Dear Surgery Residents: go %&$# yourselves. Sincerely, MS3

[Siggy]

Well, to be fair... Not all calls are exciting. You think every page is OMG important? Nope. So, if anything, it let's you know how much residents enjoy call.

Overnight pages tend to alternate between, "MD notified, no new orders," and "Restoril 7.5 PO x 1."

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[Pisiform]

Let me tell you what happened today. So there is a conference room, 5 rows - that room is shared by fm, im, surg what not residency so i have been there before for resident conferences where med students just sit in and eat their lunch. So its more for the residents and less for med students. Anywho, so i got my food and took a place on 3rd row. The resident sitting next to me said "are you a chief?" I got confused and i was like umm no what do you mean?" He said "get up, dont sit here, its for the chiefs". So i took my food and got on to a new chair in the 2nd row. The residents on that row said - don't sit here either- junior resident sit here. I was so pissed. Those seats are regular theater seats, no one is assigned anything, but they had to mess with me and my food.

Surgeons arent decent people at all. No manners. Freakin bullies

 

[Psai]

Let me tell you what happened today. So there is a conference room, 5 rows - that room is shared by fm, im, surg what not residency so i have been there before for resident conferences where med students just sit in and eat their lunch. So its more for the residents and less for med students. Anywho, so i got my food and took a place on 3rd row. The resident sitting next to me said "are you a chief?" I got confused and i was like umm no what do you mean?" He said "get up, dont sit here, its for the chiefs". So i took my food and got on to a new chair in the 2nd row. The residents on that row said - don't sit here either- junior resident sit here. I was so pissed. Those seats are regular theater seats, no one is assigned anything, but they had to mess with me and my food.

Surgeons arent decent people at all. No manners. Freakin bullies

lol this happened to me
I was sitting in the attendings only section

 

[VisionaryTics]

Let me tell you what happened today. So there is a conference room, 5 rows - that room is shared by fm, im, surg what not residency so i have been there before for resident conferences where med students just sit in and eat their lunch. So its more for the residents and less for med students. Anywho, so i got my food and took a place on 3rd row. The resident sitting next to me said "are you a chief?" I got confused and i was like umm no what do you mean?" He said "get up, dont sit here, its for the chiefs". So i took my food and got on to a new chair in the 2nd row. The residents on that row said - don't sit here either- junior resident sit here. I was so pissed. Those seats are regular theater seats, no one is assigned anything, but they had to mess with me and my food.

Surgeons arent decent people at all. No manners. Freakin bullies

lol this happened to me
I was sitting in the attendings only section

Our conferences are strictly arranged by hierarchy. Med students up front, interns behind, then going back up each row to the chiefs. Attendings sit in the rear. Surgical residencies are more hierarchical. Sorry, I guess.

 

[Kaustikos]

Our conferences are strictly arranged by hierarchy. Med students up front, interns behind, then going back up each row to the chiefs. Attendings sit in the rear. Surgical residencies are more hierarchical. Sorry, I guess.

M&M and grand rounds are in this massive lecture hall. Residents/students sit in side seats. Only attendings sit in the middle seats.
They have a lot of elbow room...

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[Señor S]

Our conferences are strictly arranged by hierarchy. Med students up front, interns behind, then going back up each row to the chiefs. Attendings sit in the rear. Surgical residencies are more hierarchical. Sorry, I guess.

Every rotation so far has had some version of this. It's mildly lame but insignificant in the scheme of third year humiliations.

 

[Winged Scapula]

<shrug> Every conference I've been to has had this seating hierarchy.

Heck, if you sit in some random nurses chair as a student they'll give you grief.

 

[WinslowPringle]

Let me tell you what happened today. So there is a conference room, 5 rows - that room is shared by fm, im, surg what not residency so i have been there before for resident conferences where med students just sit in and eat their lunch. So its more for the residents and less for med students. Anywho, so i got my food and took a place on 3rd row. The resident sitting next to me said "are you a chief?" I got confused and i was like umm no what do you mean?" He said "get up, dont sit here, its for the chiefs". So i took my food and got on to a new chair in the 2nd row. The residents on that row said - don't sit here either- junior resident sit here. I was so pissed. Those seats are regular theater seats, no one is assigned anything, but they had to mess with me and my food.

Surgeons arent decent people at all. No manners. Freakin bullies

Hey, at least he told you. Would you feel worse if the row filled up and you were the only med student in the row of chiefs? *Shudder* I don't know about you - sounds like you'd be fine with it - but that's the kind of non-written rule breaking social faux pas that gives me cold chills. No way on earth would I want to be caught looking like a presumptuous or clueless med student trying to kick it with the attendings.

