Abolishing MCAT, food for thought

[23andme]

All very awesome!!!! It’s perhaps true that our library system while physically extensive doesn’t have a lot of non-traditional library services. Our libraries do not provide wifi outside of the buildings (though it’s a big city so you could probably be outside and use it), and don’t provide hotspots for rent. I work in education and hope they improve services for students or premeds, but the city does have lots of other resources so it’s maybe the reason libraries haven’t taken on that role.

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[Mr.Smile12]

... do admissions members at schools even have the time to do a review of what students are putting on their applications? Everyone here was able to tear the original guy apart by searching through a lot (in fact how did someone find out about his FATHER??) of research, but for all I know half my co-applicants could be fabricating some portion of their application. Which is why having the MCAT which seems to be the one main thing that you cannot fabricate, needs to remain a necessity. +1 for lowering registration fee, though.

There are some adcoms that will search the internet. I think it would be worth a discussion on doing a proper overall background check (not just in criminal records) if the rules are properly ethical and established. If one can create fake accounts easily, we need to think about what one needs to do.

Granted many adcoms claim they read SDN forums.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I skipped over everyone’s posts bashing the authors and while I disagree with their main point, I do think the authors did a great job sparking discourse given the rate of response here. That is what opinion pieces are about anyway.

On the other hand, there's no chatter in the prehealth advisors forum (not on SDN) as far as I know. Or reddit.

 

[eigen]

On the other hand, there's no chatter in the prehealth advisors forum (not on SDN) as far as I know. Or reddit.

Not that I've seen.

 

[23andme]

Not that I've seen.

It got 481 comments in one day on the actual article, which seems pretty active? But then the comments were shut off.. I wonder why.

I don’t know how many of them are thoughtful responses. But some Washington Post opinion pieces get radio silence

 

[MDMechEngr]

It got 481 comments in one day on the actual article, which seems pretty active? But then the comments were shut off.. I wonder why.

I don’t know how many of them are thoughtful responses. But some Washington Post opinion pieces get radio silence

LOL. I thought the 481 was your MCAT score.

 

[toastedbutter]

There are some adcoms that will search the internet. I think it would be worth a discussion on doing a proper overall background check (not just in criminal records) if the rules are properly ethical and established. If one can create fake accounts easily, we need to think about what one needs to do.

Granted many adcoms claim they read SDN forums.

Maybe a little out there, but has anyone suggested something like LinkedIn for pre-health students? Kind of a build your application as you go through school deal. I feel like having students put in their experiences and achievements as they go and having them officially vetted by mentors and managers etc and, in turn, getting rid of letters of recommendation could have some benefits. It could prevent a lot of rampant lying, not all of it but a good amount. I also feel like it would be more valuable than what a letter of recommendation from, for example, a science professor would provide. Granted, though, I am an applicant and have no idea just how closely letters of recommendation are scrutinized.

 

[doomer_md]

I still can’t get over that guy’s website. He “believes that writing is the engine behind science.” How profound. No **** you need to write things down. How else would you document something? Voice memos? Photo collages?

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Maybe a little out there, but has anyone suggested something like LinkedIn for pre-health students? Kind of a build your application as you go through school deal. I feel like having students put in their experiences and achievements as they go and having them officially vetted by mentors and managers etc and, in turn, getting rid of letters of recommendation could have some benefits. It could prevent a lot of rampant lying, not all of it but a good amount. I also feel like it would be more valuable than what a letter of recommendation from, for example, a science professor would provide. Granted, though, I am an applicant and have no idea just how closely letters of recommendation are scrutinized.

SDN/HPSA does have the Premed Planner app. Not that it would prevent lying but it would be nice to catalog your experiences.

Becoming a Studenr Doctor is a new course, but I would like more time to figure out how to migrate it to LinkedIn Learning. I also think there is a significant fee for us to run it.

Treating Transgender Patients is a free resource that I hope can be further developed to give verification.

But what you propose needs buy in and money and paid verifiers. We will complain about application fees being high now... imagine how much for something more.

