Away/International Rotations

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dr_almondjoy_do said:
I am interested in this Family Practice residency program with the UVA system. For anyone that can answer, do you feel it's necessary to do an away elective in a health system in order to get a residency position? Can I just do my electives locally and spend a day visiting, then plan for an interview?

How do people do it?
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It depends on how competative you are and how competative the program is.
If you don't have stellar grades, or the Step didn't go so well for you and you don't think they will offer you an interview, then doing a rotation there might open some doors for you. IF you have an awesome record, rocked the Step and make an excellent first impression, just go visit and interview and save yourself a few bucks.
From a different perspective, you might go spend a rotation there and find out that you really hate the program and would never want to go there.
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Might be a good idea to rotate there. I don't know for certain about FM, but UVa has traditionally not been the most DO friendly location.
 
Boomer said:
Might be a good idea to rotate there. I don't know for certain about FM, but UVa has traditionally not been the most DO friendly location.
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I had the same impression too, but at least for FM, they take the COMLEX score over the USMLE in my case, so I don't have to take the USMLE, which is a good thing. It makes me feel like they are DO friendly.

I looked up VOMA, the Virginia Osteopathic Medical Society, and it looks like, of the DOs that work in Virginia, they have fully completed their education and then relocated. Only a few have actually had a residency spot in Virginia.

Plus the fact that VCOM, the Virginia College of Osteopathic Medicine, recently openned near Roanoke will increase the presence of DOs in Virginia even more...

But I didn't want this to be a "Do you think they'll like me even though I'm a DO" thread. I just wanted to know what people do (MD, DO) as far as applying to residency programs far away from where they live now, and if an away rotation is in my best interest.
 
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One thing you may want to avoid is the "Dr. John Smith, DO" thingy. Very cheesy.
:laugh:

If the UVA FP program is where your dream program is, you should 100% do a rotation there. If you can't schedule that, atleast do a rotation at a nearby MD FP program and get a LOR from a big wig. As a DO myself, I know how hard it can be to break into traditionally un-DO-friendly places.
 
QuinnNSU said:
One thing you may want to avoid is the "Dr. John Smith, DO" thingy. Very cheesy.
:laugh:
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Thank you for the advice Neo, oh... I mean Quinn, I think I may do a preceptorship there and then apply. I am not getting the unfriendly DO vibe from UVA, but I feel it in the fact that they don't have any DO residents this year, and they haven't for a long, long, time.

P.S. Tell Trinity I said Hi! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
 
I wasn't trying to turn this into DO v. MD, but rather to say that since they aren't traditionally known for taking a lot of DO's, it might be in your best interest to rotate there and show them what your individual abilities are.

The fact that VCOM just opened there probably won't help you much, as VCOM won't graduate a class for another 2 or 3 years.

So, definitely, rotate there.
 
I think I'm going to rotate there. My only concern is that due to VCOM openning, they are actively searching for more DOs to be in the area to teach. Only set back (to me) is where VCOM is located. The only dually accredited program I see is in Roanoke.

Thank you for the advice!
 
Searched for this topic but didn't find anything completely on point, and I think that other people may be thinking about the same question:

I very much want to do my combined med/peds residency at X hospital. The hospital is competitive but our school seems to have done okay with placing people there.

I already intend to do sub-I's in both med and peds at my own school.

How would you rank the importance of doing a sub-I in med or peds at my desired residency, even considering the fact that

(1) it's a pain to arrange, both administratively and financially (I have to hunt and pay for more expensive housing, etc), and
(2) there is always the risk that I may not impress them?

Is it a hard and fast rule that you must rotate through your hoped-for residency placement?

Because frankly I'd like to go abroad as my last hurrah before getting sucked into the residency grind!

(I'm using "X hospital" because there are a few places I consider to be places I'd like to go, and they all have good reputations.)
 
vkrn said:
Searched for this topic but didn't find anything completely on point, and I think that other people may be thinking about the same question:

I very much want to do my combined med/peds residency at X hospital. The hospital is competitive but our school seems to have done okay with placing people there.

I already intend to do sub-I's in both med and peds at my own school.

How would you rank the importance of doing a sub-I in med or peds at my desired residency, even considering the fact that

(1) it's a pain to arrange, both administratively and financially (I have to hunt and pay for more expensive housing, etc), and
(2) there is always the risk that I may not impress them?

Is it a hard and fast rule that you must rotate through your hoped-for residency placement?

