a set of used books that cost >200$ (what I used to score well) to study for a test is somehow discriminatory against low SES students, but a several thousand dollar application process is not. Also, the recommendation at the end to remove/de-emphasise the MCAT but put additional weight on the Casper and PREview makes no sense to me. The MCAT (though it has flaws) is at least objective and understandable. PREview and Casper dont seem to set any higher standard for objectively measuring useful skills or traits. In my understanding tests of objective knowledge are an equalizer because everyone sits the same exam. Yes it has flaws and yes it could be improved. But if we remove every metric from the process then it will just inappropriately emphasize other aspects (undergrad institution, personal statement, or a ridiculous amount of volunteering hours) which doesn't seem to help anyone.

Also if you are interested in learning more about standardized testing I would also strongly recommend "The Aristocracy of Talent" by Adrian Wooldrige. It gives an excellent background on where many of these ideas come from.
 
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It irks me that the authors (the second one at the very least) clearly get ahead by taking advantage of resources that disadvantaged applicants would not have access to while also pretending to care about more fairness in the process.
 
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It irks me that the authors (the second one at the very least) clearly get ahead by taking advantage of resources that disadvantaged applicants would not have access to while also pretending to advocate for more fairness in the process.
completely cringy.... those are the people we don't want to have in medicine. Reminds me of SBF..
 
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This part stood out to me...

> His research spans disparities in vaccine distribution to consent in clinical trials and has been featured in The Lancet (2023)

I'm unsure how something can be past tense (has been featured) with a date that is forthcoming? Later on the page it lists the forthcoming Lancet article as an editorial, which... isn't usually described as "research".

> He also mentors 20+ students and welcomes their diverse perspectives on challenging medical issues.

This is also concerning. While peer-mentoring can be great, the fact that an undergrad is a major mentor to multiple students suggests that the school in question doesn't have robust mentoring systems in place.
 
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Well, they may be one Google search away from a crushed dream.
What I don't understand is if they have so much intelligence to get into all the labs and pubs, can't they (at least the second one) see the cringiness in that attempt at publicity? I think it's just poor judgment all over.
 
What I don't understand is if they have so much intelligence to get into all the labs and pubs, can't they (at least the second one) see the cringiness in that attempt at publicity? I think it's just poor judgment all over.
Having seen people in personal statements trash the labs they're coming from and talk about how they did all the work and their faculty (who are writing letters) weren't instrumental in the lab's work...

This really isn't that surprising to me. But it is fascinating to see some peoples view of their importance relative to their letter writers view.
 
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This part stood out to me...

> His research spans disparities in vaccine distribution to consent in clinical trials and has been featured in The Lancet (2023)

I'm unsure how something can be past tense (has been featured) with a date that is forthcoming? Later on the page it lists the forthcoming Lancet article as an editorial, which... isn't usually described as "research".

> He also mentors 20+ students and welcomes their diverse perspectives on challenging medical issues.

This is also concerning. While peer-mentoring can be great, the fact that an undergrad is a major mentor to multiple students suggests that the school in question doesn't have robust mentoring systems in place.
I mean it's complete exaggeration. The said author goes to Penn and it's easily verifiable with the school whether what he is boasting is truthful. I think if he's reading this thread, he should take the site down.
 
Oof. Also apparently the "featured research" published in PLOS was... an acknowledgement.

For people putting together applications... Please don't stretch your importance to the limits of belief. It's better to understate really cool things than overstate something that's average.
 
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that's his TEDx talk.... seriously... it looks like a high school cafeteria to me. Clearly anyone can record a talk and send it to TEDx for branding... He sounded so mediocre...

 
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Oof. Also apparently the "featured research" published in PLOS was... an acknowledgement.

For people putting together applications... Please don't stretch your importance to the limits of belief. It's better to understate really cool things than overstate something that's average.
he needs a reality check.
 
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The question we should really be asking ourselves is whether or not the MCAT is flawed. If applicants from a high SES background are able to do well because they can take more expensive prep courses, then the MCAT is nothing more than a game of random multiple choice questions that don’t mean anything. But the connection between SES and MCAT can actually be consequential if it means that high SES applicants grew up in an environment where they were able to develop their academic skills more, and it’s their academic background since kindergarten that’s helped them do well.

