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Its a for profit school. I don't have a great deal of faith in the generosity of their financial aid office.
California Northstate gains Accreditation
- Thread starter ThinkReallyFast
- Start date
Its a for profit school. I don't have a great deal of faith in the generosity of their financial aid office.
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I'd agree with this. And I'd encourage people to only go to the school if they are willing to:
1) Borrow the full cost of tuition in private loans (or have rich parents...)
2) Have no other options (ever) and are willing to take a risk to hopefully get a scholarship after matriculation. And if you don't get one, you can just drop out (which tanks your ability to get into any other medical school in the future).
Of course I don't know how you matriculate without paying anything, but I also don't understand how a schools waits until students matriculate to hand out financial aid. Maybe by "matriculate" they just mean you've been accepted and accepted the acceptance? My understanding is matriculate means you actually start class and officially stated working towards your degree...
To my understanding, other new schools (WMU, RVU), did not rush their starting class and were much more open and upfront about scholarships, and much more easy to get hold of.
There are a lot of red flags with this school. Personally, I wouldn't even recommend applying here unless you had no hope of ever getting into another medical school. I don't know much about RVU (though I have a friend who went there and he's doing really great in residency), but I know Western Michigan already had all the infrastructure in place for clerkships (MSUCOM and CHM both did rotations there, now just the DO's rotate there) and they have a bunch of residencies already, and have had them for a long time. So you know that while a new school like WMU will still have some hiccups, you'll get a good education. That isn't the case with Northstate.
If you are considering going here, please be very careful, evaluate all your options, and get as many facts about the program as you can. I hope that the "doom and gloom" talk about the school is wrong and students do wonderfully there, but I am quite concerned.
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Maybe CNUCOM just wants to attract students with rich parents so they dont have to bother with financial aid or loans
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As someone with no dog in this fight whatsoever (applying next year with no desire to move to CA), I feel inclined to point something out:
Type "Rocky Vista" into the search box. Read the threads from 2006, 2007, 2008. They look exactly like this one.
Now, type things like "Rocky Vista Match List 2015" and "Rocky Vista USMLE" into google. Seems like they ended up doing just fine...
I agree that there are legitimate questions about faculty, rotation sites, and the decision to fill a class in 3 months time. However, the hate on this school for its for profit designation is a bit absurd. I'm as liberal as they come, but a business is a business, and all schools, profit or non-profit, are looking for that $$$$
Type "Rocky Vista" into the search box. Read the threads from 2006, 2007, 2008. They look exactly like this one.
Now, type things like "Rocky Vista Match List 2015" and "Rocky Vista USMLE" into google. Seems like they ended up doing just fine...
I agree that there are legitimate questions about faculty, rotation sites, and the decision to fill a class in 3 months time. However, the hate on this school for its for profit designation is a bit absurd. I'm as liberal as they come, but a business is a business, and all schools, profit or non-profit, are looking for that $$$$
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The more I look into the school, the better I feel about it.
I don't think the knock on their faculty is fair. Pretty much all of the faculty has had previous experiences teaching at reputable medical schools in the US. The comment about the anatomy professor being a PhD candidate was a misunderstanding. The Associate Dean for Medical Education (Dr. Akins) has experience with other new medical schools that are now very successful.
The anatomy professor has a PhD and DSc (a degree given as an honor after the PhD) and has taught anatomy at other institutions as well. From my interview day, he seemed extremely motivated and passionate about teaching and anatomy.
The Dean of Research (Dr. Arias), who I interviewed with, has a ton of publications (81 publications, 15 book chapters). http://medicine.cnsu.edu/research/m...r-pharmacology-center-2/hugo-r-arias-phd-crmp. We spoke a lot about research during my interview, and it was a really great conversation!
I think some of the criticisms of the school have been unfair. The only thing that worries me is financial aid. But then again, I'm just a pre-med so maybe I'm not seeing what you guys are seeing?
I don't think the knock on their faculty is fair. Pretty much all of the faculty has had previous experiences teaching at reputable medical schools in the US. The comment about the anatomy professor being a PhD candidate was a misunderstanding. The Associate Dean for Medical Education (Dr. Akins) has experience with other new medical schools that are now very successful.
