applying as "disadvantaged"

[aliziry]

As I am at Duke I can sing Kumbayah with the best of them.

I wager your patients love you mate.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[8744]

I wager your patients love you mate.

Oh they do. Many of them have expressed dismay that I am leaving in June as they say I am the first doctor they have ever had who treats them with respect.

But part of that is not patronizing them or treating them like helpless children. I also don't adopt that irritating pretend compassion which is de riguer nowadays. You know what I'm talking about. Indigent or not, disadvantaged or not, sometimes your patient is just coming in to have his blood pressure meds tweaked a little and does not need the full monty of compassionate caring. Sometimes they just want to be treated like real people and not a member of a monolithic ethnic or social class which is also fashionable around here.

 

[aliziry]

Oh they do. Many of them have expressed dismay that I am leaving in June as they say I am the first doctor they have ever had who treats them with respect.

But part of that is not patronizing them or treating them like helpless children. I also don't adopt that irritating pretend compassion which is de riguer nowadays. You know what I'm talking about. Indigent or not, disadvantaged or not, sometimes your patient is just coming in to have his blood pressure meds tweaked a little and does not need the full monty of compassionate caring. Sometimes they just want to be treated like real people and not a member of a monolithic ethnic or social class which is also fashionable around here.

I agree but the key word is sometimes. Not everyone from every group is the same. Are all whites rich. Are all blacks poor. No. That is my point. The ADCOMS will see whos full of bollucks and whos not.

 

[doublepeak]

THANKS for making my day! It was so nice to hear there is another premed student out there who has a parent in prison, who felt the same angst about it being looked down on by people. I never told any of my friends in college about my parents for that reason, only my very best friend knew. I completely agree with you about trying to use that space to explain away a confusing family situation without letting it take over my application, and of course instead of scaring some poor interviewer. I am so relieved it went so well for you, and that you didn't get any harsh reactions.

I had some bad experiences years ago telling people (lots of condescending looks and equating me to my father) so I think this whole process made me feel much more comfortable talking about it (I guess I actually accepted it) even with interviewers who didn't read my file before. I never got ANY negative reactions from interviewers where it was brought up. Before I would avoid/change the subject. Although I have experienced the stigma the general population has against people on governmental assistance and criminals (which sadly extents to their families many times) everyone just commented on my tenacity and never pushed the subject.

 

[8744]

I agree but the key word is sometimes. Not everyone from every group is the same. Are all whites rich. Are all blacks poor. No. That is my point. The ADCOMS will see whos full of bollucks and whos not.

Fair enough.

 

[chandelantern]

Oh they do. Many of them have expressed dismay that I am leaving in June as they say I am the first doctor they have ever had who treats them with respect.

But part of that is not patronizing them or treating them like helpless children. I also don't adopt that irritating pretend compassion which is de riguer nowadays. You know what I'm talking about. Indigent or not, disadvantaged or not, sometimes your patient is just coming in to have his blood pressure meds tweaked a little and does not need the full monty of compassionate caring. Sometimes they just want to be treated like real people and not a member of a monolithic ethnic or social class which is also fashionable around here.

I'm not trying to argue, but your comments on this thread do not elude to you caring at all about your disadvantaged patients. From what I remember while reading your posts, you said stuff like "hopeless crack heads" and "keep them in their place" and that they have no ambition (which sounds like you think they deserve to be in the positions they are in or at least it is their own fault if they don't rise out of it.) You may be able to provide adequate care for these individuals, but all I have witnessed from your posts is arogance.

 

[8744]

I'm not trying to argue, but your comments on this thread do not elude to you caring at all about your disadvantaged patients. From what I remember while reading your posts, you said stuff like "hopeless crack heads" and "keep them in their place" and that they have no ambition (which sounds like you think they deserve to be in the positions they are in or at least it is their own fault if they don't rise out of it.) You may be able to provide adequate care for these individuals, but all I have witnessed from your posts is arogance.

I am not the one keeping crack heads in their place, and they do have a place which is not where you live. Is there any one who wants to argue that their is a large, relatively immobile underclass in our society who are chronically afflicted with drug abuse, absentee parenting, and crappy public schools for those who run the guantlet of all the other social pathologies?

And there are all sorts of hopeless crackheads tottering around in your town and mine. If you think you are doing them a favor by patronizing them or coming up with a nicer-sounding euphemism then knock yourself out. And I assure you that the guy I discharged last week with HIV, CRI, CHF, CAD, and all the other bad abbreviations had no higher ambition upon his discharge than to obtain some beer and some crack. I know because he told me so and the reason he told me is because I don't talk to him like he is an idiot or like I the school marm lecturing a recalcitrant child.

I think you misread my posts through the lens of your own political correctness.

 

[8744]

I guess my point is that you will eventually encounter many patients who will not succumb to the compassion algorithm they will cram into your head over there at Mayo.

You will realize this when you watch some earnest young resident lecturing a hoary old recalcitrant doper who was shooting heroin before you were born about the need to change his ways.

 

[Saluki]

I guess my point is that you will eventually encounter many patients who will not succumb to the compassion algorithm they will cram into your head over there at Mayo.

