(and MD/phD) Top 20 competitiveness?

[HoboSapien]

Hi all,

I am a Junior Math and Biology major (statistics/chem minor) at a small midwestern college and will be applying this coming cycle. I was wondering about which tier medical schools should I be applying to? Are there any specific schools that look good for me?

One extraneous question: how competitive will I be for a MD/phD program?

cGPA = 3.81
sGPA = 3.87
MCAT = 37 (13P/11V/13B)

EC's:
-Co-founder and captain of a prominent athletic club on campus (2 yrs)
-Exec position (Pledge educator) and athletic co-captain for largest social fraternity on campus
-Varsity swimmer for 1 year (NCAA championship qualifier)
-Study abroad to Europe over the summer
-Order of Omega honor society (top 3% of greek students)

Other:
-1 year of botany research on campus and during the summer that will hopefully lead to a publication.
-100 clinical volunteering hours between ICU and other departments
-16 hours physician shadowing so far, but should have around 40 by june
-Around 200 hours general volunteering around community over 4 years.

4 very solid letters of recommendation - 2 from science professors, 1 from a grad level - statistics professor, and 1 from a famous cardiac surgeon (best friends father whom i've shadowed).

Is there anything else I should be doing at this point? Thanks a lot!

EDIT: I should point out that I am a white male..... yep

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[penguinism]

Applying with only a year of research won't make you very competitive for an MD/PhD program. Otherwise, your application looks pretty good for MD programs. Apply to a good mix of schools using the MSAR as a guide. What's your state of residency?

 

[mcloaf]

Looking great for MD programs. Research too weak for competitive MD/PhD programs.

 

[red doctober]

I agree with the above posters. If MD/PhD is something you really want to do, you really need to have some biomedical research experience. I hate to say this, but you should probably drop the botany lab position and join a bio lab. The math major intrigues me. If you could find a biomed lab experience that employs your advanced math knowledge, I think that would be ideal.

 

[mcloaf]

I agree with the above posters. If MD/PhD is something you really want to do, you really need to have some biomedical research experience. I hate to say this, but you should probably drop the botany lab position and join a bio lab. The math major intrigues me. If you could find a biomed lab experience that employs your advanced math knowledge, I think that would be ideal.

I think OPs problem will be more about the time and relative contributions to research projects, rather than the particular field of study.

 

[argama]

wow! everything seems great, except the research part as others have pointed out. But I would think you'd be an awesome candidate for MD only.

 

[red doctober]

I think OPs problem will be more about the time and relative contributions to research projects, rather than the particular field of study.

I disagree. He's hopeful in getting a publication. A lot of successful MD/PhD applicants don't have any. For regular MD research is research, but for MD/PhD Biomedical research is sought after.

 

[mcloaf]

I disagree. He's hopeful in getting a publication. A lot of successful MD/PhD applicants don't have any. For regular MD research is research, but for MD/PhD Biomedical research is sought after.

Some successful applicants don't have pubs, but nearly all will have more than one year of research exp. That's not very much even for research intensive MD programs.

 

[red doctober]

Some successful applicants don't have pubs, but nearly all will have more than one year of research exp. That's not very much even for research intensive MD programs.

I've definitely met people on the interview trail with as much experience as this guy. Zero botanists though.

 

[mcloaf]

I've definitely met people on the interview trail with as much experience as this guy. Zero botanists though.

Well, the large sample size reassures me of your conclusions.

I'd also be more interested in how many of those people get accepted. Then again, I'm not MD/PhD, so my info is second hand from current MD/PhD students who went through the application process.

Either way, from the OP it doesn't sound like he's totally sold on MD/PhD anyway.

Edit: I guess I should specify that my info is coming from people in competitive MSTP places, which is what is assumed OP meant because he was asking about top 20. I have no idea about the research requirements for other MD/PhDs.

 

[red doctober]

Well, the large sample size reassures me of your conclusions.

I'd also be more interested in how many of those people get accepted. Then again, I'm not MD/PhD, so my info is second hand from current MD/PhD students who went through the application process.

Either way, from the OP it doesn't sound like he's totally sold on MD/PhD anyway.

Edit: I guess I should specify that my info is coming from people in competitive MSTP places, which is what is assumed OP meant because he was asking about top 20. I have no idea about the research requirements for other MD/PhDs.

Can't tell if that was an insult against me

 

[mcloaf]

Can't tell if that was an insult against me

Not at all. Just an acknowledgement that my info is quite limited and may not apply depending on the situation.

