Accepted! Should I Go, or Reapply?

[MAClinician]

Yes. It is a common misconception. Real quick before my next mtg...

1. NYC/Tri-State is one of the most competitive regions in the country.
2. Fresh out w. a degree v. tens of thousands of other therapists (non-psych, mid levels, etc) with more experience. I'm not saying it can't be done, but the first 2-3+ yrs are probably going to be tough, at best.
3. Overhead is a lot more than you realize. Rent, security deposit, multi-yr contract is normal. Office furniture, records management software, etc. On average, a clinician will have to work longer hours and see more patients as compared to somewhere with a lower cost of living. NYC pricing
4. Paying back $40k-$50k doesn't sound too hard until you factor in start-up costs to a PP, getting on insurance panels, delays in positive cash flow, etc.
5. 50% of small businesses fail within 5yr. The avg psych practice takes ~2yr to build up. Doctoral programs don't teach a lick about running a business.
6. Everyone thinks they will be the exception and will breeze into a cash pay PP.
7. $150hr x 8hr x 5 days = $6,000/wk, for 48wk..$288k! It's not that simple.

It probably comes off as harsh, but students need to understand that they'll probably get kicked in the face by reality if they think they can come out w. their degree, hang a shingle, and wait for their schedules to fill up w. cash pay patients.

/rain on the parade

-a guy who's gotten paid to teach this stuff

To add to this, the OP isn't paying back $40k, she's paying back $40k with UNSUBSIDIZED interest. So while she's in school that first $8-10k she takes out in year 1 is accruing interest in year 2, 3,4&5. Rinse and repeat. Also, Adelphi stats on its website indicates average time to degree is 6 years, not 5. OP claims no debt currently. Add in books/supplies, travel to conferences, applications for internship, interview travel.....OP may choose to tap into savings from her previous employment, or may need to take out additional loan money. Things OP might want to consider. Above all else, healthcare is changing. The roles of providers, whether doctoral or master level, are adapting yearly if not monthly. Competition for jobs, salary, responsibilities may be much different in 5-7 years than now. The economy, though nowhere near 2008 mess, is still prone to dips and drops. The amount of folks who can afford out of pocket therapy may not exist at the same level when OP is ready to start her practice. Lots of risks and limited guaranteed reward in PP. Hopefully OP keeps all options open no matter the school she picks, to develop skills that can be used in variety of settings.

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[Peacemaker36]

Yes. It is a common misconception. Real quick before my next mtg...

1. NYC/Tri-State is one of the most competitive regions in the country.
2. Fresh out w. a degree v. tens of thousands of other therapists (non-psych, mid levels, etc) with more experience. I'm not saying it can't be done, but the first 2-3+ yrs are probably going to be tough, at best.
3. Overhead is a lot more than you realize. Rent, security deposit, multi-yr contract is normal. Office furniture, records management software, etc. On average, a clinician will have to work longer hours and see more patients as compared to somewhere with a lower cost of living. NYC pricing
4. Paying back $40k-$50k doesn't sound too hard until you factor in start-up costs to a PP, getting on insurance panels, delays in positive cash flow, etc.
5. 50% of small businesses fail within 5yr. The avg psych practice takes ~2yr to build up. Doctoral programs don't teach a lick about running a business.
6. Everyone thinks they will be the exception and will breeze into a cash pay PP.
7. $150hr x 8hr x 5 days = $6,000/wk, for 48wk..$288k! It's not that simple.

It probably comes off as harsh, but students need to understand that they'll probably get kicked in the face by reality if they think they can come out w. their degree, hang a shingle, and wait for their schedules to fill up w. cash pay patients.

/rain on the parade

-a guy who's gotten paid to teach this stuff

Most of those are good points. One thing, though, is that I don't think one needs cash-only patients to become successful financially. The good health insurances pay around $100/hour. If you can fill up a practice with those patients, you're making much more than you'd need to pay back $50K comfortably.

 

[Justanothergrad]

Most of those are good points. One thing, though, is that I don't think one needs cash-only patients to become successful financially. The good health insurances pay around $100/hour. If you can fill up a practice with those patients, you're making much more than you'd need to pay back $50K comfortably.

If the boards are open to new providers. They aren't always. Because people like being a referral source.

Insurance requires downtime to process and claims get denied. This reduces your effective pay per hour.

Most don't pay 100.

Not everyone fills doors just because you hang a shingle. Most don't and that why PP is always seeking referrals and why it's so difficult.

