Basic Useful Healthcare Facts...

[fizzbot]

I was thinking we could start a basic useful healthcare facts list for use in interviews... I am throwing in the first fact.

-the number of uninsured americans is 45 million (2004)

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[Shredder]

thats the most played out fact on sdn.

US healthcare spending: some astronomical, hundreds of billions of dollars level

US life expectancy: lower than many of the other wealthy nations in spite of the futile spending

Resolution to this paradox: anyone? also the exact figures for the above two points might help, i dont feel like looking them up

 

[ChuckRock]

thats the most played out fact on sdn.

US healthcare spending: some astronomical, hundreds of billions of dollars level

US life expectancy: lower than many of the other wealthy nations in spite of the futile spending

Resolution to this paradox: anyone? also the exact figures for the above two points might help, i dont feel like looking them up

Healthcare spending is $1.6 Trillion (I think like 12% of GDP?)with about $200 - $300 going to paperwork.

 

[ChuckRock]

Healthcare spending is $1.6 Trillion (I think like 12% of GDP?)with about $200 - $300 going to paperwork.

Whoops, multiply that paperwork figure by a billion!

 

[drmota]

my fact: america's healthcare system blows
-mota

 

[maggie08]

BUMP

also, it'd be great to give the source or link with your fact, please!

 

[Punisher]

BUMP

also, it'd be great to give the source or link with your fact, please!

yeah, i would like to see a link for the $200-300 billion paperwork fact... it is hard to believe that ~20% of money goes to paperwork. there are many other things that cost more than paperwork, like drugs, lab tests, doctor's salaries, etc. maybe $200-300 million i can believe.

 

[DrBowtie]

Think about all of the paper pushers in middle management. They count for that figure too.

 

[jammin06]

think US ranks 37th in health care by teh WHO (measured by life expectancy), but ranked 1st in health care spending

 

[tank you]

think US ranks 37th in health care by teh WHO (measured by life expectancy), but ranked 1st in health care spending

man, wtf is wrong with us??

 

[Shredder]

man, wtf is wrong with us??

culture. its time ppl take some responsibility. throwing money at problems doesnt solve them. you have to get to the root of them.

 

[tank you]

culture. its time ppl take some responsibility. throwing money at problems doesnt solve them. you have to get to the root of them.

which is...??

 

[Shredder]

which is...??

too much fast food, too much laziness, too much finger pointing and victimization. too much running to the docs instead of leading healthy lifestyles. too much reliance on the automobile

i think the last point is pretty important actually. no other countries rely on cars so heavily. americas large amount of land has allowed sprawl everywhere, with few true "cities". if you think about the amount of walking most ppl do in usa, its either for shopping or back and forth to their cars. vs europe and asia where ppl walk a lot. i think that adds up

 

[tank you]

too much fast food, too much laziness, too much finger pointing and victimization. too much running to the docs instead of leading healthy lifestyles. too much reliance on the automobile

i see, good points. also, im pretty sure malpractice suits play a role somehow.

 

[Shredder]

i see, good points. also, im pretty sure malpractice suits play a role somehow.

true, i dont think other countries sue so much. this countrys all about suing though, so i guess its only logical that it applies to medicine as well. but malpractice i think only contributes a paltry amount of the high spending, vs bad culture/lifestyle which i think accounts for the lions share. morbid obesity is so gross and terrible for health, other countries dont have it

 

[tank you]

true, i dont think other countries sue so much. this countrys all about suing though, so i guess its only logical that it applies to medicine as well. but malpractice i think only contributes a paltry amount of the high spending, vs bad culture/lifestyle which i think accounts for the lions share. morbid obesity is so gross and terrible for health, other countries dont have it

it seems far-fetched to say other countries dont have obesity problems. unless you are referring to the malnourished in africa, i would say all countries have issues with weight, maybe not as much as the u.s. i think in europe it is a problem as well. i do agree with you that lifestyle factors probably play a huge role in our health problems, but theres not much we can do about that. we cant really FORCE anyone to exercise or diet or whatever