You will realize this when you watch some earnest young resident lecturing a hoary old recalcitrant doper who was shooting heroin before you were born about the need to change his ways.

But the fact that they're not going to change doesn't mean that they don't deserve our compassion.... I'm probably a tad more cynical than chandelantern, but I think it's good to have faith in people and their ability to change. Maybe she won't be able to convince that old doper to change his ways, but what does it hurt to try?

 

[chandelantern]

I guess my point is that you will eventually encounter many patients who will not succumb to the compassion algorithm they will cram into your head over there at Mayo.

You will realize this when you watch some earnest young resident lecturing a hoary old recalcitrant doper who was shooting heroin before you were born about the need to change his ways.

I can tell your very passionate about this issue and I'm sure I sound like an optimistic with blinders on to the rest of the world. I am not disagreeing with you that individuals who are in these positions will likely never change their ways, but I still feel they deserve respect as human beings. I know I haven't seen half of it, but my father is an alcoholic and drug user and I have worked at a community clinic where there are many people who have similar lifestyles (one clinic solely for iv drug users). I agree that lecturing them on how bad drugs are and yada yada isn't going to probably make a difference - but harm reduction can. what about using clean needles? reducing the spread of infectious diseases? if it was entirely hopeless, why do you devote your time and energy?

Sorry to the OP - this has deviated far from your initial question.

 

[sjmirror]

I can tell your very passionate about this issue and I'm sure I sound like an optimistic with blinders on to the rest of the world. I am not disagreeing with you that individuals who are in these positions will likely never change their ways, but I still feel they deserve respect as human beings. I know I haven't seen half of it, but my father is an alcoholic and drug user and I have worked at a community clinic where there are many people who have similar lifestyles (one clinic solely for iv drug users). I agree that lecturing them on how bad drugs are and yada yada isn't going to probably make a difference - but harm reduction can. what about using clean needles? reducing the spread of infectious diseases? if it was entirely hopeless, why do you devote your time and energy?

Sorry to the OP - this has deviated far from your initial question.

haha, its ok. its just annoying to have to read over panda's posts, he sounds like a huge douchebag and a pretty crappy doctor.

 

[Dmizrahi]

So i have a question regarding the application process: If you're a good student with a 3.85 GPA and a decent MCAT scores (30-33) range, does it financially make sense to apply to a company that offers editing capabilities and taylor's your primaries and secondary applications to get into medical school? I trust that these people could get me in to where i want to go most likely, but the question is how much of a difference do they actually make in you as a candidate? How much weight does a phenomenol personal statement over a good personal statement carry? Or a phenomenol work activities section verse a decent work activities section? Are these the area's that schools choose students as better than others, because i feel like it gets to a point where two students A and B each have 3.9 GPAS and 33's on their MCATS...does it come down to that portion of their application?

 

[8744]

my question concerns the AMCAS application that asks about "disadvantaged status". to be brief, i'm currently a sophomore a top private school (HYPS), on basically close to a full ride (need based scholarship). ive taken the mcat already (long story why), and got a mid 30s score, however, my gpa is in the lowish 3.4 range. im indian.

im thinking ahead to the application, having just seen a copy of last year's, and am not sure whether i should put myself down as disadvantaged when i apply. i grew up in a single parent household (father was estranged; dunno where he is now), mom is a computer administrator. my family got food stamps while i was in elementary and middle school, etc, etc, until my mom got her computer programming degree and got a job. amcas' criteria for disadvantaged status seemed to be strictly that - if your family ever good food stamps, welfare, etc, then you should put it down.

i would want to writethis down if it lets the adcoms get a fuller picture of my background, but i dunno if they will think that im no longer "disadvantaged" because of the school i attend; and thus perceive me as dishonest or something. in that case, i would should just not bother and not discuss it at all.

so i guess my q boils down to, that perception is probably a very subjective thing. my siblings have done pretty well despite our background; all went to top colleges, etc. ive done alrite in college too - i even have a summer job now at a biotech private equity firm because of connections ive made in college. these are not the things that typically characterize someone who is poor. yeah, i was hella poor growing up (and still am, actually), but does going to a private school, etc, partaking in all of its opportunities, disqualify me from still writing about my background?

thanks all.

And you have been a physician for how long now?

 

[8744]

I can tell your very passionate about this issue and I'm sure I sound like an optimistic with blinders on to the rest of the world. I am not disagreeing with you that individuals who are in these positions will likely never change their ways, but I still feel they deserve respect as human beings. I know I haven't seen half of it, but my father is an alcoholic and drug user and I have worked at a community clinic where there are many people who have similar lifestyles (one clinic solely for iv drug users). I agree that lecturing them on how bad drugs are and yada yada isn't going to probably make a difference - but harm reduction can. what about using clean needles? reducing the spread of infectious diseases? if it was entirely hopeless, why do you devote your time and energy?

Sorry to the OP - this has deviated far from your initial question.

Who says I don't respect them as human beings? I'm just pointing out that many who live at the bottom of society are locked in a pattern of behavior from which they will never escape unless we either declare martial law and force them to clean up at gun point or spend a small fortune for every patient to track, feed, medicate, and physically restrict them from access to drugs.

