Affected by DO-associated SDN negativity

[NurWollen]

That's the problem I frequently run into in a nutshell. It's a mixed bag- on the one hand, being a DO gives you a lot more opportunities than not being a physician, and isn't all bad depending on what you want out of your career. But on the other, you're totally written off by a lot of residencies, and your chances of getting a decent fellowship just aren't as good. That's it, both sides. But when I see that 40+ people want to be surgeons in my class and we didn't have a single categorical general surgery match last year (we had some specialty surgery matches, but not a ton) that kind of bugs me. People's expectations are all too often not in line with reality.

Yeah there are definitely way more bros in my class who talk about ortho than will ever have any chance at matching ortho, lol.

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[Dr Tony T. Chopper]

They should have taken the HPSP then. DOs and MDs are equivalently viewed by PDs in the military.

Yeah...you just put the HPSP idea back in my head. I am so torn over this already for gods sake.

 

[Mad Jack]

They should have taken the HPSP then. DOs and MDs are equivalently viewed by PDs in the military.

Not everyone that wants to be a surgeon should be in the military lol. It's a hefty sacrifice that is incompatible with the circumstances and personality of many, and a hellish one to stack on top of a surgery residency.

 

[sparos]

.

 

[68PGunner]

Yeah...you just put the HPSP idea back in my head. I am so torn over this already for gods sake.

Just a warning, it's almost guaranteed that you will pay back one year out of the four obligated year in Afganistan or Iraq as a surgeon. If it's high tempo, you might have to do two tours meaning 2-2.5 years of deployment. It's up to you how badly you want ortho. I personally know the PD of ortho at Madigan. He is an Ivy League doc who did one of my surgeries. His own words are that he doesn't care if you're a MD or DO.

 

[68PGunner]

Not everyone that wants to be a surgeon should be in the military lol. It's a hefty sacrifice that is incompatible with the circumstances and personality of many, and a hellish one to stack on top of a surgery residency.

The military during med school and residency is chill.

The pain comes after residency.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Yeah there are definitely way more bros in my class who talk about ortho than will ever have any chance at matching ortho, lol.

I still don't comprehend why anyone would want to do surgery. I mean you've clearly got to hate yourself.

 

[Mad Jack]

The military during med school and residency is chill.

The pain comes after residency.

Oh, I'm aware. Free isn't free, not by a long shot.

 

[D4C]

I still don't comprehend why anyone would want to do surgery. I mean you've clearly got to hate yourself.

They enjoy assaulting people with knives. Those gallbladders got what was coming to 'em.

 

[68PGunner]

I still don't comprehend why anyone would want to do surgery. I mean you've clearly got to hate yourself.

For the money and also the fact that they don't think they're real doctors unless they're cutting up people and fixing them up.

There's that adrenaline high and euphoric feeling after a successful surgery. It's a similar feeling that you have after sex.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

For the money and also the fact that they don't think they're real doctors unless they're cutting up people and fixing them up.

There's that adrenaline high and euphoric feeling after a successful surgery. It's a similar feeling that you have after sex.

Fair enough. I guess I shouldn't be talking about anythig since my interests are toward a field most ppl want nothing to do with.

 

[Danglebells]

Given that only 22% of general internal medicine residents eventually go into general internal medicine, my 85% number is far more in-line with statistics than your personal attacks- if 78% of IM residents specialize, you can damn well expect that more than the average do from MGH. The specialties that those residents are able to specialize in, however is largely determined by their residency's perceived strength.

You are right, but its still irrelevant to the main point of this thread. Included in that 85% are ID, Nephro, gero, palliative, adolescent, sports med, rheum... etc which are all options to match from any residency

boiling down everything here for the OP
we all agree that DO schools will close some doors for you.

My main point is that the doors you close arent likely to have any major effect on your career as a physician because most medical students dont want to be interventional cardiologists.

