Are some medical schools harder than others?

[lmn]

I still don't understand how nobody is equating 'requires more effort' to 'harder'. That's pretty much the definition.
They don't have to be useless, either...you can gain plenty from those sorts of things, even if it's not necessarily a higher board score. And in my example, it wasn't extra activities, it was the style of grading (other than P/F).


I am also not saying that my examples are the only way for things to be harder, just that they are one version which I could come up with quickly which didn't involve 'knowing more material for the boards', which isn't feasible since those are standardized exams.

At the end of the day, it seems like the issue I'm running into here is that all anyone in med school seems to care about are the boards, and those are standardized and thus the same across schools. That's nice and all, but your day-to-day life is still affected by the standards your school sets; even if you choose to mostly ignore them, that's a choice you had to make due to the different policy in place.

Is a school where everyone can live on campus harder than one where everyone lives 30+ mins away and have to drive in every day? What if you go to school in California vs the midwest/east coast, you have to deal with commuting in bad weather, thus taking more time, and you may have to deal with some degree of SAD, does that make those schools harder than ones in nicer climates?

Every school has their benefits/deficits that present different challenges, I don't see how you can possibly consider one definitively "harder" than another based on something like lecture hours. It's not like you can't study or do flashcards/etc during those extra lectures if they are really fluff.

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[mehc012]

Is a school where everyone can live on campus harder than one where everyone lives 30+ mins away and have to drive in every day? What if you go to school in California vs the midwest/east coast, you have to deal with commuting in bad weather, thus taking more time, and you may have to deal with some degree of SAD, does that make those schools harder than ones in nicer climates?

Every school has their benefits/deficits that present different challenges, I don't see how you can possibly consider one definitively "harder" than another based on something like lecture hours. It's not like you can't study or do flashcards/etc during those extra lectures if they are really fluff.

Right, because a 30+min commute would be mandatory for your grade, and there are zero alternative options, and you HAVE to get SAD or hate the rain and snow (I live in CA and I hate the weather here).

I was talking about extra assignments/grading styles (as in, multiple choice vs non, essays and outside assignments, etc)...things required by the school for your grade. Try sitting there doing flashcards while you're writing an essay and tell me how focused you end up.
Actually, I find the idea that you could truly focus during a 'fluff' lecture ludicrous as well...if you have to be even just partially engaged in the lecture (say, if you have to know the content for your grade, even if it doesn't help for boards), you're not getting as much out of the cards.

I don't see why it is so difficult for people to comprehend that there is such a thing as learning material, or doing assignments, which do not contribute directly to boards/are not in the nice, easy MC format, yet are not entirely fluff/easy to blow off.

 

[Wannabeplumber]

So n=1 = schools do easy and hard?

In a related SDN-specific question, Does n=3=normative admissions committee member opinions?

 

[Goro]

There's more than three here.

But if you see a consensus, what would you conclude?

In a related SDN-specific question, Does n=3=normative admissions committee member opinions?

 

[mehc012]

In a related SDN-specific question, Does n=3=normative admissions committee member opinions?

No, which is why you should take everything ANYONE says on here with a grain of salt, including the adcoms (sorry Goro)...but if all adcoms on here agree, it does represent 'the closest you will likely ever come to the typical adcom opinion,' especially since they are from completely different schools and different stages of the process.

 

[mehc012]

Gah, @Goro beat me to it

 

[lmn]

Right, because a 30+min commute would be mandatory for your grade, and there are zero alternative options, and you HAVE to get SAD or hate the rain and snow (I live in CA and I hate the weather here).

I was talking about extra assignments/grading styles (as in, multiple choice vs non, essays and outside assignments, etc)...things required by the school for your grade. Try sitting there doing flashcards while you're writing an essay and tell me how focused you end up.
Actually, I find the idea that you could truly focus during a 'fluff' lecture ludicrous as well...if you have to be even just partially engaged in the lecture (say, if you have to know the content for your grade, even if it doesn't help for boards), you're not getting as much out of the cards.

I don't see why it is so difficult for people to comprehend that there is such a thing as learning material, or doing assignments, which do not contribute directly to boards/are not in the nice, easy MC format, yet are not entirely fluff/easy to blow off.

Are you a med student or are you just making random speculations on what you think med school is like?

How many medical schools do you know of that give mandatory homework? Or where you have to write an essay during class? Or one where you won't find countless people doing online shopping, facebooking, sleeping, doing flashcards for another class, or any number of other things despite being lectured on content you need to know for the test? (Hint this happens all the time at schools that don't even have required lectures, can you imagine how it is at ones that have required attendance?)

If you can find a med school doing all of these things, it definitely isn't the norm and imo would be a crappy school to choose to attend, not a "hard" school.

 

[mimelim]

In a related SDN-specific question, Does n=3=normative admissions committee member opinions?

#1 One should be very careful about believing anything on the internet.
#2 One should be very careful about believing anything based on small sample sizes.
#3 One should be very careful about believing someone's personal opinion.

