Abolishing MCAT, food for thought

[deleted1141182]

You’re assuming people have access to libraries. It might be hard to believe, but there are applicants living in serious poverty that may not have access to the amenities you’re used to and that many of us take for granted. The MCAT is not fully covered, there is a reduced cost for disadvantaged students.

If you have access to a university, you have access to a library. Most public libraries are also free, if I remember correctly. I don't doubt that there are many things that allow people to do good on the MCAT that cost a lot of money, but the idea that you can't do as well using only free resources is preposterous. The only thing that should change is the cost to register for the exam.

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[deleted1139416]

The only thing that should change is the cost to register for the exam.

Let’s first start with USMLE

 

[deleted1141182]

Whenever I hear these arguments spring up to eliminate the MCAT it just sounds like a lot of sour grapes from people who didn't do well and are bitter that it is a component of your application that is weighted pretty heavily. The real test is not what's on it, but your ability to power through and not only take the exam, but do well. Can you digest 8 subjects worth of information and be able to recall it when you need to, similar to how a doctor might need some obscure minutiae of information when working on a difficult case? potentially! that's what they are really testing, and testing that is crucial in assessing the likelihood that a student will not only get through medical school, but thrive in school and beyond.

 

[Goro]

What I don't understand is if they have so much intelligence to get into all the labs and pubs, can't they (at least the second one) see the cringiness in that attempt at publicity? I think it's just poor judgment all over.

Well, lab rats, y'know.

 

[DarkBluMage]

I’m not about to get drawn into a long discourse. I have an exam tomorrow. If y’all want to believe that there aren’t people out there that struggle to have adequate access for MCAT prep or being able to afford a single, let alone multiple attempts for the MCAT then idk what to tell you. The world is y’all’s oyster. Lmbo have a good day.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

Worse, this Cameron dude's father is an ophtho and his name is attached to his father's papers... smh... man, talking about gaming the system. this is repulsive.

Therapeutic Penetrating Keratoplasty using Full-Thickness Gamma Irradiated Corneal Tissue

Purpose: This paper is intended to report the ultrastructural and biological features of VisionGraft®, a commercially available acellular gamma-irradiated sterile cornea. This is the first known ultrastructural examination of the VisionGraft® with electron microscopy after in-...

www.researchsquare.com

 

[Med Ed]

Worse, this Cameron dude's father is an ophtho and his name is attached to his father's papers... smh... man, talking about gaming the system. this is repulsive.

Therapeutic Penetrating Keratoplasty using Full-Thickness Gamma Irradiated Corneal Tissue

Purpose: This paper is intended to report the ultrastructural and biological features of VisionGraft®, a commercially available acellular gamma-irradiated sterile cornea. This is the first known ultrastructural examination of the VisionGraft® with electron microscopy after in-...

www.researchsquare.com

What other terrible things has he done?

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

What other terrible things has he done?

microcosm of why medical school admissions need to change, if you don't see that. Money, privilege, nepotism, self dealing, and egomaniacal display. Yes, I am very unhappy about it as a stakeholder in this profession. What's wrong with that? So you tell me why you think it's ok to make light of this?

 

[Frigidcold]

Lol, what is going on here? Is this the work of some admissions company or something? Someone's got to be telling them to do this right?

Home | My Site

www.simarbajaj.com

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

Lol, what is going on here? Is this the work of some admissions company or something? Someone's got to be telling them to do this right?

Home | My Site

www.simarbajaj.com

well, actually this guy looks like a "real deal." Pretty impressive given that he's just a junior.

 

[Med Ed]

microcosm of why medical school admissions need to change, if you don't see that. Money, privilege, nepotism, self dealing, and egomaniacal display. Yes, I am very unhappy about it as a stakeholder in this profession. What's wrong with that? So you tell me why you think it's ok to make light of this?