The anatomy professor has a PhD and DSc (a degree given as an honor after the PhD) and has taught anatomy at other institutions as well. From my interview day, he seemed extremely motivated and passionate about teaching and anatomy.
The Dean of Research (Dr. Arias), who I interviewed with, has a ton of publications (81 publications, 15 book chapters). http://medicine.cnsu.edu/research/m...r-pharmacology-center-2/hugo-r-arias-phd-crmp. We spoke a lot about research during my interview, and it was a really great conversation!
I think some of the criticisms of the school have been unfair. The only thing that worries me is financial aid. But then again, I'm just a pre-med so maybe I'm not seeing what you guys are seeing?
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Also, the Dean used to be UC Davis's Dean.
And as for e-mails, I found that if you e-mail the specific person in the department you want to ask your question, they always answer promptly. For admissions questions, I would suggest getting the associate dean for admission's e-mail on the faculty page. Financial aid has answered my e-mails promptly from their normal financial aid e-mail address.
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For those who interviewed, please post if you hear anything back
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Nope, field experiment. it's a common experimental technique used in the social sciences that he was describing
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Hopefully they will, but not in this thread, which is focused on accreditation.
For questions/issues specific to the 2014-2015 application cycle (for those who want to start at CNUCOM in Fall 2015), please refer to this thread:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...state-university-college-of-medicine.1148495/
For questions/issues specific to the 2015-2016 application cycle (for those who want to start at CNUCOM in Fall 2016), please refer to this thread:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...state-university-college-of-medicine.1143042/
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accepted. Interview July 10th
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Congrats! Email?
A few of us mentioned it in the School Specific thread, but expect a phone call from the admissions committee.
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phone call
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Hello,
I realize my attempt to keep folks focused on the original purpose of this thread (accreditation) -- rather than application-specific issues -- may seem like tilting at windmills, but I’m going to persist, Don Quixote-style.
I’ve read through all 13 pages of this thread thus far, and the consensus seems to be that while there are a LOT of red flags about CNUCOM, ultimately no one knows for sure and we all have to wait for the results (USMLE scores, residency match lists, etc) before passing final judgment. That being said, some are pessimistically waiting for the other shoe to drop so they can scream, “I told you so! Look before you leap!” while others are optimistically urging us to -- for lack of better words -- trust the system:
**************************************************
With all that in mind, can we get a reasonable discussion about worst-case scenarios?
It sounds like there are five basic scenarios (all terms taken directly from the LCME website):
http://www.lcme.org/survey-connect-glossary.htm
- Scenario #1: CNUCOM remains “stuck” at Step 3 (of five steps) of the LCME accreditation process – “Accredited, Preliminary Status” (the same status as the U of Arizona at Phoenix, Central Michigan, Western Michigan, CUNY, and the U of Texas at Austin)
- Scenario #2: CNUCOM gets fully accredited, and stays that way
- Scenario #3: CNUCOM gets fully accredited, is then placed in an “Accredited, on probation” or “Accredited, on warning” status, but then recovers (like GWU)
- Scenario #4: CNUCOM gets fully accredited, is then placed in an “Accredited, on probation” or “Accredited, on warning” status, does not recover and enters an “Accreditation withdrawn” status, but then appeals and later regains accreditation (like San Juan Bautista, which is once again on LCME’s list of accredited medical schools)
- Scenario #5: CNUCOM gets fully accredited, is then placed in an “Accredited, on probation” or “Accredited, on warning” status, does not recover and enters an “Accreditation withdrawn” status, and then never ever (ever) again regains accreditation
**************************************************
For scenarios #1-3, there should be no real appreciable effect on CNUCOM's students. For worst case scenarios #4 and #5, these are the options available to CNUCOM’s students:
- Option #1a: Current CNUCOM students stay in an unaccredited medical program and hope to somehow match into an ACGME-AOA (merged by 2020) residency.
- Option #1b: Current CNUCOM students stay in an unaccredited medical program and hope to somehow match into a military residency (after scrambling at the last minute to get some sort of HPSP/HCSP/other military scholarship).