Mad Jack disagrees and says that they will shut you out from a much more significant pool of fellowship options via the difficulty of matching into competitive residencies.

bringing this all back to the question of taking the DO acceptance or reapplying to MD schools-->

waiting another year does not guarantee that you get an MD acceptance. it gets harder every year, and unless you make your year off count, you look worse as an applicant.

waiting a year delays your eventual salary as an attending, which will cost you 250K+ dollars in the big picture

waiting a year usually delays your life plans (marriage, buy a house, have a family)

if you get into an MD school this cycle, you go there and dont look back.

if you only get the DO acceptance, you go there and dont look back.


If you do end up waiting the year for the MD school, you damn well better go into plastics or something

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

You are right, but its still irrelevant to the main point of this thread. Included in that 85% are ID, Nephro, gero, palliative, adolescent, sports med, rheum... etc which are all options to match from any residency

boiling down everything here for the OP
we all agree that DO schools will close some doors for you.

My main point is that the doors you close arent likely to have any major effect on your career as a physician because most medical students dont want to be interventional cardiologists.

Mad Jack disagrees and says that they will shut you out from a much more significant pool of fellowship options via the difficulty of matching into competitive residencies.

bringing this all back to the question of taking the DO acceptance or reapplying to MD schools-->

waiting another year does not guarantee that you get an MD acceptance. it gets harder every year, and unless you make your year off count, you look worse as an applicant.

waiting a year delays your eventual salary as an attending, which will cost you 250K+ dollars in the big picture

waiting a year usually delays your life plans (marriage, buy a house, have a family)

if you get into an MD school this cycle, you go there and dont look back.

if you only get the DO acceptance, you go there and dont look back.


If you do end up waiting the year for the MD school, you damn well better go into plastics or something

What precentage of IM graduates go to subspecialties that are competitive tho like GI or Cards?

Also in your opinion how hard is Heme/Oncs for a DO?

 

[Danglebells]

What precentage of IM graduates go to subspecialties that are competitive tho like GI or Cards?

Also in your opinion how hard is Heme/Oncs for a DO?

the 3 links on this page will be helpful to you. http://www.nrmp.org/match-data/fellowship-match-data/

Heme/Onc is very very competitive. no idea how DOs fit in there though. my guess is that you will have to work very hard to have a shot, and you should have a backup plan.

 

[hallowmann]

As an m1, I've been flirting with the idea of stidying for step 1 now. I'm doing very well in my classes but wonder if I could do more. What would you recommend an m1 do for board prep at this point? We just started cardiovascular and respiratory system based learning this semester...

Study harder for the material you're covering now. You read that physio book twice. Read it again. Not for the exam, but so you completely understand everything it's trying to say, and so when 2nd year comes around and you have to study it again, it'll be that much easier to remember. You can use FA to direct what's important, but you'll miss the value of the majority of it until next year.

Actual "board studying" is useless, because review books are that, just review books, and no matter what you forget a huge chunk of what you learn months down the line. In fact, it's so much that you don't even really know what you know until you read that one bullet point in first aid and a story runs through your head about how and why that's an important concept (based on what you learned in classes).

I imagine when people say study for boards from Day 1, they mean study for retention and knowledge, not memorize first aid now in M1.

 

[yanks26dmb]

Study harder for the material you're covering now. You read that physio book twice. Read it again. Not for the exam, but so you completely understand everything it's trying to say, and so when 2nd year comes around and you have to study it again, it'll be that much easier to remember. You can use FA to direct what's important, but you'll miss the value of the majority of it until next year.

Actual "board studying" is useless, because review books are that, just review books, and no matter what you forget a huge chunk of what you learn months down the line. In fact, it's so much that you don't even really know what you know until you read that one bullet point in first aid and a story runs through your head about how and why that's an important concept (based on what you learned in classes).

I imagine when people say study for boards from Day 1, they mean study for retention and knowledge, not memorize first aid now in M1.

I spoke to a well respected professor at my school about this very topic. He's a youngish physician too, so seems to be more in the loop than some other professors. My take away was to pretty much ignore things like DIT, Firecracker, etc because they lull you into a false sense of security/only teach you disjointed facts (albeit many of them).