Even then they will find a way to indulge their habits. As you will find out, the drug addict who can't scrape bus fare to get home after you discharge him is resourceful enough to support a 400 dollar a week drug habit. Just shows you what you can do when you are motivated.

 

[8744]

haha, its ok. its just annoying to have to read over panda's posts, he sounds like a huge douchebag and a pretty crappy doctor.

And where do you go to medical school again?

(sound of crickets chirping)

 

[dbhvt]

Who says I don't respect them as human beings? I'm just pointing out that many who live at the bottom of society are locked in a pattern of behavior from which they will never escape unless we either declare martial law and force them to clean up at gun point or spend a small fortune for every patient to track, feed, medicate, and physically restrict them from access to drugs.

Even then they will find a way to indulge their habits. As you will find out, the drug addict who can't scrape bus fare to get home after you discharge him is resourceful enough to support a 400 dollar a week drug habit. Just shows you what you can do when you are motivated.

Panda,

I am a little confused. The conversation may have reached a different topic now, but it seems like, for you, the population is composed of two types of individuals. 1) disadvantaged crackheads-- the members of the mostly immobile underclass. We have compassion for these people and would love to help them improve their lot, but realize it is pointless because they are in an intractable position. 2) not disadvantaged noncrackheads--people with the personal resources and motivation to work for a goal that involves delayed gratification. If you happen to be one of those rare individuals who would have been placed in group 1, but somehow managed to get into group 2, you were in group 2 all along and don't deserve any extra help or applause for what is not an incredible acheivement, but some confusion as to what group you originally belonged to.

Did I get this right?

 

[8744]

Panda,

I am a little confused. The conversation may have reached a different topic now, but it seems like, for you, the population is composed of two types of individuals. 1) disadvantaged crackheads-- the members of the mostly immobile underclass. We have compassion for these people and would love to help them improve their lot, but realize it is pointless because they are in an intractable position. 2) not disadvantaged noncrackheads--people with the personal resources and motivation to work for a goal that involves delayed gratification. If you happen to be one of those rare individuals who would have been placed in group 1, but somehow managed to get into group 2, you were in group 2 all along and don't deserve any extra help or applause for what is not an incredible acheivement, but some confusion as to what group you originally belonged to.

Did I get this right?

No. You got it wrong and you are confused. The population is mostly composed of normal people with the usual fund of talent and ambition most of whom are fairly happy with life except that when you and I see them they have varying degrees of illness which depending on the severity are things they will either get over or will end up killing them.

And no, I am not a cheerleading squad and you don't deserve any applause for the incredible achievement of making good decisions. This used to be sort of expected of people. The fact that making good decisions is neither required nor expected is more a symptom of the general decline of common sense in our approach to the underclass and a very good reason why so many people are locked into it.

Now, you can get all indignant and huff and puff and throw your politically correct platitudes around but you'll see what I'm talking about some day.

 

[dbhvt]

No. You got it wrong and you are confused. The population is mostly composed of normal people with the usual fund of talent and ambition most of whom are fairly happy with life except that when you and I see them they have varying degrees of illness which depending on the severity are things they will either get over or will end up killing them.

And no, I am not a cheerleading squad and you don't deserve any applause for the incredible achievement of making good decisions. This used to be sort of expected of people. The fact that making good decisions is neither required nor expected is more a symptom of the general decline of common sense in our approach to the underclass and a very good reason why so many people are locked into it.

Now, you can get all indignant and huff and puff and throw your politically correct platitudes around but you'll see what I'm talking about some day.

1) I'm not asking for applause. I didn't check the box.
2) I respect you, but should tell you that it is funny to see you huff and puff about others getting indignant.
3) I reject the idea that you have a monopoly on truth because you are a resident, have seen a few more addicts than I have, and, as I recall, are about 10 years older than me.
4) I have a friend who is an ex-addict, was homeless for a good portion of his life, and is now applying to medical school.
a) His (hopefully) eventual acceptance to medical school is a much greater achievment than yours or mine. He might need special consideration to make it happen, considering he hasn't had the resources or connections to put together the portfolio of academic and extracurricular acheivements of a standard pre-med student.
b) I find the idea that giving him this special consideration for his remarkable achievement is somehow making it more difficult for him to escape the 'underclass' completely and utterly ludicrous.

 

[8744]

3) I reject the idea that you have a monopoly on truth because you are a resident, have seen a few more addicts than I have, and, as I recall, are about 10 years older than me.

I have no monopoly on the truth, however there are some general truths about addicts. Wait and see.

 

[michjen23]

It is good that you are here Panda to make sure that you tell us all "This used to be sort of expected of people." At least now I understand that a large part of the generation I will be interviewed by are part of the club that harps about in the good old days, and back during the war...but I doubt they would have the guts to say what you seem to believe to a real person's face which appears to be that you enjoyed the good old days because back then people like me were forced to stay in "their place"... At least I know I wasn't wasting my time worrying about people like you

I have no monopoly on the truth, however there are some general truths about addicts. Wait and see.