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

 

[Moko]

Ah yes, narcissism and lack of self awareness. Both wonderful traits that we actively seek out in our applicants. I really hope this applicant includes their website on their application.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

methinks, non-sequitur... lol I am an MS3 already. I have no dog in the fight. I am just advocating for a better process from which I would not benefit anyway. And yes, I do participate in my school's admissions process as a student member.

 

[jamaica jan sun princess]

It's kind of the same situation as P/F Step 1. If the MCAT goes P/F too, medical school admissions will be based more on factors that favor applicants from wealthy backgrounds and elite schools. Those of us who are from more modest backgrounds and had to work while attending our lowly state school will be even more disadvantaged.

 

[DarkBluMage]

Literally every person who has replied to you has acknowledged that some people certainly have it harder than others. Sounds like somebody scored below the median...

Lmbo what? That’s what you got out of that? My MCAT score cause I’m advocating for people? Why would my score even be relevant? I’m in med school, I don’t give af about the MCAT anymore. Worry about yourself buddy 😂

 

[deleted936268]

@DarkBluMage

ik it's late in the discussion but just so people know - the $200-300 spent on books that is being cited here is wrong.

These books are free if you actually look properly. People on the mcat reddit have a huge file with up-to-date kaplan/tpr/etc books and resources + libgen,

Not that it changes other costs of mcat but just so facts are there

only thing you really end up paying for is AAMC + UW + (3rd party if you want it)

no need for a library or any of that fancy ****

 

[Med Ed]

methinks, non-sequitur... lol I am an MS3 already. I have no dog in the fight. I am just advocating for a better process from which I would not benefit anyway. And yes, I do participate in my school's admissions process as a student member.

There's just a thin line between making your target look bad and making yourself look bad, and in my opinion you have been teetering close to the latter. The original post was plenty of material to start a discussion on the (mis)use of the MCAT in admissions. We get it, the authors are self-serving, but the world is full of people like them.

Also, you know what else is cringe?

Too cringy.

completely cringy....

see the cringiness

 

[Med Ed]

MCAT on the other hand: it’s not like money or connections can change how 2 different kids are going to read the same Kaplan pages, do the same UW qbank, and take the same FLs. At the end of the day, for mcat score, if people want it bad enough, they can get it. Reddit has all solutions, every topic explained, and YouTube is even available for free to self teach

Then why the persistent performance gap between different racial/ethnic groups?

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

There's just a thin line between making your target look bad and making yourself look bad, and in my opinion you have been teetering close to the latter. The original post was plenty of material to start a discussion on the (mis)use of the MCAT in admissions. We get it, the authors are self-serving, but the world is full of people like them.

Also, you know what else is cringe?

Seriously, why do I care I look bad here lol. It’s an anonymous forum….

 

[LizzyM]

I was feeling cynical last night and wondered if we could just use family income as a proxy for MCAT score. Most likely a logarithmic scale....



/sarcasm

 

[deleted936268]

I was feeling cynical last night and wondered if we could just use family income as a proxy for MCAT score. Most likely a logarithmic scale....



/sarcasm

Idk if it exists but are there stats for SES and MCAT score like the ones for race.

Tired of people saying color of skin/ethnicity = mcat score. no people. SES = mcat score because time is also money, and people from low SES have low time, can’t take gap years or summers to study, etc. nothing on that test is hard, it’s literally just testing how much time you have to commit to it.

I don’t want to take anything in that direction but compare a rich urm to low SES Asian (both groups experience racism). Draw your own conclusions from there on who is actually “disadvantaged” since we keep slogging that word around and before responding, I get the racism they experience and history behind it is different. But that’s not going to be responsible for 5+ mcat points or whatever the stat is (not referring to that table since it doesn’t incorporate SES).

While thinking about this, just remember everyone for MCAT has the same resources available ($600-900 total). Other than that, it’s all about how much time you have. Nobody cares what desk you study at, if there’s a tutor or not, etc bc you literally have access to very resource Ince you put in $600, no matter your ethnicity/race. The only difference is the time you have, which comes from SES

 

[DarkHorizon]

Didn’t read the article but this Sabet guy is a tool for sure looking at his website and LinkedIn. No one gives a fuk how great you’re dude. You’d get your rear handed to you at some point. Learn to be humble.

