California Northstate gains Accreditation

[anonimoose]

wow you seem really adamant about defending this school.

Not necessarily. It's no secret that I've applied and that I hope CNUCOM (and its graduates) succeed.

However, my persistent posting at SDN should be attributed more to the fact that I'm a fan of precision and propriety (people posting in the right threads and making life easier for everyone) and a stickler for facts and figures (rather than rampant rumor and speculation). I've offered some opinions of my own, but have always qualified my statements and ultimately concluded that "none of us know for sure". Others have been far more forceful with far less.

Also, I wouldnt want to be onboard the ship in the unlikely case that LCME sinks the CNUCOM boat.

I don't think anyone would want to be on that boat. What happened to SJB is pretty bad.

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[LLCoolK]

Not necessarily. It's no secret that I've applied and that I hope CNUCOM (and its graduates) succeed.

However, my persistent posting at SDN should be attributed more to the fact that I'm a fan of precision and propriety (people posting in the right threads and making life easier for everyone) and a stickler for facts and figures (rather than rampant rumor and speculation). I've offered some opinions of my own, but have always qualified my statements and ultimately concluded that "none of us know for sure". Others have been far more forceful with far less.



I don't think anyone would want to be on that boat. What happened to SJB is pretty bad.

do you work for CNU? I remember during the interview day they told us they went on SDN quite often.

also, in regards to the part about transferring to another medical school, you'd need to find a school to accept you first. How would admissions committees view students coming from CNU? just ask goro and gyngyn.

And also, if you end up being able to transfer to a DO school, you'll need to start medical school all over again from OMS-1 to learn OMT. doesn't seem like it's worth the risk. so why not just attend a DO school to begin with...

 

[anonimoose]

do you work for CNU? I remember during the interview day they told us they went on SDN quite often.

I do not.

also, in regards to the part about transferring to another medical school, you'd need to find a school to accept you first.

Um, yes, that seems rather self-evident, no? Please note that I cited the article that described how this happened to students at SJB.

How would admissions committees view students coming from CNU? just ask goro and gyngyn.

goro and gyngyn sat on admissions committees that reviewed the applications of medical students who sought to transfer from an unaccredited medical school? goro and gyngyn -- can you confirm that you did this?

And also, if you end up being able to transfer to a DO school, you'll need to start medical school all over again from OMS-1 to learn OMT.

Is this speculation or fact? Can you cite an example of an MD medical student who transferred to a DO medical program and had to start over?

doesn't seem like it's worth the risk. so why not just attend a DO school to begin with...

There a host of reasons why someone would choose an MD program at CNUCOM over an established DO program at, let's say, Touro California. leela13 is wrestling with that decision right now.

Again, there is way too much speculation, rumor, and mud-slinging, and not enough facts, sources, and citations.

Oh, and are you not going to address this?

My friend at the pharmacy school told me that tuition began at around mid to upper $30,000 for the pharmacy school back when they first opened the school. Now it has hiked up to $50,000+

Fact: Tuition for CNUCOP is not above $50K, but is $47,596.00
Source: http://pharmacy.cnsu.edu/prospective-students/tuition-fees

Facts: Tuition for Keck Graduate Institute’s School of Pharmacy (at USC) is $43,500.00, tuition for Loma Linda’s School of Pharmacy is $44,850.00, and tuition for the PharmD program at Western University of Health Sciences is $47,455.00.
Sources:
http://pharmacy.kgi.edu/admissions/cost-and-financial-aid.xml
http://www.llu.edu/pharmacy/spaboutprogram.page
http://prospective.westernu.edu/pharmacy-pharmd/financing-13/

Opinion: While CNUCOP’s tuition is higher than other private schools in California, it is not above $50K (a blatant exaggeration) and is not exorbitantly/disproportionately higher than other comparable schools. Moreover, CNUCOM’s tuition is well within the “norms” of tuition costs charged by other private medical schools. Thus, the implication that CNU is a money-grubbing corporation (while other institutes of higher education are not) seems a bit misguided.

 

[LLCoolK]

Fact: Medical schools are sued quite often.
Sources:
http://www.gwhatchet.com/2012/02/02/ex-student-sues-medical-school-after-dismissal-from-program/
http://www.timesnews.net/article/9070686/former-med-student-sues-etsu-claims-discrimination
http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20121127/NEWS03/121129896/fighting-to-get-out-of-med-school
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_6b3fa880-5d55-55ce-a016-d9e74b594a15.html

Opinion: While any legal matter should be of concern, the initiation of a lawsuit (in it of itself) does not necessarily constitute wrong-doing on the part of the accused.

None of those schools were sued on the accounts that CNU were. All of these suits have to do with discrimination, not about cutting costs and putting money over education. That is not a problem that non-profit schools will have.

And also, while I agree with you that the initiation of a lawsuit doesn't constitute wrong-doing, shouldn't it be worrisome that the very concerns posted in the beginning of this thread were addressed in the form of a lawsuit with the pharmacy school just a few years ago? I don't think this is something we can ignore.

Opinion: In a truly worst case scenario where CNUCOM loses accreditation, either temporarily (Scenario #4, has happened before) or forever (Scenario #5, has never happened before) students will most likely be able to transfer to an accredited medical school.


Opinion: In my estimation, this is the best case scenario: a would-be physician who would not otherwise get an MD from a school in northern California attends CNUCOM, gets a decent education, ultimately graduates with an MD, then goes on to residency and has a successful medical career. And the worst-case scenario: a would-be physician starts at CNUCOM, gets a horrible education, the school loses accreditation (because of its “greedy corporate interests that put profits over people”), said would-be physician transfers to another accredited school and…ultimately graduates with an MD, then goes on to residency and has a successful medical career. (Of course, in either case, we have to assume good board scores/clinical evaluations, loads of student debt, etc.) But…that’s the worst case scenario? If so, then come on. The end result is still this:

I don't believe this is correct actually. The worst case scenario is where CNUCOM loses accreditation, you are unable to transfer to an accredited medical school because no one wants you, and you end up not graduating and being $150k+ in debt with nothing to show for. Kind of reminds me of the Caribbean.