Is it fair to discredit the academic skills of high SES applicants just because of where they got those skills from? I don’t know the answer to
that.

It’s not a surprise to me that the AAMC has a million different statistics for everything related to med school applications, med student performance, residency applications etc. But they don’t have any data on attrition rates by race.
 
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It doesn't make sense that buying a set of used books that cost >200$ (what I used to score well) to study for a test is somehow discriminatory against low SES students, but a several thousand dollar application process is not. Also, the recommendation at the end to remove/de-emphasise the MCAT but put additional weight on the Casper and PREview makes no sense to me. The MCAT (though it has flaws) is at least objective and understandable. PREview and Casper dont seem to set any higher standard for objectively measuring useful skills or traits. In my understanding tests of objective knowledge are an equalizer because everyone sits the same exam. Yes it has flaws and yes it could be improved. But if we remove every metric from the process then it will just inappropriately emphasize other aspects (undergrad institution, personal statement, or a ridiculous amount of volunteering hours) which doesn't seem to help anyone.

Also if you are interested in learning more about standardized testing I would also strongly recommend "The Aristocracy of Talent" by Adrian Wooldrige. It gives an excellent background on where many of these ideas come from.
Umm many schools have waivers for application fees for disadvantaged students which means they’re not paying for those secondaries vs paying for an expensive standardized test they may not have the money to take more than once. Even with a waiver for a reduced fee for the MCAT it’s still expensive for students that are counting every dime and come from low socioeconomic backgrounds. Not everyone has money to splurge on expensive test prep books and an expensive test.
 
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Umm many schools have waivers for application fees for disadvantaged students which means they’re not paying for those secondaries vs paying for an expensive standardized test they may not have the money to take more than once. Even with a waiver for a reduced fee for the MCAT it’s still expensive for students that are counting every dime and come from low socioeconomic backgrounds. Not everyone has money to splurge on expensive test prep books and an expensive test.
Most libraries have prep books, and there are a ton of resources available online for free.

Many undergraduate programs have opportunities to get MCAT (and other) exams covered with documented financial hardship, often through career or pre-health offices.
 
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Most libraries have prep books, and there are a ton of resources available online for free.

Many undergraduate programs have opportunities to get MCAT (and other) exams covered with documented financial hardship, often through career or pre-health offices.
You’re assuming people have access to libraries. It might be hard to believe, but there are applicants living in serious poverty that may not have access to the amenities you’re used to and that many of us take for granted. The MCAT is not fully covered, there is a reduced cost for disadvantaged students.
 
You’re assuming people have access to libraries. It might be hard to believe, but there are applicants living in serious poverty that may not have access to the amenities you’re used to and that many of us take for granted. The MCAT is not fully covered, there is a reduced cost for disadvantaged students.
This is a fair point. However, access to a test is not the same as the assessment value of the test. I still think MCAT is a fairly reasonable test to assess readiness for medical school.
 
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This is a fair point. However, access to a test is not the same as the assessment value of the test. I still think MCAT is a fairly reasonable test to assess readiness for medical school.
I agree it’s a reasonable test, but I also agree that many are advantaged over others in terms of being able to do well and prep for the exam. I wouldn’t be bothered by a P/F MCAT. I don’t think the MCAT should be done away with completely since there does need to be some standard of measurement for readiness.
 
You’re assuming people have access to libraries. It might be hard to believe, but there are applicants living in serious poverty that may not have access to the amenities you’re used to and that many of us take for granted. The MCAT is not fully covered, there is a reduced cost for disadvantaged students.
Are you talking about international applicants?

Because there are very few places in the US where there aren't public libraries, and internet access is a common feature in those public libraries.

For context, I come from the rural US South and currently work with a lot of students "in serious poverty" to get basic needs met (like housing and food).
 
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Are you talking about international applicants?

Because there are very few places in the US where there aren't public libraries, and internet access is a common feature in those public libraries.
No, I’m talking about US students. Might want to get out into different areas of the country if you think everyone has access to public libraries let alone ones with MCAT prep resources.
 
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I agree it’s a reasonable test, but I also agree that many are advantaged over others in terms of being able to do well and prep for the exam. I wouldn’t be bothered by a P/F MCAT. I don’t think the MCAT should be done away with completely since there does need to be some standard of measurement for readiness.