- Option #2: Current CNUCOM students attempt to transfer to another accredited medical school (which is what happened to some of San Juan Bautista’s students during the period when the school had its accreditation withdrawn).
**************************************************
My questions:
- First Question: Am I laying out the scenarios correctly?
- Second Question: Has scenario #5 ever happened?
- Third Question: Are those the correct options for worst case scenarios?
Respectfully,
Moose
I realize my attempt to keep folks focused on the original purpose of this thread (accreditation) -- rather than application-specific issues -- may seem like tilting at windmills, but I’m going to persist, Don Quixote-style.
I’ve read through all 13 pages of this thread thus far, and the consensus seems to be that while there are a LOT of red flags about CNUCOM, ultimately no one knows for sure and we all have to wait for the results (USMLE scores, residency match lists, etc) before passing final judgment. That being said, some are pessimistically waiting for the other shoe to drop so they can scream, “I told you so! Look before you leap!” while others are optimistically urging us to -- for lack of better words -- trust the system:
**************************************************
With all that in mind, can we get a reasonable discussion about worst-case scenarios?
It sounds like there are five basic scenarios (all terms taken directly from the LCME website):
http://www.lcme.org/survey-connect-glossary.htm
- Scenario #1: CNUCOM remains “stuck” at Step 3 (of five steps) of the LCME accreditation process – “Accredited, Preliminary Status” (the same status as the U of Arizona at Phoenix, Central Michigan, Western Michigan, CUNY, and the U of Texas at Austin)
- Scenario #2: CNUCOM gets fully accredited, and stays that way
- Scenario #3: CNUCOM gets fully accredited, is then placed in an “Accredited, on probation” or “Accredited, on warning” status, but then recovers (like GWU)
- Scenario #4: CNUCOM gets fully accredited, is then placed in an “Accredited, on probation” or “Accredited, on warning” status, does not recover and enters an “Accreditation withdrawn” status, but then appeals and later regains accreditation (like San Juan Bautista, which is once again on LCME’s list of accredited medical schools)
- Scenario #5: CNUCOM gets fully accredited, is then placed in an “Accredited, on probation” or “Accredited, on warning” status, does not recover and enters an “Accreditation withdrawn” status, and then never ever (ever) again regains accreditation
**************************************************
For scenarios #1-3, there should be no real appreciable effect on CNUCOM's students. For worst case scenarios #4 and #5, these are the options available to CNUCOM’s students:
- Option #1a: Current CNUCOM students stay in an unaccredited medical program and hope to somehow match into an ACGME-AOA (merged by 2020) residency.
- Option #1b: Current CNUCOM students stay in an unaccredited medical program and hope to somehow match into a military residency (after scrambling at the last minute to get some sort of HPSP/HCSP/other military scholarship).
- Option #2: Current CNUCOM students attempt to transfer to another accredited medical school (which is what happened to some of San Juan Bautista’s students during the period when the school had its accreditation withdrawn).
**************************************************
My questions:
- First Question: Am I laying out the scenarios correctly?
- Second Question: Has scenario #5 ever happened?
- Third Question: Are those the correct options for worst case scenarios?
Respectfully,
Moose
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I don't think they would allow an unaccredited school to run. I emailed LCME and they said that if the school loses accreditation, they advise you on which schools you maybe able to transfer to.
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In worst-case scenarios where a school would lose accreditation, the students would simply transfer to other med schools. This has happened with SJB.
Accreditation issues won't affect current students, but are likely to scare off potential students.
Accreditation issues won't affect current students, but are likely to scare off potential students.
I am an applicant who has been doing a lot of research into CNU. I want to show you all my findings so you can make a more informed choice on CNU.