I got the sense that the best thing I could do to set myself to perform well on Step 1 was reading things like Lippincotts, Robbins, and a good Phys book this summer/follow up with related COMBANK questions. Sounds like just reading these texts and really understanding all the concepts would put me in position to do well when it came time for more serious board studying

 

[Goro]

Drill instructor to doctor recruits (screaming): "THE PURPOSE OF THE SCALPEL IS TO KILL!!!"

They enjoy assaulting people with knives. Those gallbladders got what was coming to 'em.

 

[cbrons]

Do DO. No one cares about the MD/DO thing after residency.

Except the American Osteopathic Association.

From their own website, they feel like DOs are the only physicians trained to listen.

http://doctorsthatdo.org/difference

We are Doctors of Osteopathic Medicine and the way we practice health care is different. We don’t see patients. We see people.

I would say the AOA very much cares about the "superiority" of DO over MD.

 

[PlutoBoy]

Except the American Osteopathic Association.

From their own website, they feel like DOs are the only physicians trained to listen.

http://doctorsthatdo.org/difference

We are Doctors of Osteopathic Medicine and the way we practice health care is different. We don’t see patients. We see people.

View attachment 200002
I would say the AOA very much cares about the "superiority" of DO over MD.

Wow. They put themselves at the level of the NP movement with that move.

However, the AOA is different than our DO colleagues.

 

[jordansetron]

Except the American Osteopathic Association.

From their own website, they feel like DOs are the only physicians trained to listen.

http://doctorsthatdo.org/difference

We are Doctors of Osteopathic Medicine and the way we practice health care is different. We don’t see patients. We see people.

View attachment 200002
I would say the AOA very much cares about the "superiority" of DO over MD.

Im not a fan of the awareness campaign going on right now, but I certainly dont think the intention was to imply DOs are better than MDs at being compassionate physicians. Not sure what they are hoping to accomplish with this kind of marketing though. A little more awareness that DOs are trained physicians could be beneficial come next thanksgiving when I dont have to explain that I'm not a "bone doctor" .

I have to admit that I get my feelings hurt just a little tiny bit whenever I read an article about medicine and physicians are only referenced as being MDs...

 

[cbrons]

Im not a fan of the awareness campaign going on right now, but I certainly dont think the intention was to imply DOs are better than MDs at being compassionate physicians.

oh you are wrong, that is exactly the point of the campaign

 

[IsWhat]

oh you are wrong, that is exactly the point of the campaign

The campaign seems pretty low yield to me. The vast majority of patients don't know - and don't care - about the differences between MDs and DOs. And plenty of the patients who have gone out of their way to actually learn about said differences prefer to see a DO anyways.

 

[beachbum353353]

Im not a fan of the awareness campaign going on right now, but I certainly dont think the intention was to imply DOs are better than MDs at being compassionate physicians. Not sure what they are hoping to accomplish with this kind of marketing though. A little more awareness that DOs are trained physicians could be beneficial come next thanksgiving when I dont have to explain that I'm not a "bone doctor" .

I have to admit that I get my feelings hurt just a little tiny bit whenever I read an article about medicine and physicians are only referenced as being MDs...

http://gawker.com/161862/newsweek-hero-md-is-totally-hero-not-so-much-md

This is the best example I have. It's a bit annoying. This should have been some awesome pro (equality) DO p.r.

 

[jordansetron]

oh you are wrong, that is exactly the point of the campaign

Yeah maybe that is the case. The AOA could be trying to overcompensate for some of the negative stuff floating around online. I remember when i was first researching Osteopathic medicine, the very first search result (and maybe still the first) was an article in Forbes that completely dumped on the profession. Another article eventually came out when the author retracted almost all of his statements but the original article is still up for display on the site.

anyway, I'm pretty sure the MDs wont be too butt hurt about it

 

[jordansetron]

http://gawker.com/161862/newsweek-hero-md-is-totally-hero-not-so-much-md

This is the best example I have. It's a bit annoying. This should have been some awesome pro (equality) DO p.r.