 

[Microglia]

Agree with the above posters, competitive MD, probably need a year more research for MD/PhD. However, I think you could squeak by with current research if you really know and understand your current research inside and out, can communicate well in interviews, and have a clear idea of why you did this research and what you would like to do in the future with the MD/PhD. Essentially, if you kill the interviews, I think you could make it.

Also, try not to rule out schools solely based on rankings by usnw. If you do decide to go MD/PhD, apply to a balanced list and focus on where the best research mentors for you would be.

 

[TriagePreMed]

Definitely low on the research side for MD/PhD. Also, I doubt that your PhD interest is in botany, which will be another problem to deal with. If you spend another year of research in the PhD research field of your liking, it would be very likely to get an acceptance. Remember, when it comes to MD/PhD, the PhD committee is pretty much the one that decides your fate.

 

[HoboSapien]

I live in Missouri.

I should clarify on what I mean by "botany research" ... I did a year-long project in my school's mathematical biology program, and I just happened to be assigned to a project working on bean plants. I was the "math" guy and helped my bio student partner with the actual project, but I also built mathematical models and did my own statistical analyses of our data. Was interesting, but NOT something I want to keep doing (hence the interest in MD/phD programs). The problem is, I have essentially zero access to research I would be interested in because my institution is primarily an educational one. Sucks, man.

My dream job would be one where I could use my math and computer knowledge as well as my biology in some way.

I'm curious, though - how to undergrads who don't go to R1 schools get into these MD/phD programs when they don't have good access to faculty that will lead them to prominent publications?

 

[TriagePreMed]

I live in Missouri.

I should clarify on what I mean by "botany research" ... I did a year-long project in my school's mathematical biology program, and I just happened to be assigned to a project working on bean plants. I was the "math" guy and helped my bio student partner with the actual project, but I also built mathematical models and did my own statistical analyses of our data. Was interesting, but NOT something I want to keep doing (hence the interest in MD/phD programs). The problem is, I have essentially zero access to research I would be interested in because my institution is primarily an educational one. Sucks, man.

My dream job would be one where I could use my math and computer knowledge as well as my biology in some way.

I'm curious, though - how to undergrads who don't go to R1 schools get into these MD/phD programs when they don't have good access to faculty that will lead them to prominent publications?

Just call PIs at different institutions and see if they will let you volunteer, especially if you're planning on applying to the MD/PhD program at that school.

 

[red doctober]

I live in Missouri.

I should clarify on what I mean by "botany research" ... I did a year-long project in my school's mathematical biology program, and I just happened to be assigned to a project working on bean plants. I was the "math" guy and helped my bio student partner with the actual project, but I also built mathematical models and did my own statistical analyses of our data. Was interesting, but NOT something I want to keep doing (hence the interest in MD/phD programs). The problem is, I have essentially zero access to research I would be interested in because my institution is primarily an educational one. Sucks, man.

My dream job would be one where I could use my math and computer knowledge as well as my biology in some way.

I'm curious, though - how to undergrads who don't go to R1 schools get into these MD/phD programs when they don't have good access to faculty that will lead them to prominent publications?

Yikes, that's pretty wishy-washy and will probably not cut it at most programs. There are many, many programs to perform paid research at major research institutions during the summers. I'm not sure if the deadlines for next summer have passed or not, but once you graduate you can't apply to these. If you really, really want to do MD/PhD, you'll probably have to take at least one year maybe more doing research after you graduate. This can be in the form of the NIH IRTA or something similar, paid research position, or masters program. I wouldn't recommend a job that is primarily tech work as the other options provide much more fulfilling experiences.

 

[red doctober]

Just call PIs at different institutions and see if they will let you volunteer, especially if you're planning on applying to the MD/PhD program at that school.

If you can commute there, WashU would be a great place to do research.

 

[HoboSapien]

Thanks for the input!

 

[penguinism]

I live in Missouri.

I should clarify on what I mean by "botany research" ... I did a year-long project in my school's mathematical biology program, and I just happened to be assigned to a project working on bean plants. I was the "math" guy and helped my bio student partner with the actual project, but I also built mathematical models and did my own statistical analyses of our data. Was interesting, but NOT something I want to keep doing (hence the interest in MD/phD programs). The problem is, I have essentially zero access to research I would be interested in because my institution is primarily an educational one. Sucks, man.

My dream job would be one where I could use my math and computer knowledge as well as my biology in some way.

I'm curious, though - how to undergrads who don't go to R1 schools get into these MD/phD programs when they don't have good access to faculty that will lead them to prominent publications?

Are you interested in an MD/PhD program because you want to devote your career to research, or do you just want to participate in more meaningful research in medical school? You don't need a PhD to do research, and some medical schools (like mine) require a research project as part of a normal MD curriculum.