While many of you are saying the for-profit status won't affect the education, look at this: http://www.bizjournals.com/sacramen...lawsuit-alleges-colleges-financial-probs.html
Back in 2012, right when CNU's pharmacy school was about to go through their full accreditation process from WASC and ACPE (basically Pharmacy's equivalent of LCME), there was a falling out between one of the faculty, Bradley Brazill, and the school. Apparently, Brazill complained to the higher-ups that the pharmacy school is putting profits over education. Brazill also claimed there wasn't enough faculty to properly educate all the students. Brazill goes as far as to tell a WASC official that the pharmacy school "didn't have appropriate resources to complete it's mission. She ended up being fired, and she filed a lawsuit to CNU: http://leagle.com/decision/In FDCO 20140107756/BRAZILL v. CALIFORNIA NORTHSTATE COLLEGE OF PHARMACY, LLC
In this lawsuit, he claimed that CNU discriminated against him due to age. Brazill also claimed that the school had a way of "cost-cutting and putting profits ahead of students." Brazill also claimed that the tuition scheme CNUCOP gave (increasing tuition every year without a cap, WHICH MAY HAPPEN THE MEDICAL SCHOOL) is an illegal tuition scheme meant to squeeze as much money out of their students as possible.
Brazill was offered $39,000 by CNU to shut up, but refused.
At this time, the pharmacy school also had accreditation issues. It did not get full accreditation on time due to lack of resources, and their accreditation was delayed a year. I'm not sure how stringent ACPE standards are, but I can't imagine them being higher than LCME standards.
With that being said, I personally would not risk attending this school. I will be applying this cycle and hopefully attending an MD/DO school next fall. I am afraid of the risk from CNU. Also, the fact that they aren't giving any of the "$2,000,000 in scholarships for inaugural class" until AFTER matriculation should raise MAJOR red flags. They may have this money in their bank, but I don't see why they wouldn't just decide to not give it out in order to save money. You already committed 4 years after matriculation, what advantage do they gain by giving you a scholarship? They are a business, after all.
Also, since this school is run as a business, it has all the risks any businesses have. Including the risk of having to shut down due to lack of funding/ not making enough money.
I suggest everyone speak with not only the faculty, but also the INVESTORS (including Alvin Cheung, the CEO http://pharmacy.cnsu.edu/alvin-cheung-pharmd-mhsa) to get an idea of their vision for the school.
Please think about your choice wisely before attending CNU! HOPEFULLY, after these conflicts, CNU places a bigger emphasis on education. But who knows what will happen?
Here is a thread from Pharmacy forum discussing the lawsuit: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/lawsuit-against-california-northstate-cp.915119/
While many of you are saying the for-profit status won't affect the education, look at this: http://www.bizjournals.com/sacramen...lawsuit-alleges-colleges-financial-probs.html
Back in 2012, right when CNU's pharmacy school was about to go through their full accreditation process from WASC and ACPE (basically Pharmacy's equivalent of LCME), there was a falling out between one of the faculty, Bradley Brazill, and the school. Apparently, Brazill complained to the higher-ups that the pharmacy school is putting profits over education. Brazill also claimed there wasn't enough faculty to properly educate all the students. Brazill goes as far as to tell a WASC official that the pharmacy school "didn't have appropriate resources to complete it's mission. She ended up being fired, and she filed a lawsuit to CNU: http://leagle.com/decision/In FDCO 20140107756/BRAZILL v. CALIFORNIA NORTHSTATE COLLEGE OF PHARMACY, LLC
In this lawsuit, he claimed that CNU discriminated against him due to age. Brazill also claimed that the school had a way of "cost-cutting and putting profits ahead of students." Brazill also claimed that the tuition scheme CNUCOP gave (increasing tuition every year without a cap, WHICH MAY HAPPEN THE MEDICAL SCHOOL) is an illegal tuition scheme meant to squeeze as much money out of their students as possible.
Brazill was offered $39,000 by CNU to shut up, but refused.
At this time, the pharmacy school also had accreditation issues. It did not get full accreditation on time due to lack of resources, and their accreditation was delayed a year. I'm not sure how stringent ACPE standards are, but I can't imagine them being higher than LCME standards.
With that being said, I personally would not risk attending this school. I will be applying this cycle and hopefully attending an MD/DO school next fall. I am afraid of the risk from CNU. Also, the fact that they aren't giving any of the "$2,000,000 in scholarships for inaugural class" until AFTER matriculation should raise MAJOR red flags. They may have this money in their bank, but I don't see why they wouldn't just decide to not give it out in order to save money. You already committed 4 years after matriculation, what advantage do they gain by giving you a scholarship? They are a business, after all.