Also, in regards to having no school lose their accreditation in this manner before, we have to remind ourselves that there has also been no other MD schools who's main goal is to make money. There is a first for everything, as demonstrated by CNU.

However, from my own personal opinion on the school, I do believe that graduates from CNU will be fine. There will be some bumps along the way, and you might hate the curriculum and the lack of proper facilities/resources to facilitate your education. There is a chance of the them losing their accreditation as well, but I think for someone with no MD/DO acceptances, this is definitely worth a shot! But I think it is very important to be informed of all the risks and not underestimate what can happen.

 

[gyngyn]

goro and gyngyn sat on admissions committees that reviewed the applications of medical students who sought to transfer from an unaccredited medical school? goro and gyngyn -- can you confirm that you did this?

Yes, when SJB lost accreditation,applicants in the match (already scheduled for interviews) had to cancel them because they were ineligible.
Frantic, desperate emails were sent to any school with or without a transfer policy hoping to salvage their time in medical school.
Some were successful. Many were not.

 

[LLCoolK]

Is this speculation or fact? Can you cite an example of an MD medical student who transferred to a DO medical program and had to start over?

Yes actually. The students who transferred from SJB to WesternU (a DO school) had to completely start over. Here is the link: http://www.westernu.edu/bin/communications/wu-view-winter-2013.pdf

The students who transferred to WesternU had to start over from year 1. They need to learn OMT in order to take COMLEX and go through required OMM rotations in 3rd year.

And also, the tuition thing of COP was based on word of mouth from my friend who attends the pharmacy school. Maybe there are fees that bring it to over $50,000? I initially thought the COM tuition was around $52k, but there were some unspecific fees that brought it up to $55k.

 

[NVdisG]

looool anonimoose rly has a dog in this fight

 

[anonimoose]

...not about cutting costs and putting money over education. That is not a problem that non-profit schools will have.

I think it's been well argued that non-profit organizations like universities are not immune to "cost cutting" and the prioritization of fiscal concerns over educational concerns, but....

And also, while I agree with you that the initiation of a lawsuit doesn't constitute wrong-doing, shouldn't it be worrisome that the very concerns posted in the beginning of this thread were addressed in the form of a lawsuit with the pharmacy school just a few years ago? I don't think this is something we can ignore.

I heartily agree with you. There are definite red flags at CNUCOM, and I am by no means saying that it's a completely safe bet. But as someone contemplating medical school at the institution, I've been trying to hack my way through the confusing jungle of rumor and speculation (e.g. "There aren't enough residency slots for medical school graduates!") to find the golden nuggets of actual truth.

It's been tough.

I don't believe this is correct actually. The worst case scenario is where CNUCOM loses accreditation, you are unable to transfer to an accredited medical school because no one wants you, and you end up not graduating and being $150k+ in debt with nothing to show for. Kind of reminds me of the Caribbean.

This is a fair point, and I am consequently forced to revise my original worst-case scenario. That being said, I think we can all agree that we need to distinguish the severity of the worst-case scenario (that's pretty horrible) with the likelihood of said worse-case scenario (that's anyone's guess).

Also, in regards to having no school lose their accreditation in this manner before, we have to remind ourselves that there has also been no other MD schools who's main goal is to make money. There is a first for everything, as demonstrated by CNU.

This is a fair point as well.

But I think it is very important to be informed of all the risks and not underestimate what can happen.

Agreed.

Yes, when SJB lost accreditation,applicants in the match (already scheduled for interviews) had to cancel them because they were ineligible.
Frantic, desperate emails were sent to any school with or without a transfer policy hoping to salvage their time in medical school.
Some were successful. Many were not.

I stand corrected. Thank you, Dr. gyngyn, for your personal experience and perspective.

Yes actually. The students who transferred from SJB to WesternU (a DO school) had to completely start over. Here is the link: http://www.westernu.edu/bin/communications/wu-view-winter-2013.pdf

Again, I stand corrected. This is exactly the kind of documented case I hoped to elicit in this discussion -- real facts, rather than pure speculation. Thank you.

And also, the tuition thing of COP was based on word of mouth from my friend who attends the pharmacy school. Maybe there are fees that bring it to over $50,000? I initially thought the COM tuition was around $52k, but there were some unspecific fees that brought it up to $55k.

We all know that there's a difference between sticker price and actual price (but the same could be said of any school's "listed" tuition). I was criticizing your use of an imperfect/imprecise exaggeration ("tuition at CNUCOP started in the 30s, and is now in the 50s!") to buttress your case that CNU was somehow beyond the pale when it came to fiscal motivation. I still posit that it is not.

 

[leela13]

I do not.



Um, yes, that seems rather self-evident, no? Please note that I cited the article that described how this happened to students at SJB.



goro and gyngyn sat on admissions committees that reviewed the applications of medical students who sought to transfer from an unaccredited medical school? goro and gyngyn -- can you confirm that you did this?



Is this speculation or fact? Can you cite an example of an MD medical student who transferred to a DO medical program and had to start over?



There a host of reasons why someone would choose an MD program at CNUCOM over an established DO program at, let's say, Touro California. leela13 is wrestling with that decision right now.

Again, there is way too much speculation, rumor, and mud-slinging, and not enough facts, sources, and citations.

Oh, and are you not going to address this?

Update everyone: still wrestling, but leaning towards CNU (though my opinion may change after I interview on Friday) for lots of reasons. I think if a student works hard and gets good test scores, they'll be fine at CNU. If a school wants to make money, they'll want their students to succeed. Successful graduates lead to more pre-meds applying and enrolling which lead to more profits for the school.

I'm one of those applicants they tell horror stories about, and CNU looks like it'll be my saving grace. My goal is to be an MD in California, and CNU will get me there. There may be bumps along the way, and this situation is far from ideal, but ultimately it's up to the student to succeed and that's exactly what I intend to do.

This is all assuming I get accepted, though. Nothing is certain in a process like this.

I'll post more after my interview.

 

[LLCoolK]

Good luck on your interview!

Update everyone: still wrestling, but leaning towards CNU (though my opinion may change after I interview on Friday) for lots of reasons. I think if a student works hard and gets good test scores, they'll be fine at CNU. If a school wants to make money, they'll want their students to succeed. Successful graduates lead to more pre-meds applying and enrolling which lead to more profits for the school.