 

[8744]

It is good that you are here Panda to make sure that you tell us all "This used to be sort of expected of people." At least now I understand that a large part of the generation I will be interviewed by are part of the club that harps about in the good old days, and back during the war...but I doubt they would have the guts to say what you seem to believe to a real person's face which appears to be that you enjoyed the good old days because back then people like me were forced to stay in "their place"... At least I know I wasn't wasting my time worrying about people like you

When I was in high school, it was not only exceedingly rare for a high school girl to be with child but the number of children born into single parent homes was a small fraction of what it is today. Most of the social pathologies which we enjoy today are a direct result of the destruction of the family, particularly black families, by well meant but disasterous social policies.

Responsibilty was expected of people. This used to be ingrained in the fabric of our culture and manifested itself either through social taboos (such as not getting pregnant or not getting a girl pregnant to whom you were not married) or through the universally accepted work ethic that made taking welfare shameful and expected everyone to support themselves and their families.

Now, I'm not that old but I have seen things get worse in this area in my adult life.

And I am forcing no one to stay in their place. Just observing that they will stay in that place no matter what you do because the byzantine system of grievance mongering which you call social justice is not structured to encourage initiative or ambition in the underclass towards anything other than "sticking it to the Man."

 

[EvoDevo]

haha, its ok. its just annoying to have to read over panda's posts, he sounds like a huge douchebag and a pretty crappy doctor.

You don't need to resort to attacking others here, Sir. Furthermore, if you had even half the life experience of Panda then you'd be in a place to talk. Try being more constructive in your comments.

Thanks,

The Management

 

[Sanctuary]

As I previously mentioned, I think people get caught up on "disadvantaged" or "advantaged". But it would seem, much like everything else in society, that it is quite a broad spectrum of varying (dis)advantages. Does it not seem somewhat arbitrary that we draw a blurry line at one point (ie, if you have one(1) parent who has used crack at least 4 times in an 8 month period) and say that everyone who is socially "above" the threshold is somehow at an advantage as opposed to someone who is on the other side of that line? Since clearly, it would be foolish to attempt to quantify one's level of disadvantage, I believe a system that removes the category all together would be more beneficial to all.

Since our population in this country is not BLACK or WHITE, but rather a brilliant mix of colors, the same is applied to socioeconomic (dis)advantage. I believe that by reading one's personal statement, other essays, and life accomplishments, an admissions committee can qualitatively determine if that person is appropriate for that particular school. The need for yet another socioeconomic title such as "disadvantaged" just further chastises an application. Further, the same could be applied to the question asking if you have ever been convicted of a felony. Since a felony could be something as simple as you and your spouse accidentally signing the wrong lines on your federal tax return, to aggrevated murder in the first degree, it would seem that again, this line between felony or no felony is somewhat irrelevant and arbitrary.

Perhaps the question is better phrased by asking:

How would you rate your level of societal advantage?

1) extremely greatly disadvantaged
2) very greatly disadvantaged
3) greatly disadvantaged
4) disadvantaged
5) neither disadvantaged nor advantaged
6) advantaged
7) greatly advantaged
8) very greatly advantaged
9) extremely greatly advantaged
10) uber rad

 

[sjmirror]

And where do you go to medical school again?

(sound of crickets chirping)

ive shadowed enough doctors to be able to tell from your posts that you're not a particularly compassionate or intelligent one.

 

[sjmirror]

You don't need to resort to attacking others here, Sir. Furthermore, if you had even half the life experience of Panda then you'd be in a place to talk. Try being more constructive in your comments.

Thanks,

The Management

to be clear - im not criticizing his "life experience", whatever they may be. i do have a problem with his judgment (or lack thereof). he seems to be taking his life experiences too seriously. while they may have been formative for him, he can't extrapolate that to everyone else. he insists on doing so, so i dont find his posts constructive. anyway, i posted on the thread originally to get some feedback on whether or not my own experiences would qualify me for putting myself down as disadvantaged. this question has been answered. thank you.

 

[8744]

ive shadowed enough doctors to be able to tell from your posts that you're not a particularly compassionate or intelligent one.

Well hell, buddy. That's good enough for me. Maybe you can skip medical school and go straight to residency.

 

[8744]

to be clear - im not criticizing his "life experience", whatever they may be. i do have a problem with his judgment (or lack thereof). he seems to be taking his life experiences too seriously. while they may have been formative for him, he can't extrapolate that to everyone else. he insists on doing so, so i dont find his posts constructive. anyway, i posted on the thread originally to get some feedback on whether or not my own experiences would qualify me for putting myself down as disadvantaged. this question has been answered. thank you.

The other thing I want to know is this: If being married and having children doesn't count as being disadvantaged because these things are self-inflicted, why does having a history of drug use qualify one as disadvantaged? I can't think of anything more self-inflicted than shooting heroin or managing the complicated logistics of a crack habit. I mean, bad as the problem is crack doesn't grow on trees or fall like manna from heaven. It takes a concerted effort to be a drug addict. Hell, it takes most people a concerted effort to begin being drug addicts.

Let's not even talk about the large quantities of free will required to inflict a meth lab on one's self.