Also, since this school is run as a business, it has all the risks any businesses have. Including the risk of having to shut down due to lack of funding/ not making enough money.
I suggest everyone speak with not only the faculty, but also the INVESTORS (including Alvin Cheung, the CEO http://pharmacy.cnsu.edu/alvin-cheung-pharmd-mhsa) to get an idea of their vision for the school.
Please think about your choice wisely before attending CNU! HOPEFULLY, after these conflicts, CNU places a bigger emphasis on education. But who knows what will happen?
Here is a thread from Pharmacy forum discussing the lawsuit: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/lawsuit-against-california-northstate-cp.915119/
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Jesus....
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thats kind of terrifying
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For those who interviewed and haven't heard back yet, I called the admissions office. We are on a waitlist. They already went through all the interviewees
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well you can give them one thing for sure: they move fast
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so does that means they we can expect to hear a yes, no, or waitlist answer within two weeks of interview?
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Yup that's what they stated during the interview day - to expect to hear back by latest 10 business days from the interview day.
I think they sent out the first wave of acceptances past week, they'll probably wait and see who accepts (by Wednesday I guess) and then send the rest of their decisions before this upcoming Tuesday and Friday, for July 7th and July 10th interviewees, respectively.
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10 business days is really fast...
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Yeah lol but it has to be, classes start in September
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Can we please post this application-specific information in the thread that's most relevant -- the 2014-2015 application cycle thread?:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...state-university-college-of-medicine.1148495/
The subject line for this thread is "California Northstate gains accreditation"; thus, discussion in this thread should ideally be limited to topics relevant to accreditation. I realize I'm being annoying, but it will help if we can compartmentalize information (via separate threads) in a way that hopefully helps all of us.
Unless, of course, a moderator comes along and tells me to quit my belly-aching.
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you're really adamant about this!!
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Has anyone spoken with any of the investors via email or anything? Does anyone have any information on who the other investors are, other than Alvin Cheung?
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School's for profit and privately held so they don't have to release who is backing the project. I doubt they would disclose it at least not now. I wouldn't expect a lot of transparency (especially financial) from these folks.
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Is this true? Are we going to get something in the mail regarding the wait list?
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I'd call them on monday and ask
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I am going to sit back and watch and wait on this one. As much as I would love to go to med school in Cali, I am skeptical of the fact that this school has been thrown together so fast, as evidenced by there 20 day application cycle. While I'm sure it won't completely fold (because the for-profit mindset will not let it) the first few classes of students will most definitely have a hard time securing competitive residencies. Only time will tell!
I was totally unaware that there is a tuition cap. I've never heard of such! I would venture to say there is no such thing and schools can continue to increase tuition to the moon if they like.
It is because anonimoose started the California Northstate Application Cycle thread and wants everyone to visit it so it gets bumped.
I was totally unaware that there is a tuition cap. I've never heard of such! I would venture to say there is no such thing and schools can continue to increase tuition to the moon if they like.
It is because anonimoose started the California Northstate Application Cycle thread and wants everyone to visit it so it gets bumped.
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I don't really care whether a thread gets "bumped". Is there any personal gain in that?
What I do care about is preserving, reinforcing, and validating the goal of the forums here at Student Doctor Network (SDN) -- which is sharing and consolidating information that benefits all of us, in conversations that are easy to find, topical, and relevant. Keeping discussions on point and in the right threads will facilitate this goal.
So, once more with feeling, for those of us applying for Fall 2015 admission at CNUCOM, I respectfully direct you to this thread to discuss the specifics of our compressed application cycle:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...state-university-college-of-medicine.1148495/
And for those who are applying for Fall 2016 admission at CNUCOM (hopefully, since the application process will be conducted through AMCAS, it'll be a lot easier and there will be fewer questions, issues, and growing pains), please refer to this thread:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...state-university-college-of-medicine.1143042/
Good luck all, and I hope we can help each other out.
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Did anyone who submitted their application two weeks ago get a response yet? I'm getting so anxious waiting for a response. Thanks!
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I give up.
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Wrong thread, try again.
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call em and ask
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This is becoming as unorganized as the school itself! CNU is cursed!