If it’s P/F then what do we use to compare applicants to each other?
 
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This is also concerning. While peer-mentoring can be great, the fact that an undergrad is a major mentor to multiple students suggests that the school in question doesn't have robust mentoring systems in place.
I see it on applications and on WAMC profiles here all the time. Should I worry? :) :)
 
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I see it on applications and on WAMC profiles here all the time. Should I worry? :) :)
Yes you should. If you have any say in the admissions process, you should do your job to reject those people who lie through their teeth.
 
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If it’s P/F then what do we use to compare applicants to each other?
That’s the rub. It’s already so hard to do and not having a MCAT score would make it more challenging to compare applicants, but at the same time the MCAT scores are already becoming inflated, so where’s the medium? There are already other ways like CASPER/Altius, that programs are using to do this, but I’m not sure they’re good programs and I’d love to see some statistics about their accuracy in evaluating applicants. Definitely something that needs to be addressed before deciding on making changes regarding the MCAT.
 
No, I’m talking about US students. Might want to get out into different areas of the country if you think everyone has access to public libraries let alone ones with MCAT prep resources.
Can you provide some clarity? There are a bit over 17,000 public library branches. Looking at them mapped (US Public Library Map) there are relatively few places (mostly the very rural US West) that there isn't access. I'm not saying such a place doesn't exist, but I'd be very interested to see specific examples, since the current claim is that 96.4% of the US population is served by the US Public Library System.

And there are free MCAT prep resources available on the internet in more than sufficient amounts to do well on the exam.

I've lived and worked with students in the rural west, rural south and rural midwest, all of which are among the lowest densities of public libraries.
 
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I see it on applications and on WAMC profiles here all the time. Should I worry? :) :)
Probably. To me it either indicates someone is over-stating their role (i.e., mentor rather than peer-mentor) or the school isn't providing actual mentors for students, which again is something I find worrying.
 
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Can you provide some clarity? There are a bit over 17,000 public library branches. Looking at them mapped (US Public Library Map) there are relatively few places (mostly the very rural US West) that there isn't access. I'm not saying such a place doesn't exist, but I'd be very interested to see specific examples, since the current claim is that 96.4% of the US population is served by the US Public Library System.

And there are free MCAT prep resources available on the internet in more than sufficient amounts to do well on the exam.

I've lived and worked with students in the rural west, rural south and rural midwest, all of which are among the lowest densities of public libraries.
Tbh, the lack of access claim has always sounded so spurious to me. Yet, like right wing lies, left-wing bogus claims got adapted and incorporated quickly and irreversibly as well.
 
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Can you provide some clarity? There are a bit over 17,000 public library branches. Looking at them mapped (US Public Library Map) there are relatively few places (mostly the very rural US West) that there isn't access. I'm not saying such a place doesn't exist, but I'd be very interested to see specific examples, since the current claim is that 96.4% of the US population is served by the US Public Library System.

And there are free MCAT prep resources available on the internet in more than sufficient amounts to do well on the exam.

I've lived and worked with students in the rural west, rural south and rural midwest, all of which are among the lowest densities of public libraries.
Are you unfamiliar with poverty levels in America and how many people are affected by it? Lack of transportation, lack of libraries, lack of internet access are very real problems for students who live in poverty. It’s easy to say there’s X amount of public libraries, but can they reach them? If they cant, do they have internet at home? If they don’t, how do they use these free online resources? If they somehow get access to these resources, are they able to find a tutor if they need one or need help with these resources?
Again, many people do not have access or funds to use amenities that many of us take for granted. My family was once at that level of poverty so I understand.
 
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Are you unfamiliar with poverty levels in America and how many people are affected by it? Lack of transportation, lack of libraries, lack of internet access are very real problems for students who live in poverty. It’s easy to say there’s X amount of public libraries, but can they reach them? If they cant, do they have internet at home? If they don’t, how do they use these free online resources? If they somehow get access to these resources, are they able to find a tutor if they need one or need help with these resources?
Again, many people do not have access or funds to use amenities that many of us take for granted. My family was once at that level of poverty so I understand.

Then how can we just assume they’ll thrive in med school? And then why can’t we also assume that people who are high SES would also have done well if they were low SES?
 