With that obvious stuff out of the way...

#4 Something you will notice, there are very few topics where admissions committee members disagree on. They are different people with different interests and certainly different perspectives, but on the vast majority of things, including virtually every important admissions related things, they are very homogeneous.
#5 Opinion supported by logic and reasoning tends to be more valuable.

 

[mehc012]

Are you a med student or are you just making random speculations on what you think med school is like?

How many medical schools do you know of that give mandatory homework? Or where you have to write an essay during class? Or one where you won't find countless people doing online shopping, facebooking, sleeping, doing flashcards for another class, or any number of other things despite being lectured on content you need to know for the test? (Hint this happens all the time at schools that don't even have required lectures, can you imagine how it is at ones that have required attendance?)

If you can find a med school doing all of these things, it definitely isn't the norm and imo would be a crappy school to choose to attend, not a "hard" school.

I never once speculated on what med school was like. The initial responses tended towards "nooo, they're all the same because the boards are the same for everyone", so I was trying to point out that there are ways for schools to differ in difficulty that don't involve prepping for the boards. I never once stated that any schools had any of these traits, just that if they did have them, they would be more difficult.

I have heard many complaints of 'profs test us on minutiae of their research!' or 'we have required PBL which contributes nothing to my board studying!' (no comment as to whether those sessions are educational beyond rote regurgitation) etc, etc...just from that it is clear that there are definitely some academic variations among med schools, so to me, the question 'are some schools harder than others' is not simply dismissed because everyone has to learn the same knowledge base for the boards. I was trying to shift things beyond that sticking point -- but again, I never once claimed that I knew anything of what it is to actually be in medical school. I was asking for information and trying to demonstrate the kinds of things I was looking for, not trying to dispense info.

 

[Narmerguy]

I think my classes are hard simply because of the number of classes we're taking at a time and the amount of material we're accountable for in each. Nothing about any particular class is difficult. My classmates continue to impress me with their intelligence and work ethic, but I don't necessarily think the tests are "harder" here than elsewhere. Often I think people equate "really good memory" with being "smart", so in that sense, yes you have to be smart to succeed. But everyone gets through it one way or another, and I don't think that's actually what makes someone smart.

The honest truth is that few of us have been in two different medical schools so it's hard for us to really say how much harder things are. Even arguably easy material can be made challenging simply by throwing a lot of it at you. That's hard. It can also involve asking really tough, complex questions. That's hard too. There's not a clean way of separating where one begins and ends across an entire school, but suffice it to say that all schools require a lot of work, and no one cruises no matter where they go.

My advice: go to a P/F. The flexibility is not trivial, the ability to basically look at a class that is being horribly taught and no you only have to pass is a great feeling. It's hard to have time for side projects, but it's certainly easier when I know that no one will perceive me to have been leaving money on the table if I get a P instead of Honors or something like that. Not only that, the class is just truly relaxed around each other. I've talked to some students that go to schools with grades and I hear mixed things: some say the grades changed the culture, some say it's all cherries and rainbows. The difference is that at most PF schools you don't get those kinds of mixed reviews, everyone's on the same page--it's not a problem. That said, clearly med school selects for a lot of Type A people who are inherently competitive, but my classmates have for the most part been pretty good and I wouldn't even know who the ultracompetitive ones are because people don't really focus on grades, they're all focused on other stuff (research, policy, writing, etc). Because most of us are also interested in different things, there's really no occasion to get competitive about that kind of stuff. It's a nice balance!

Don't turn down a great school because its not P/F, but be smart when you're choosing schools: choose schools that clearly seem like they listen to student feedback and try to create an environment that is supportive and healthy.

 

[pyrrion89]

I agree with everything Narmerguy said, especially the caveat that the average med student won't be able to compare med schools since they only have been to one and have little basis for comparison.

That being said, I think the big take-away point is that it isn't necessarily the rigor or difficulty of the curriculum content that determines the overall difficulty of your school experience. Big factors: P/F grading, quality of instructors, systems of support.

Why is P/F better? Because of the environment it fosters among your peers. Do you want to be around stressed-out students, some of whom will be competitive? Because I imagine you get more of that in graded schools than you do in P/F. It isn't just about how you react to grades, it's how others do, too, and how their mindset affects the community of which you're a part.

Another thing that will make med school easier: Having great teachers. Are they clear about what will be tested? Do they go on tangents? Do they want to be there? Are they talented lecturers? Do they forget you're just a med student and suffocate you with rarefied jargon? I am thankful my school has instructors who are very clear, write fair tests, are transparent about what will be tested, and connect all the concepts together and relate them very well to clinical practice. I can imagine how hard and frustrating it'd be to self-teach or worry about what will be tested, if you had poor instructors and materials.

Also, how available are outside resources? That includes counseling, tutors, office hour availability, supplemental study materials---even things like the gym or if your school is in a fun place to live. Or if the weather is miserable. Your happiness is tied to physical and emotional health. Does the school foster that health, or are you... on your own?