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My friend at the pharmacy school told me that tuition began at around mid to upper $30,000 for the pharmacy school back when they first opened the school. Now it has hiked up to $50,000+
The medical school is already starting at $55,000
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Exactly. The cost of professional schools, as well as undergrad schools, continues to rise and will do so until something major causes it to halt. Either the government stepping in and setting a cap, or people turning away from education because it is too costly (not likely given how everyone seems to have at least a bachelors these days, even if it is from DeVry). This means that school cost will continue to rise. Although I think there is a cap on federal loans (like around $160,000 total) across your lifetime. You could always supplement with private loans but it could be a limiting factor.
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.
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dang, I hope this doesnt go to carribean type tuition prices
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Hello,
There is a lot of discussion on this page, but not enough facts.
Opinions are in red, facts are in blue.
Opinion: You will be “strung around by northstate”.
Opinion: You won’t get a good education at Northstate.
Fact: CNU’s College of Pharmacy (COP) was sued by a former faculty member.
Source: http://leagle.com/decision/In FDCO 20140107756/BRAZILL v. CALIFORNIA NORTHSTATE COLLEGE OF PHARMACY, LLC
Fact: The case was ultimately dismissed in 2015 May. “STIPULATION and ORDER FOR DISMISSAL signed by Senior Judge William B. Shubb on 5/11/2015 ORDERING that this action is DISMISSED with prejudice pursuant to Rule 41 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and Local Rule 160, with each side to bear his/its own costs and attorneys fees. CASE CLOSED.”
Source: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCOURTS-caed-2_12-cv-01218
Fact: Medical schools are sued quite often.
Sources:
http://www.gwhatchet.com/2012/02/02/ex-student-sues-medical-school-after-dismissal-from-program/
http://www.timesnews.net/article/9070686/former-med-student-sues-etsu-claims-discrimination
http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20121127/NEWS03/121129896/fighting-to-get-out-of-med-school
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_6b3fa880-5d55-55ce-a016-d9e74b594a15.html
Opinion: While any legal matter should be of concern, the initiation of a lawsuit (in it of itself) does not necessarily constitute wrong-doing on the part of the accused.
Opinion: “I'm not sure how stringent ACPE standards are, but I can't imagine them being higher than LCME standards.”
Opinion: While it may be a short-term monetary loss to give out loans and scholarships, it is in the long-term fiduciary interests of the private corporate interests backing California Northstate University College of Medicine (CNUCOM) to produce lots of graduates who will go on to good residencies and subsequently 1) make money (and donate some money back to CNUCOM) in addition to 2) “spreading the word” about CNUCOM and thereby ensure its continued existence. You spend money to make money.
(As yet unsubstantiated) Fact: No medical school that was accredited by the Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME) has ever permanently lost its accreditation. San Juan Bautista (SJB) lost its accreditation back in 2011, but after appeal, is now an accredited medical school.
Source: http://www.lcme.org/directory.htm
If you’ll recall, I asked people to chime in on worst-case scenarios. No one answered my second question:
Fact: When San Juan Bautista (SJB) lost its accreditation, students transferred to other accredited medical schools.
Source: http://www.usnews.com/education/bes...t-medical-school-probation-means-for-students
Opinion: In a truly worst case scenario where CNUCOM loses accreditation, either temporarily (Scenario #4, has happened before) or forever (Scenario #5, has never happened before) students will most likely be able to transfer to an accredited medical school.
Opinion: There aren’t enough residency positions for medical school graduates. Unspoken implication: graduates from piss poor medical schools like CNUCOM are committing career suicide and are the equivalent of desperate would-be lawyers who graduate from tier 4, unaccredited law schools (who subsequently fail to get a job).
Fact: “There are thousands of "leftover" residency positions that go to IMG's even now”
Sources:
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/ADT2015_final.pdf
http://www.ecfmg.org/resources/NRMP...atch-International-Medical-Graduates-2014.pdf
Fact: Tuition for CNUCOP is not above $50K, but is $47,596.00
Source: http://pharmacy.cnsu.edu/prospective-students/tuition-fees
Facts: Tuition for Keck Graduate Institute’s School of Pharmacy (at USC) is $43,500.00, tuition for Loma Linda’s School of Pharmacy is $44,850.00, and tuition for the PharmD program at Western University of Health Sciences is $47,455.00.