 

[Goro]

Calm down, kids

 

[DarkBluMage]

Calm down, kids

My apologies. Didn’t mean to derail the thread. I didn’t appreciate the attempted insult at me.

 

[Goro]

That's why the Ignore function is such a valuable too, Blu

 

[deleted1141182]

My apologies. Didn’t mean to derail the thread. I didn’t appreciate the attempted insult at me.

no need to take it personal bro it was just banter

 

[Frigidcold]

also just bc was thinking about it and wanted to add -

The mcat is the only non bull****table part of the app process. What does that actually mean in real terms?

For getting into t5 (let’s use that as an example) - everything other than an MCAT score can be afforded through cash/nepotism/connections.

Examples:


Pubs/research: connections into god labs, easy pubs from parents/family friends/nepotism connections.

Nonclinical: crafting fluff narratives just takes money and connections. not skill. making fake websites and claiming fake hours isn’t hard, it just takes the right connections to build a fictional Disney story. none of it is real. hours and achievements here are easy to fake and hard to verify

Clinical: same as nonclinical

GPA: contrary to sdn belief, buying/using connections to get into inflationary ug, ivies for increased name brand, and of course cheating are rampant. again, connections + money can get an easy gpa for people.

Important note is that all of this can still be grinded out by lower SES kids, it’s not like a lot of people say on Reddit and sometime here that those opportunities are only for rich kids. It’s just much more of a grind

MCAT on the other hand: it’s not like money or connections can change how 2 different kids are going to read the same Kaplan pages, do the same UW qbank, and take the same FLs. At the end of the day, for mcat score, if people want it bad enough, they can get it. Reddit has all solutions, every topic explained, and YouTube is even available for free to self teach

This. Everything about this process can be tied to SES. None of this is unique to the MCAT. It's just that we can analyze MCAT scores more easily.

 

[DarkBluMage]

@bigp0ppa @DarkBluMage
Least hostile sdn users when it’s time to discuss stats


View attachment 363463

Lmbo yea, lemme waste my time getting into an in-depth discussion on stats when I had an exam to prep for. Sounds like an excellent use of time…

 

[tompremed]

My experience has been that doing a lot of Khan Academy (free) and sample tests (pretty low cost) will get your a good MCAT score. So the authors are way off their points about income playing a big factor. Also taking away MCAT score will make the applicant's undergrad school much more important, putting state school graduates, where low income students are more prevalent, at a bigger disadvantage.

 

[pcm810]

Don't the vast majority of pre-meds study using cheap/free books while they are working/going to school? I have never met someone in real life who took a summer off or used a tutoring course for the mcat. Like I guess if you are uber rich you may pay for courses/take it a bunch, but even for upper middle class students I would think the cost of retaking and tutoring would be restrictive. Making the mcat cheaper to register would definitely help, but people who have money to burn are always going to have a leg up, and changing one test probably wont fix that.

 

[LizzyM]

I have never met someone in real life who took a summer off or used a tutoring course for the mcat.

I meet them all the time as an interviewer. They have MCATs of >519 and the majority come from families with incomes above $300,000.

I don't have access to enough data to run an analysis but I'd bet that their is a strong correlation between self-reported family income and MCAT. There are exceptions to every rule but on a population basis, kids from rich families come out looking "smarter" than kids from poor families.

 

[pcm810]

I meet them all the time as an interviewer. They have MCATs of >519 and the majority come from families with incomes above $300,000.

I don't have access to enough data to run an analysis but I'd bet that their is a strong correlation between self-reported family income and MCAT. There are exceptions to every rule but on a population basis, kids from rich families come out looking "smarter" than kids from poor families.

Just out of curiosity, how do you know they've taken courses? I feel like that would be a silly thing for someone to bring up in an interview.

