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An ER doctor was charged with abusing his baby. But 15 medical experts say there's no proof.
- Thread starter PTPuser
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Obviously I don’t know the man personally, but when 15 medical experts tell you there’s no evidence of abuse, you’d think someone might at least take a moment to consider it. Also, lol at the NP who said she’s better at bruises/skin than the peds dermatologist. But that aside, I’m blown away by how far this went. Their whole life is ruined.
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If this is true it would seem to me to be a potential HIPAA violation:
”For example, several staff members told a reporter that child abuse pediatricians at the hospital routinely review medical records of children who’ve been admitted to the ER — even when no doctor has asked for their opinion — and then weigh in on whether Child Protective Services should be called. Sometimes child abuse specialists send notes scolding ER physicians for failing to flag children, even though those physicians did not believe the child had been abused, several doctors said.”
”For example, several staff members told a reporter that child abuse pediatricians at the hospital routinely review medical records of children who’ve been admitted to the ER — even when no doctor has asked for their opinion — and then weigh in on whether Child Protective Services should be called. Sometimes child abuse specialists send notes scolding ER physicians for failing to flag children, even though those physicians did not believe the child had been abused, several doctors said.”
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Many aspects of the story seem a little odd probably because we are only seeing one side. First, a pediatric EP should know that co-sleeping with a 1-month old is going to raise eyebrows among their colleagues. Granted, it’s not a crime, but many of us who have done this for a while have seen a “SIDS” case from being smothered by a sleeping parent (I’ve had one).
Second, if he is telling the truth about what happened, what did he think would happen if his 1-month old actually had a clavicle fracture? Seems like a lose-lose situation to me. Unless brains or intestines are hanging out, it’s probably better to follow my grandma’s advice and just rub some dirt in it rather than go to the hospital with your kid.
Third and most importantly, if you are being detained by the cops, or if any government agency wants to interview you - STFU and strongly consider getting a lawyer. I don’t care if it’s a cop asking if he can search your car, a FBI agent wanting to talk about your mortgage application, or a DSS worker wanting to see your kids - you had better call Saul. Doctors too often think that they can explain their way out of situations and end up hanging themselves. This is especially true if you’re guilty.
I think there is a great chance this guy didn’t abuse his kid. The parts about EPs being pressured to change notes is very concerning and needs to be explored. On the other hand, I know he is wishing that he had done a lot of things very differently.
Second, if he is telling the truth about what happened, what did he think would happen if his 1-month old actually had a clavicle fracture? Seems like a lose-lose situation to me. Unless brains or intestines are hanging out, it’s probably better to follow my grandma’s advice and just rub some dirt in it rather than go to the hospital with your kid.
Third and most importantly, if you are being detained by the cops, or if any government agency wants to interview you - STFU and strongly consider getting a lawyer. I don’t care if it’s a cop asking if he can search your car, a FBI agent wanting to talk about your mortgage application, or a DSS worker wanting to see your kids - you had better call Saul. Doctors too often think that they can explain their way out of situations and end up hanging themselves. This is especially true if you’re guilty.
I think there is a great chance this guy didn’t abuse his kid. The parts about EPs being pressured to change notes is very concerning and needs to be explored. On the other hand, I know he is wishing that he had done a lot of things very differently.
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I'm not generally a big fan of malpractice lawsuits, but if this happened as presented, this family should be going after this NP for an obscene amount of money and her license.
As to the people who reportedly asked for records to be altered, if true, I have no idea why they shouldn't face criminal penalties.
TheSingularity
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So cause Jenny McJennerson NP can't tell mongolian spots from ecchymoses these folks get their kid taken away from them and he faces a felony charge.
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deleted547339
Do you have kids? When it’s 4AM and your kid will only sleep when you’re holding him or her and you do it.
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If I was highly suspicious that I broke my baby's clavicle by rolling on top of her -- and add to it she then seems off -- 10/10 baby is going to get checked out for an objective PE/eval. Maybe something else got fractured. Maybe a lung is down. Sure you could keep the stethoscope on her, or sneak her in and US her yourself... but why?
Yeah they should be like a rubber gumby at that age -- but stuff happens.
I think Osler's quote can apply to self-managing one's own kids too.