Sources:
http://pharmacy.kgi.edu/admissions/cost-and-financial-aid.xml
http://www.llu.edu/pharmacy/spaboutprogram.page
http://prospective.westernu.edu/pharmacy-pharmd/financing-13/
Opinion: While CNUCOP’s tuition is higher than other private schools in California, it is not above $50K (a blatant exaggeration) and is not exorbitantly/disproportionately higher than other comparable schools. Moreover, CNUCOM’s tuition is well within the “norms” of tuition costs charged by other private medical schools. Thus, the implication that CNU is a money-grubbing corporation (while other institutes of higher education are not) seems a bit misguided.
In closing, there is a lot of speculation in this discussion, and not enough facts. That being said, two final opinions:
Opinion: None of us know for sure what the final outcome will be – we have to wait for the first CNUCOM students to get their USMLE scores back, to secure their first residencies, etc, etc.
Opinion: In my estimation, this is the best case scenario: a would-be physician who would not otherwise get an MD from a school in northern California attends CNUCOM, gets a decent education, ultimately graduates with an MD, then goes on to residency and has a successful medical career. And the worst-case scenario: a would-be physician starts at CNUCOM, gets a horrible education, the school loses accreditation (because of its “greedy corporate interests that put profits over people”), said would-be physician transfers to another accredited school and…ultimately graduates with an MD, then goes on to residency and has a successful medical career. (Of course, in either case, we have to assume good board scores/clinical evaluations, loads of student debt, etc.) But…that’s the worst case scenario? If so, then come on. The end result is still this:
“You are, in fact, a perfectly healthy 26-year-old doctor….”
There is a lot of discussion on this page, but not enough facts.
Opinions are in red, facts are in blue.
Opinion: You will be “strung around by northstate”.
Opinion: You won’t get a good education at Northstate.
Fact: CNU’s College of Pharmacy (COP) was sued by a former faculty member.
Source: http://leagle.com/decision/In FDCO 20140107756/BRAZILL v. CALIFORNIA NORTHSTATE COLLEGE OF PHARMACY, LLC
Fact: The case was ultimately dismissed in 2015 May. “STIPULATION and ORDER FOR DISMISSAL signed by Senior Judge William B. Shubb on 5/11/2015 ORDERING that this action is DISMISSED with prejudice pursuant to Rule 41 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and Local Rule 160, with each side to bear his/its own costs and attorneys fees. CASE CLOSED.”
Source: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCOURTS-caed-2_12-cv-01218
Fact: Medical schools are sued quite often.
Sources:
http://www.gwhatchet.com/2012/02/02/ex-student-sues-medical-school-after-dismissal-from-program/
http://www.timesnews.net/article/9070686/former-med-student-sues-etsu-claims-discrimination
http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20121127/NEWS03/121129896/fighting-to-get-out-of-med-school
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_6b3fa880-5d55-55ce-a016-d9e74b594a15.html
Opinion: While any legal matter should be of concern, the initiation of a lawsuit (in it of itself) does not necessarily constitute wrong-doing on the part of the accused.
Opinion: “I'm not sure how stringent ACPE standards are, but I can't imagine them being higher than LCME standards.”
Opinion: While it may be a short-term monetary loss to give out loans and scholarships, it is in the long-term fiduciary interests of the private corporate interests backing California Northstate University College of Medicine (CNUCOM) to produce lots of graduates who will go on to good residencies and subsequently 1) make money (and donate some money back to CNUCOM) in addition to 2) “spreading the word” about CNUCOM and thereby ensure its continued existence. You spend money to make money.
(As yet unsubstantiated) Fact: No medical school that was accredited by the Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME) has ever permanently lost its accreditation. San Juan Bautista (SJB) lost its accreditation back in 2011, but after appeal, is now an accredited medical school.
Source: http://www.lcme.org/directory.htm
If you’ll recall, I asked people to chime in on worst-case scenarios. No one answered my second question:
Fact: When San Juan Bautista (SJB) lost its accreditation, students transferred to other accredited medical schools.