 

[Goro]

I have never met someone in real life who took a summer off or used a tutoring course for the mcat.

I've seen tons of posts and PMs from SDNers who report doing this.

 

[tompremed]

The fact remains that MCAT score has a strong correlation to how the students do in med school and passing the board exams. Given a choice I would choose a doctor who has a higher MCAT score than a mere passing one. In fact I chose my doctors based partly on his/her med school. Since historically graduates from better med schools had better MCAT scores, I am in fact choosing doctors with higher MCAT scores.

 

[LunaOri]

Idk if it exists but are there stats for SES and MCAT score like the ones for race.

Tired of people saying color of skin/ethnicity = mcat score. no people. SES = mcat score because time is also money, and people from low SES have low time, can’t take gap years or summers to study, etc. nothing on that test is hard, it’s literally just testing how much time you have to commit to it.

I don’t want to take anything in that direction but compare a rich urm to low SES Asian (both groups experience racism). Draw your own conclusions from there on who is actually “disadvantaged” since we keep slogging that word around and before responding, I get the racism they experience and history behind it is different. But that’s not going to be responsible for 5+ mcat points or whatever the stat is (not referring to that table since it doesn’t incorporate SES).

While thinking about this, just remember everyone for MCAT has the same resources available ($600-900 total). Other than that, it’s all about how much time you have. Nobody cares what desk you study at, if there’s a tutor or not, etc bc you literally have access to very resource Ince you put in $600, no matter your ethnicity/race. The only difference is the time you have, which comes from SES

Do you seriously think we don’t consider SES when we look at the MCAT score? Holistic review! When an applicant is low SES, and lists 1000’s of hours of paid employment, we know they don’t have as much time for studying and ECs as someone whose parents are millionaires.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

... I don't have access to enough data to run an analysis but I'd bet that their is a strong correlation between self-reported family income and MCAT. There are exceptions to every rule but on a population basis, kids from rich families come out looking "smarter" than kids from poor families.

I think this is one such study.

The influence of income on medical school admissions in Canada: a retrospective cohort study - BMC Medical Education

Background The socioeconomic status of applicants to Canadian medical schools has been understudied in the past two decades. Institutional efforts have been made to address the lack of socioeconomic diversity across Canada during this time. We investigated the income characteristics of medical...

bmcmededuc.biomedcentral.com

 

[Mr.Smile12]

no no I meant a table like the race/ethnicity + mcat score one used by AAMC and cited a billion times here but for SES + MCAT

I know clicking disadvantaged and low SES improves chances but just want hard stats to show the person above that the main thing that determines mcat isn't race, its SES (and as an extension available time)

I can't directly answer the request. I can only show my paper: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.21815/JDE.019.144

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I've seen tons of posts and PMs from SDNers who report doing this.

There are a few vendors who do this (I think). And prehealth offices and postbac programs trying to run them.

 

[deleted936268]

I can't directly answer the request. I can only show my paper: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.21815/JDE.019.144

yea. this kinda shows what i'm saying but not fully. but on every mcat + urm/orm debate I've seen here and on reddit (like millions of debates and kids calling each other small minded and "go experience the real world" and "its a multilayered issue".)

not once have I seen a table, from AAMC or any other source, structured like the AAMC one. someone link anything, seriously. any table with this structure.

 

[deleted936268]

almost like they continue dividing us by race to sweep under the rug that SES is the real problem. they want ORMs to keep getting mad at affirmative action - it hides from the fact rich kids are getting in easy.

it also hides that your mcat score, all else than race being equal (including SES), is entirely dependent on effort.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

yea. this kinda shows what i'm saying but not fully. but on every mcat + urm/orm debate I've seen here and on reddit (like millions of debates and kids calling each other small minded and "go experience the real world" and "its a multilayered issue".)

not once have I seen a table, from AAMC or any other source, structured like the AAMC one. someone link anything, seriously. any table with this structure.