I know... its agonizing to see that kind of mistake made on the cover of a respectable magazine. Let's just try to get a DO in the white house and run a real campaign

 

[Psai]

No my friends are not happy with their decision but at the same time they are the biggest DO bashers I know. Its almost like they are compensating for their own insecurity. Like their unsuccessful applications are somehow more honorable because they didnt dirty their hands filling out an AACOMAS app. Meanwhile our mutual friend is entering the first year of his ortho residency. Seriously though, if you want to be a US MD, then go for it. whats a few more years out of the prime of your life anyway. Anyone and I mean ANYONE can become a US MD if they want to commit the time, effort, and resources.

Wait who's insecure? Lol

 

[67552931811]

.

 

[67552931811]

Im not a fan of the awareness campaign going on right now, but I certainly dont think the intention was to imply DOs are better than MDs at being compassionate physicians. Not sure what they are hoping to accomplish with this kind of marketing though. A little more awareness that DOs are trained physicians could be beneficial come next thanksgiving when I dont have to explain that I'm not a "bone doctor" .

I have to admit that I get my feelings hurt just a little tiny bit whenever I read an article about medicine and physicians are only referenced as being MDs...

Wait until you have an OMM exam....

The campaign seems pretty low yield to me. The vast majority of patients don't know - and don't care - about the differences between MDs and DOs. And plenty of the patients who have gone out of their way to actually learn about said differences prefer to see a DO anyways.

There are 0 differences in the actual practice of medicine. Don't be delusional.

 

[GUH]

Wait until you have an OMM exam....

There are 0 differences in the actual practice of medicine. Don't be delusional.

Maybe your experience was different but my OMM courses and exams never made any assertions that MDs have less compassion for their patients than DOs.
That being said, if you think that there are truly 0 differences, particularly in primary care, then you haven't worked with enough good DOs.

 

[67552931811]

Maybe your experience was different but my OMM courses and exams never made any assertions that MDs have less compassion for their patients than DOs.
That being said, if you think that there are truly 0 differences, particularly in primary care, then you haven't worked with enough good DOs.

I forgot there is a different standard of care for DOs than MDs, my bad.

Once again, you speak about my past as if you know me. You have 0 idea who I have and have not worked with.

And yes there are truly 0 differences. The only differences are by the 0.000001% who hold onto them. As we see here.

 

[GUH]

I forgot there is a different standard of care for DOs than MDs, my bad.

Once again, you speak about my past as if you know me. You have 0 idea who I have and have not worked with.

Let me put it this way since it seems that there is a deficit of understanding:
Some DOs in some fields actually do certain things differently than most MDs with regards to patient care. Your blanket assertion that there is 0 difference is incorrect.

 

[67552931811]

Let me put it this way since it seems that there is a deficit of understanding:
Some DOs in some fields actually do certain things differently than most MDs with regards to patient care. Your blanket assertion that there is 0 difference is incorrect.

There is no deficit. You just enjoy being a bag on here. The deficit is in your interpretation as to how I used the word "differences." Don't attempt to patronize me as if you have some sense of higher philosophical knowledge. Get off your high horse, it's a lot lower than you want to believe.

 

[GUH]

There is no deficit. You just enjoy being a d-bag on here. The deficit is in your assumption as to how I used the word "difference." Don't attempt to patronize me as if you have some sense of higher philosophical knowledge. Get off your high horse, it's a lot lower than you want to believe.

I'm sorry you're so upset.
It doesn't change the definition of the word "difference", though.

 

[67552931811]

Furious ad hominem already? That didn't take long.
It doesn't change the definition of the word "difference", though.

Lol. Pot meet kettle.

Once again assuming my emotional state (as you've done in the past).

Yup. I still didn't use it incorrectly, though.

Based on your reasoning, each DO practices medicine differently cause each of us does certain things differently-- Lol. You're something else.

 

[GUH]

Lol. Pot meet kettle.

Once again assuming my emotional state (as you've done in the past).

Yup. I still didn't use it incorrectly, though.

Based on your reasoning, each DO practices medicine differently cause each of us does certain things differently-- Lol. You're something else.

