Appeal Letter for Dismissal in 4th year

[FutureDO2016]

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[costales]

Sounds petty and ridiculous to me - not knowing all your interactions with the administration. However, you're being accused of insubordination and absenteeism - basically lack of professionalism, which the courts have ruled to be an academic issue for legal purposes - meaning they're going to stay out of it if your school followed due process without being arbitrary and capricious. Regardless, I'd say go see a lawyer ASAP.

 

[thepoopologist]

That is ridiculous. You've been through too much **** to go down without a fight.

 

[SLC]

If I was your resident and you left early without permission I'd probably be mostly OK with it. Sometimes having students around is a pain. Important, I know, but still sometimes a hassle that can really slow you down. When one wants/needs to leave early I'm usually pretty understanding.

But if it was an issue and you were doing otherwise poorly on the rotation the worst that would happen from me would be a less than glowing evaluation.

I think the resident/attending went a little overboard. Did you do something to piss them off?

 

[username456789]

Did you do something to piss them off?

Yes, he left early twice without asking permission/telling anyone.

Either way, 99.9% of the time with these threads there are key elements omitted in the OP that gradually come to light as the thread progresses another page or two. Sit back, relax, and wait for the big reveal.

 

[SLC]

Yes, he left early twice without asking permission/telling anyone.

Either way, 99.9% of the time with these threads there are key elements omitted in the OP that gradually come to light as the thread progresses another page or two. Sit back, relax, and wait for the big reveal.

True, I suppose that is kind of a big deal professionalism wise. As a resident I wouldn't be pissed (I don't enjoy working with students much at this point) but it is very unprofessional and in that context it is a problem.

I never would have dreamed of simply walking off the job unannounced as a med-student.

 

[costales]

I personally don't care if a med student is around or not - they don't help me much either. Having said that, going AWOL is unacceptable behavior in this business, and no PD would tolerate it in a resident. People get fired for it every day at Wal-Mart.

 

[FutureDO2016]

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[DrBowtie]

Honestly I described everything that happened in the first post. I did not leave anything out. I am going to see a lawyer before I submit the appeal letter to the Dean. I think the Dean may allow me to finish but I'm still scared. I think the committee recommended me for dismissal because I was already on disciplinary probation and in the handbook it says after that they may recommend me for dismissal which they did. Perhaps they are just following the protocol and the Dean will let me make up those 2 evenings in January.

The ironic thing is at my site students are expected to be on call during 1 evening a month while we are on rotation all day and the next day too. This random on call thing is not at other sites and is not mentioned in the handbook.

I would not use your last paragraph as any sort of defense.

You screwed up. The thing is that had you just asked and said you have boards coming up, they'd have likely let you go home early.

 

[costales]

Did you fail that rotation?

 

[costales]

The thing is that had you just asked and said you have boards coming up, they'd have likely let you go home early.

No kidding.

 

[FutureDO2016]

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[FutureDO2016]

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[Mad Jack]

Should I get a lawyer? Not sure what to do but really scared about my future. I haven't been dismissed it but am in the appeal process (writing an appeal letter to the Dean since the P&M committee recommended me for dismissal last week) and school still considers me a student until the Dean makes the final decision. I have 6 months left of my 4th year, and have gone on interviews already...

Talk to a lawyer, as this is no time to be taking advice on SDN. Your defense is terrible though, in regard to your leaving while on call, and shows a complete lack of ownership of your behavior.

 

[DrBowtie]

No I passed all my rotations and passed Level 1 and Level 2 PE and waiting on CE scores for first attempt.

This on call thing was at another hospital and outside of my rotation. It was my fault and unprofessional and I said that it was my mistake at the meeting but they didn't care.

Does anyone think the Dean will dismiss me or will he accept my appeal?

What does the bolded mean?

 

[Doctor Bob]

If the P&M committee has heard your case and recommended dismissal to the dean, it's kind of a done deal. The dean isn't going to go against the committee's recommendations.