Is it hierarchical? Sure. But most programs and places and events where people gather in a regular, proscribed manner are like that. Happened to me on IM, OB. Has happened in the free theatre in the park when the regular little old lady attender gave me the most glorious stare down for sitting in 'her' seat. People are territorial.

 

[Pisiform]

Hey, at least he told you. Would you feel worse if the row filled up and you were the only med student in the row of chiefs? *Shudder* I don't know about you - sounds like you'd be fine with it - but that's the kind of non-written rule breaking social faux pas that gives me cold chills. No way on earth would I want to be caught looking like a presumptuous or clueless med student trying to kick it with the attendings.

Is it hierarchical? Sure. But most programs and places and events where people gather in a regular, proscribed manner are like that. Happened to me on IM, OB. Has happened in the free theatre in the park when the regular little old lady attender gave me the most glorious stare down for sitting in 'her' seat. People are territorial.

When i was leaving, there was another clueless med student and a PAnstudent sitting on chiefs row. No one said anything to them but oh well i was the scape goat. I get the point though

 

[Kaustikos]

<shrug> Every conference I've been to has had this seating hierarchy.

Heck, if you sit in some random nurses chair as a student they'll give you grief.

Yeah. I don't think I've been to... Oh wait, radiology. They didn't care where you sit, gave you food all the time, hugged you and took care of you. Let you pick your own grade....

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[Pisiform]

Yeah. I don't think I've been to... Oh wait, radiology. They didn't care where you sit, gave you food all the time, hugged you and took care of you. Let you pick your own grade....

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Exactly, i have attended conferences in the same hall when i was in IM, FM etc. no bull**** like that. Surgeons are just bitchy and terrible ...

 

[Psai]

Our conferences are strictly arranged by hierarchy. Med students up front, interns behind, then going back up each row to the chiefs. Attendings sit in the rear. Surgical residencies are more hierarchical. Sorry, I guess.

Ours was the opposite where being in front was a symbol of status. Thank god one of the interns was like psst come back here

 

[Apoplexy__]

Is there really a dermatopathology club at your school?

No, but Hippocrates really did say that.

 

[Pisiform]

Whatever man, maybe not all surgery residents are like that who like to belittle med students, make fun of them etc but I am stuck in that environment for 6 more weeks. They need to get off their high horse of arrogance .. They are not doing "Gods work" by doing I&D, or lap chole. Thats their freakin job

 

[Pisiform]

In all honestly, the biggest turn off to surgery residency was the attitude of residents. Hours are long and grueling but one could put up with that if the atmosphere was nice. I just hate it. I could easily put on a smile and go above and beyond but in the end just to get mocked and treated like crap? ... nope. I don't want to be bullied for first 3 yrs nor want to become one for next 2

 

[themockjock]

Whatever man, maybe not all surgery residents are like that who like to belittle med students, make fun of them etc but I am stuck in that environment for 6 more weeks. They need to get off their high horse of arrogance .. They are not doing "Gods work" by doing I&D, or lap chole. Thats their freakin job

With an attitude like that, it must be inconceivable that any surgeon or surgery resident would be anything but nice and accommodating to you, huh?

It's a 2 way street, kids. The eye rolling, sighs, and contempt for surgery/surgeons in general gets noticed. And when it does, please don't be surprised if I don't fall all over myself to give you an amazing experience.

 

[Pisiform]

With an attitude like that, it must be inconceivable that any surgeon or surgery resident would be anything but nice and accommodating to you, huh?

It's a 2 way street, kids. The eye rolling, sighs, and contempt for surgery/surgeons in general gets noticed. And when it does, please don't be surprised if I don't fall all over myself to give you an amazing experience.

Yep, still on your high horse ... Keep riding

 

[Psai]

In all honestly, the biggest turn off to surgery residency was the attitude of residents. Hours are long and grueling but one could put up with that if the atmosphere was nice. I just hate it. I could easily put on a smile and go above and beyond but in the end just to get mocked and treated like crap? ... nope. I don't want to be bullied for first 3 yrs nor want to become one for next 2

Getting up early, going to bed late and being busy all the time turns even the nicest person into a monster. I was a completely miserable person on my surgery rotation and it was only a few weeks long

 

[seminoma]

In all honestly, the biggest turn off to surgery residency was the attitude of residents. Hours are long and grueling but one could put up with that if the atmosphere was nice. I just hate it. I could easily put on a smile and go above and beyond but in the end just to get mocked and treated like crap? ... nope. I don't want to be bullied for first 3 yrs nor want to become one for next 2

If you do it for the well-being of the patients and for your own educational benefit then you might not care as much about how the resident(s) don't praise your efforts. I felt like you did while on my medicine rotation earlier this year and someone called me out on doing things for evals or approval or praise from residents/attendings. I changed my mindset and things are much more enjoyable.