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If the article even remotely approximates reality, the system there has needlessly dragged a man's career through the mud, wrecked a family, plucked a child from a loving home...and endangered the health of children who in the future may not be brought in for care after an injury secondary to parental fear of going through the nightmare described in this story.
This seems like an excellent opportunity for the state to, at a minimum, formally apologize to the family, pay restitution, thoroughly review the roles of midlevels (and their opinions), and revamp its policies on investing NAT claims.
This seems like an excellent opportunity for the state to, at a minimum, formally apologize to the family, pay restitution, thoroughly review the roles of midlevels (and their opinions), and revamp its policies on investing NAT claims.
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Interesting case of tragic irony; child abuse prevention nazi-noctors abusing children. And they even got to ruin the lives of two fellow pediatric physicians and cause psychological harm to their other children for no apparent reason other than being malicious. I would bet someone high-up in that organization is a psychopath.
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deleted109597
I liken this to DUI, or even other CPS case abuses I've seen.
Someone in power has a hardon to get the man. No matter who the man is. Chicken Joe with his 7th DUI and hits a light pole? Police release him to the ER staff. A doc has more drinks than they should and then drive, even if it's only 1? Yeah, that's a grand jury right there. The law should be applied equally but we have all seen that it isn't.
One of my friends had a report to CPS on accident when he was at the hospital for his kid's broken arm. It was supposed to be reported on another kid.
CPS took years to stop investigating. It cost him well over $10,000 to fight a case that never had any merit to begin with. They simply won't give up sometimes, and I think some of it has to do with the public perception of letting "the rich" get away with it.
But at least there's hope.
www.nbcnews.com
Someone in power has a hardon to get the man. No matter who the man is. Chicken Joe with his 7th DUI and hits a light pole? Police release him to the ER staff. A doc has more drinks than they should and then drive, even if it's only 1? Yeah, that's a grand jury right there. The law should be applied equally but we have all seen that it isn't.
One of my friends had a report to CPS on accident when he was at the hospital for his kid's broken arm. It was supposed to be reported on another kid.
CPS took years to stop investigating. It cost him well over $10,000 to fight a case that never had any merit to begin with. They simply won't give up sometimes, and I think some of it has to do with the public perception of letting "the rich" get away with it.
But at least there's hope.
Wisconsin hospital pledges ‘honest and transparent’ probe of its handling of child abuse cases
An NBC News investigation uncovered concerns that child abuse pediatricians at Children’s Wisconsin have misstated evidence, leading to a family's separation.
www.nbcnews.com
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I liken this to DUI, or even other CPS case abuses I've seen.
Someone in power has a hardon to get the man. No matter who the man is. Chicken Joe with his 7th DUI and hits a light pole? Police release him to the ER staff. A doc has more drinks than they should and then drive, even if it's only 1? Yeah, that's a grand jury right there. The law should be applied equally but we have all seen that it isn't.
One of my friends had a report to CPS on accident when he was at the hospital for his kid's broken arm. It was supposed to be reported on another kid.
CPS took years to stop investigating. It cost him well over $10,000 to fight a case that never had any merit to begin with. They simply won't give up sometimes, and I think some of it has to do with the public perception of letting "the rich" get away with it.
But at least there's hope.
Wisconsin hospital pledges ‘honest and transparent’ probe of its handling of child abuse cases
An NBC News investigation uncovered concerns that child abuse pediatricians at Children’s Wisconsin have misstated evidence, leading to a family's separation.
“Our child advocacy providers receive specific training to identify child abuse or neglect and to rule out abuse or neglect where other injuries or conditions might mimic it,” Duncan and Turner wrote. “While all pediatric specialists have extensive training in their chosen fields, only child abuse pediatricians have that particular expertise.”
So is there some unique special pathophysiology of bruising in child abuse that makes it difficult for other pediatricians, including the hematologist and dermatologists, non-experts?
The hospital doubling down on this is amazing to me
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Lawyer up early, lawyer up often. Talking to the police will only hurt you.
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Yes. We used a bassinet next to our bed.
Also, there is a thread on this topic in the anesthesia subform, and a member knows this author to be less than honest. Apparently, they like to distort the truth. So, I’m interested in seeing the other side of this story.