 

[xffan624]

It got 481 comments in one day on the actual article, which seems pretty active? But then the comments were shut off.. I wonder why.

I don’t know how many of them are thoughtful responses. But some Washington Post opinion pieces get radio silence

I think they shut off comments after a couple days for most articles. Probably to cut down on moderating requirements. 481 is an ok number (a political editorial will get a lot more), but if you read them, most were were people extolling the virtues of a standardized test to find the "best" doctors. I say this as someone who did well on the MCAT with limited resources and after having last taken a premed class 7 years before taking the MCAT. I tend to do well on standardized tests. Not genius level, but above average with moderate effort. This was replicated for me in Step 1, Step 2, and Step 3. I can say for certain it didn't make me a better doctor compared to some of my presumably lower scoring residents who went to DO schools and lower ranking MD schools.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

It got 481 comments in one day on the actual article, which seems pretty active? But then the comments were shut off.. I wonder why.

I don’t know how many of them are thoughtful responses. But some Washington Post opinion pieces get radio silence

They couldn't be as thoughtful as this thread....

I can't remember but usually there is a time of a volume cutoff. The editors also go in and upvote the comments that are most insightful.

 

[xffan624]

It looks like the comments were all posted on just the day it was published (oldest comments are from “1 week ago” and newest say “7 days ago”). I find that pretty weird? At least it got traction

I feel similarly. I took MCAT 5 years after my last premed class, scored in 99th percentile using Khan Academy (free) and AAMC stuff (FAP), was excited but for sure feel like my professional experience will better predict my success in school and as a doctor. I know that’s more difficult to measure though

There is absolutely a minimum level of mastery that could be defined for the MCAT for entry to medical school and maybe it would work if the stigma & cost around retaking was reduced. But then you have admissions offices with 5000+ applications that all say MCAT: “Pass”

The High Pass / Pass system would be better than P/F?

Would be wonderful if funding increased for high need specialties, number of spots increased for residency positions, number of seats increased for medical school. Then maybe MCAT P/F would work.

I read the Washington Post website every day. The editorial was only on the front page for half a day or so, IIRC and then it dropped off so it's not too surprising the comments the dropped off.

 

[Med Ed]

It looks like the comments were all posted on just the day it was published (oldest comments are from “1 week ago” and newest say “7 days ago”). I find that pretty weird? At least it got traction

Agree with @xffan624

I usually read the Washington Post at least a few times each week, and this opinion was on the front page for a very brief spell. Out of curiosity, I went to read some of the comments and that section was already closed with fewer than 500 responses. It felt like they published it reluctantly and then swept it under the rug as quickly as possible.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Agree with @xffan624

I usually read the Washington Post at least a few times each week, and this opinion was on the front page for a very brief spell. Out of curiosity, I went to read some of the comments and that section was already closed with fewer than 500 responses. It felt like they published it reluctantly and then swept it under the rug as quickly as possible.

Hmm... I should check if the AAMC response is still up too.

 

[LizzyM]

Just out of curiosity, how do you know they've taken courses? I feel like that would be a silly thing for someone to bring up in an interview.

I can see when they've taken the summer off before taking the MCAT. Also, you might be surprised what people will tell an interviewer.

 

[Med Ed]

Hmm... I should check if the AAMC response is still up too.

I checked the publication date on the original piece, which was Wednesday, December 7. I didn't see it online until the 14th, the same day it was posted in this thread, and by then the comments were closed. Not sure where it was hiding during that week.

 

[Boris Json]

that’s kinda ridiculous. MCAT is extremely helpful for selecting potential candidates. Law schools are destroying themselves by abolishing the LSAT.

 

[Med Ed]

that’s kinda ridiculous. MCAT is extremely helpful for selecting potential candidates. Law schools are destroying themselves by abolishing the LSAT.

Again, the OP did not accurately translate the opinion piece into the title of this thread, I assume to get people riled up. The authors did not make a case for abolishing the MCAT. They instead propose to "de-emphasize" it by converting it to a pass/fail test.