I'm one of those applicants they tell horror stories about, and CNU looks like it'll be my saving grace. My goal is to be an MD in California, and CNU will get me there. There may be bumps along the way, and this situation is far from ideal, but ultimately it's up to the student to succeed and that's exactly what I intend to do.

This is all assuming I get accepted, though. Nothing is certain in a process like this.

I'll post more after my interview.

 

[Goro]

It's never happened at my school. None of the COMs has ever lost accreditation either. My understanding of the transfer situation under AACOMas auspices in the worst-case scenario is be that the students would be farmed out to all the other COMs (if, say, BCOM went belly-up). I don't know what AMCAS/LCME policy is. But MD schools have went under in recent history....see Oral Roberts SOM and MCP Hahnemann.

goro and gyngyn sat on admissions committees that reviewed the applications of medical students who sought to transfer from an unaccredited medical school? goro and gyngyn -- can you confirm that you did this?

 

[anonimoose]

It's never happened at my school. None of the COMs has ever lost accreditation either. My understanding of the transfer situation under AACOMas auspices in the worst-case scenario is be that the students would be farmed out to all the other COMs (if, say, BCOM went belly-up). I don't know what AMCAS/LCME policy is. But MD schools have went under in recent history....see Oral Roberts SOM and MCP Hahnemann.

Thank you for these real-life examples, Dr. Goro.

For reference,

Fact: Oral Roberts' "City of Faith Hospital and Medical School" closed in 1988
Source: http://www.nytimes.com/1989/09/14/us/evangelist-may-shut-hospital.html?ref=topics

I do NOT know if it was accredited by the LCME at the time, and I do NOT know what happened to its students.

Fact: Drexel University took over operations for MCP Hahnemann back in the late 1990s
Source: https://www.drexelmed.edu/Home/AbouttheCollege/History.aspx

I do NOT know if it was accredited by the LCME at the time, and I do NOT know what happened to its students (hopefully they got to transfer to Drexel).

Opinion: I find Dr. gyngyn's example chilling, while Dr. Goro's words are reassuring. Again, I really do think that in the absolutely worst case scenario where CNUCOM loses accreditation -- permanently -- that the LCME will be so embarrassed that they will be compelled to act in favor of the hapless students. That being said, in the end, no one knows for sure; we all have to wait at least a few years for things to sort themselves out.

...and if accepted, I'm leaning towards taking that risk with leela13.

 

[unnumzaan]

Yes, when SJB lost accreditation,applicants in the match (already scheduled for interviews) had to cancel them because they were ineligible.
Frantic, desperate emails were sent to any school with or without a transfer policy hoping to salvage their time in medical school.
Some were successful. Many were not.

Jesus. This is the face of hell on earth. I got goosebumps reading this.

 

[Goro]

At a new school, the biggest risks are simply the Faculty not knowing what they're doing. I heard from several sources that this was the case at LUCOM. Those students best able to overcome such deficits will be those who are good art independent study and who are good self-starters. Students who need spoon-feeding are more at risk.

 

[gyngyn]

Jesus. This is the face of hell on earth. I got goosebumps reading this.

It was awful. Their pleas were heartbreaking. The ones I saw were really good students with nice USMLE scores, to boot.

 

[hollaatyogirl]

This is probably a very silly question so forgive me, but what does CNU COM gain by becoming "for-profit".
If the dean&co wanted to make money, couldn't they just go the non-profit route and just pay themselves inflated salaries as many "non-profit" schools do?

 

[Verbatim Disk]

looool anonimoose rly has a dog in this fight

It's not like others aren't either.
I've noticed a lot of people who "dislike this school" or wouldn't touch it with a "10 foot pole" were people who applied and weren't granted interviews, or applied and they weren't accepted (yet).

 

[LLCoolK]

This is probably a very silly question so forgive me, but what does CNU COM gain by becoming "for-profit".
If the dean&co wanted to make money, couldn't they just go the non-profit route and just pay themselves inflated salaries as many "non-profit" schools do?

they needed funding to get money to build the medical school. non-profits get the money from govn't/federal sources or donations. They get their money by people putting in money into their fund in hopes of getting money back + more

non-profits are required to put their profits back into the school to improve it, and there is a limit to how much higher faculty salary can go each year.

for-profits will put their profits into their investor's pockets. The quality of their curriculum will likely stagnate due to the fact that no matter what, they will be able to full their class FULL of students. They gain nothing from giving scholarships, so there will be limited scholarships available (pharmacy school gives scholarships up to $5,000 a year). They gain nothing from putting the money back into the school, so the school will not get any better.

BUT the school is LCME accredited, which says a lot. It's a tough process, and usually LCME accredited schools are very capable of producing physicians. They will likely find the most cost-efficient way to stay accredited, but I don't think the LCME will lower their standards for them.

 

[nwts]

This is probably a very silly question so forgive me, but what does CNU COM gain by becoming "for-profit".
If the dean&co wanted to make money, couldn't they just go the non-profit route and just pay themselves inflated salaries as many "non-profit" schools do?

In addition to what LLCoolK said, it is important to note that in a for-profit business, the profit does not go to employees. The salaries and wages of employees are business costs, not uses of profit. As LLCoolK said, profit goes to investors/shareholders. So you were correct in your analysis that the dean and other employees will not be benefiting from CNU's for-profit status (assuming they were not investors).

 

[hollaatyogirl]

.

 

[Spector1]

At a new school, the biggest risks are simply the Faculty not knowing what they're doing. I heard from several sources that this was the case at LUCOM. Those students best able to overcome such deficits will be those who are good art independent study and who are good self-starters. Students who need spoon-feeding are more at risk.

What do you make of the teaching faculty that we know of at CNUCOM? Dean Silva seems credible enough since he is from davis but the rest are a mix of private practice/hmo practice physicians and phds with teaching backgrounds at osteopathic schools.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Then by all means, let's continue to speculate.

It's not speculation, it's articulation of scenarios. It'd be speculation if one were to say one of the scenarios is bound to happen. Do you see the difference?