 

[Shredder]

it seems far-fetched to say other countries dont have obesity problems. unless you are referring to the malnourished in africa, i would say all countries have issues with weight, maybe not as much as the u.s. i think in europe it is a problem as well. i do agree with you that lifestyle factors probably play a huge role in our health problems, but theres not much we can do about that. we cant really FORCE anyone to exercise or diet or whatever

we certainly cant force anyone to live certain ways, but others shouldnt be forced to subsidize those lifestyles via taxation or whatever else. of course everyone will have obesity here and there, but i think the world would agree that nobody has obesity like the usa does. theres nowhere besides here where it is classified as an epidemic, its so shameful. asians and europeans tend to be by and large quite slender

one interesting phenomenon is that counter to the rest of the world, weight problems in the usa are negatively correlated to SES

but yeah youre right about forcing, coercion shouldnt be considered a solution, but what is important is providing the proper incentives/disincentives and avoiding the wrong ones. ive mentioned "tough love" in medicine before; i still stand by it

 

[radioh3ad]

In March 2005 the International Obesity Task Force, a global coalition of obesity scientists and research centres advising the European Union, estimated that Finland, Germany, Greece, Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, and Malta have exceeded the United States figure of 67% for overweight or obese males. The task force estimated in 2003 that about 200m of the 350m adults living in what is now the European Union may be overweight or obese.

 

[Shredder]

In March 2005 the International Obesity Task Force, a global coalition of obesity scientists and research centres advising the European Union, estimated that Finland, Germany, Greece, Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, and Malta have exceeded the United States figure of 67% for overweight or obese males. The task force estimated in 2003 that about 200m of the 350m adults living in what is now the European Union may be overweight or obese.

interesting, but im skeptical--what kind of standards are they using to draw that conclusion? is it comparing apples to apples? i find it hard to believe that anywhere is fatter than the usa. the number of overweight/obese ppl i see on a regular basis outside of my college campus is astounding.

if that task force is correct, then what explains the discrepancy between dollars spent on healthcare and life expectancy? or is life expectancy not the best gauge of a nation's health?

 

[tank you]

we certainly cant force anyone to live certain ways, but others shouldnt be forced to subsidize those lifestyles via taxation or whatever else. of course everyone will have obesity here and there, but i think the world would agree that nobody has obesity like the usa does. theres nowhere besides here where it is classified as an epidemic, its so shameful. asians and europeans tend to be by and large quite slender

one interesting phenomenon is that counter to the rest of the world, weight problems in the usa are negatively correlated to SES

but yeah youre right about forcing, coercion shouldnt be considered a solution, but what is important is providing the proper incentives/disincentives and avoiding the wrong ones. ive mentioned "tough love" in medicine before; i still stand by it

the negative correlation makes sense if you think about it, the poor can only afford the grease-filled burgers from mcdonalds, burger king etc so they are expected to be the most unhealthy

i definately agree about the tough love part though. especially for smokers, i still cant believe some people continue smoking even after being warned about the severe consequences in their future. i would be so happy if they had some kind of restriction for the heavy-smokers, but of course that will never happen...

 

[Shredder]

the negative correlation makes sense if you think about it, the poor can only afford the grease-filled burgers from mcdonalds, burger king etc so they are expected to be the most unhealthy

i definately agree about the tough love part though. especially for smokers, i still cant believe some people continue smoking even after being warned about the severe consequences in their future. i would be so happy if they had some kind of restriction for the heavy-smokers, but of course that will never happen...

i eat at those places all the time, they have great grilled chicken sandwiches, and salads for those who have the willpower to eat them vs gorging on the greasy burgers and fries. its personal choice, and for ppl who make bad choices they should bear the brunt of those choices in the short and long term (tummy ache->growing waist->heart attack). in fact i find eating at fast food joints a lot more costly than shopping at the grocery store. even there ive noticed junk tends to cost more than healthy options, provided you keep it simple (nothing like frozen dinners and bodybuilding supplements)

concerning this thread: im growing flustered at how much public health is being pushed on premeds, maybe even med students. isnt that MPHs' job? lets docs practice medicine in peace without worrying about how to insure millions of ppl and whatnot

smokers should be allowed to smoke as much as they want, as long as they dont end up placing burdens on other members of society. its a libertarian thing

 

[tank you]

does anyone know what the top 5 countries are in terms of life expectancy?? i would guess 5 european.