Given their apparently non-existent knowledge of psychometrics, I'm not sure how they would propose to set the passing threshold for such a brave new MCAT, but perhaps that's beside the point.

 

[NITRAS]

Just out of curiosity, are there any adcoms here who think they would select better students with a pass/fail MCAT?

On a side note, I’m so happy I’m not applying now.

 

[23andme]

Just out of curiosity, are there any adcoms here who think they would select better students with a pass/fail MCAT?

On a side note, I’m so happy I’m not applying now.

Define “better”

You might reduce the culture and number of box checkers and competitors, while still recruiting pretty incredible and talented students (who would obviously still Pass the exam)

Full disclosure: I don’t think P/F is a reality any time soon, not without addressing other Med student or physician pipeline issues. But it’s worth keeping on the table as medical education continues to evolve

 

[Med Ed]

Just out of curiosity, are there any adcoms here who think they would select better students with a pass/fail MCAT?

I think schools would feel more freedom to choose they students they want instead of playing to the rankings, or obsessing over the predictive validity of certain metrics.

When I sat on my first admissions committee many years ago I was a big believer in metrics. Over the years my thoughts on the matter have evolved considerably.

 

[a_distant_dream]

In my opinion, the MCAT is an imperfect tool but the response should be to improve it, not stop using it. As an example, the multiple choice scoring system (1 point if correct, 0 pts if wrong) is outdated compared to strictly proper scoring methods as described below:

Alice is 99% sure the answer is A and thinks there is a 1% chance it is B. Bob is 51% sure the answer is A and 49% sure the answer is B. They submit their answers:

• On the current MCAT, Alice and Bob will get the same number of points no matter what the right answer is.
• With a strictly proper scoring rule of the natural logarithm, they submit their answers as numbers for each answer choice (or select one answer and type how sure they are). Alice will get log(99) = 4.60 points if she’s right. If she’s wrong, she’ll get log(100-99) = 0 points. Bob will get log(51) = 3.93 points if he’s right and log(49) = 3.89 points if he’s wrong. Being confidently wrong will be punished more than being split between two options and recognizing that.

 

[Med Ed]

In my opinion, the MCAT is an imperfect tool but the response should be to improve it, not stop using it.

Again, not what was proposed.

 

[a_distant_dream]

Sorry, I misspoke. Even so, the tool should be improved and not used less.

Again, not what was proposed.

 

[CaptNemo]

also just bc was thinking about it and wanted to add -

The mcat is the only non bull****table part of the app process. What does that actually mean in real terms?

For getting into t5 (let’s use that as an example) - everything other than an MCAT score can be afforded through cash/nepotism/connections.

Examples:


Pubs/research: connections into god labs, easy pubs from parents/family friends/nepotism connections.

Nonclinical: crafting fluff narratives just takes money and connections. not skill. making fake websites and claiming fake hours isn’t hard, it just takes the right connections to build a fictional Disney story. none of it is real. hours and achievements here are easy to fake and hard to verify

Clinical: same as nonclinical

GPA: contrary to sdn belief, buying/using connections to get into inflationary ug, ivies for increased name brand, and of course cheating are rampant. again, connections + money can get an easy gpa for people.

Important note is that all of this can still be grinded out by lower SES kids, it’s not like a lot of people say on Reddit and sometime here that those opportunities are only for rich kids. It’s just much more of a grind

MCAT on the other hand: it’s not like money or connections can change how 2 different kids are going to read the same Kaplan pages, do the same UW qbank, and take the same FLs. At the end of the day, for mcat score, if people want it bad enough, they can get it. Reddit has all solutions, every topic explained, and YouTube is even available for free to self teach

I 100% agree with this. While I come from a upper-middle class family, we have absolutely zero (0) connections to anybody in the US medical process (or even the medical process back in the country I was born in). So labs, volunteering, and everything else for me was discovered through copious premed Reddit and later SDN lurking and talking around campus. While I 100% admit that the process was eased by my higher SES and supportive parents, I didn't do anything that costed money until taking the MCAT. Even then, the only things I bought were UWorld and the AAMC practice exams - I don't believe in the efficacy of teaching programs for it personally. I appreciate meritocratic processes like the MCAT - while they don't tell the whole human interaction picture, essays just seem like a way for rich kids with connections and knowledge about the process to hire somebody else to write their essay and coach them through the entire process. The rest of the process can similarly be easily gamed by people with high SES, just like you described.