In the student's perspective, there are several worst case scenarios all with the same defined end result - tons of debt, inability to practice. I want to emphasize how awful this scenario is, btw, regardless of probability - you're saddled with 200k+ debt, which will be 400k+ when paid off, not discharged in bankruptcy, with no possibility of securing a job as a doctor.

Let me list some possibilities off the top of my head -

1 - As you noted - accreditation lost, inability to transfer. This, I'll point out, is actually the least "worst" of the worst-case scenarios, since you are likely not going to be on hook for 4 years' worth of tuition... although possible.
2 - Accreditation is not lost, but you don't match anyway. This is not a trivial probability, and the most likely of the "worst case scenarios." Even the top top top schools often/usually don't have a 100% match rate.
3 - Accreditation lost, successful transfer (not easy btw), but you don't match anyway
4 - Accreditation not lost, successful match, turns out you were really terribly educated clinically and your residency fires you (unlikely but not implausible)

Additionally, there are several not-worst-but-definitely-terrible scenarios as well -

1 - You only match into a low-tier prelim spot. Before you or anyone else tries to argue about this, this is more or less a dead end for many. Trust me. The only reason that this isn't up there with the worst-casers is because at least after internship you can open a practice in rural Montana or something.
2 - You don't match and scramble into a random program in a field you don't want (can happen anywhere of course, but the odds are certainly higher here)

Not to mention the not-terrible-but-not-good things, like the difficulty/impossibility of ever matching into a really competitive specialty or a competitive program of a "regular" specialty. You can also kiss a career in academics goodbye for sure (though I'm sure most of CNU's applicants aren't interested in it or qualified anyway. Better do your best not to fall in love with anything like brain surgery, eyeballs, or... gasp... dermatology.

Remember, in our hypothetical example, we have to assume that the prospective CNUCOM student in question is of the caliber of leela13 and would have done just fine at any other medical school (good board scores/clinical evaluations, same loads of student debt, etc.)

Let me tell you as a person who's been through the residency application - literally everyone you see on interview day has "good board scores." There are so many of these people, in fact, that most applicants with good board scores won't be interviewed at any given program. Let that sink in for a second. A program might interview 50-100 people total in my field. There are ~20,000 medical students every year. Do the math.

Also, "would have done just fine at any other medical school" is literally pure speculation, which seems to be something you're super against to the point of delineating everything using different colored fonts and all caps and stuff. BTW, please stop doing that it's really annoying. We can tell the difference between fact, opinion, and speculation, without you yelling at us.

I ask of you -- has a medical school once accredited by the LCME ever permanently lost its accreditation?

If a school loses it for even a year, you can be completely fcked. The school can gain it back and be fine with only a hit to reputation. But not you, which is the only thing that matters here.

There a host of reasons why someone would choose an MD program at CNUCOM over an established DO program at, let's say, Touro California. leela13 is wrestling with that decision right now.

And most of those are frankly absurd, and likely rooted in some stupid pride or somesuch nonsense. Seems like it's more important for a lot of you (you in the general sense) to have the right degree than to actually be a doctor

It's not like others aren't either.
I've noticed a lot of people who "dislike this school" or wouldn't touch it with a "10 foot pole" were people who applied and weren't granted interviews, or applied and they weren't accepted (yet).

I think you're conveniently ignoring the rather sizeable population of current med students/residents/attendings that are also preaching heavy caution

What do you make of the teaching faculty that we know of at CNUCOM? Dean Silva seems credible enough since he is from davis but the rest are a mix of private practice/hmo practice physicians and phds with teaching backgrounds at osteopathic schools.

My negative feelings regarding this school aside, a PhD intrinsically should not be an inferior teacher to an MD. Frankly you can learn everything from preclinical in a few months with a book in the library anyway, the degrees of your teachers is probably the least important piece.



I forgot SDN is fun! Makes night float go by quicker

 

[NVdisG]

that guy made a thread a few days ago about how medicine attracts a lot of mediocre people. i think if you're willing to go to a school like cal northstate you fall into that category.

 

[Goro]

The clinical faculty do not seem experienced enough to give a good clinical education.

Too many rookies. I mean, really...a PhD candidate to teach in the Anatomy lab? This is unheard of! (Except of undergrad institutions).

Too many foreign-trained or -born. I'm not saying this to be racist; I'm a minority myself, but it strikes me that a CA medical school couldn't recruit domestic PhDs to teach at a MD school? Compare this faculty to that of FAU, Dell, FIU, Netter, TCMC or Hofstra.

This suggests that either CNU didn't advertise the positions very well, or the administrators raided the Drexel post-bac program.

PhDs are a dime-a-dozen. Normally, there are so many of them out there that any new faculty position can pull in someone with a grant, or a very productive research background. Even my COM can pull this off. I am extremely underwhelmed by the productivity of the CNU faculty. My impression (which could be wrong) was that LCME demands MD schools to set up serious research venues (these can cost up to $30 million to get going); how are these people going to to do that???

Even the Dean is a mystery. Deans come in two flavors: Vision deans, who are the ones that set up the school (like the current dean at MUCOM...he started the PCOM-GA school too!), and administration deans, who gets running smoothly once they're set up. You really need a vision dean at first.

@gyngyn can comment better than I on on their clinical faculty.

What do you make of the teaching faculty that we know of at CNUCOM? Dean Silva seems credible enough since he is from davis but the rest are a mix of private practice/hmo practice physicians and phds with teaching backgrounds at osteopathic schools.

 

[NVdisG]

The clinical faculty do not seem experienced enough to give a good clinical education.

Too many rookies. I mean, really...a PhD candidate to teach in the Anatomy lab? This is unheard of! (Except of undergrad institutions).

Too many foreign-trained or -born. I'm not saying this to be racist; I'm a minority myself, but it strikes me that a CA medical school couldn't recruit domestic PhDs to teach at a MD school? Compare this faculty to that of FAU, Dell, FIU, Netter, TCMC or Hofstra.

This suggests that either CNU didn't advertise the positions very well, or the administrators raided the Drexel post-bac program.