 

[drmota]

does anyone know what the top 5 countries are in terms of life expectancy?? i would guess 5 european.

i'm pretty sure japan's number one.
-mota

 

[Shredder]

does anyone know what the top 5 countries are in terms of life expectancy?? i would guess 5 european.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

 

[drmota]

the negative correlation makes sense if you think about it, the poor can only afford the grease-filled burgers from mcdonalds, burger king etc so they are expected to be the most unhealthy

i definately agree about the tough love part though. especially for smokers, i still cant believe some people continue smoking even after being warned about the severe consequences in their future. i would be so happy if they had some kind of restriction for the heavy-smokers, but of course that will never happen...

the thing is, its somewhat beyond will power for a lot of people. people raised on eating fried chicken all the time will continue to do so until something clicks for them (usually something health-related that seriously threatens their health). nonetheless, as docs we can press moderation as the key and hope to get the next generation of americans to be a little more health conscious.
-mota

 

[tank you]

i eat at those places all the time, they have great grilled chicken sandwiches, and salads for those who have the willpower to eat them vs gorging on the greasy burgers and fries. its personal choice, and for ppl who make bad choices they should bear the brunt of those choices in the short and long term (tummy ache->growing waist->heart attack). in fact i find eating at fast food joints a lot more costly than shopping at the grocery store. even there ive noticed junk tends to cost more than healthy options, provided you keep it simple (nothing like frozen dinners and bodybuilding supplements)

concerning this thread: im growing flustered at how much public health is being pushed on premeds, maybe even med students. isnt that MPHs' job? lets docs practice medicine in peace without worrying about how to insure millions of ppl and whatnot

smokers should be allowed to smoke as much as they want, as long as they dont end up placing burdens on other members of society. its a libertarian thing

ok, well, not everyone is health-conscious, actually no one is, especially when it comes to fast-food. but its not just the customers fault, the companies shouldnt have so many unhealthy items to begin with.

smokers are causing so much more harm to the society, in terms of secondhand smoke, but also tax dollars are going to keep them alive from their lung cancer and emphysema so they can leave the hosptial and smoke some more

 

[tank you]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

caveat: i think the list is a bit misleading. for example, the islands such as japan are obviously not as vulnerable to diseases spread by physical contact bc they are isolated from other countries. also, #1 and #3 are tiny nations in europe, so im not sure how much they are influenced by the surrounding countries.

 

[Shredder]

ok, well, not everyone is health-conscious, actually no one is, especially when it comes to fast-food. but its not just the customers fault, the companies shouldnt have so many unhealthy items to begin with.

smokers are causing so much more harm to the society, in terms of secondhand smoke, but also tax dollars are going to keep them alive from their lung cancer and emphysema so they can leave the hosptial and smoke some more

burgers dont kill ppl, ppl kill ppl. its not right to blame companies' for the messes ppl create bc of their irresponsibility. fast food restaurants are more and more beginning to provide healthier options. for mcdonalds its not even very profitable for them to do so, but they do it anyway. thats probably the case for all fast fooderies. concerning your statement about how companies shouldnt have so many unhealthy items to begin with: is it right for them to rescind their most decadent burgers, fries, and shakes bc some ppl cannot indulge in them responsibly? that means they would be gone for you and me too, ppl who can consume them in moderation

its one thing to outlaw smoking in public places, which is becoming more and more common. but if ppl want to smoke in private establishments or on their property, nobody can do anything about that. concerning tax money being used to care for them when problems inevitably arise

not everyone is health-conscious, actually no one is

the answer to the discrepancy between healthcare spending and results then

 