Because frankly I'd like to go abroad as my last hurrah before getting sucked into the residency grind!

(I'm using "X hospital" because there are a few places I consider to be places I'd like to go, and they all have good reputations.)
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Go abroad!
There are no hard and fast rules but you take a risk when choosing to do a Sub I where you would like to do residency. You might not make the stellar impression you were hoping to make and it could hurt your chances.
If your application is weak and you are hoping to make up for that by showing them your stuff then perhaps you should consider it but otherwise go live a little it will probably be your last chance for who knows how long.
 
I dont know if I agree with this. I have not been in the situation yet, but time and time again, we hear from residency directors how one of the most important things you can do is a rotation at the institution at which you hope to match. Just putting it out there...
 
I would say depending on the competitiveness of the residency....I think it is paramount to show your face...and really impress the powers that be. I can understand wanting a last hurrah....but this is a lifelong career move...getting the exact residency you want...

I'd rather suck it up for now...and enjoy the rest of my life...I was faced with the same choice...and well....I am hoping it pays off.

Good luck in your decision...
 
I think First Aid for the Match has some stuff about doing away rotations where you want to match. Iserson's too. I have no idea what they say, though. In general, if you do an away, you need to work your butt off and do your best to make a good impression. There is always the possibility of hurting your application by doing a mediocre job for whatever reason (i.e. not adapting quickly to the new settings or just plain bad luck).

Common sense says that it's definitely not necessary. People match all the time to programs they don't rotate through.
 
vkrn, were you planning to narrow this down to one school? Sure, I think one sub-I at your top choice can help you, based on everything I hear, but doing more than that seems to be just punishment for not a lot of gain. My friends who are interns & residents now tell me that sub-Is don't even begin to prepare you for the real thing and create a lot of work for the real interns who have to co-sign everything for you, so it doesn't seem like doing 3 or 4 sub-Is at different schools is the best use of your 4th-year time.
 
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I haven't done it, so this is pure speculation. But...

It would seem to me that doing a sub-I at your desired residency location would be akin to a month long interview. Especially for Med/Ped, where there are a bunch of applicants for a very few spots, I would want to stand out from the pack of applications somehow, and being the sub-I that the attendings all shared a beer with last month seems as though it wouldn't be a bad idea.

Plus, you are going to spend the next several years of your life at this program. I think the risk of your not impressing the attendings is mitigated by the chance that you might discover this program isn't the right fit for you. I've spoken with a number of people who did away rotations at facilities they thought, based on reputation, location, etc., were going to be thier top choice. Often times, they report finding that the actual experience didn't live up to thier expectations, and that location either dropped of or down thier rank list. Information is power, view your away as much as an information gathering session for yourself as an opportunity to influence the residency program directors impression of you.
 
Hi there,
Doing an audition rotation can be a good idea especially if you are a marginal candidate for that program and you really have you heart set on being there. If you are competitive, you can write you own ticket.

Good things about doing an audition rotation: They get to see you and you get to see them up close and personal. You can sometimes rule a program out, by doing an audition rotation and seeing the warts. You get to know some of the attending physicians who will remember you when your ERAS application comes across the desk.

You also get to see how other programs handle things. Going away from your home hospital is always a great idea to get a fresh perspective on things.

Bad things: You get to see their warts and they get to see some of yours. If something unfortunate happens to you, you could tank your application.

In general, the good outweighs the bad. It is always good to spend some quality time in a location that you might end up spending years in.

Good luck!
njbmd
 
Hey all, I'm very interested in getting some experience in the clinical trials area. It would be awesome to use my biostats training and medical knowledge during 4th year for some kind of elective. Anybody here ever done something like clinical research? I would think that it would still be "clinical" enough to count towards the degree. Any good sites, like perhaps NIH programs or whatnot? TIA!
 
Anyone know if their school takes students (DO) for core rotations during the 3rd year, perhaps in unfilled spots at teaching hospitals? Thanks!
 
I know at Penn State they would not accept any outside students for Core's.
 