PhDs are a dime-a-dozen. Normally, there are so many of them out there that any new faculty position can pull in someone with a grant, or a very productive research background. Even my COM can pull this off. I am extremely underwhelmed by the productivity of the CNU faculty. My impression (which could be wrong) was that LCME demands MD schools to set up serious research venues (these can cost up to $30 million to get going); how are these people going to to do that???

Even the Dean is a mystery. Deans come in two flavors: Vision deans, who are the ones that set up the school (like the current dean at MUCOM...he started the PCOM-GA school too!), and administration deans, who gets running smoothly once they're set up. You really need a vision dean at first.

@gyngyn can comment better than I on on their clinical faculty.

inb4 anonimoose's "well, thats just like, your opinion, man"

 

[gyngyn]

What do you make of the teaching faculty that we know of at CNUCOM? Dean Silva seems credible enough since he is from davis but the rest are a mix of private practice/hmo practice physicians and phds with teaching backgrounds at osteopathic schools.

I had never heard of the Ob/Gyn Chair so I checked for her in the ABOG registry, she's not board certified.
I checked the Medical Board to see if she was licensed, no luck.
I guess she won't be able to teach in a clinical setting.

 

[hoihaie]

The clinical faculty do not seem experienced enough to give a good clinical education.

Too many rookies. I mean, really...a PhD candidate to teach in the Anatomy lab? This is unheard of! (Except of undergrad institutions).

Too many foreign-trained or -born. I'm not saying this to be racist; I'm a minority myself, but it strikes me that a CA medical school couldn't recruit domestic PhDs to teach at a MD school? Compare this faculty to that of FAU, Dell, FIU, Netter, TCMC or Hofstra.

This suggests that either CNU didn't advertise the positions very well, or the administrators raided the Drexel post-bac program.

PhDs are a dime-a-dozen. Normally, there are so many of them out there that any new faculty position can pull in someone with a grant, or a very productive research background. Even my COM can pull this off. I am extremely underwhelmed by the productivity of the CNU faculty. My impression (which could be wrong) was that LCME demands MD schools to set up serious research venues (these can cost up to $30 million to get going); how are these people going to to do that???

Even the Dean is a mystery. Deans come in two flavors: Vision deans, who are the ones that set up the school (like the current dean at MUCOM...he started the PCOM-GA school too!), and administration deans, who gets running smoothly once they're set up. You really need a vision dean at first.

@gyngyn can comment better than I on on their clinical faculty.

it pales even compared to western michigan's pre-clinical faculty (http://med.wmich.edu/about-us/faculty/Biomedical Sciences)

 

[LLCoolK]

also, with regards to the private loans,

not only will you not be able to declare bankruptcy if you don't end up being licensed after attending this school, but you can't participate in federal loan programs such as PAYE and IBR.

if you end up $300k+ in debt from this school and don't end up getting a high-salary job to pay it off, then it's a financial death sentence.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

I had never heard of the Ob/Gyn Chair so I checked for her in the ABOG registry, she's not board certified.

Premeds - this is a HUGE FCKING DEAL

 

[foreverbuckeye]

This thread reeks of a serious inferiority complex.

For the posters who claim to be on admissions committees, it sure seems like they're devoting a little too much time to name bashing CNUCOM. Don't they have work to do? For the rest of the naysayers: glad to see you're spending your time productively.

I'm glad that a new school opened with the goal of addressing the primary care shortage in California, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to apply. Good luck to all applicants- see you in the other civilized, rational CNU thread(s).

 

[medic86]

This thread reeks of a serious inferiority complex.

For the posters who claim to be on admissions committees, it sure seems like they're devoting a little too much time to name bashing CNUCOM. Don't they have work to do? For the rest of the naysayers: glad to see you're spending your time productively.

I'm glad that a new school opened with the goal of addressing the primary care shortage in California, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to apply. Good luck to all applicants- see you in the other civilized, rational CNU thread(s).

 

[anonimoose]

Dr. RogueUnicorn,

It's not speculation, it's articulation of scenarios. It'd be speculation if one were to say one of the scenarios is bound to happen. Do you see the difference?

There's no need to be condescending, Dr. RogueUnicorn. I do understand the difference between speculation and articulation, and I agree that you primarily articulated (rather than speculated) scenarios in your response. However, when people write:

So you know that while a new school like WMU will still have some hiccups, you'll get a good education. That isn't the case with Northstate.

and

Within 3-4 cycles, going to medical school will be stupider than going to law school. You won't be able to get a job. There won't be enough residency slots to train everyone and failing any board is effectively a death sentence for your medical career.

Those are affirmative, predictive (and I would argue, largely baseless) declarations of events that have yet to be determined. In other words, speculation.

It's been rampant in this particular thread.

In the student's perspective, there are several worst case scenarios all with the same defined end result - tons of debt, inability to practice. I want to emphasize how awful this scenario is, btw, regardless of probability - you're saddled with 200k+ debt, which will be 400k+ when paid off, not discharged in bankruptcy, with no possibility of securing a job as a doctor.

No disagreement there, Dr. RogueUnicorn. This is absolutely horrible.

Let me list some possibilities off the top of my head -

1 - As you noted - accreditation lost, inability to transfer. This, I'll point out, is actually the least "worst" of the worst-case scenarios, since you are likely not going to be on hook for 4 years' worth of tuition... although possible.
2 - Accreditation is not lost, but you don't match anyway. This is not a trivial probability, and the most likely of the "worst case scenarios." Even the top top top schools often/usually don't have a 100% match rate.
3 - Accreditation lost, successful transfer (not easy btw), but you don't match anyway
4 - Accreditation not lost, successful match, turns out you were really terribly educated clinically and your residency fires you (unlikely but not implausible)

Worst-case scenario #1: There are currently six schools with preliminary accreditation by the LCME -- the i) University of Arizona College of Medicine at Phoenix (accredited in 2012), ii) CNUCOM (2015), iii) Central Michigan University College of Medicine (2012), iv) Western Michigan University School of Medicine (2012), v) CUNY School of Medicine (2015), and vi) the University of Texas at Austin Dell Medical School (2015):
http://www.lcme.org/directory.htm

That being said, I do agree that CNUCOM's for-profit status (and the other red flags raised by many in this thread) pose unique threats to its accreditation. However, Dr. RogueUnicorn, would you be able to articulate why your other worst-case scenarios are unique to CNUCOM? After all, the purpose of this thread is to specifically discuss the merits (or lack thereof) of CNUCOM's recent accreditation, not the worst-case scenarios of a medical career, overall.