 

[TygerTyger]

Some of the posters act as if being disadvantaged is some kind of choice or perk. When you have to put yourself through college, your application is obviously affected. Some of us cannot buy MCAT scores with expensive review courses and create extracurricular lists that are as impressive if we work full time, or study as much as people whose parents are happily footing the bill. I am lucky to be able to balance two jobs, one 35+ hours and another 15+ hours with decent extracurriculars and good grades, but it is ridiculous not to acknowledge class differences can make it very hard for some people to put together an application as competitive as actually reflects their abilities. Why do some people on this forum hate poor people?

 

[EvoDevo]

to be clear - im not criticizing his "life experience", whatever they may be. i do have a problem with his judgment (or lack thereof). he seems to be taking his life experiences too seriously. while they may have been formative for him, he can't extrapolate that to everyone else. he insists on doing so, so i dont find his posts constructive. anyway, i posted on the thread originally to get some feedback on whether or not my own experiences would qualify me for putting myself down as disadvantaged. this question has been answered. thank you.

Then don't go calling people "douche." Often, the perjorative ends up describing the accuser more than the recipient. Case in point. Besides, openly insulting other users is a violation of the TOS and grounds for a suspension of posting privileges. Capiche?

As to your original post: go ahead, though it may not make a whit of difference. FWIW, I had similar numbers to you and an even "worse" life experience and it never qualified for "disadvantaged." Your mileage may vary. In my opinion, "disadvantaged" is code nowadays for "under represented minority."

Finally, as much as you may not want to hear it, YOU HAVEN'T CARED FOR PATIENTS. You're not even in medical school. I am, and if there's one thing that I've learned is that you'd better listen to those ahead of you with real world experiences. Would you presume to tell me or Panda (both former Marines) what life is like in the service of your country? I sure hope not. So why would you try and do it here?

OTOH, I can see that maybe you don't want to get dragged down into a vision of medicine that's less than happy and kumbaya. I respect where you're coming from, and I can respect your motives. However, and this is key, life doesn't often care what we want. If you go into medicine with your eyes open the shock to your system will be that much less severe when you find out how it really is. And as well, if after that you still want to change things then by all means do what you can to make it happen. But please don't tell those who've gone before you in your desired field "how it is." Okay? Great.

 

[trustwomen]

"Disadvantaged" is a ridiculous concept. Some of the people on this forum clamoring for "disadvantaged" status are probably some of the most intelligent and articulate people in the country who will have no trouble getting into medical school and the best residency programs.

No. It is not in any way a ridiculous concept. The point is, they are that much more impressive than another person with the same stats and ECs who did not have to overcome the circumstances of their birth and struggle their way out of mediocrity and misery. They deserve the scholarships, and the courting, and the early decisions, far more than your "average" premed with wealthy parents who never held a job in his life. I am impressed with these people because I honestly don't know if I could have done what they did. I am certainly ambitious, and have had the opportunity to develop my intelligence, but would that be the case if my early life had been worse? I honestly don't know. I work in a homeless shelter and I am occasionally amazed at the intelligence of some of the residents - most of which has unfortunately morphed into manipulation, rationalization and cunning. One girl, if she had not been pimped by her mother for coke at age 12 (and consequently developed an addiction herself), might well have become a med student someday. She is that bright, and has a very strong personality. Instead, she has HIV and HepC and sells her body on the street.

Disadvantaged students deserve kudos for their strength and courage. I do agree, however, that your own dumb choices don't count as a "disadvantage" - just the circumstances of your birth and childhood.

 

[michjen23]

The other thing I want to know is this: If being married and having children doesn't count as being disadvantaged because these things are self-inflicted, why does having a history of drug use qualify one as disadvantaged? I can't think of anything more self-inflicted than shooting heroin or managing the complicated logistics of a crack habit. I mean, bad as the problem is crack doesn't grow on trees or fall like manna from heaven. It takes a concerted effort to be a drug addict. Hell, it takes most people a concerted effort to begin being drug addicts.

Let's not even talk about the large quantities of free will required to inflict a meth lab on one's self.

I guess I misunderstood my father when he cried about wishing he could kick his habit for years, I should have said nah you want this I must be misunderstanding your pain and emotions? Or according to you panda I should have reminded him that back in the "good old days" people didn't complain about their problems (well of course.. unless it is having too many hours to work during residency or needing some days off here and there, because obviously that is a hardship that deserves some space on the internet .

I should have reminded him of all his choices being free will before he killed himself from the guilt of his own life...It is really sad that you believe the pain of being a "crack head" is equilvalent to the disadvantages you seem to think you have faced raising your family...last I checked it probably took you some "concerted" effort to become a father?

 

[aliziry]

Some of the posters act as if being disadvantaged is some kind of choice or perk. When you have to put yourself through college, your application is obviously affected. Some of us cannot buy MCAT scores with expensive review courses and create extracurricular lists that are as impressive if we work full time, or study as much as people whose parents are happily footing the bill. I am lucky to be able to balance two jobs, one 35+ hours and another 15+ hours with decent extracurriculars and good grades, but it is ridiculous not to acknowledge class differences can make it very hard for some people to put together an application as competitive as actually reflects their abilities. Why do some people on this forum hate poor people?