So here are a few reasons why this simplistic table won't appear that relies on the data itself.

1) Defining low or high SES. Currently the AMCAS has SES parental employment/occupation scores that is an important but not absolute indicator of SES. It is a 5 point scale. However if one parent is deceased or unknown, you can't get a score on that parent. So you have to juggle two EO scores or deal with one not reported.

Oh, did I mention one should be able to list multiple parents on AMCAS? If not now, then soon since there are applicants from broken households or had parents remarry, etc.

Other areas of self-disclosure are not reliable as the EO scores (the AAMC studies validating their EO scores in the mid 2010s).

That said I think for admissions studies looking at low SES, they define it as having both parents be EO1. That's maybe 15-20% of the applicant pool at most?

My internal quick analysis suggests the patterns I pointed out in my paper were similar when I looked at a sample of applications when it came to test scores and race or SES, but I didn't have enough applications to really get a significant analysis going. But the results are similar.

2) Race is self-reported, but it has been my experience that this who designate as "prefer not to answer" are ORMs or multiracial. I think AMCAS just changed the race box choices to allow for better disaggregation, which would be more useful than just the typical choices. Regardless it takes a lot of time to validate that data.

3) ORMs. I wrote about that. "Overrepresented Minorities": A Brief History - SDN

Now do I think there should be proper analysis disaggregation SES and intersectionality therein? I think it would be very nice. The problem is, "Then what?" Every school may have its own definition and mission when it comes to SES and underserved in their community. The big problem is that most students in medical school still represent the upper quartile or quintile of income range in the US. You didn't need to do a study that you requested on MCAT to show that. But a control group with low SES that would take the MCAT without preparation... I don't know if that exists. I think there is a bias within those taking tests towards upper SES anyway.

Just thinking out loud, and I'll consider any other thoughts.

 

[deleted936268]

So here are a few reasons why this simplistic table won't appear that relies on the data itself.

1) Defining low or high SES. Currently the AMCAS has SES parental employment/occupation scores that is an important but not absolute indicator of SES. It is a 5 point scale. However if one parent is deceased or unknown, you can't get a score on that parent. So you have to juggle two EO scores or deal with one not reported.

Oh, did I mention one should be able to list multiple parents on AMCAS? If not now, then soon since there are applicants from broken households or had parents remarry, etc.

Other areas of self-disclosure are not reliable as the EO scores (the AAMC studies validating their EO scores in the mid 2010s).

That said I think for admissions studies looking at low SES, they define it as having both parents be EO1.

My internal quick analysis suggests the patterns I pointed out in my paper were similar when I looked at a sample of applications when it came to test scores and race or SES, but I didn't have enough applications to really get a significant analysis going. But the results are similar.

2) Race is self-reported, but it has been my experience that this who designate as "prefer not to answer" are ORMs or multiracial. I think AMCAS just changed the race box choices to allow for better disaggregation, which would be more useful than just the typical choices. Regardless it takes a lot of time to validate that data.

Well they were able to well define it here

2023 FACTS: Applicants and Matriculants Data

These FACTS tables present data on U.S. medical school applicants and matriculants.

www.aamc.org

 

[23andme]

You’re assuming people have access to libraries. It might be hard to believe, but there are applicants living in serious poverty that may not have access to the amenities you’re used to and that many of us take for granted. The MCAT is not fully covered, there is a reduced cost for disadvantaged students.

Can you provide some clarity? There are a bit over 17,000 public library branches. Looking at them mapped (US Public Library Map) there are relatively few places (mostly the very rural US West) that there isn't access. I'm not saying such a place doesn't exist, but I'd be very interested to see specific examples, since the current claim is that 96.4% of the US population is served by the US Public Library System.

And there are free MCAT prep resources available on the internet in more than sufficient amounts to do well on the exam.

I've lived and worked with students in the rural west, rural south and rural midwest, all of which are among the lowest densities of public libraries.