[Shredder]

caveat: i think the list is a bit misleading. for example, the islands such as japan are obviously not as vulnerable to diseases spread by physical contact bc they are isolated from other countries. also, #1 and #3 are tiny nations in europe, so im not sure how much they are influenced by the surrounding countries.

by the same token, isolated areas such as japan are much more vulnerable to epidemics that arise within the country itself, or perhaps from animals or air travellers. something like SARS would be devastating. so isolation has two sides

 

[tank you]

burgers dont kill ppl, ppl kill ppl. its not right to blame companies' for the messes ppl create bc of their irresponsibility. fast food restaurants are more and more beginning to provide healthier options. for mcdonalds its not even very profitable for them to do so, but they do it anyway. thats probably the case for all fast fooderies. concerning your statement about how companies shouldnt have so many unhealthy items to begin with: is it right for them to rescind their most decadent burgers, fries, and shakes bc some ppl cannot indulge in them responsibly? that means they would be gone for you and me too, ppl who can consume them in moderation

its one thing to outlaw smoking in public places, which is becoming more and more common. but if ppl want to smoke in private establishments or on their property, nobody can do anything about that. concerning tax money being used to care for them when problems inevitably arise

the answer to the discrepancy between healthcare spending and results then

ok, well since you are obviously blaming the people for their health issues, how do you suggest we improve our current situation? and dont say, just tell them to change their ways, bc thats obviously not working. we need to have some strict regulations and policies being enforced for the severely sick and dangerous people out there. otherwise, they will continue doing the same things...

 

[tank you]

by the same token, isolated areas such as japan are much more vulnerable to epidemics that arise within the country itself, or perhaps from animals or air travellers. something like SARS would be devastating. so isolation has two sides

yea thats true, i guess it balances out in the end. i think japans high life expectancy is in part due to their technological savvy. or maybe combination of genetics, diet (fish & rice for the most part), environment, who knows??

 

[Shredder]

ok, well since you are obviously blaming the people for their health issues, how do you suggest we improve our current situation? and dont say, just tell them to change their ways, bc thats obviously not working. we need to have some strict regulations and policies being enforced for the severely sick and dangerous people out there. otherwise, they will continue doing the same things...

i disagree with strict policies and regulations, i.e. a big govt pointing its finger at ppl and telling them what to do. i think for the vast majority of healthcare cases, it is ppls own fault, and once ppl start addressing that then that will be the first step toward solutions. its like addictions. i guess you could say many ppl have addictions to bad diet and lifestyles.

like i mentioned earlier, i do think we should implement good incentives and disincentives to urge people to live well. its up to the ppl whether they want to take advantage of that or not. an example might be tax breaks for passing yearly health checkups or something. just an example, i dont know if it would work or not.

 

[Shredder]

yea thats true, i guess it balances out in the end. i think japans high life expectancy is in part due to their technological savvy. or maybe combination of genetics, diet (fish & rice for the most part), environment, who knows??

somehow i cant picture the small japanese being as gluttonous as americans. but im gluttonous too sometimes, because man the food here is better than anywhere else on earth. maybe thats the problem with healthcare in a nutshell: american food tastes too good. also i think portions and drinks here are huger than elsewhere. then again, americans are bigger ppl

 

[drmota]

another fact you guys are leaving out is that american's dont (or at least think they don't) have enough time to make their own food, so they end up eating stuff with no idea as to the nutritional makeup of that food. sure, i enjoy thai food, but its greasy as hell. we work a lot, and eating is a habit for us, not something that is savored and respected. there's no one cause. you could even argue that poor family values has something to do with it (having families that sit down and eat dinner together every night). but laziness, boredom and lack of info are the main culprits.
-mota

 

[tank you]

i disagree with strict policies and regulations, i.e. a big govt pointing its finger at ppl and telling them what to do. i think for the vast majority of healthcare cases, it is ppls own fault, and once ppl start addressing that then that will be the first step toward solutions. its like addictions. i guess you could say many ppl have addictions to bad diet and lifestyles.

like i mentioned earlier, i do think we should implement good incentives and disincentives to urge people to live well. its up to the ppl whether they want to take advantage of that or not. an example might be tax breaks for passing yearly health checkups or something. just an example, i dont know if it would work or not.

i like the incentive idea, reward the dedicated individuals that work on their health, kinda like survival of the fittest...although i dont know if that would actually pass, seeing as how most of the congressman are fat (and lazy) to begin with, but thats another point.

as for making people change their lifestyles, maybe there should be some educational videos that depict the consequences of further continuing their current lifestyle or something like that to really give them a slap in the face.