Worst-case scenario #2: If (as you say) even Harvard, Stanford, and Hopkins don't have a 100% match rate, how is this worst-case scenario unique to CNUCOM? Will graduates of CNUCOM be demonstrably, appreciably worse-off than graduates of the five other preliminarily accredited medical schools, particularly the two other new ones (CUNY and UT Austin)? If so, why? If not, are you also critically commenting in their respective threads?

Worst-case scenario #3: Please refer to my response to worst-case scenarios #1 (is CNUCOM more likely to lose its preliminary accreditation than the other five schools? perhaps?) and #2 (failure to match is the risk of all medical students at all medical schools)

Worst-case scenario #4: Please refer to my response to worst-case scenario #2

Additionally, there are several not-worst-but-definitely-terrible scenarios as well -

1 - You only match into a low-tier prelim spot. Before you or anyone else tries to argue about this, this is more or less a dead end for many. Trust me. The only reason that this isn't up there with the worst-casers is because at least after internship you can open a practice in rural Montana or something.
2 - You don't match and scramble into a random program in a field you don't want (can happen anywhere of course, but the odds are certainly higher here)

Definitely-terrible scenario #1 and #2: Please refer to my response above to worst-case scenario #2 -- I fail to see how a student at CNUCOM is demonstrably more likely than a student at CUNY or UT Austin to match into a low-tier prelim spot or into a random program in an unwanted field

It'd be speculation if one were to say one of the scenarios is bound to happen.

You can also kiss a career in academics goodbye for sure (though I'm sure most of CNU's applicants aren't interested in it or qualified anyway.

Dr. RogueUnicorn, if one were being snarky, one could label the latter statement as speculation and condescendingly question whether the writer understands the difference between articulation and speculation. But I shall endeavor to keep the thread snark-free!

Remember, in our hypothetical example, we have to assume that the prospective CNUCOM student in question is of the caliber of leela13 and would have done just fine at any other medical school (good board scores/clinical evaluations, same loads of student debt, etc.)

Let me tell you as a person who's been through the residency application - literally everyone you see on interview day has "good board scores."

Dr. RogueUnicorn, my point was that in order to have a legitimate thought exercise, we have to make a number of assumptions. If we want to speculate and predict how well (or poorly) a graduate of CNUCOM will fare (in comparing her/his hypothetical fate to what would've happened had she/he attended another medical school), we have to assume that the student in question will perform reasonably well enough at either school.

Also, "would have done just fine at any other medical school" is literally pure speculation, which seems to be something you're super against

Dr. RogueUnicorn, I am not against speculation, per se. Clearly, we have engaged in a vigorous discussion of hypotheticals and what-ifs -- all speculation. I thank you for taking the time to map out all the worst-case and definitely-terribly scenarios that those of us with less experience may not appreciate. Furthermore, the real-world horror stories provided by Dr. gyngyn and Dr. Goro are extremely helpful examples/data points that shape and inform the conversation.

What I disagree with is definitive, blanket, (arguably baseless) speculative statements like "You're going to get a horrible education! You're going to graduate and there'll be no residencies available for you!" For those seeking to genuinely educate themselves about the pros (and the many cons) of CNUCOM, these are distracting speculative statements at best (and inflammatory at worst).

to the point of delineating everything using different colored fonts and all caps and stuff. BTW, please stop doing that it's really annoying. We can tell the difference between fact, opinion, and speculation, without you yelling at us.

Dr. RogueUnicorn, so long as we're being nit-picky, I did not use all-caps (the internet-equivalent of yelling). Unless you're a site administrator who orders me otherwise, I will continue to use this forum's various functionalities to highlight, underscore, and/or otherwise enhance my (attempts at) communication.

Again, I ask of you -- has a medical school once accredited by the LCME ever permanently lost its accreditation?

If a school loses it for even a year, you can be completely fcked. The school can gain it back and be fine with only a hit to reputation. But not you, which is the only thing that matters here.

This is an important nuance and a great point, Dr. RogueUnicorn.

There a host of reasons why someone would choose an MD program at CNUCOM over an established DO program at, let's say, Touro California. leela13 is wrestling with that decision right now.

And most of those are frankly absurd, and likely rooted in some stupid pride or somesuch nonsense. Seems like it's more important for a lot of you (you in the general sense) to have the right degree than to actually be a doctor

I agree with you, Dr. RogueUnicorn.

Respectfully,
Moose

 

[LLCoolK]

I had never heard of the Ob/Gyn Chair so I checked for her in the ABOG registry, she's not board certified.
I checked the Medical Board to see if she was licensed, no luck.
I guess she won't be able to teach in a clinical setting.

From the interview day, it seemed like she is only overlooking the interprofessional education part of the course

 

[LLCoolK]

This thread reeks of a serious inferiority complex.

For the posters who claim to be on admissions committees, it sure seems like they're devoting a little too much time to name bashing CNUCOM. Don't they have work to do? For the rest of the naysayers: glad to see you're spending your time productively.

I'm glad that a new school opened with the goal of addressing the primary care shortage in California, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to apply. Good luck to all applicants- see you in the other civilized, rational CNU thread(s).

medicine is the business of helping people. naturally, posters here are going to want to inform others to help them make a sound decision

 

[Doctor4TheWorld]

Too many rookies. I mean, really...a PhD candidate to teach in the Anatomy lab? This is unheard of! (Except of undergrad institutions).

Excellent points Goro, but just for clarification - the anatomy lab instructor is homeboy Pad (http://medicine.cnsu.edu/faculty/fa...padmanabhan-rengasamy-phd-fibiol-lond-dsc-med) who is not a PhD candidate and he has experience teaching. I know there has been confusion about this before on this thread.