If you can show that there is no difference in the proportion of DO FPs and MD FPs who would attempt manipulation as a part of the first line treatment for chronic lumbago then you'll have proven yourself correct.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

I do sacral rocking whenever I can.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[cbrons]

Let me put it this way since it seems that there is a deficit of understanding:
Some DOs in some fields actually do certain things differently than most MDs with regards to patient care. Your blanket assertion that there is 0 difference is incorrect.

Yeah man you are totally superior. Its great that you attend a school and are getting a degree that will really teach you to do things different than the MDs. A better way. A more holistic way. #AnXrayDoesntCUasAPerson

 

[OrdinaryDO]

Not that any of this matters, but I have had several FP physicians over my years of living and traveling and I can most certainly tell 0 difference between how they talk/treat/diagnose me.

 

[GUH]

I'm sorry that you have never seen a DO who actually uses OMT.

But they do exist in the real world, and they're not all that rare.

 

[occams_razor]

Im not a fan of the awareness campaign going on right now, but I certainly dont think the intention was to imply DOs are better than MDs at being compassionate physicians.

but that is basically what every ad is saying...

from the website:
"The campaign features real DOs in both print and video ads, talking about what makes osteopathic medicine unique—our empathetic, whole-person approach to care. It targets consumers when and where they’re looking for information about health and wellness, promoting the DO difference and directing potential patients to find their DO.

Over the last six months, we conducted research with DOs, students and consumers to understand current attitudes and opinions on osteopathic medicine and identify what consumers felt were important in their health care. Interestingly, those qualities aligned quite nicely with the osteopathic philosophy. They want a doctor that is partner; a doctor involved in their health.

The AOA Brand Awareness Task Force, chaired by AOA Trustee William Burke, DO, searched for a creative agency partner to help find the bridge between the osteopathic approach to medicine and what today's consumers are looking for in a physician. The Task Force, comprised of DOs and student and lay representatives, selected Milwaukee-based Cramer-Krasselt to lead campaign message and creative development.

The first phase of the campaign launched at OMED and will run through Spring 2016. You’ll start to see print ads in prominent magazines, including Essence, Health, Yoga Journal, O Magazine, People, and Runner’s World, in mid-November. Digital content, such as banner ads and 30-second videos, are already appearing on prominent health-focused websites like MayoClinic.org, WebMD.com, and Prevention.com.

Together, the campaign ads aim to raise awareness by reaching active health seekers when and where they’re looking for health information. They will drive people to our new consumer website, DoctorsThatDrg, and the new "Find Your DO" tool to help bring new patients into your waiting rooms. Make sure they can find you by updating your profile information online.

This is just the first phase of a multi-year campaign. Out-of-home strategies and ways affiliate organizations can get involved are part of future plans."

source:
http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/about/Pages/doctors-that-DO-campaign.aspx

 

[jordansetron]

Wait who's insecure? Lol

Are you calling me insecure? Not sure if I'm insecure, but definitely frustrated with someone begrudgingly "settling" for my (and alot of other peoples) dream career. But it certainly could lead to insecurity if I stay on this forum much longer. And what I said about "anyone" being able to get into MD school was meant to be more of a motivational thing, not a derogatory thing. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Bones 2020]

I'm sorry that you have never seen a DO who actually uses OMT.

But they do exist in the real world, and they're not all that rare.

I've received OMT from both DO's at my MD/DO family practice clinic

 

[jordansetron]

but that is basically what every ad is saying...

from the website:
"The campaign features real DOs in both print and video ads, talking about what makes osteopathic medicine unique—our empathetic, whole-person approach to care. It targets consumers when and where they’re looking for information about health and wellness, promoting the DO difference and directing potential patients to find their DO.

Over the last six months, we conducted research with DOs, students and consumers to understand current attitudes and opinions on osteopathic medicine and identify what consumers felt were important in their health care. Interestingly, those qualities aligned quite nicely with the osteopathic philosophy. They want a doctor that is partner; a doctor involved in their health.

The AOA Brand Awareness Task Force, chaired by AOA Trustee William Burke, DO, searched for a creative agency partner to help find the bridge between the osteopathic approach to medicine and what today's consumers are looking for in a physician. The Task Force, comprised of DOs and student and lay representatives, selected Milwaukee-based Cramer-Krasselt to lead campaign message and creative development.