Chiming in RE: libraries. I live in one of the largest cities in the US, and live 3 blocks away from our flagship library (largest collection, central location), and can walk just fine and access it during it’s limited open hours (mostly business hours, when most people are working)

When I was studying for the MCAT, the entire library system only had older materials from the old exam and one book that was from 2018. It had 230 people on the waitlist (and then, even if you manage to get it off waitlist, you only get 3 weeks to use it before it’s due back). I requested additional materials and they were added but 8 months later (2 total books) after I took the exam. Was not eligible to borrow from the local undergrad libraries since I’m not a student.

One data point. Online has great free resources, yes. But “the library” is not always the easy solution everyone thinks it is.

 

[toastedbutter]

Lol, what is going on here? Is this the work of some admissions company or something? Someone's got to be telling them to do this right?

Home | My Site

www.simarbajaj.com

Why even apply when folks like this exist lol

Sorry to move away from the MCAT question, but my main concern after reading this thread is, do admissions members at schools even have the time to do a review of what students are putting on their applications? Everyone here was able to tear the original guy apart by searching through a lot (in fact how did someone find out about his FATHER??) of research, but for all I know half my co-applicants could be fabricating some portion of their application. Which is why having the MCAT which seems to be the one main thing that you cannot fabricate, needs to remain a necessity. +1 for lowering registration fee, though.

 

[23andme]

I skipped over everyone’s posts bashing the authors and while I disagree with their main point, I do think the authors did a great job sparking discourse given the rate of response here. That is what opinion pieces are about anyway.

 

[eigen]

One data point. Online has great free resources, yes. But “the library” is not always the easy solution everyone thinks it is.

Usually, the benefit in "the library" is access to internet resources more often than not. Especially in areas where internet is hard / expensive to access.

 

[23andme]

True. The library is only open 10-7 on week days and a few hours on weekends (5 hours on Saturdays and 4 hours on Sundays). So it’s not a great option for wifi for most people who have to work, but is an option.

 

[eigen]

True. The library is only open 10-7 on week days and a few hours on weekends (5 hours on Saturdays and 4 hours on Sundays). So it’s not a great option for wifi for most people who have to work, but is an option.

At least in the rural areas where I've worked with the libraries, they've come up with some creative solutions to expand it.

One in a really small town (single librarian, limited hours) upgraded the Wi-Fi signal so that it had great coverage in the parking lot so people could use it at all hours (granted, inclement weather / no car still makes that a challenge).

Another went all in on hotspots for folks that could be checked out for a week at a time so they could have access at home, with prioritization for people who needed it for work / school.

It's been fascinating working with local (esp. rural) libraries to see how they're adapting to new needs / new technology.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Well they were able to well define it here

View attachment 363499

2023 FACTS: Applicants and Matriculants Data

These FACTS tables present data on U.S. medical school applicants and matriculants.

www.aamc.org

Right, and they grouped EO1 and EO2. You are right that even doing a nice disaggregation of that data would be great, but that only comes off there is real interest to publish it.

The point is that I didn't see significant differences in test scores based on SES EO scores, compared to URM vs non-URM status. I admit I would love to have these numbers to do that analysis rather than a small applicant pool. My paper looked at DAT scores, and it is a standardized test that has a similar bias as most other high stakes exams.

Does MSAR note % of applicants and matriculants who are EO1/2?

 

[deleted936268]

Right, and they grouped EO1 and EO2. You are right that even doing a nice disaggregation of that data would be great, but that only comes off there is real interest to publish it.

The point is that I didn't see significant differences in test scores based on SES EO scores, compared to URM vs non-URM status. I admit I would love to have these numbers to do that analysis rather than a small applicant pool.

Does MSAR note % of applicants and matriculants who are EO1/2?

yea. there would never be real interest from AAMC who have all the data though - would break the narrative of the system they've setup.

good second point. again though, running this on a bigger applicant pool (like the AAMC has stats for) will never happen. they don't want it to see the light of day.