"Too many foreign-trained or -born. I'm not saying this to be racist; I'm a minority myself, but it strikes me that a CA medical school couldn't recruit domestic PhDs"
Also, instead of calling the school out for hiring too many foreign trained or foreign born faculty, perhaps the issue should be whether these people are qualified to teach. Being a minority yourself doesn't excuse you from discriminating against foreign trained MDs or PhDs because they are foreign lol. I know you probably also think that they are under-qualified because of their experiences (or lack thereof) and if that's the case that is what the main issue with the faculty should be. Just my opinion though, and of course you're entitled to your own.

Finally, I think as someone pointed out earlier, some people, like myself, have "dogs in this fight" while others, probably people like goro and gyngyn don't. I think we should leave disclaimers so people know can distinguish between the people being critical that are rationally skeptical, from those who are angry because they didn't get an interview or acceptance. And also to distinguish people like myself who are optimistic (which admittedly may very well be because I plan on attending lol) from those who just have something positive to say (not many of these people on here it seems lol).

 

[Goro]

Unbelievably so.

What concerns me is not that CNU will go belly up, but as long as their grads end up in residencies, even if they're lousy one, they'll have no end of students, and also have no justification for improving things. it's a seller's market, after all, and there' a surplus of MD school caliber pre-meds in CA who want the MD degree and want to stay in CA.

Believe me, I see this at other med schools.

Premeds - this is a HUGE FCKING DEAL

 

[Goro]

This is exactly my point. the comparison to Western MI is quite, well, striking (pun not intended).

Also, instead of calling the school out for hiring too many foreign trained or foreign born faculty, perhaps the issue should be whether these people are qualified to teach.

 

[anonimoose]

that guy made a thread a few days ago about how medicine attracts a lot of mediocre people. i think if you're willing to go to a school like cal northstate you fall into that category.

That's an unnecessary ad hominem attack. It's easy to be cavalier and condescending when posting anonymously, eh?

Dr. Goro, I am frankly disappointed that you "liked" that particular post. It's one thing to disagree or to be critical of the thoughts/motivations/decision-making of said individuals. It's quite another to label an entire student body of would-be physicians as "mediocre".

 

[foreverbuckeye]

That's an unnecessary ad hominem attack. It's easy to be cavalier and condescending when posting anonymously, eh?

Dr. Goro, I am frankly disappointed that you "liked" that particular post. It's one thing to disagree with a decision, or to be critical of the thoughts/motivations/decision-making of said individuals. It's quite another to label an entire student body of would-be physicians as "mediocre".

Not to mention very unprofessional.

 

[samac]

When people disagree with you, and people agree with the people disagreeing with you there is no need to be so defensive.
Goro and Gyngyn both have no personal reason to hate this school. It's another med school, and it's not like they're losing on applicants because of it. But both are saying some things that people should seriously be concerned about.
I think the lesson of this thread is go to this school with caution. If you already have an acceptance elsewhere you should probably take it.

 

[Goro]

To paraphrase Yoda; "Smelling of shill, I sense."

I get nervous when people start whining about "likes".

Stop taking this personally, it's a medical school, not a family member.

Not to mention very unprofessional.

 

[foreverbuckeye]

To paraphrase Yoda; "Smelling of shill, I sense."

I get nervous when people start whining about "likes".

Stop taking this personally, it's a medical school, not a family member.

I'm not the one taking it personally, apparently.

 

[SoonToBeDrG]

Dr. RogueUnicorn,



There's no need to be condescending, Dr. RogueUnicorn. I do understand the difference between speculation and articulation, and I agree that you primarily articulated (rather than speculated) scenarios in your response. However, when people write:



and



Those are affirmative, predictive (and I would argue, largely baseless) declarations of events that have yet to be determined. In other words, speculation.

It's been rampant in this particular thread.



No disagreement there, Dr. RogueUnicorn. This is absolutely horrible.



Worst-case scenario #1: There are currently six schools with preliminary accreditation by the LCME -- the i) University of Arizona College of Medicine at Phoenix (accredited in 2012), ii) CNUCOM (2015), iii) Central Michigan University College of Medicine (2012), iv) Western Michigan University School of Medicine (2012), v) CUNY School of Medicine (2015), and vi) the University of Texas at Austin Dell Medical School (2015):
http://www.lcme.org/directory.htm

That being said, I do agree that CNUCOM's for-profit status (and the other red flags raised by many in this thread) pose unique threats to its accreditation. However, Dr. RogueUnicorn, would you be able to articulate why your other worst-case scenarios are unique to CNUCOM? After all, the purpose of this thread is to specifically discuss the merits (or lack thereof) of CNUCOM's recent accreditation, not the worst-case scenarios of a medical career, overall.

Worst-case scenario #2: If (as you say) even Harvard, Stanford, and Hopkins don't have a 100% match rate, how is this worst-case scenario unique to CNUCOM? Will graduates of CNUCOM be demonstrably, appreciably worse-off than graduates of the five other preliminarily accredited medical schools, particularly the two other new ones (CUNY and UT Austin)? If so, why? If not, are you also critically commenting in their respective threads?

Worst-case scenario #3: Please refer to my response to worst-case scenarios #1 (is CNUCOM more likely to lose its preliminary accreditation than the other five schools? perhaps?) and #2 (failure to match is the risk of all medical students at all medical schools)

Worst-case scenario #4: Please refer to my response to worst-case scenario #2



Definitely-terrible scenario #1 and #2: Please refer to my response above to worst-case scenario #2 -- I fail to see how a student at CNUCOM is demonstrably more likely than a student at CUNY or UT Austin to match into a low-tier prelim spot or into a random program in an unwanted field




If one were being snarky, one could label the latter statement as speculation.





My point was that in order to have a legitimate thought exercise, we have to make a number of assumptions. If we want to speculate and predict how well (or poorly) a graduate of CNUCOM will fare (in comparing her/his hypothetical fate to what would've happened had she/he attended another medical school), we have to assume that the student in question will perform reasonably well enough at either school.