I had the same question, so I contaced a DO school in the state I was interested in and got the name of their rotation coordinator. I asked this person for contacts in this state and asked which major hospitals took 3rd year students. It is pretty tough to get a 3rd year clerkship in a major teaching hospital. They were helpful in giving me contacts to do outpatient rotations for my 3rd year though and as I understand it, if you do an outpatient rotation in something like "urology" for example, you will more than likely find yourself doing part of your rotation in the hospital anyway. As for major teaching hospitals, nope. And it has nothing to do with the DO vs MD training either. All of their own 3rd year students are staying put, and there is just no more room for extra 3rd years from other schools.
 
bla_3x said:
Anyone know if their school takes students (DO) for core rotations during the 3rd year, perhaps in unfilled spots at teaching hospitals? Thanks!
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St. Vincents in Toledo, Henry Ford system in Detroit, Doctors in Columbus, Illinois Masonic for FP in Chicago, St. Joes for obgyn (perhaps second one. Northwestern students rotate there) in Chicago. Call around to schools and teaching hospital departments.
 
Thanks you guys!
Does anyone have any info on Hospitals in the West?
 
I'm a Carribean Med student finishing up my core rotations here in the states, and I'm trying get some electives near the northeast for next summer. Do any of you guys have IMG's doing their rotations with you? Just curious, any help would be appreciated!
thanks
Mobrol
 
Hey all-

I am a third year at LSU-New Orleans and I would really like to do an elective clerkship in any primary care field (peds would be the best, but I have a requirement that I have to fulfill) in my 4th year. I tried to go through the international student exchange, but they will not be flexible on the dates.

I would like to go anywhere in Great Britian (Anywhere, London, Wales, Scotland) or in Ireland. Does anyone know another avenue to pursue elective international rotations?

Thanks
 
Hey folks, do any of your schools have interesting rotations abroad? Have you done a 4th year rotation abroad and like it? Post your ideas here....Thanks.
 
Am looking into going abroad to study clinical/community-based medicine in an underserved area for a fourth year elective and was wondering if anyone knew of any good programs in India or Africa?
 
Anybody out there know of a website or other resouce that makes finding 4th yr externships easy? or do u just have to endlessly search the web and call random hospital #'s.

anyone?....

thanx
 
Hi,

I am a 3rd year FP resident in Chicago, IL. I want to do a one-month FP or OB rotation in Melbourne Australia in January 2005. Does anyone know of a physician / hospital I can setup such a rotation?

Any help would be appreciated

Keashdoc
 
i am planning to go on a 2 week mission trip to dominican republic for a surgical subspecialty rotation. my school doesnt have anything in place. if you want to do a rotation abroad, you need to have some sort of connection with people who are going.
 
Wilderness & Tropical Medicine Rotation In Belize, Central America. Several members of this forum have rotated with us in the past & loved it. Hands on remote medicine & rescue training in the jungles, caves, and rivers along with classroom work, bunkhouse accommodations, and a lot more. We have 4 female beds and 2 male beds left for January 15-29. Check it out here: http://www.gmrsltd.com/RMCGwilderness3.html :thumbup:

Doc Brown
 
Slickrikk,

I'm in the middle of my 3rd year right now and as far as I know, I'm just scheduling rotations at places that I might like to go to do residency. I don't know of a website with all the places that allow students. Maybe try FREIDA online.

To go along with this, does anyone know what is the usual way of going about doing "showcase" rotations? I'm interested in General Surgery, so should I do a general surgery rotation/sub-i at all the places I'm interested in doing a residency, or can I just doing an elective rotation and still get in to know the surgical people at the places of interest? This confuses me because if I went about the former way, then I would only have a couple months to do electives in which I'll never get to do in a surgery residency.

Let me know what you think, or if anyone has any suggestions.

MSIII
 
general rule of thumb is that away rotations are needed for competitive specialties, anywhere from 1-3 months, depending on your schedule and interests. for g-surg, it certainly wouldn't be necessary, but if you're interested in a program, then go for it. My advice is a month at your own program, and one away, 2 at most. 3 months is a bit of overkill.

definitely do 1-2 aways if you go for ortho/ent/urology/derm/rad-onc.
 
Does anyone know if schools will help finance an away rotation. I'd like to do one but can't afford it.
 
rarely. occasionally you'll get free housing (generally at sucky programs), but it's usually up to you.
 
doc05 said:
rarely. occasionally you'll get free housing (generally at sucky programs), but it's usually up to you.
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No, I mean is it worth asking my school for assistance with the cost of taking an away rotation. My school seems to have more money than God. Do you think they'll reach into their deep pockets for something like this? Ever heard of this before?
 
My understanding is that loans are available to cover extra expenses that come along with 4th year rotations/interviews.
 