 

[deleted343839]

I really like the faculty and the work they do there, but I have reservations about taking out loans and the effect of a school's reputation/training on future employment.

Tough decision. There are many legitimate paths toward becoming a psychodynamic clinician, but when a plan is laid out before you the pull to say yes is very strong.

What'd you decide?

 

[TheDaoDoughnut]

Actually the poster mentioned that they will have funding and help from parents and mentioned a debt of under 6 figures. It has not been clarified by the OP whether or not the estimate includes interest or not but pretty sure in this particular case we are not talking well over 6 figures. I still would not be willing to take out the estimate he or she mentioned but I am just pointing that out. OP also mentioned a desire to live with parents in NYC so I think it is less about he or she thinking NYC is the only area that psychodynamic training can be found and more about trying to live with family. So in this case we are talking about an individual already in NYC wanting to live with family while he or she attends this psychodynamic school. I agree there are other options but just important to know the situation well since you said it is about dispelling the myth

Right on the nose. Total amount paid back in 10 years will be around 70K. I would like to live in the NYC area because both of my parents are old/elderly and I would like to be close to them these next few years.

Disagreeing with you is not rudeness. Someone having a different opinion from you is not a personal attack.

$40k is actually not AWFUL debt (it is above the median but below the mean for PhDs in psych, an would place someone in the company of most grad students: http://www.appic.org/Match/MatchStatistics/ApplicantSurvey2015Part3.aspx). What I and others were trying to communicate is that the cost of the program is NOT $40k.

I have alternative sources of funding I will pursue (research grants, teaching assistantships, etc.) The total monthly payment I quoted above takes into account interest accrued during the program. I weighed my decision and I decided to attend. The cost of schooling is way more than 40K, but I am willing to take on this financial burden. Thank you for your input. I appreciate the candor.

Yes. It is a common misconception. Real quick before my next mtg...

1. NYC/Tri-State is one of the most competitive regions in the country.
2. Fresh out w. a degree v. tens of thousands of other therapists (non-psych, mid levels, etc) with more experience. I'm not saying it can't be done, but the first 2-3+ yrs are probably going to be tough, at best.
3. Overhead is a lot more than you realize. Rent, security deposit, multi-yr contract is normal. Office furniture, records management software, etc. On average, a clinician will have to work longer hours and see more patients as compared to somewhere with a lower cost of living. NYC pricing
4. Paying back $40k-$50k doesn't sound too hard until you factor in start-up costs to a PP, getting on insurance panels, delays in positive cash flow, etc.
5. 50% of small businesses fail within 5yr. The avg psych practice takes ~2yr to build up. Doctoral programs don't teach a lick about running a business.
6. Everyone thinks they will be the exception and will breeze into a cash pay PP.
7. $150hr x 8hr x 5 days = $6,000/wk, for 48wk..$288k! It's not that simple.

It probably comes off as harsh, but students need to understand that they'll probably get kicked in the face by reality if they think they can come out w. their degree, hang a shingle, and wait for their schedules to fill up w. cash pay patients.

/rain on the parade

-a guy who's gotten paid to teach this stuff

These are things I will have to investigate over the next few years so I can do the best given my circumstances.

Does anyone have any information on pursuing non-loan forms of funding?

 

[deleted343839]

Does anyone have any information on pursuing non-loan forms of funding?

Predoctoral NRSAs (F31) are not easy to get but they will pay some of your tuition for up to 3 years, plus a pretty good stipend and research expenses. There is also a specific NRSA program to promote diversity in research scientists, and if I understood your previous posts that might be something worth looking into.

 

[MCParent]

R
These are things I will have to investigate over the next few years so I can do the best given my circumstances.

Does anyone have any information on pursuing non-loan forms of funding?

You said you had scholarships related to your minority status, so definitely check out NIH minority training awards.
You can hit other funding sources (e.g., apa/apf) for funding also. They'll be smaller, but small awards can help you get bigger ones later.
Adelphi has good match stats and EPPP pass rates, so that is a plus.

 

[TheDaoDoughnut]

Predoctoral NRSAs (F31) are not easy to get but they will pay some of your tuition for up to 3 years, plus a pretty good stipend and research expenses. There is also a specific NRSA program to promote diversity in research scientists, and if I understood your previous posts that might be something worth looking into.

I will look into NRSA's during these next few months. I would like to secure alternative stipends/grants to help lessen the financial burden. I intend on working for the next few months (before grad school starts) so my family and I can throw a large chunk of money toward tuition immediately.