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Was it really that hard to tell that I was joking? Seriously, rub some dirt in it? Brains and intestines hanging out? I would have thought that the sarcasm was obvious.
Yes, take your 1-month old to its doctor (but maybe not the hospital) if you think that you caused a minor injury. If you decide to come to the ED and see me and all it has is a clavicle fracture, you are probably good to go if the story fits. On the other hand, get unlucky with nurse-doctor Ratchet, or if it has a rib fracture and a PTX...well, you had better call Saul.
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I only read about 25% of it, skimming here and there.
But don't you wonder about lawyers sometimes, how can they live themselves? How can you feel proud being a lawyer when you read crap like this?
But don't you wonder about lawyers sometimes, how can they live themselves? How can you feel proud being a lawyer when you read crap like this?
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Read the charging document. There is always another side.
The defendant’s own partner suspected abuse and got the ball rolling. Multiple doctors have reviewed the case including the photos and diagnosed the child with non-accidental trauma. Thus, I’m not sure it’s fair to blame the JDs on this one...
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deleted109597
I'm not sure I'm getting the same interpretation from that filing. Are you saying partner as in, emergency partner, or partner as in, woman he sleeps with and adopted a child with?
Furthermore, we are all obligated by law to report suspected abuse. As the filing indicates, any fracture in a non-ambulatory child should raise suspicion. I will never, ever, fault the doctor for suspecting it.
And I don't know any details about this case, so I can't endorse any innocence or guilt.
But if the child abuse team are truly acting in the manner implied in the article, then we need to make sure they can't ever work in this arena again, because they are unbiased.
Furthermore, we are all obligated by law to report suspected abuse. As the filing indicates, any fracture in a non-ambulatory child should raise suspicion. I will never, ever, fault the doctor for suspecting it.
And I don't know any details about this case, so I can't endorse any innocence or guilt.
But if the child abuse team are truly acting in the manner implied in the article, then we need to make sure they can't ever work in this arena again, because they are unbiased.
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A parent panicking and bring their child in because they thought they are hurt should not be a fault. I certainly get annoyed sometimes by what they bring in, but its understandable. In fact, we treat any delay as concern for NAT, and if he had delayed and "rubbed dirt in it", that would have been front and center on the prosecution report and child advocary report.
Child advocacy is ingrained in most pediatrician emergency culture (although in this case it was an outpatient referral), and my personal experience at CHW, and they will be consulted on the phone for any questionable bruise or mechansim or request. It is not an in person consult, but a phone consult and a social worker report, and they don't typically see the patient until the follow up outpatient visit unless they are admitted if there is tangible concern. Unfortunately, we don't see the aftermath of it until cases like this are publicized, but based on what happened here, would not be uncommon.
I hope John is able to find some further recourse to get his child back. He was certainly well liked and there is enough media support that I think his career will be insulated, but whether he would want to stay at CHW after this is probably a different question. I'm not sure what a random Anesthesiologist have to do with commenting on a PEM's "honesty".
I reviewed the document which basically relies on the bruises that have already been debated and also the "impossibility" of an occult clavical fracture from a large weight on a child's shoulder/clavicle. His pediatrician (not his partner) reported it because that was all pediatricians and EM physicians have been trained to do and of the medicolegal requirements on even the softest cases.
Child advocacy is ingrained in most pediatrician emergency culture (although in this case it was an outpatient referral), and my personal experience at CHW, and they will be consulted on the phone for any questionable bruise or mechansim or request. It is not an in person consult, but a phone consult and a social worker report, and they don't typically see the patient until the follow up outpatient visit unless they are admitted if there is tangible concern. Unfortunately, we don't see the aftermath of it until cases like this are publicized, but based on what happened here, would not be uncommon.
I hope John is able to find some further recourse to get his child back. He was certainly well liked and there is enough media support that I think his career will be insulated, but whether he would want to stay at CHW after this is probably a different question. I'm not sure what a random Anesthesiologist have to do with commenting on a PEM's "honesty".
I reviewed the document which basically relies on the bruises that have already been debated and also the "impossibility" of an occult clavical fracture from a large weight on a child's shoulder/clavicle. His pediatrician (not his partner) reported it because that was all pediatricians and EM physicians have been trained to do and of the medicolegal requirements on even the softest cases.