 

[FutureDO2016]

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[235009]

Your attitude is alarming. Your excuses are absolutely terrible. As a med student you're supposed to be emulating the residents. Residents can't just go home when they're supposed to be on call because they were tired and hungry... that's absolutely ridiculous. To put things in perspective you claim you weren't feeling well two random days one month apart, didn't tell anyone about it and just made the executive decision to go home. That's not even remotely believable. Assuming your rotation is two months long that means you never did the required call during your rotation. The only way to look at this from the dean's perspective is that you thought you got away with it the first time so you decided to skip out again the following month. To make matters worse you took this ridiculous gamble while already on disciplinary probation!!

I would think the dean is more likely to uphold your dismissal. Feel free to speak to a lawyer but I don't see it helping and will undoubtedly put a huge rift between you and the school and basically end your career in medicine. They haven't done anything illegal. The best you can do now is to throw yourself at the mercy of the dean. The fact that you offered to make up the two days next month is absolutely laughable as that is not a punishment - that was the original assignment. You AT LEAST need to offer to make up twice as many days, preferably a week of call. Or maybe offer to do a one month surgical subI where you would obviously work your butt off. You need an attitude adjustment STAT - stop making excuses and blowing this off. Your career is on the line.

 

[Elevencents]

Have to agree with the past post. Leaving unexcused twice, no matter the circumstances, is unacceptable behavior. Any employer I have worked for would terminate someone for walking out on the job the first time, much less the second. This could have been simply avoided by speaking with the resident prior to leaving.

 

[kenjixshadow]

I agree with MeatTonardo and MJ. You're in a huge trouble. Get a lawyer ASAP. You need to work out a deal with your dean & apologize the P&M committees. Ask them for a remediation. One or two days is not going to fly. You'll probably have to redo the whole rotation again (and this is a better scenario you can ask for). It's unbelievable of how you thought it was okay to leave without asking for a permission.

 

[235009]

You're in a huge trouble. Get a lawyer ASAP. You need to work out a deal with your dean & apologize the P&M committees.

Those two pieces of advice are distinctly at odds with each other. If you lawyer up you've burned the bridge and there will be no way they'll work out a deal with you. You'll be dismissed and there will be no legal action you can take because you were wrong and already on probation so the dismissal is justified. Lawyers are useful when there's some foul play involved which there doesn't seem to be in this case.

 

[jw3600]

Am I seriously seeing the word "hungry" as an excuse for...anything really? Jesus Christ. What a horribly pathetic attempt to explain inappropriate behavior.

 

[FutureDO2016]

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[user3]

Had other students also left early without asking permission? Did nobody say anything to you after the first time you left early? It also doesn't seem fitting for them to contact the school before first saying something to you.

Either way, despite other people's points about unprofessional it might have been, this punishment does not fit the crime.

 

[235009]

This on call activity was not a part of the rotation. I went to each rotation and only left after my preceptor told me to go. I passed every rotation and even got letters of rec from them. The on call activity is a special extra activity students at my core site are expected to do once a month so this requirement is not for every student and it's an extra thing.

At the meeting I did say it was my fault, I should have asked before I left and didn't feel well/hungry aren't good reasons but that was the truth. They expect students to work 15 hours with no break and only students at my site?

If it is a required activity at your site it's part of the rotation. Not all rotation sites have the same requirements. That was also true at my school. At the university hospital we had to take call during surgery while those at the VA did not. Working 15 hours without a break is completely reasonable and standard for residents, in fact 16 hour shifts are the maximum allowed for interns and 28 hours for more senior residents. During my surgery rotation in med school I'd routinely come in at 4AM and sometimes not leave until 9PM... those weren't even the "on call" days. Your arguments are total BS and your attitude is extremely concerning.