Amen brother. That is on the money. Sometimes people just chalk that up to well our parents generation did it so it is not a big deal. It is a big deal when nearly everyone else does not have to work as much as we do just to survive let alone do school work.

 

[aliziry]

As to your original post: go ahead, though it may not make a whit of difference. FWIW, I had similar numbers to you and an even "worse" life experience and it never qualified for "disadvantaged." Your mileage may vary. In my opinion, "disadvantaged" is code nowadays for "under represented minority."

Not everyones case is the same. Making black and white judgements based on your life experience makes no sense. Not everyone can join the Marines. No I am not knocking the military at all. Alot of people probably had a harder upbringing than you did. And what does this have to do with being an URM.

 

[8744]

I guess I misunderstood my father when he cried about wishing he could kick his habit for years, I should have said nah you want this I must be misunderstanding your pain and emotions? Or according to you panda I should have reminded him that back in the "good old days" people didn't complain about their problems (well of course.. unless it is having too many hours to work during residency or needing some days off here and there, because obviously that is a hardship that deserves some space on the internet .

I should have reminded him of all his choices being free will before he killed himself from the guilt of his own life...It is really sad that you believe the pain of being a "crack head" is equilvalent to the disadvantages you seem to think you have faced raising your family...last I checked it probably took you some "concerted" effort to become a father?

And yet, I have admitted patients for "crack lung" who have surived a one week hospital course without crack effortlessly and with no withdrawal symptoms to speak of. If you look back at their records you will often see six or seven admissions a year for the same complaint with the same drying out period followed by the inevitable return to drug use. Sure, there are other contributing factors but free will has a lot to do with it. I had a patient this month who only smokes crack on friday night and is admtted pretty much every other week for chest pain from her Friday night activities. You might as well make a big rubber stamp with the orders and the HPI because other than the date everything is the same every time she presents right down to the flattened T-waves on her anterior leads. In a way this is great for the admitting resident but one day she's going to drop dead and then we'll look silly with the pre-fabricated note, "Patient was resting comfortably and was in no acute distress."

Is she addicted? Every Friday night? Come on. The discharge note always includes some variation of, "Counseled the patient to consider some other Firday night activity" but she comes back just the same. She just likes crack...and beer...and again I know because I asked her.

This is this lady's ambition in life. To save up her disabiity check for a big binge on a Friday night.

 

[EvoDevo]

Not everyones case is the same. Making black and white judgements based on your life experience makes no sense. Not everyone can join the Marines. No I am not knocking the military at all. Alot of people probably had a harder upbringing than you did. And what does this have to do with being an URM.

You're not paying attention:

1. I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to sjmirror's comment regarding shadowing. My Marine comment was in response to that.

2. No one's talking about black and white judgements. Did you read my post at all? If you're talking about dealing with patients, I'll take the advice of someone who's been there over someone who hasn't any day. Now, I may take that "experienced" advice with a grain of salt, but it's inherent value is more than that of the uninformed novice. Clear?? Cool.

3. Harder upbringing? Most applicants probably didn't have it harder. But this isn't the place to discuss that.

4. Just stating my opinion of what "disadvantaged" probably means to an adcom. It's just that, an opinion. Feel free to disagree.

 

[EctopicFetus]

First of all unless someone puts your lips to that crack pipe the first time it is nothing more than choice... then....

Disadvantaged? please.. I came here with my mom and dad when I was 18 months old, they didnt speak a lick of english and had $400 to their names.. My dad fixed a/c's, delivered pizza and drove taxi cabs while my mom worked in a clothing store while learning english at a community college and eventually earning her nursing degree, then my dad went on and got a better job..

Disadvantaged? yeah tell me about it... Would I use this excuse to try to take a spot from someone else of course not... take some responsibility for your actions, my parents would whip me silly if my grades werent in order, I would have priviledges taken away.. you do know TV and playing outside are priviledges for kids. I went on to play HS football and then on to an Ivy league college where I worked every yr I was there. At one point I had 2 jobs and majored in chemistry.. Disadvantaged... whatever....

 

[EctopicFetus]

Oh and the HS I went to was a craphole.. People fighting all the time, I had friends thrown in jail for armed robbery, bringing guns to school etc.. I knew where I had to draw the line because my parents taught me...

 

[michjen23]

You win! you and your parents are wonderful now does that give you an excuse for bashing people with drug problems? It is really sad that someone like you who has clearly accomplished so much needs to put people who have nothing down

First of all unless someone puts your lips to that crack pipe the first time it is nothing more than choice... then....

Disadvantaged? please.. I came here with my mom and dad when I was 18 months old, they didnt speak a lick of english and had $400 to their names.. My dad fixed a/c's, delivered pizza and drove taxi cabs while my mom worked in a clothing store while learning english at a community college and eventually earning her nursing degree, then my dad went on and got a better job..

Disadvantaged? yeah tell me about it... Would I use this excuse to try to take a spot from someone else of course not... take some responsibility for your actions, my parents would whip me silly if my grades werent in order, I would have priviledges taken away.. you do know TV and playing outside are priviledges for kids. I went on to play HS football and then on to an Ivy league college where I worked every yr I was there. At one point I had 2 jobs and majored in chemistry.. Disadvantaged... whatever....