Then how can we just assume they’ll thrive in med school? And then why can’t we also assume that people who are high SES would also have done well if they were low SES?
Because people are not simply an MCAT number. There is development that goes on outside of MCAT prep that will lend a student the ability to do well in medical school. Doing poorly on the MCAT doesn’t mean a student isn’t capable of doing well in med school which is the issue that people have regarding disadvantaged students not having the abundance of resources that many other do when it comes to the MCAT. Which is why I think a P/F MCAT may work better in the favor of disadvantaged students. If a student is disadvantaged and limited in their prep resources and don’t have the funds to take the exam more than once even with a reduced fee then are we just supposed to flip them the finger? Too bad for them? Vs students having every resource nearly, and adequate ability to prep and have a better chance of doing well, and have the funds to take the exam multiple times. Are they the only ones that deserve a fair shot at medical school? It’s a lopsided process.
 
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Then how can we just assume they’ll thrive in med school? And then why can’t we also assume that people who are high SES would also have done well if they were low SES?

Because people aren’t individuals with talents but are 100% products of their zip code/ethnicity. 21st century sociology 101, dude.
 
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Because people are not simply an MCAT number. There is development that goes on outside of MCAT prep that will lend a student the ability to do well in medical school. Doing poorly on the MCAT doesn’t mean a student isn’t capable of doing well in med school which is the issue that people have regarding disadvantaged students not having the abundance of resources that many other do when it comes to the MCAT. Which is why I think a P/F MCAT may work better in the favor of disadvantaged students. If a student disadvantaged and limited in their prep resources and don’t have the funds to take the exam more than once even with a reduced fee then are we just supposed to flip them the finger? Too bad for them? Vs students having every resource nearly, and adequate ability to prep and have a better chance of doing well, and have the funds to take the exam multiple times. Are they the only ones that deserve a fair shot at medical school? It’s a lopsided process.

It’s not just MCAT though. It’s going to a better school, having better research opportunities, having physician parents who can hook you up with shadowing opportunities. But you also can’t deny that all of those things make success in medical school more likely. At the end of the day, the rich kid may have done well just cause he went to private schools and had tutors growing up. But you can’t also deny that he’s more likely to do well in med school simply because he had the opportunity to improve his academic skills.
 
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Are you unfamiliar with poverty levels in America and how many people are affected by it? Lack of transportation, lack of libraries, lack of internet access are very real problems for students who live in poverty. It’s easy to say there’s X amount of public libraries, but can they reach them? If they cant, do they have internet at home? If they don’t, how do they use these free online resources? If they somehow get access to these resources, are they able to find a tutor if they need one or need help with these resources?
I'm quite familiar: as I said, I've spent the last decade working with students who are extremely low income on their journeys to medical school in some of the lowest resource places in the country (rural south, midwest and west).

Are there places where resources are an absolutely critical problem? Yes. But they are very few and far between (mostly places so rural that there is no cellular signal). Outside of that, many rural libraries have moved to having Wi-Fi hotspots available for checkout so people can come in every 2 weeks, check one out, and be able to access library (and other internet resources) remotely. That minimizes travel needed. There are even ways to get them if you can't physically go to the library- but the number of places where an adult can't physically get to a public library are, again, pretty few and far between: mostly localized to the far west and some areas of Appalachia.

If you have some specific citations / resources on what geographical spots in the US you're discussing and how those specific location based challenges impact taking the MCAT, I'm very interested to hear it.

But chances are, the impacts of SES on all other areas of the application are going to be far greater than impacts to the MCAT. It's much harder to get volunteer experience, clinical experience, research experience, in places so rural there is no library than it is to study for the MCAT.

As for cost if you can't access a library, you can find MCAT prep books on used bookstores (i.e., AbeBooks) for $5-$30 for a whole series pretty frequently, especially if you look for those that are a few years old. Anything since the 2016 revisions will work perfectly fine for the bulk of studying necessary, and even pre-2016 versions will work for a lot of material review.

And if someone is truly unable to access resources, they're likely eligible for the Fee Waiver program, which includes free prep materials as part of it, in addition to reduced exam fees.

And this is all assuming significant prep resources, outside of those freely available from AMCAS, are make- or-break for the MCAT. Presumably, anyone taking it will have textbooks and course notes from relevant content classes, and the free full length exam will allow someone to see how the exam is structured and how questions are phrased.
 
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