 

[SLC]

If it is a required activity at your site it's part of the rotation. Not all rotation sites have the same requirements. That was also true at my school. At the university hospital we had to take call during surgery while those at the VA did not. Working 15 hours without a break is completely reasonable and standard for residents, in fact 16 hour shifts are the maximum allowed for interns and 28 hours for more senior residents. During my surgery rotation in med school I'd routinely come in at 4AM and sometimes not leave until 9PM... those weren't even the "on call" days. Your arguments are total BS and your attitude is extremely concerning.

For once I agree with MT. If I was a residency program and I caught wind of this, there's no way I rank you. I don't want to deal with someone who isn't giving their all whenever they're sick or hungry.

Intern year is hard. I've lost 15-20lbs already just from all the walking and not having time for meals a majority of the time. (And I wasn't 15-20lbs overweight either.

I can't afford to slack off when I'm tired/hungry/not feeling 100%

 

[Goro]

Being the parent of two kids has taught me that there are two sides to every story. At my school, 'tis student probably would have failed the rotation, and of course hauled up before the Student Conduct Committee.

But given that it's harder to get out of med school than in (meaning, we do everything I our power to get you to graduation once admitted), I can't help but feel that the OP is omitting key details.

If OP can demonstrate that other students have left the work place without asking permission, and not get punished, then that will be the career saver.

Had other students also left early without asking permission? Did nobody say anything to you after the first time you left early? It also doesn't seem fitting for them to contact the school before first saying something to you.

Either way, despite other people's points about unprofessional it might have been, this punishment does not fit the crime.

 

[dfib slim]

Beige the parent of two kids has taught me that there are two sides to every story. At my school, 'tis student probably would have failed the rotation, and of course hauled up before the Student Conduct Committee.

But given that it's harder to get out of med school than in (meaning, we do everything I our power to get you to graduation once admitted), I can't help but feel that the OP is omitting key details.

If OP can demonstrate that other students have left the work place without asking permission, and not get punished, then that will be the career saver.

With the OPs history of being on disciplinary probation this situation was probably the last straw.

 

[235009]

Beige the parent of two kids has taught me that there are two sides to every story. At my school, 'tis student probably would have failed the rotation, and of course hauled up before the Student Conduct Committee.

But given that it's harder to get out of med school than in (meaning, we do everything I our power to get you to graduation once admitted), I can't help but feel that the OP is omitting key details.

If OP can demonstrate that other students have left the work place without asking permission, and not get punished, then that will be the career saver.

The details provided are damning enough and in my view enough cause for dismissal with a history of being on disciplinary probation.

I am inclined to say this could probably be presumed. I also do not like the fact that nobody said anything to the student the first time they left early, which could have left the impression that they didn't mind.

The residents and attending who were on were probably completely different seeing as these two incidents happened a month apart. Residents and attendings have more important things to worry about than policing med student attendance and there should be no expectation that they will let you know that they've caught you doing something you knew was wrong. My guess is that a resident/attending either reported this to the course director or dean and it was looked into further and found out that he skipped both times or both were mentioned on separate evals. Either way it doesn't matter what kind of "impression" was left... that's not a valid argument either.

 

[DrBowtie]

Even though OP screwed up multiple times, still don't think that should be enough to be booted as a fourth year.

 

[user3]

Even though OP screwed up multiple times, still don't think that should be enough to be booted as a fourth year.

100% agree. dismissal should only be reserved for the most egregious of circumstances.

 

[Goro]

I agree, and this is why I think that more is going on than we know.

Even though OP screwed up multiple times, still don't think that should be enough to be booted as a fourth year.

100% agree. dismissal should only be reserved for the most egregious of circumstances.

 

[FutureDO2016]

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[costales]

They expect students to work 15 hours with no break and only students at my site?

I hope you don't talk like that in your meeting with the dean. They're already angry at you. Don't antagonize them further. If you argue with them, you'll lose. If you try to reason with them, you'll lose. What they want to hear is how you're going to turn a new leaf and follow the rules when nobody's watching. As MT suggested above, your best hope is for the dean to modify the committee's decision with new conditions for penance so you can eventually graduate.