 

[EctopicFetus]

You win! you and your parents are wonderful now does that give you an excuse for bashing people with drug problems? It is really sad that someone like you who has clearly accomplished so much needs to put people who have nothing down

Uh I didnt bash people with drug problems I merely pointed out that they have this drug problem by choice. I know people whose parents are EtOH addicts and for this reason never put booze to their lips. This is the same I reason I never used heroin...

Also Im not putting anyone down I am simply saying making excuses for people is a crock of liberal bs. You lie in the bed you make.

 

[aliziry]

Uh I didnt bash people with drug problems I merely pointed out that they have this drug problem by choice. I know people whose parents are EtOH addicts and for this reason never put booze to their lips. This is the same I reason I never used heroin...

Also Im not putting anyone down I am simply saying making excuses for people is a crock of liberal bs. You lie in the bed you make.

What about their children. Does it now become their fault for their parents errors. I think this argument has gone very far off base.

This is from a government website.

An individual from a disadvantaged background is defined as one who comes from an environment that has inhibited the individual from obtaining the knowledge, skill, and abilities required to enroll in and graduate from a health professions school, or from a program providing education or training in an allied health profession; or comes from a family with an annual income below a level based on low income thresholds according to family size published by the U.S. Bureau of Census, adjusted annually for changes in the Consumer Price Index, and adjusted by the Secretary, HHS, for use in health professions and nursing programs.

http://bhpr.hrsa.gov/dsa/pages/disdef.htm

What about those people?

 

[EvoDevo]

Since we've wandered far from the OP's original question, I'm moving this thread.

 

[EctopicFetus]

There is this real fine line and at some point you have to say tough poop. Am I wrong? Couldnt every person have an excuse? Clearly there are people who have it tougher than others. I dont doubt that for a second. Heck like 40% of my classmates dont take out financial aid... I am disadvantaged because my mommy and daddy cant cover 50K per yr..

The real question isnt whose fault it is that someones parents are f ups.. rather the question is why should Johnny be "disadvantaged" because his parents arent crackheads but we should allow timmy into med school because his mom cant lay off the crack pipe.

BTW the government is far from the ideal source for these issues, clearly you have to agree that just because the govt defines something some way or decides to act a certain way it doesnt make it right.

In my world there is no room for apologists. No one is perfect, I do things that piss my wife off but what I dont do is blame someone else for my actions or inactions. People can change if they want to.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Im checking out of this thread.. good luck. Hopefully at some point your views will change. This is a complete crock of bs..

 

[aliziry]

There is this real fine line and at some point you have to say tough poop. Am I wrong? Couldnt every person have an excuse? Clearly there are people who have it tougher than others. I dont doubt that for a second. Heck like 40% of my classmates dont take out financial aid... I am disadvantaged because my mommy and daddy cant cover 50K per yr..

The real question isnt whose fault it is that someones parents are f ups.. rather the question is why should Johnny be "disadvantaged" because his parents arent crackheads but we should allow timmy into med school because his mom cant lay off the crack pipe.

BTW the government is far from the ideal source for these issues, clearly you have to agree that just because the govt defines something some way or decides to act a certain way it doesnt make it right.

In my world there is no room for apologists. No one is perfect, I do things that piss my wife off but what I dont do is blame someone else for my actions or inactions. People can change if they want to.

The reason I put that link was that the AAMC wants to identify people they feel are disadvangtaged. Not everyone who checks that box are reall disadvantaged and ADCOMS know that. We dont know how much weight they really place into these things, but that does not mean we should bash everyone who checks that boxs as lazy and wanting a leg up.

 

[sjmirror]

Then don't go calling people "douche." Often, the perjorative ends up describing the accuser more than the recipient. Case in point. Besides, openly insulting other users is a violation of the TOS and grounds for a suspension of posting privileges. Capiche?

As to your original post: go ahead, though it may not make a whit of difference. FWIW, I had similar numbers to you and an even "worse" life experience and it never qualified for "disadvantaged." Your mileage may vary. In my opinion, "disadvantaged" is code nowadays for "under represented minority."

Finally, as much as you may not want to hear it, YOU HAVEN'T CARED FOR PATIENTS. You're not even in medical school. I am, and if there's one thing that I've learned is that you'd better listen to those ahead of you with real world experiences. Would you presume to tell me or Panda (both former Marines) what life is like in the service of your country? I sure hope not. So why would you try and do it here?

if you want to be straight-up and blunt to people, then the military is perfect for that. i say this because im detecting a hint of an undertone re the military. it seems to me that extrapolating military experience to civilian medicine doesn't fit. there's always going to be inefficiencies and patients who piss you off in civilian medicine, but that comes with the job (and the high pay). and if that pisses you off so much, just do military med, where for the most part everyone you treat on base is probably pretty healthy, doesn't do any serious drugs, etc.

the guys i know from my high school who joined the military, or who i met in rotc were pretty matter of fact about having to do so; either for the scholarship money or the experience. none of them now presume themselves more of "anything" as a result, hm?\

im just addressing the salient stuff here that relates to my OP, because this thread seems to have devolved into a discussion very tangential to it.