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I’m referring to the fact the escalation of this case has much more to do with the actions and opinions of physician colleagues rather than an incompetent NP who doesn’t know the difference between a bruise and a birth mark. If the defendant is getting railroaded, the train is being driven by people with MD after their names because, once again, the system is expecting 100% sensitivity without regard to specificity. I’m just not sure there is a train on this one as the State may very well have a case.
Also, the comments about HIPPA violations make me think that those annual PowerPoint compliance ordeals are needed. You and I know that covered entities have broad authority to access charts for the purpose of investigating/reporting suspected child abuse as well as performing QA/QI activities. This happens daily on our stroke, STEMI, and trauma patients when the RN bean counter let’s you know about the great job you did getting a patient to the cath lab in under 90 minutes. It makes perfect sense that centers seeing high volumes of non-accidental trauma are also reviewing some if not all patient populations seen in their ED. I’d be very surprised if the feds will even bat an eye at this case from a HIPPA compliance perspective. Again, not directed at you, but at people saying, “HIPPA, HIPPA!”
It’s also perfectly appropriate for providers to get feedback from the people designated by the hospital to perform QA asking them if they considered non-accidental trauma in certain cases, letting them know how their charting stacks up, or even coaching providers on how to properly perform or document their exams. It only becomes a problem if inappropriate pressure is being brought to bear to fabricate findings or alter reasonable assessments. If that were happening, I’d hope that someone would go on the record and I’m not sure that is happing in this story.
Finally, I wish that the immediate response to such a story on a forum full emergency physicians would have been along the lines of, “Wow, this sounds kinda crazy. I wonder what the other side is?” In criminal justice matters there is almost always another side. Instead, the reactionary pitch forks and torches came out for the witch as soon as people saw the letters N and P.
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Call me a skeptic but I just find it incredibly difficult to believe that the system failed so egregiously that a completely innocent couple had their child taken away, especially ones as articulate and educated as these two. Maybe that’s what happened...but what are the odds? I just hope the hospital and state followed protocol and crossed their Ts and dotted their Is. Two physicians who’s child was taken and whom were wrongfully accused probably have the financial means, determination and even temerity to pursue this case to the ends of the earth through litigation until resolution. I can easily see this escalated to a hospital or state suit.
Man...this article did nothing but make me glad I don’t have any kids and that’s pretty terrible in itself. If I ever have them and lay down while putting him/her on my chest, God knows I’ll remember this story and hopefully jump up and put them in the crib! Seriously though, who puts their 1 month old on their chest and falls asleep in the same bed? Is that seriously easy to do? I feel like I’d have so many alarm bells going off.
Man...this article did nothing but make me glad I don’t have any kids and that’s pretty terrible in itself. If I ever have them and lay down while putting him/her on my chest, God knows I’ll remember this story and hopefully jump up and put them in the crib! Seriously though, who puts their 1 month old on their chest and falls asleep in the same bed? Is that seriously easy to do? I feel like I’d have so many alarm bells going off.
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“Also, the comments about HIPPA violations make me think that those annual PowerPoint compliance ordeals are needed. You and I know that covered entities have broad authority to access charts for the purpose of investigating/reporting suspected child abuse as well as performing QA/QI activities. This happens daily on our stroke, STEMI, and trauma patients when the RN bean counter let’s you know about the great job you did getting a patient to the cath lab in under 90 minutes. It makes perfect sense that centers seeing high volumes of non-accidental trauma are also reviewing some if not all patient populations seen in their ED. I’d be very surprised if the feds will even bat an eye at this case from a HIPPA compliance perspective. Again, not directed at you, but at people saying, “HIPPA, HIPPA!”
No more training for me, please! I suppose if CHW has decided their QA policy is such that the abuse team has carte blanche to comb through every chart then it would not be a violation. However, that would be quite a different standard/policy than the other similar sized institutions I’ve experience with.
Is this a particularly zealous group who trample over patient and parental rights in their quest to save children? Who knows. I agree with you that we don’t know what happened and that a clavicle fracture in a 1 month old should always be of concern. Your points are well thought out and reasonable.