Source: http://www.usnews.com/education/bes...t-medical-school-probation-means-for-students
Opinion: In a truly worst case scenario where CNUCOM loses accreditation, either temporarily (Scenario #4, has happened before) or forever (Scenario #5, has never happened before) students will most likely be able to transfer to an accredited medical school.
Opinion: There aren’t enough residency positions for medical school graduates. Unspoken implication: graduates from piss poor medical schools like CNUCOM are committing career suicide and are the equivalent of desperate would-be lawyers who graduate from tier 4, unaccredited law schools (who subsequently fail to get a job).
Fact: “There are thousands of "leftover" residency positions that go to IMG's even now”
Sources:
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/ADT2015_final.pdf
http://www.ecfmg.org/resources/NRMP...atch-International-Medical-Graduates-2014.pdf
Fact: Tuition for CNUCOP is not above $50K, but is $47,596.00
Source: http://pharmacy.cnsu.edu/prospective-students/tuition-fees
Facts: Tuition for Keck Graduate Institute’s School of Pharmacy (at USC) is $43,500.00, tuition for Loma Linda’s School of Pharmacy is $44,850.00, and tuition for the PharmD program at Western University of Health Sciences is $47,455.00.
Sources:
http://pharmacy.kgi.edu/admissions/cost-and-financial-aid.xml
http://www.llu.edu/pharmacy/spaboutprogram.page
http://prospective.westernu.edu/pharmacy-pharmd/financing-13/
Opinion: While CNUCOP’s tuition is higher than other private schools in California, it is not above $50K (a blatant exaggeration) and is not exorbitantly/disproportionately higher than other comparable schools. Moreover, CNUCOM’s tuition is well within the “norms” of tuition costs charged by other private medical schools. Thus, the implication that CNU is a money-grubbing corporation (while other institutes of higher education are not) seems a bit misguided.
In closing, there is a lot of speculation in this discussion, and not enough facts. That being said, two final opinions:
Opinion: None of us know for sure what the final outcome will be – we have to wait for the first CNUCOM students to get their USMLE scores back, to secure their first residencies, etc, etc.
Opinion: In my estimation, this is the best case scenario: a would-be physician who would not otherwise get an MD from a school in northern California attends CNUCOM, gets a decent education, ultimately graduates with an MD, then goes on to residency and has a successful medical career. And the worst-case scenario: a would-be physician starts at CNUCOM, gets a horrible education, the school loses accreditation (because of its “greedy corporate interests that put profits over people”), said would-be physician transfers to another accredited school and…ultimately graduates with an MD, then goes on to residency and has a successful medical career. (Of course, in either case, we have to assume good board scores/clinical evaluations, loads of student debt, etc.) But…that’s the worst case scenario? If so, then come on. The end result is still this:
“You are, in fact, a perfectly healthy 26-year-old doctor….”
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No that's not the worst case scenario, that's the best possible outcome of the worst case scenario.
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Then by all means, let's continue to speculate. Remember, in our hypothetical example, we have to assume that the prospective CNUCOM student in question is of the caliber of leela13 and would have done just fine at any other medical school (good board scores/clinical evaluations, same loads of student debt, etc.)
Best-case scenario: a would-be physician who would not otherwise get an MD from a school in northern California attends CNUCOM, gets a decent education, ultimately graduates with an MD, then goes on to residency and has a successful medical career.
Best possible outcome, worst-case scenario: a would-be physician starts at CNUCOM, gets a horrible education, the school loses accreditation (because of its “greedy corporate interests that put profits over people”), said would-be physician transfers to another accredited school and…ultimately graduates with an MD, then goes on to residency and has a successful medical career.
Worst possible outcome, worst-case scenario: a would-be physician starts at CNUCOM, gets a horrible education, the school loses accreditation (because of its “greedy corporate interests that put profits over people”), said would-be physician is unable to transfer to another accredited school and…what?
Again, I ask of you -- has a medical school once accredited by the LCME ever permanently lost its accreditation?
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wow you seem really adamant about defending this school. Also, I wouldnt want to be onboard the ship in the unlikely case that LCME sinks the CNUCOM boat.
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