Dartmouth vs. Minnesota vs. Vermont?

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stormjen

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Howdy. As you can see from the title, I am debating the merits and drawbacks of these three programs. It is probable that they will be the top three choices in my final rank order list, the question thus being - in what order?

Location aside, what would one consider the quality and reputation of these three to be? Minnesota used to be top-tier, I think, but lost a bunch of pathologists a while back. Dartmouth has that ivy name, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily a reputable program. Vermont is rumored to be malignant, but does that mean rigorous, thus good?

Yaah, I know (hope) you will answer this, as I've seen you talk about these programs before, so thanks in advance. :)

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Though Dartmouth has an Ivy name. I don't think it's considered a great program. My mentor said it was "crappy" and dismissed it outright. He could be absolutely wrong of course. The location sounds fabulous!
 
jeff2005 said:
Though Dartmouth has an Ivy name. I don't think it's considered a great program. My mentor said it was "crappy" and dismissed it outright. He could be absolutely wrong of course. The location sounds fabulous!

So what you're saying is that I stand a chance of getting in! Fabulous! :D

But I really do hope it's not crappy; that'd be a crying shame.
 
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Dartmouth is FAR from a crappy program. It used to be. But most of the staff are new and are there because they want to teach and mentor young residents. Unfortunately, they have not gotten a great crop so far, although there are some good residents there (from what I have heard). Some of the staff are really great though - I think you will be able to judge for yourself.

The newer staff have trained at great programs (MGH, MSKCC, Penn, among others) and, as I said, do not have platinum rods up their butts like many attendings at famous institutions.

Honestly I came very close to ranking Dartmouth #1. I love the location - very peaceful, and in the mountains (NH is my favorite place on earth). Problem was it is almost too isolated. Again, if I had my own family to cart around I would have probably loved it more (like with Iowa). I got the impression that a motivated resident would have a lot of success - the attendings are interested in mentoring and helping you out. It is, however, a somewhat small program. It's a big hospital but not THAT big. So the volume is less. The hospital is newer, though, but the path department is somewhat squeezed for space. I believe they are expanding to take care of this though. Dartmouth-Hitchcock used to be closely associated with Lahey Clinic (just south in central-eastern Mass) but now they are more independent and have probably lost some business. It's tough to be a major hospital in New England when you are just 2 hours from Boston. I did tell the PD at my exit interview that I really was impressed by the program and was strongly considering it (which was true) and he said "We hope we see you and would love for you to come here, stranger things have happened!" (I think he thought I was leading them on or something).

Vermont used to be one of the more malignant programs, with very long hours and aggressive attendings. But it has mellowed. You still work hard, apparently, on surg path and some CP rotations. But there are some new attendings (and a new PD who I don't know) who are more teaching oriented and friendly. The director of AP (or surg path), Dr Cooper is a fantastic guy, wonderful pathologist, but somehow I get the sense he may be drawn away by a bigger name program. Burlington is a decent city, fairly expensive I believe, isolated (about 4 hrs from boston), and it somewhat of a socialist paradise (lots of public transportation, recycling, eco-friendly foods and stores. The facilities there are somewhat older, although I believe the new construction there will include new path facilities. Thus, you would come out of VT well trained and many recommend it as a great place for training for almost any type of resident (researchers, private practitioners, etc). So yes, rigorous. They expect their residents to do well. They also do believe that their program offers most everything, and they are probably right. The volume, again, is not as high as other places, but it's enough. I think one of their residents is coming out here for a hemepath fellowship in the next couple of years.

U Minnesota I don't know much about except that it used to be perhaps one of the best path departments in the world before the institution somewhat imploded with financial difficulties. Rosai was there at the time. I have only indirectly heard things about it, and these things seem promising. So I would recommend visiting. Minneapolis is fairly nice - traffic is becoming a bear if you have to commute in on I-35 or 52 or 494 (I went to college in Minnesota).

What all these places share is the winter! Great stuff.
 
Thanks so much, I knew I could count on you to give me the scoop. I am so incredibly pleased to have the option of doing my Path residency in one of those three amazing locations. I will probably end up ranking Dartmouth #1, so I'm glad to hear it's not a bad program. The isolation would be less of an issue for me since I am married and never go out anyway (except to tromp in the woods). Vermont sounds completely do-able, even with long hours. I am prepared to work, and in fact would prefer to be busy. (Not MGH busy though, nuh uh, no sir.) Minnesota could still work for me, even without the "top program in the universe" title. I'll be a lowly community pathologist, after all, not a supremo academico pathologisto.

Options are fun! :thumbup:

Connections in bad airports: not so fun! :scared:

I'll be sure to add reviews to scutwork after I visit these programs, so the next applicant who comes along won't have to go digging for info.
 
Has anyone else visited Minnesota yet? They are about halfway through their interviews.

It is a large program, encompassing a university hospital, a county hospital, a private hospital and a VA. Definitely does not lack for specimen diversity.

This is a highly personal interview experience - I will be focusing a great deal on what bothered me - so please take it with a sack of salt. I'll see if I can do a more cut-and-dried pros/cons post on the Interview Experiences thread later.

This is how it went: I came away from the interview feeling a little disconcerted.

I only met four faculty members, and what I thought was a key meeting with the director of AP/Surg path lasted barely 20 minutes.

I felt like they had time to know me, and less so the other way.

I had tons of questions, and insufficient time to ask them. At the end I still felt like I had only vague ideas of what the program was about.

I kept feeling like everyone there was convinced it was a strong program, but couldn't tell me much more than that - almost as if they thought it was all I needed to know.

(Possibly some of this is due to the fact that it is very large. And perhaps I was biased, since this was on the tails of Iowa which offered any and every answer you could possibly want, and answered the questions you never even thought about.)

I had a dinner with one resident and her family (this apparently doesn't happen all the time - we were put in contact with one another because she has a similar academic/travel history to mine), and lunch with two residents and another candidate.

The dinner was a nice touch - although since we had similar backgrounds and were far from home and the dinner was taking place in her home, it ended up that a quarter to a third of the time was spent talking UMN Path, while the rest was spent asking after mutual acquaintances, talking to her husband (I felt any less would have been rude) with time for domestic interruptions.

The lunch was a tad weird - the two residents and other candidate would be comparing MSP to Boston, and onward to what a great city New York was - while I would interject with questions re: how approachable faculty really were, and how surg path worked at the different centres. Answers were a little formulaic.

They are IMG-friendly - the residents I met were all IMGs, and so was the candidate interviewing with me. It would have been nice though, to have an American grad's input.

I know interview day experiences are shaped by the people one meets - what I really want to do is get in touch with the residents I didn't meet. Any thoughts on how I can achieve that?
 
Hi deschutes,

Thanks for contributing your interview experience. My interview there is scheduled for next month, so I will see if mine is similar to yours. I'm a little worried, since Minnesota is one of my top choices. I had assumed I'd be able to learn everything I needed to know to make an informed rank order list.

In contrast, I recently interviewed at Vermont and had a wonderful experience. I got all my questions answered and more, and flew home that evening with it moved to #1 on my mental ROL.
 
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yaah said:
They also do believe that their program offers most everything, and they are probably right. The volume, again, is not as high as other places, but it's enough. I think one of their residents is coming out here for a hemepath fellowship in the next couple of years.

Yes, I met her!
 
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