I worked a summer internship this year only half for the experience; the other half was for the extra money to afford applying this year without financially harming my parents since we're in that "perfect" middle where we get no aid but these processes are financially damaging us if we don't correctly budget them. It's all just so frustrating sometimes.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Pass fail would be a disaster too. Look what it has done for residency. People from my low tier MD school have fewer interviews at top residencies this cycle since USLME STEP1 is now pass fail.

This would just make top MD schools filled with more Ivy Leaguers imo

 

[deleted936268]

I 100% agree with this. While I come from a upper-middle class family, we have absolutely zero (0) connections to anybody in the US medical process (or even the medical process back in the country I was born in). So labs, volunteering, and everything else for me was discovered through copious premed Reddit and later SDN lurking and talking around campus. While I 100% admit that the process was eased by my higher SES and supportive parents, I didn't do anything that costed money until taking the MCAT. Even then, the only things I bought were UWorld and the AAMC practice exams - I don't believe in the efficacy of teaching programs for it personally. I appreciate meritocratic processes like the MCAT - while they don't tell the whole human interaction picture, essays just seem like a way for rich kids with connections and knowledge about the process to hire somebody else to write their essay and coach them through the entire process. The rest of the process can similarly be easily gamed by people with high SES, just like you described.

I worked a summer internship this year only half for the experience; the other half was for the extra money to afford applying this year without financially harming my parents since we're in that "perfect" middle where we get no aid but these processes are financially damaging us if we don't correctly budget them. It's all just so frustrating sometimes.

YUP. Exactly. People that get screwed by changing anything about the MCAT's value in admissions are poor people and middle to relatively upper class. Nobody cheesing it out on this website with us losers knows what actual, high amounts of money look like and can understand the magnitude of those people's resources.

**MOST IMPORTANT POINT IN THIS THREAD: The gap between poor people resources and middle/relatively upper class is probably 10% compared to the resources ultra high SES have.

Middle/relatively upper class can't donate buildings. Can't get 10+ free pubs off of dad's friend. Inherit/slap name on a real, huge nonprofit while someone else is running it. Make a phone call to friend of admissions' dean and change the whole course of application. And guess what - all of that is so easy to fake that if the MCAT weren't a thing, we would be getting torched by those kids.

Be careful what you wish for in changing the MCAT. If anything, it's the only thing keeping us bottom feeders on this site.

Also an edit: the disadvantaged box on the application, while not perfect, slightly (not perfectly) makes up for the difference between poor and middle/relatively upper class. It no where near compensates for the difference between poor and ultra ultra rich (net worths and connections valuing tens of mill)

 

[deleted936268]

Again, not what was proposed.

Even pass/fail or lowering its weight would be dumb.

 

[MDMechEngr]

I worked a summer internship this year only half for the experience; the other half was for the extra money to afford applying this year without financially harming my parents since we're in that "perfect" middle where we get no aid but these processes are financially damaging us if we don't correctly budget them. It's all just so frustrating sometimes.

There is nothing like being caught in No Man's Land, sort to speak. LOL.

 

[Med Ed]

People from my low tier MD school have fewer interviews at top residencies this cycle since USLME STEP1 is now pass fail.

Sounds interesting. What is your data source?

 

[Med Ed]

Even pass/fail or lowering its weight would be dumb.

I've pored over several years of outcomes data (since the last MCAT revision). Above a certain threshold it doesn't seem to predict much of anything for us (all the predictive power is below that threshold).

What do you think I should I do with this information?

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Sounds interesting. What is your data source?