Dr. RogueUnicorn, I am not against speculation, per se. Clearly, we have engaged in a vigorous discussion of hypotheticals and what-ifs -- all speculation. I thank you for taking the time to map out all the worst-case and definitely-terribly scenarios that those of us with less experience may not appreciate. Furthermore, the real-world horror stories provided by Dr. gyngyn and Dr. Goro are extremely helpful examples/data points that shape and inform the conversation.

What I disagree with is definitive, blanket, (arguably baseless) speculative statements like "You're going to get a horrible education! You're going to graduate and there'll be no residencies available for you!" For those seeking to genuinely educate themselves about the pros (and the many cons) of CNUCOM, these are distracting speculative statements at best (and inflammatory at worst).



Dr. RogueUnicorn, so long as we're being nit-picky, I did not use all-caps (the internet-equivalent of yelling). Unless you're a site administrator who orders me otherwise, I will continue to use this forum's various functionalities to highlight, underscore, and/or otherwise enhance my (attempts at) communication.





This is an important nuance and a great point, Dr. RogueUnicorn.





I agree with you, Dr. RogueUnicorn.

Respectfully,
Moose

This was an extremely articulate response. If this site had all arguments structured as such......well I just can't imagine....

 

[melontea]

this is what I feel like is happening in this thread:

the adcoms in this thread, who have extensive experience with the operations and running of a medical school, sees this school as something that shouldn't even exist at this time. they want to inform us pre-meds about the shortcomings of this school, compared to every other medical school in the US (except LUCOM). however, this may seem offensive to the next group -->

the applicants who applied to/hope to attend this university have already made this school "their own." As such, they feel the need to defend the school every chance they get in order to make themselves feel like going to this school is a good choice. the reality is, going to this school may seem like a good choice to you just because it's an MD school in CA. now they are looking for reasons to help supplement their decision, but the criticisms of this school are holding that effort back.

 

[anonimoose]

To paraphrase Yoda; "Smelling of shill, I sense."

I get nervous when people start whining about "likes".

Stop taking this personally, it's a medical school, not a family member.

Dr. Goro,

Very well. This whiny, mediocre would-be doctor will stop taking things personally.

I think my participation in this thread has largely run its course. I will respond to Dr. RogueUnicorn (since I just responded to her/his post) or to anyone who addresses me personally, but otherwise, I'm

Dr. Goro, Dr. gyngyn, Dr. RogueUnicorn -- in all sincerity, thank you all for taking the time out of your medical careers to share your collective perspective, experience, and wisdom with those of us further down the path from you. It is appreciated.

And to all my fellow would-be doctors -- good luck. Let's stay focused on why we aspired to become physicians in the first place.

Respectfully,
Moose

 

[samac]

It's funny to read "Dr. Goro" and "Dr. Gyngyn" too.
I know you all have those titles in real life, but I never thought about referring to you all that way on an online forum.

 

[Doug Underhill]

I personally know one of the faculty members who was recruited fairly recently at California Northstate. She received her Ph.D from a HYPSM program and did a rigorous postdoc at a Top 10-ranked med school. I'm not sure if she will be teaching at the medical school.

 

[anonimoose]

this is what I feel like is happening in this thread:

the adcoms in this thread, who have extensive experience with the operations and running of a medical school, sees this school as something that shouldn't even exist at this time. they want to inform us pre-meds about the shortcomings of this school, compared to every other medical school in the US (except LUCOM). however, this may seem offensive to the next group -->

the applicants who applied to/hope to attend this university have already made this school "their own." As such, they feel the need to defend the school every chance they get in order to make themselves feel like going to this school is a good choice. the reality is, going to this school may seem like a good choice to you just because it's an MD school in CA. now they are looking for reasons to help supplement their decision, but the criticisms of this school are holding that effort back.

Sorry, one more.

melontea, this is a largely correct characterization, but with one exception: some of us are open to criticisms of CNUCOM and welcome the feedback of older and wiser physicians to help us make an informed decision (i.e. we're not just looking for validation of a pre-determined course of action).

However, what I've been consistently critical of is the largely baseless speculation on the part of some (e.g. "There aren't enough residencies for medical graduates! The education will be uniquely sub-par! Implication: all of you at CNUCOM are screwed!"). I've been critical of this rhetoric (and long-winded in my deconstruction of said speculation).

What I've (instead) been consistently asking for/requesting throughout my participation in this conversation, is fact-based, verifiable, and documented evidence either for or against CNUCOM to help facilitate decision-making -- not just for me, but for the benefit of all those considering the medical school (both now and for the future). I am an advocate for intelligent debate, whether or not I agree with the conclusions.

I think you'll find that every time someone has actually bothered to so in this thread, I have thanked them by name. (And I have done so respectfully, using titles and appellations that they have earned, much to samac's bemusement.) I have apologized and conceded where I've been wrong. And I hope I've added something to the discussion.

Respectfully,
Moose

 

[Goro]

I've noticed the same thing happens when the Carib schools are discussed.


the adcoms in this thread, who have extensive experience with the operations and running of a medical school, sees this school as something that shouldn't even exist at this time. they want to inform us pre-meds about the shortcomings of this school, compared to every other medical school in the US (except LUCOM). however, this may seem offensive to the next group -->

the applicants who applied to/hope to attend this university have already made this school "their own." As such, they feel the need to defend the school every chance they get in order to make themselves feel like going to this school is a good choice. the reality is, going to this school may seem like a good choice to you just because it's an MD school in CA. now they are looking for reasons to help supplement their decision, but the criticisms of this school are holding that effort back.[/QUOTE]

 

[SoonToBeDrG]

I've noticed the same thing happens when the Carib schools are discussed.


the adcoms in this thread, who have extensive experience with the operations and running of a medical school, sees this school as something that shouldn't even exist at this time. they want to inform us pre-meds about the shortcomings of this school, compared to every other medical school in the US (except LUCOM). however, this may seem offensive to the next group -->

the applicants who applied to/hope to attend this university have already made this school "their own." As such, they feel the need to defend the school every chance they get in order to make themselves feel like going to this school is a good choice. the reality is, going to this school may seem like a good choice to you just because it's an MD school in CA. now they are looking for reasons to help supplement their decision, but the criticisms of this school are holding that effort back.

Yikes, that comparison shows a huge lack of faith in LCME's prelim accreditation.