No more training for me, please! I suppose if CHW has decided their QA policy is such that the abuse team has carte blanche to comb through every chart then it would not be a violation. However, that would be quite a different standard/policy than the other similar sized institutions I’ve experience with.
Is this a particularly zealous group who trample over patient and parental rights in their quest to save children? Who knows. I agree with you that we don’t know what happened and that a clavicle fracture in a 1 month old should always be of concern. Your points are well thought out and reasonable.
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If I am reading this right they were fostering the child with intent to adopt. It sounds like they and bonded with the child and for all intents and purposes viewed the child as theirs, but they hadn't actually completed the adoption process. Unfortunately for this couple the standard to remove a child from a possibly abusive foster care situation is much lower than the standard or proof to take them away from their possibly abusive parent, and the separation is also much more likely to be permanent.
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You don't know true fatigue until you've had kids. I've done that but fallen asleep in a chair sitting at like a 70 degree angle.
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Which probably will permanently impair any future ability to adopt a child. Not only that, but he’s going to have to report the felony abuse charges on every future application for hospital privileges and good luck to him having to explain all of that prior to getting privileged in a pediatric ER of all places. That’s why I would suspect, if he’s got a solid case, a monstrous lawsuit.
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deleted497653
Agree with several points
(1) Never speak to the police. It cannot help you and can only hurt you. Not talking doesn’t mean you’re guilty or have something to hide.
(2) co sleeping is not a good idea.
Yes it is that easy. Get woken up every 1.5 hours for a few weeks straight and you can sleep standing up with your eyes open haha
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This is the problem with legal documents. Anything can be written in a way to support a particular argument. Looks like there were other "bruises" on the body too, but without seeing pictures it's hard to know what was going on.
The only thing that gives me pause is - every now and then we feel there are people who are outstanding members in our society, but then are shocked to learn about how sick they can be. e.g. David Newman.
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I have laid down on the sofa and my son laying on my chest and fallen asleep.
Parents sleep with their kids in their arms all the time. Been going on for 1,000,000 years.
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That's a very bad argument.
Its pretty simple: you shouldn't ever sleep with your kid under 1 year on purpose. But, if it happens on accident its not the end of the world. Just try to not do it as best you can.
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I’m curious to know who you think he is going to sue, and for what? Is there an allegation or evidence that the hospital or doctors fabricated evidence or maliciously reported him? There are strong protections in most (?all) states for healthcare providers who report in good faith, even if wrong. Better yet, would you report a 4 week old with a clavicle fracture and what you thought were bruises? And if yes, how would you feel about being sued if you were eventually found to be wrong?
FIFY.
The criminal complaint gives you a glimpse of the evidence that the State is prepared to bring forward to support the charges. Do with it what you will...
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Just want to point out that almost everyone on this forum rushed to defend Dr. Newman and we all know how that ended...
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Who doesn't fall asleep with a small baby on them? Combine reduced sleep with a warm, cuddly baby, and you get sleep.
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Get a German Shepherd if you need cuddles. They are warmer, cuddlier, and will just bite the **** out of you if you accidentally roll over on them...as opposed to ruining your career and possibly sending you to prison.
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This case is just terrible. It's tragic either way you look at it. Either the guy negligently injured his kid scarring his family forever, or he's wrongly accused and he and his family are scarred forever. Either way, there's no winner here. I hope there's an ending where things are somehow made right, whatever that is or however that's possible, I don't know.
I'm not sure who's right here, but one thing I do know from my own experience is that co-sleeping always scared the crap out of me. I saw at least one infant death from it in the ED. And when my wife and I had our own kids, there's no way in hell either of us were going to do it, willingly. That being said, I know educated, intelligent adults, including those in the medical field, that do it. And when you have an infant, it's the most tired you're ever going to be in your life, as bad or worse than 30 hour calls during residency, and there will be tired you are holding the baby fighting hard against falling asleep. Having a newborn baby at home for the first time is legit one of the scariest things you can do as an ER doc (or anyone), considering you spend way too much time thinking about all the tragic things you've seen in the ED.