If you decide to see a lawyer - if it helps you feel better in the sense that you haven't missed anything: Keep in mind that unless there are new facts to support a due process violation or discriminatory intent, you really don't have a case. BTW Don't let a lawyer write your appeal letter, since lawyers are trained to be adversarial and your Plan A should be begging for mercy - and pray.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

Even though OP screwed up multiple times, still don't think that should be enough to be booted as a fourth year.

I both agree and disagree.

On one hand, I think the OP's behavior was pretty 'unprofessional' (hate that word but I think it applies here), and I think it was royally stupid to pull something like this when OP was already on some sort of probation. If I did this as a resident, I would be hauled in front of the PD and would quite likely be fired.

On the other hand - OP is not a resident, and as you guys all well know, the rules ain't exactly the same when you're a med student. I wouldn't have dreamed of busting out of a rotation like this as a med student and always made sure to touch base with an attending or resident or SOMEBODY when leaving...but the fact of the matter is that I can remember more than a few people in my med school class doing stuff like this. It certainly never resulted in dismissal.

As much as I'd like to join in the hellfire and brimstone here, I think booting this kid is going a bit too far but agree that there's probably more problems under the surface.

OP: if you ultimately make it through to residency, just know that you can NEVER do this while you're a resident, fellow, or frankly attending. EVER. Period. If you pull this stuff when you're in residency and make silly excuses, your ass is going to get kicked so hard you won't even know what happened to you.

Furthermore, even if you manage to save your seat in med school you might find that your school will attempt to report this to residency programs...I'd certainly try to if I was the school. And as stated above, few residencies are going to want to rank somebody doing this stuff.

 

[22031 Alum]

I was on put on disciplinary probation this past summer due to calling other core rotation sites since my current site would not host me after I had failed COMLEX Level 1 and the school wanted me to go back to the school's location to finish cores. Basically, they said it was bad behavior for calling other sites and not listening to the Associate Dean for Clinical Affairs.

You were put on probation for making phone calls?? Just making phone calls?? Or did your attempts to find your own rotation sites interfere with what your school was trying to set up for you??

A student failing a Step and needing to go off cycle with rotations can sometimes involve quite a lot of effort on the part of the people who make rotation schedules. I imagine that the situation at your school is that it's easiest to have off-cycle students at the main site. Basically, your failure and need to retake cost you the luxury/privilege of being able to pick your rotation site. Did you make repeated calls to get around this, to the point of harassment? Did you take advantage of or lie to someone at another site who didn't know where the school wanted you to be placed in order to get the site you wanted? Did you miss your assigned start date because you were trying to get placed somewhere else?

I could see any one of those actions leading to disciplinary probation- not just a phone call to ask about rotation placement.

And. The very point of probation is that you get a bigger punishment for a smaller subsequent offense. So yeah, one of my students who skipped out on call would usually just fail the rotation. Someone who did it while already on probation... that would be up to the school to decide, but expulsion sounds quite plausible.

 

[FutureDO2016]

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[FutureDO2016]

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[22031 Alum]

I have to hope for the best and hopefully the Dean will give me a chance given I have 1 more semester left.

That's probably all you can do. I'd only recommend a lawyer if your expulsion holds, and you have proof that someone else who was already on probation had also skipped out on a rotation requirement and had not gotten the same punishment. Otherwise you're probably out of luck since they could easily point to documented escalating disciplinary actions- probation, then expulsion.

 

[user3]

I had emailed other sites to see if they could have me and they called the school when I asked about the possibility and school thought it was easier to be at their site but after the meeting I didn't contact a site. I apologized and completed rotations then I find out about this on call thing last week.

when had you been told to not contact other sites?