 

[red doctober]

Are you interested in an MD/PhD program because you want to devote your career to research, or do you just want to participate in more meaningful research in medical school? You don't need a PhD to do research, and some medical schools (like mine) require a research project as part of a normal MD curriculum.

Right, MD/PhD is a huge commitment so don't do it unless you absolutely know research is what you want to do for the rest of your life.

 

[HoboSapien]

Are you interested in an MD/PhD program because you want to devote your career to research, or do you just want to participate in more meaningful research in medical school? You don't need a PhD to do research, and some medical schools (like mine) require a research project as part of a normal MD curriculum.

I love finding out how things work and why they work, and I love exploring new ideas and thinking about things. That being said, I think I would really enjoy a career of research, especially one that has to do with medicine.

On the other hand, I love working with people, so a MD is also very appealing because of the patient contact. I guess I will have to decide at some point....

 

[TriagePreMed]

I love finding out how things work and why they work, and I love exploring new ideas and thinking about things. That being said, I think I would really enjoy a career of research, especially one that has to do with medicine.

On the other hand, I love working with people, so a MD is also very appealing because of the patient contact. I guess I will have to decide at some point....

Almost every MD/PhD I know works 4 days research 1 day patient contact.

 

[red doctober]

Almost every MD/PhD I know works 4 days research 1 day patient contact.

More like works 6 days research, 1 day of patient contact

 

[Microglia]

more like works 6 days research, 1 day of patient contact

+100000

 

[penguinism]

I love finding out how things work and why they work, and I love exploring new ideas and thinking about things. That being said, I think I would really enjoy a career of research, especially one that has to do with medicine.

On the other hand, I love working with people, so a MD is also very appealing because of the patient contact. I guess I will have to decide at some point....

Think long and hard before you make a decision. 7-8 years is a big commitment to make. Currently, I don't think that you have enough research experience to know that you want to devote your career to it. The MD/PhD programs will pick you apart at interviews, because they are looking for people that are absolutely committed to it (and can explain their reasoning behind their decision - trust me, you will get flak from skeptical interviewers who will try to rebut your answers). Most MD/PhD applicants have several years of research experience, and many have been published. A gap year (or two) is a good option for people who weren't able to get enough experience in undergrad or those who need more time to decide.

You can also consider looking at programs like Cleveland Clinic that build a research year into a 5-year curriculum. Other schools also offer 5-year programs that can get you a masters in clinical research or the like. Even if you go the traditional MD route, you always have the option to take a year off during medical school to pursue a research project.

 

[TriagePreMed]

Think long and hard before you make a decision. 7-8 years is a big commitment to make. Currently, I don't think that you have enough research experience to know that you want to devote your career to it. The MD/PhD programs will pick you apart at interviews, because they are looking for people that are absolutely committed to it (and can explain their reasoning behind their decision - trust me, you will get flak from skeptical interviewers who will try to rebut your answers). Most MD/PhD applicants have several years of research experience, and many have been published. A gap year (or two) is a good option for people who weren't able to get enough experience in undergrad or those who need more time to decide.

You can also consider looking at programs like Cleveland Clinic that build a research year into a 5-year curriculum. Other schools also offer 5-year programs that can get you a masters in clinical research or the like. Even if you go the traditional MD route, you always have the option to take a year off during medical school to pursue a research project.

I have seen this being the case more than once. A lot of people I have known have spent a year or two after graduation in a lab. The ones that do it at top labs and the NIH are at a considerable advantage. As you imply, I don't think publications are necessarily a requirement, but many do have it. I think at the least a person should have 1 or 2 poster presentations under their belt.

 

[ur2l8]

More like works 6 days research, 1 day of patient contact

Lol, legit made me laugh. Well done sir

 

[HoboSapien]

Think long and hard before you make a decision. 7-8 years is a big commitment to make. Currently, I don't think that you have enough research experience to know that you want to devote your career to it. The MD/PhD programs will pick you apart at interviews, because they are looking for people that are absolutely committed to it (and can explain their reasoning behind their decision - trust me, you will get flak from skeptical interviewers who will try to rebut your answers). Most MD/PhD applicants have several years of research experience, and many have been published. A gap year (or two) is a good option for people who weren't able to get enough experience in undergrad or those who need more time to decide.

You can also consider looking at programs like Cleveland Clinic that build a research year into a 5-year curriculum. Other schools also offer 5-year programs that can get you a masters in clinical research or the like. Even if you go the traditional MD route, you always have the option to take a year off during medical school to pursue a research project.

Great response; thank you. I have a lot to think about.