You said you had scholarships related to your minority status, so definitely check out NIH minority training awards.
You can hit other funding sources (e.g., apa/apf) for funding also. They'll be smaller, but small awards can help you get bigger ones later.
Adelphi has good match stats and EPPP pass rates, so that is a plus.

Thank you for providing this information. I will check into NIH training awards and funding trough APA/APF. What do you mean small awards can help me get bigger ones later? Is it like building a "resume" of funding?

 

[deleted343839]

What do you mean small awards can help me get bigger ones later? Is it like building a "resume" of funding?

Yes, having a good track record of funding and productivity (ie, not just taking the money but having something to show for it) will make you more competitive for future awards. Also, you'll get better at writing grants as you get more experience.

 

[LauraH8214]

Right on the nose. Total amount paid back in 10 years will be around 70K. I would like to live in the NYC area because both of my parents are old/elderly and I would like to be close to them these next few years.

Happy to listen and help - I am so glad you were able to make a decision

 

[ClinicalABA]

I weighed my decision and I decided to attend.

Congratulations on your acceptance. Set yourself to studying hard, working hard, and doing what you need to do to get done what you need to get done. I wish you the best of luck with your training.

 

[TheDaoDoughnut]

Yes, having a good track record of funding and productivity (ie, not just taking the money but having something to show for it) will make you more competitive for future awards. Also, you'll get better at writing grants as you get more experience.

Wow thank you, I had never thought of that but it makes sense. Much appreciated, and good luck the rest of your career!

 

[psychapplicant12345]

To add to this, the OP isn't paying back $40k, she's paying back $40k with UNSUBSIDIZED interest. So while she's in school that first $8-10k she takes out in year 1 is accruing interest in year 2, 3,4&5. Rinse and repeat. Also, Adelphi stats on its website indicates average time to degree is 6 years, not 5. OP claims no debt currently. Add in books/supplies, travel to conferences, applications for internship, interview travel.....OP may choose to tap into savings from her previous employment, or may need to take out additional loan money. Things OP might want to consider. Above all else, healthcare is changing. The roles of providers, whether doctoral or master level, are adapting yearly if not monthly. Competition for jobs, salary, responsibilities may be much different in 5-7 years than now. The economy, though nowhere near 2008 mess, is still prone to dips and drops. The amount of folks who can afford out of pocket therapy may not exist at the same level when OP is ready to start her practice. Lots of risks and limited guaranteed reward in PP. Hopefully OP keeps all options open no matter the school she picks, to develop skills that can be used in variety of settings.

Just to clarify! Tuition is high- but the extra things you listed aren't accurate. Adelphi has 4 years of classes, the 4th year is part-time status. So tuition is only paid for 4 years (the fourth year is about half off). The 6 years reflects people having extended time to write their dissertation. In this school you don't typically buy books- classes mostly go off of articles accessible through the library's database. Adelphi pays a small stipend for yearly travel to conferences.

Congratulations on your acceptance! Adelphi has a wonderful dynamic clinical training program.

 

[LauraH8214]

Just to clarify! Tuition is high- but the extra things you listed aren't accurate. Adelphi has 4 years of classes, the 4th year is part-time status. So tuition is only paid for 4 years (the fourth year is about half off). The 6 years reflects people having extended time to write their dissertation. In this school you don't typically buy books- classes mostly go off of articles accessible through the library's database. Adelphi pays a small stipend for yearly travel to conferences.

Congratulations on your acceptance! Adelphi has a wonderful dynamic clinical training program.

So glad you wrote this! No personal attack intended for this particular poster but so often on this site people are fast to respond with detailed and strong advice without getting the details of the OP's situation. I think this thread in particular demonstrates that well

 

[CheetahGirl]

Congratulations on your acceptance to Adelphi. It has a great reputation in the NYC area. And if you follow their guidelines, you'll be out in less than 6 years. I trained alongside some excellent psychologists who are now my dear friends, and they were out in 5 years and have moved on to great things/solid careers in medical centers (and they would vouch for the quality of their lives improving greatly). Best of luck!

Hey everyone!

I just got accepted to Adelphi's PhD clinical psychology program. After taking into account their scholarship and Graduate Assistantship, I would have to take out around 40K to cover the cost of living and schooling.

I really like the faculty and the work they do there, but I have reservations about taking out loans and the effect of a school's reputation/training on future employment.

Can anyone shed light on this issue? Would it be more prudent to take time off maybe get published and increase my GRE scores before reapplying to more competitive schools?

Thank you
DAO