 

[NotAProgDirector]

This is a difficult situation. If the call requirement for the rotation was at the main site and the rest of the rotation was at a distant site, you can see how people might be very angry -- it's not like the OP did a bunch of good work at a site and then left early. Instead, they simply didn't show up, or left early, at a site that didn't know them at all. In the setting of other academic difficulties, the OP looks lazy and entitled -- what they want trumps everything else. Honestly, some of their explanations support this.

At the meeting I did say it was my fault, I should have asked before I left and didn't feel well/hungry aren't good reasons but that was the truth. They expect students to work 15 hours with no break and only students at my site?

You should have gotten something to eat. Or brought granola bars (or similar) with you if this was going to be an issue. In a residency program you will regularly work 16 hour shifts.

I don't think this is fair after all the tuition I paid and all the loans I have.

Just because you pay your tuition, you don't get to graduate. Your performance needs to be satisfactory. Which it wasn't. And whether you have loans or not is not your school's problem, and not a reason for keeping you. The fact that you'd write this here is very concerning.

Thoughts going forward:

1. You should talk to a lawyer if you are terminated. A lawyer's job is to make sure that they followed the rules. If the handbook says that you need to get a letter 30 days beforehand signed in red ink alerting you that you could be terminated, and they sent you a letter but it was signed in black ink, then a lawyer might be able to force them to take you back because they didn't follow their own protocol. Also, as others have mentioned, if other people in the same position have had different punishments, that suggests discrimination and might be arguable. But a lawyer (and the courts) give academic institutions wide latitude to determine the professional requirements of the job -- they will not overturn the school's decision because you think it's "unfair".

2. Your best case scenario (and what you should probably ask for) is:
A. You fail the rotation and need to repeat the entire thing.
B. You apologize to the people you affected, directly, and sincerely.
C. Every residency program to which you applied is notified of this issue and the consequences.

 

[FutureDO2016]

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[EggRolls]

Please delete/close this thread. Thank you.

keep us updated! You were always one of my favorite underdog. Good luck!

 

[costales]

I hope you can turn this thing around. Best of luck.

 

[jayceee]

OP, according to your previous posting history you failed COMLEX Level 1 twice. That means you were already on someone's radar. Instead of keeping your head down and finishing your program, you kept screwing up. I sincerely hope your dean takes pity on you and lets you finish your program.

 

[Goro]

The business of students calling rotation sites on their own, when they're told not to do so, is apparently a serious one for Clinical Education Dep'ts. One of my own students did this and got called on the carpet and received a tongue lashing for his troubles.

I suspect that the OP was told NOT to do this and went ahead and did it anyway. At the minimum, the OP was facing a sanction in being require to do a rotation closer to home (so to speak) and it looked like s/he was trying to evade that.

OP's only chances is that if his/her sanctions have not been applied to other students in the same boat. No medical school has ever been sued when their actions have been shown to not be arbitrary or capricious.

I hope you don't talk like that in your meeting with the dean. They're already angry at you. Don't antagonize them further. If you argue with them, you'll lose. If you try to reason with them, you'll lose. What they want to hear is how you're going to turn a new leaf and follow the rules when nobody's watching. As MT suggested above, your best hope is for the dean to modify the committee's decision with new conditions for penance so you can eventually graduate.

If you decide to see a lawyer - if it helps you feel better in the sense that you haven't missed anything: Keep in mind that unless there are new facts to support a due process violation or discriminatory intent, you really don't have a case. BTW Don't let a lawyer write your appeal letter, since lawyers are trained to be adversarial and your Plan A should be begging for mercy - and pray.

As I expected, there were other parts to the story.

OP, according to your previous posting history you failed COMLEX Level 1 twice. That means you were already on someone's radar. Instead of keeping your head down and finishing your program, you kept screwing up. I sincerely hope your dean takes pity on you and lets you finish your program.

 

[costales]

As I expected, there were other parts to the story.

Yep. I couldn't tell if OP was an incorrigible rebel or if he was being railroaded, or both. Nevertheless, it's a sad cautionary tale.