I'm not sure who's right here, but one thing I do know from my own experience is that co-sleeping always scared the crap out of me. I saw at least one infant death from it in the ED. And when my wife and I had our own kids, there's no way in hell either of us were going to do it, willingly. That being said, I know educated, intelligent adults, including those in the medical field, that do it. And when you have an infant, it's the most tired you're ever going to be in your life, as bad or worse than 30 hour calls during residency, and there will be tired you are holding the baby fighting hard against falling asleep. Having a newborn baby at home for the first time is legit one of the scariest things you can do as an ER doc (or anyone), considering you spend way too much time thinking about all the tragic things you've seen in the ED.
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Oh c'mon.
Speaking for myself, my pitchfork and torch stayed (and remain) in the garage. I have no issue with the existence of NPs per se, rather it's how they are utilized.
In this instance, I take huuuge issue when an NP's derm exam is given more credence than that of a board-certified dermatologist. Does physician-level training carry no weight?
I have no issue that the initial doc who saw the patient and triggered a CPS review. But the manner in which this review is described as being conducted is unsettling.
Is there a chance the dad is guilty? Sure.
But last I checked, that whole "innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" thing still exists. And this case appears to be riddled with doubts. Does the state really have enough solid material to file felony charges against this guy? That's a key question in my mind, and the complaint you posted begins gives me pause for concern. They start by listing 5 (likely deceased) physicians who are unconnected to the investigation yet are listed to almost appear as supporters of the charges...which already makes me think the state is reaching. They also described the NP as having specialized training yet don't describe what this actually entails. It could have been some weekend course on the beach for all we know. And if the state is going to the point of filing felony charges against this doc--which as others have stated will cripple his career--based on very shaky facts, I think that opens them up to liability should the doc be innocent.
Lastly, I agree that we should remain open for all the facts to come out. Dave Newman's eventual downfall blindsided almost everbody (myself included). At the same time, while so many people love to vilify physicians and hang them out to dry, my initial reflex is to support a colleague provided there is a reasonable basis to do so...and thus far, it certainly seems there is.
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Innocent until proven guilty. Always.
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Therein lies the problem and difference between us. However, I will say that your approach is an excellent way to be stricken from jury duty.
My initial reflex is to examine the evidence - much of which is not publicly available. So, we will just have to sit back for the next 3 weeks and see if the judge, who does have access to the State’s evidence, feels that it is sufficient to move forward or dismiss the charges on summary motion.
In the meantime, it might be a good idea to stop posting that the State’s expert witnesses can somehow be held liable for damages to his career caused by their expert testimony. They can’t. It’s a fact. Look it up.
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Uh, when did I ever say the state's witnesses should be sued? To save you time, I actually never did.
I am talking about the physician suing the state if they turn out to not have legs to stand on and in the process sullied his reputation. I'm not a lawyer but believe he could have the right to do that. Would he win? Who knows. In the meantime, as you seem to know so much, I await the opportunity to be informed.
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You are forgetting the third option - the State and its witnesses are correct that the injuries are non-accidental and unrelated to co-sleeping.
Which is why we have trials. So we all need to be prepared for the very real possibility that the judge will let this case move forward.
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No he doesn’t.
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Thank you for selectively bolding my words to lift them out of context and then tell me I have a problem.
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Well man, if you're right...then nuts.
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If you want justice, go to a whorehouse. If you want to get screwed, go to court.
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Not necessarily true.
While immunity for expert witnesses is certainly felt to be a standard, it is not a guarantee.
Marrogi v. Howard, 805 So. 2d 1118 – CourtListener.com
Marrogi v. Howard — Brought to you by Free Law Project, a non-profit dedicated to creating high quality open legal information.
Relevant section posted on behalf of the Louisiana court:
"With no sanction for incompetent preparation, however, an expert witness is free to prepare and testify without regard to the accuracy of his data or opinion. We do not see how the freedom to testify negligently will result in more truthful expert testimony. Without some overarching purpose, it would be illogical, if not unconscionable, to shield a professional, who is otherwise held to the standards and duties of his or her profession, from liability for his or her malpractice simply because a party to a judicial proceeding has engaged that professional to provide services in relation to *391 the judicial proceeding and that professional testifies by affidavit or deposition."
Granted, ShockIndex is probably correct in that suing an opposing expert witness is unlikely to bear fruit. That said, as indicated above, it is not guaranteed to fail.