Aside from general chatter, the surgery department heads and clinical profs have said that people going forward will need to apply to many more programs since fewer interviews are being extended to students from the school relative to previous cycles. And this is just general surgery. The people applying to very competitive specialties are having it worse. One person applying urology only has had an interview likely out of pity since he rotated there

 

[CaptNemo]

Also if you are interested in learning more about standardized testing I would also strongly recommend "The Aristocracy of Talent" by Adrian Wooldrige. It gives an excellent background on where many of these ideas come from.

Started reading this today and am quite amazed at how well a lot of his arguments resonate with my own personal beliefs. Also appreciate the historical anecdotes as a history buff, really delves into how such a rotten feudal system was able to keep running for so long. Definitely second this recommendation.

 

[skeptastic]

I've pored over several years of outcomes data (since the last MCAT revision). Above a certain threshold it doesn't seem to predict much of anything for us (all the predictive power is below that threshold).

What do you think I should I do with this information?

If you don't mind sharing, what was that threshold score? I've always heard that a 500+ results in something like 95% of students eventually graduating from medical school. Just curious what you've found. Also, are there metrics or factors you've found to predict success in medical school more than others?

 

[a_distant_dream]

I've pored over several years of outcomes data (since the last MCAT revision). Above a certain threshold it doesn't seem to predict much of anything for us (all the predictive power is below that threshold).

What do you think I should I do with this information?

Fascinating to hear - Are there any factors within MCAT score that do have better predictive power? Number of attempts, lowest subscore section, score on first attempt, score on last attempt, etc?

If not, I still believe the MCAT as a threshold is a perfectly reasonable application of the tool and you can set the threshold for your needs. A well-chosen threshold is mathematically sound and provably effective in many limited-resource contexts (ex: selling things for a fixed price over auctions or haggling). It’s also possible that the MCAT policies in admission / MSAR averages of your school impact the distribution of individuals applying and being accepted to your school, for better or worse.

 

[deleted936268]

I've pored over several years of outcomes data (since the last MCAT revision). Above a certain threshold it doesn't seem to predict much of anything for us (all the predictive power is below that threshold).

What do you think I should I do with this information?

You should probably reread the 2 posts above i made already on why I said the MCAT bar shouldn’t be lower or devalued - if you read them before typing this, you’d understand it has nothing to do with predictive range and success in med school…

 

[Med Ed]

You should probably reread the 2 posts above i made already on why I said the MCAT bar shouldn’t be lower or devalued - if you read them before typing this, you’d understand it has nothing to do with predictive range and success in med school…

I typically respond to what is written to me, not what is previously written to others.

 

[Med Ed]

Aside from general chatter, the surgery department heads and clinical profs have said that people going forward will need to apply to many more programs since fewer interviews are being extended to students from the school relative to previous cycles. And this is just general surgery. The people applying to very competitive specialties are having it worse. One person applying urology only has had an interview likely out of pity since he rotated there

So anecdote with powdered hearsay.

I'll withhold judgment.

 

[Med Ed]

If you don't mind sharing, what was that threshold score? I've always heard that a 500+ results in something like 95% of students eventually graduating from medical school. Just curious what you've found.

It's above 500, but not very far above.

It's common to tell students at med school orientations that they are all starting with a blank slate (or something to that effect), and I have found it to be more true than I would have guessed.

Also, are there metrics or factors you've found to predict success in medical school more than others?

I have found that it's much easier to predict problems than success.

 

[skeptastic]

It's above 500, but not very far above.

It's common to tell students at med school orientations that they are all starting with a blank slate (or something to that effect), and I have found it to be more true than I would have guessed.


I have found that it's much easier to predict problems than success.

I appreciate your reply. I figured it might be a bit higher than 500, if for no other reason than the 50th-percentile score has increased over the years. But what you've noticed could have a higher threshold than 50th-percentile. Also, apologies for reading what you wrote and still asking the wrong question. You clearly said all the predictive power lies below the threshold.

It sounds like the blank slate is a great opportunity for those with lower GPAs and MCAT scores (above a certain threshold) to thrive and find greater success than they found as a pre-med/applicant.