Even without a preexisting connection to persons abroad you can get international rotationsif you look for them. Every medical school has dealt with student away rotations in the past, even if they dont have "official" electives in their catalog.

So, search for them, contact the organizations, and give the info to your school. Its all been done before.

There are religious 'mission' type programs, language schools with clinical experience abound. Also maybe ask faculty who they know on faculty who goes abroad, then get advice from them. They will be able to help plenty.
 
Some students at my school have done 4th year derm electives in Australia. Basically they only had to work in clinic 1-2 days per week and got to spend the rest of the month sightseeing.
 
A classmate of mine went to Africa between first and second year and worked with one other physician doing surgery "in the bush." (So by that I think he was referring to rural Africa, since he talked about abdominal surgeries...) Anyway, he found the guy somehow on the internet, he was a regular general surgeon who was planning to go and agreed to be his preceptor for the month. My friend went there, lived in the 'bush' and worked hard. Except that they had to wash their gloves each evening for use the next day, it was an awesome experience. He hit 3rd year with a bang and I think aced surgery.
 
Phoenix- go talk to your financial aide advisor. There are most definately loans, but there may also be some additional scholarships that are unique to your school.
 
Your ability to do away rotations and exactly how many will vary depending on the school you go to. I had the opportunity for my 4th year to go anywhere in the country, it just depended on whether the sites I was interested in took visiting students and any rules they had regarding it and whether or not my school was able to process the paperwork in time. While the rumor mill (and I cannot stress enough the words rumor mill even though my pessimistic/realistic ideas lead me to believe it) informs me that other classes after mine will not have similar opportunities, I am exceptionally greatful for the chance to see so many places. It has been invaluable in that it has allowed me to see a lot of places I was potentially interested in going to residency much more in depth than I would see on an interview day. It also allows you to broaden your network potential, especially since I found even in different regions of the country everyone still knows everyone. It also was good in terms of meeting influential people who could write you great recommendation letters that would actually carry weight with the program directors of the residencies to which you are applying. Financially, while I don't believe our school assists directly with funding away rotations, our 4th year financial aid package is substantially more than previous years due to the variety of expenses relating to boards, interviews, etc. Aside from the occasional headache of figuring out where to live when I visit places that don't have housing, it has be extremely worthwhile.
 
Hi Guys,

Thanks for all your help these days!!

I am researching different away rotations available out there-- and I was wondering -- how many do ppl generally apply to (average) I plan to do 1-3 away rotations... but should I apply to 10 or 15 just to get into 1 -3 ? I know it depends on your credentials, etc.. but I mean ON AVERAGE what do people do?

Here is a website I found in my searches that compiles a bunch of schools which offer away rotations:
http://www.aamc.org/students/medstudents/electives/start.htm

Are there any other sites I should look into?

I feel so lost with all this planning! Thanks for all your help! Take care!
snowinter!!
 
you don't need to do any away rotations, but 1-2 is ideal. 3 is excessive.

as for how many to apply to? depends what you want to do. smaller specialties like GU or neurosurg may only take 1 or 2 students per month. For a medicine away, there are probably a dozen possibilities at a single medical school/hospital.

Getting an away is more about sending the application in asap than your "credentials" (though there are exceptions.) It's usually 1st come, 1st served.
 
Does anyone know if their school allows 3rd years to do an international clerkship? I am especially interested in doing a rotation in Australia or New Zealand. Thanks.
 
This is kewl! How much is the program? Can you use it as part of your 3rd and 4th year?

Thanks
 
We have had 3/4 years from 25+ schools and 6 countries do our programs. Expenses depend on which program you do.
 
Thank you Dr Brown, I will keep this web site for the future. I am very intersted in it, but I don't start MS1 until the Fall. This sounds like an excellent program for a future EM doc.
 
snowinter said:
Hi Guys,

Thanks for all your help these days!!

I am researching different away rotations available out there-- and I was wondering -- how many do ppl generally apply to (average) I plan to do 1-3 away rotations... but should I apply to 10 or 15 just to get into 1 -3 ? I know it depends on your credentials, etc.. but I mean ON AVERAGE what do people do?

Here is a website I found in my searches that compiles a bunch of schools which offer away rotations:
http://www.aamc.org/students/medstudents/electives/start.htm

Are there any other sites I should look into?

I feel so lost with all this planning! Thanks for all your help! Take care!
snowinter!!
Click to expand...

THANK YOU for posting this link! :D
 
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