 

[drmota]

there should be a fat tax. will never happen in the states though.
-mota

 

[tank you]

there should be a fat tax. will never happen in the states though.
-mota

like i said earlier, you think those corpulent senators would pass such a law?

 

[dajimmers]

I think it's mostly Japan's health-conscious culture that gets them their life expectancy. Only briefly covered in my anthro class, but they keep detailed records of their every change in "balance" during their day- they know if they were dehydrated, tired, had a headache, gained 1/2 a pound, etc. And then they do something about it, to restore the balance.

maybe thats the problem with healthcare in a nutshell: american food tastes too good

Oh, I'd much prefer eating in Italy every day of my life to the food in America.

Anyways, I somewhat agree w/ Shredder in that people must change their habits. I don't know if that will be that easy with anyone older than 20, though. I think the best we can do is try with them, but to really focus on integrating school education, family education, public advertisements, etc. focusing on healthy living to children and their parents. Take the food pyramid, and make it 100 times bigger. Hmm, but I don't want to end up w/ the vegetarian Big Brother watching from the walls to make sure I don't injest a cow...

 

[Shredder]

another fact you guys are leaving out is that american's dont (or at least think they don't) have enough time to make their own food, so they end up eating stuff with no idea as to the nutritional makeup of that food. sure, i enjoy thai food, but its greasy as hell. we work a lot, and eating is a habit for us, not something that is savored and respected. there's no one cause. you could even argue that poor family values has something to do with it (having families that sit down and eat dinner together every night). but laziness, boredom and lack of info are the main culprits.
-mota

oh the info is a good point, in fact i used to regularly pig out at chipotle until i found out online that each burrito has upwards of 1k calories. true, americans live fast paced lifestyles and dont give much thought to the content of food. so that too factors into the culture. lately i eat at pei wei a lot, but its too tasty to be healthy, and im scared to confirm that lest i ruin my happiness there.

as for making videos--yeah, but who would make them, and why would people watch them. there are already movies like Super Size Me, and govt implementations like the food pyramid, nobody listens though. i think financial incentives should be put into place--when you show ppl money then they listen. giving them badges or certificates doesnt have the same effect.

not necessarily a fat tax, but a thin tax deduction could work and have the same effect

 

[tank you]

somehow i cant picture the small japanese being as gluttonous as americans. but im gluttonous too sometimes, because man the food here is better than anywhere else on earth. maybe thats the problem with healthcare in a nutshell: american food tastes too good. also i think portions and drinks here are huger than elsewhere. then again, americans are bigger ppl

i dont think its the deliciousness of american food that makes people fat. most people eat out at mexican, indian, italian, chinese etc. anyways.. although im not sure taco bell is much healthier, im not even sure i would call taco bell mexican food haha

 

[Shredder]

I think it's mostly Japan's health-conscious culture that gets them their life expectancy. Only briefly covered in my anthro class, but they keep detailed records of their every change in "balance" during their day- they know if they were dehydrated, tired, had a headache, gained 1/2 a pound, etc. And then they do something about it, to restore the balance.

hmm, thats very close to the system that weight watchers uses. keeping track of things and actually writing and seeing them really makes you conscious. positive feedback is great too. in the past its worked wonders for me

Oh, I'd much prefer eating in Italy every day of my life to the food in America.

humm, i had food there and much preferred macaroni grill or carabbas. maybe i didnt visit the right places. but im convinced the the USA "insources" all of the best italian chefs and ingredients!