 

[EctopicFetus]

The reason I put that link was that the AAMC wants to identify people they feel are disadvangtaged. Not everyone who checks that box are reall disadvantaged and ADCOMS know that. We dont know how much weight they really place into these things, but that does not mean we should bash everyone who checks that boxs as lazy and wanting a leg up.

Uhhh really? I could have checked that I was something other than white when I applied.. but you know what I just didnt want to feel that I didnt earn my admission, or that I earned it unfairly. Clearly if you are premed you know how competetive the atmosphere is and people will check whatever they can so that they can get in. I am not labeling them as lazy but clearly they "want a leg up" or they wouldnt check the box. Right?

I just think we should look at people based on what they accomplished, I worked all thru undergrad 10-20 hours a week, that should be taken into account but the fact that i may or may not feel "disadvantaged" shouldnt.

 

[aliziry]

Uhhh really? I could have checked that I was something other than white when I applied.. but you know what I just didnt want to feel that I didnt earn my admission, or that I earned it unfairly. Clearly if you are premed you know how competetive the atmosphere is and people will check whatever they can so that they can get in. I am not labeling them as lazy but clearly they "want a leg up" or they wouldnt check the box. Right?

I just think we should look at people based on what they accomplished, I worked all thru undergrad 10-20 hours a week, that should be taken into account but the fact that i may or may not feel "disadvantaged" shouldnt.

I know what you are saying. I had to work 30-40hrs since I started school. I was taught that hard work is my only salvation and I believe it. I dont have time to do all of those fabulous ECs that my mates do but I dont want a handout. I am certain that work ethic and drive will speak louder than my ECs and less than stellar GPA(3.4). The box probably just has bad conotations. But checking something other than your race is not the same mate.

 

[EvoDevo]

Then don't go calling people "douche." Often, the perjorative ends up describing the accuser more than the recipient. Case in point. Besides, openly insulting other users is a violation of the TOS and grounds for a suspension of posting privileges. Capiche?

As to your original post: go ahead, though it may not make a whit of difference. FWIW, I had similar numbers to you and an even "worse" life experience and it never qualified for "disadvantaged." Your mileage may vary. In my opinion, "disadvantaged" is code nowadays for "under represented minority."

Finally, as much as you may not want to hear it, YOU HAVEN'T CARED FOR PATIENTS. You're not even in medical school. I am, and if there's one thing that I've learned is that you'd better listen to those ahead of you with real world experiences. Would you presume to tell me or Panda (both former Marines) what life is like in the service of your country? I sure hope not. So why would you try and do it here?

if you want to be straight-up and blunt to people, then the military is perfect for that. i say this because im detecting a hint of an undertone re the military. it seems to me that extrapolating military experience to civilian medicine doesn't fit. there's always going to be inefficiencies and patients who piss you off in civilian medicine, but that comes with the job (and the high pay). and if that pisses you off so much, just do military med, where for the most part everyone you treat on base is probably pretty healthy, doesn't do any serious drugs, etc.

the guys i know from my high school who joined the military, or who i met in rotc were pretty matter of fact about having to do so; either for the scholarship money or the experience. none of them now presume themselves more of "anything" as a result, hm?\

im just addressing the salient stuff here that relates to my OP, because this thread seems to have devolved into a discussion very tangential to it.

What the hell are you talking about? You're not even addressing the points in my reply. I never said anything about being "straight up and blunt." I was merely responding to your thinking that, because you have "shadowed some doctors" that you now know how to be a doctor.

Care to address that, mate?

 

[EctopicFetus]

I know what you are saying. I had to work 30-40hrs since I started school. I was taught that hard work is my only salvation and I believe it. I dont have time to do all of those fabulous ECs that my mates do but I dont want a handout. I am certain that work ethic and drive will speak louder than my ECs and less than stellar GPA(3.4). The box probably just has bad conotations. But checking something other than your race is not the same mate.

Ahh here is where the slippery slope lies mate. I could easily have checked disadvantaged (not sure if it was an option when I applied) I also could have easily checked something other than "white" on my box.

Bottom line is you have to go with your heart, do you want a handout or do you want to earn it. Look I have no problem with African Americans or Latinos checking what they are. I do have a problem with someone who is 1/16th latino or african american or native american who has lived his or her whole life as a white person and checking these boxes. It is simply dishonest.

 

[aliziry]

Ahh here is where the slippery slope lies mate. I could easily have checked disadvantaged (not sure if it was an option when I applied) I also could have easily checked something other than "white" on my box.

Bottom line is you have to go with your heart, do you want a handout or do you want to earn it. Look I have no problem with African Americans or Latinos checking what they are. I do have a problem with someone who is 1/16th latino or african american or native american who has lived his or her whole life as a white person and checking these boxes. It is simply dishonest.

Trust me no one will mistake me for anything other than black. My mother is black and my father is black arab. I dont plan on checking the box but people saying that there are no real disadvantaged people applying irks me. Are you already in med school btw?