 

[hallowmann]

OP, I really feel for you, because I remember giving you advice after your second Level 1 failure, and I had hoped all would be well once you passed. I hope they find some way for you to finish, which would require at a minimum repeating the rotation and a lot of apologizing and begging. Good luck.

Had other students also left early without asking permission? Did nobody say anything to you after the first time you left early? It also doesn't seem fitting for them to contact the school before first saying something to you.

Either way, despite other people's points about unprofessional it might have been, this punishment does not fit the crime.

I hate to say this, but this really is not a surprising course of action. Stop thinking of it as, oh he just missed 2 half days, and think of it how anyone else in the medical field would. OP is off-schedule due to multiple Level 1 failures, OP did an action he was told not to do by Clin Ed, OP was put on probation, and then OP did an action that would justify him failing the rotation at pretty much any site I've been to so far.

Sure, a lot of the time residents and attendings might not notice/care, but if they did it would pretty much mean a rotation failure, which in and of itself would be grounds to recommend dismissal for someone already on probation. Sure, if this was the first academic or professional problem, most promotion and graduation committees would just make them repeat the rotation or maybe even the year, and sure maybe some committees would be more lenient and although it would be possible for them to recommend dismissal, they might choose a more merciful course. Unfortunately, this was not the case and the truth of the matter is that there are grounds for dismissal in this case. I will also say that this would be the case at any medical school.

It sucks, but anyone on probation knows they're walking on eggshells. I wouldn't think about leaving without getting some reassurance that it was OK from a resident or attending and I'm not on probation. I've even been in the situation where I've had to wait hours just to see someone who could let me go (texting hey can I leave after being there for 10 hrs doesn't feel right when the resident is there for like 20 hrs).

 

[Postictal Raiden]

OP, according to your previous posting history you failed COMLEX Level 1 twice. That means you were already on someone's radar. Instead of keeping your head down and finishing your program, you kept screwing up. I sincerely hope your dean takes pity on you and lets you finish your program.

I hate to kick a man when he's down, but this post hits the nail. Not long ago, I remember the OP posting about the possibility of dismissal due to failing the boards. That ordeal should've been a good teaching lesson.

With that said, I truly wish the OP the best of luck. It really stinks to have gone through all this efforts, only to end up with tons of loans and no degree.

 

[user3]

OP, I really feel for you, because I remember giving you advice after your second Level 1 failure, and I had hoped all would be well once you passed. I hope they find some way for you to finish, which would require at a minimum repeating the rotation and a lot of apologizing and begging. Good luck.



I hate to say this, but this really is not a surprising course of action. Stop thinking of it as, oh he just missed 2 half days, and think of it how anyone else in the medical field would. OP is off-schedule due to multiple Level 1 failures, OP did an action he was told not to do by Clin Ed, OP was put on probation, and then OP did an action that would justify him failing the rotation at pretty much any site I've been to so far.

Sure, a lot of the time residents and attendings might not notice/care, but if they did it would pretty much mean a rotation failure, which in and of itself would be grounds to recommend dismissal for someone already on probation. Sure, if this was the first academic or professional problem, most promotion and graduation committees would just make them repeat the rotation or maybe even the year, and sure maybe some committees would be more lenient and although it would be possible for them to recommend dismissal, they might choose a more merciful course. Unfortunately, this was not the case and the truth of the matter is that there are grounds for dismissal in this case. I will also say that this would be the case at any medical school.

It sucks, but anyone on probation knows they're walking on eggshells. I wouldn't think about leaving without getting some reassurance that it was OK from a resident or attending and I'm not on probation. I've even been in the situation where I've had to wait hours just to see someone who could let me go (texting hey can I leave after being there for 10 hrs doesn't feel right when the resident is there for like 20 hrs).

The failures aren't relevant though. they are looking at being dismissed for conduct, not academic, issues. Ending someone's career for calling other sites and leaving a rotation early is a draconian punishment. Even that guy at Case messed up more times than this (and more seriously) before being dismissed.