The first phase of the campaign launched at OMED and will run through Spring 2016. You’ll start to see print ads in prominent magazines, including Essence, Health, Yoga Journal, O Magazine, People, and Runner’s World, in mid-November. Digital content, such as banner ads and 30-second videos, are already appearing on prominent health-focused websites like MayoClinic.org, WebMD.com, and Prevention.com.

Together, the campaign ads aim to raise awareness by reaching active health seekers when and where they’re looking for health information. They will drive people to our new consumer website, DoctorsThatDrg, and the new "Find Your DO" tool to help bring new patients into your waiting rooms. Make sure they can find you by updating your profile information online.

This is just the first phase of a multi-year campaign. Out-of-home strategies and ways affiliate organizations can get involved are part of future plans."

source:
http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/about/Pages/doctors-that-DO-campaign.aspx

I can kinda sorta see how it could be taken like that but I think its just more self promotion of the DO brand.

 

[IslandStyle808]

I can kinda sorta see how it could be taken like that but I think its just more self promotion of the DO brand.

Or they think they are better than the X-ray machine...

 

[GUH]

I've received OMT from both DO's at my MD/DO family practice clinic

Cool.

 

[Mad Jack]

The campaign seems pretty low yield to me.

Yeah, I've been studying it for days but I don't think it's going to help much on boards.

 

[hallowmann]

Or they think they are better than the X-ray machine...

Dude, if you can't diagnose cholecystitis or a liver abscess with your magic DO hands, you weren't paying attention enough in OMM lab.

I hate to sound like the guy drinking the kool-aid, but seriously, I think people throw away OMT a little too soon. It's easy to do if you interact with people who don't use it or don't use it correctly, because you definitely don't get an idea of its usefulness in a lab full of young healthy people without MSK complaints. It also doesn't help when there are people who speak about OMT as a magical panacea without any logical, anatomic or physiologic basis.

In practice, with patients with clear pain, it can be very useful, and more importantly very helpful for patients. They can go back to carrying their newborn, working in the OR, or just doing their job without being in pain or popping NSAIDs. In fact, I still get surprised when something I learned in OMM lab (and may have thought was hocum at the time) ends up relieving pain and loosening musculature that I can actually feel.

 

[kbeitz]

Are you calling me insecure? Not sure if I'm insecure, but definitely frustrated with someone begrudgingly "settling" for my (and alot of other peoples) dream career. But it certainly could lead to insecurity if I stay on this forum much longer. And what I said about "anyone" being able to get into MD school was meant to be more of a motivational thing, not a derogatory thing. Sorry for the confusion.

According to that guy, every DO student on this forum is the definition of insecurity.

In my opinion, everyone on this forum is insecure about something all the way up to the attendings, but some are more deluded about it than others. A little bashing in every thread is the norm.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Dude, if you can't diagnose cholecystitis or a liver abscess with your magic DO hands, you weren't paying attention enough in OMM lab.

I hate to sound like the guy drinking the kool-aid, but seriously, I think people throw away OMT a little too soon. It's easy to do if you interact with people who don't use it or don't use it correctly, because you definitely don't get an idea of its usefulness in a lab full of young healthy people without MSK complaints. It also doesn't help when there are people who speak about OMT as a magical panacea without any logical, anatomic or physiologic basis.

In practice, with patients with clear pain, it can be very useful, and more importantly very helpful for patients. They can go back to carrying their newborn, working in the OR, or just doing their job without being in pain or popping NSAIDs. In fact, I still get surprised when something I learned in OMM lab (and may have thought was hocum at the time) ends up relieving pain and loosening musculature that I can actually feel.

If anything, I like that OMM gets the student comfortable with touching the patient. My point was aimed to say "why are they making a comparison?" It is like they are trying to state that they are superior to "something" and uses these convoluted messages to do so.

 

[Bones 2020]

Sometimes I feel like the whole DO/MD thing will go like the AFL/NFL merger did