Take the food pyramid, and make it 100 times bigger. Hmm, but I don't want to end up w/ the vegetarian Big Brother watching from the walls to make sure I don't injest a cow...

ppl will just get annoyed and vote those politicians out of office. which is understandable, it really is like a nagging mother/in law wagging a finger in your face all the time. much better results could be achieved if she offered you candy...i guess thats not the right example here, but you get the idea

 

[tank you]

i just though of something; maybe the govt wants people to be fat to increase the demand for zantrax, cortislim, and all those other diet pills that cost $125/bottle.. or maybe im being paranoid, whatever.

 

[TheMightyAngus]

we need to have some strict regulations and policies being enforced for the severely sick and dangerous people out there. otherwise, they will continue doing the same things...

What America needs is deregulation of the health care industry. Citizens (via public interest groups and advocates) need be more responsible for health care decisions and have more input into health care policies. Currently, insurance companies and the government (medicare and medicaid) dictate what healthcare services patients are eligibile for, so patients try to get the most bang for their buck by running the gamut of expensive procedures whenever they go to the hospital.

The first step should be an increase in copayment schemes as a means to cut down on frivilous healthcare spending; if patients have to pay more out of pocket, they will ask for fewer unnecessary procedures. America is a capitalist society, the health care industry needs to operate like a free market not a government-run subsidy.

People need to take responsibility for their health. Pump more funding into preventive medicine. Only provide care for patients who have a chance to improve their quality of life. Don't waste resources in order to prolong death.

 

[Shredder]

i dont think its the deliciousness of american food that makes people fat. most people eat out at mexican, indian, italian, chinese etc. anyways.. although im not sure taco bell is much healthier, im not even sure i would call taco bell mexican food haha

oh i didnt mean american food--true american food would be limited to things like turkey and stuffing, and maize. food in america, rather. without thinking i just happened to post what appears to be an all american meal ha. except for the maize...

 

[Shredder]

i just though of something; maybe the govt wants people to be fat to increase the demand for zantrax, cortislim, and all those other diet pills that cost $125/bottle.. or maybe im being paranoid, whatever.

conspiracy theories are fun arent they. although interest groups probably do play a part, as in all aspects of politics, shame

angus hammering home the solid points as usual

crap we totally hijacked this thread, the only fact i posted was the list of life expectancies. oh well, discussions are more lively

 

[tank you]

Only provide care for patients who have a chance to improve their quality of life. Don't waste resources in order to prolong death.

and who decides whether a patient receives treatment or not. maybe their socioeconomic status prevents them from having the proper resources to improve their life, then what?

 

[tank you]

crap we totally hijacked this thread, the only fact i posted was the list of life expectancies. oh well, discussions are more lively

haha, your right, we definately hijacked it. at least people around here will become more informed about this stuff and there will (hopefully) be fewer "how would you fix the obesity problem" threads.

 

[TheMightyAngus]

i just though of something; maybe the govt wants people to be fat to increase the demand for zantrax, cortislim, and all those other diet pills that cost $125/bottle.. or maybe im being paranoid, whatever.

Only pharma profits from drug sales. Fat people are a bane on the healthcare system, too many chronic diseases. Diabetes, heart disease, hypertension, strokes. Few obese patients walk into a clinic with only a weight problem.

 

[drmota]

the only problem with increasing co-pays for patients is that they're just gonna not go to the doctor ever until their health problems culminate into a stroke/heart attack. going to the doctor will be like going to the dentist and the problem could get a lot worse.
-mota

 

[Shredder]

Only pharma profits from drug sales. Fat people are a bane on the healthcare system, too many chronic diseases. Diabetes, heart disease, hypertension, strokes. Few obese patients walk into a clinic with only a weight problem.

pharma may lobby politicians like they do to docs. when ppl ask whats the biggest problem in US healthcare, its tempting to say in a word, obesity. and its so literally big too.

as for doctor/dentist and copayments, hmm i hadnt thought of that comparison