I'm on family right now and patients regularly say nice things (both to me and to the attending about me), but my attending routinely pimps me until I don't know the answer and then shakes his head when I say "I don't know". To make matters worse he picks and chooses what EBM he wants to follow so even if my plan involves the correct EBM I get shot down and I'm pretty sure he thinks I'm ******ed. For example he pays no attention to ASCVD recommendations and instead puts 45 year old hypertensive diabetic smokers with CAD on 10mg lipitor and tells me 40 is way too high (he'd probably fail me if I recommended 80). This would've driven me crazy 2 months ago, but now I just keep my head down and learn as much as I can.

 

[Psai]

If you do it for the well-being of the patients and for your own educational benefit then you might not care as much about how the resident(s) don't praise your efforts. I felt like you did while on my medicine rotation earlier this year and someone called me out on doing things for evals or approval or praise from residents/attendings. I changed my mindset and things are much more enjoyable.

I'm on family right now and patients regularly say nice things (both to me and to the attending about me), but my attending routinely pimps me until I don't know the answer and then shakes his head when I say "I don't know". To make matters worse he picks and chooses what EBM he wants to follow so even if my plan involves the correct EBM I get shot down and I'm pretty sure he thinks I'm ******ed. For example he pays no attention to ASCVD recommendations and instead puts 45 year old hypertensive diabetic smokers with CAD on 10mg lipitor and tells me 40 is way too high (he'd probably fail me if I recommended 80). This would've driven me crazy 2 months ago, but now I just keep my head down and learn as much as I can.

Recommendations are just recommendations and never a replacement for clinical judgment.

 

[seminoma]

Recommendations are just recommendations and never a replacement for clinical judgment.

Yeah.. but putting someone with a 35% 10-year ASCVD risk with no contraindications on 10mg statin is poor clinical judgment.

 

[Modeselektor]

Yeah.. but putting someone with a 35% 10-year ASCVD risk with no contraindications on 10mg statin is poor clinical judgment.

If he's being started on it, your attending is going to adjust later depending on response. It is standard practice to start low and then increase to the lowest dose necessary to bring the levels down. These are medications that patients will be taking for a long time.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

If he's being started on it, your attending is going to adjust later depending on response. It is standard practice to start low and then increase to the lowest dose necessary to bring the levels down. These are medications that patients will be taking for a long time.

No, its really not. A) The evidence such as it is points to benefit from statin dose independent of lipid levels B) Side effects are not generally dose dependent C) Current guidelines suggest dosing based on risk assessment and then just sticking with it.

 

[seminoma]

If he's being started on it, your attending is going to adjust later depending on response. It is standard practice to start low and then increase to the lowest dose necessary to bring the levels down. These are medications that patients will be taking for a long time.

There's no way you could know this, but many a >7.5% 10-year risk patient has followed up and been continued on their low-dose statin without discussion or even mentioning the med other than "is this medication list still accurate?". My preceptor seems to be using the ATP III guidelines because he says things like "their cholesterol looks good so we don't need to adjust the dose" and "what is the LDL goal for this patient?".

Also the start low and increase is not the standard practice for statins. It's start in the appropriate intensity and adjust if not tolerated.

 

[Modeselektor]

Well sh.it it looks like you all are right.

 

[tco]

This is what we call making a mountain out of a molehill.

They did you a favor by telling you.

No, they're jerks.

They could have said, "This is where x residents sit. You can sit in y row (or you should stand, sorry)."

Come to Radiology. You'll have a broader knowledge base, work better and cleaner hours, have nice coworkers, make more money, and laugh at the surgeons when they think they can read something that varies even a little bit from the only finding that they know (when a general surgeon tries to read a chest x-ray, for instance). You'll, unfortunately, still have to deal with surgeons daily.

 

[Brorthopedic]

No, they're jerks.

They could have said, "This is where x residents sit. You can sit in y row (or you should stand, sorry)."

Come to Radiology. You'll have a broader knowledge base, work better and cleaner hours, have nice coworkers, make more money, and laugh at the surgeons when they think they can read something that varies even a little bit from the only finding that they know (when a general surgeon tries to read a chest x-ray, for instance). You'll, unfortunately, still have to deal with surgeons daily.

Shots fired.

 

[cbrons]

Surgeon gave me a score of 2/4 on my eval under the category of "Patient Care" yet I didnt see any of his patients (all I did was shadow). Lol.

 

[Pisiform]

So today, bunch of people and my team got on an elevator and i was the last one to get in. So i was facing the door and I thought we were going to 3rd floor but apparently we were to go to 4. When the elevator stopped at 4th floor, someone from behind pushed me really hard that i almost fell and later i heard a voice " we are getting off here". A warning would have been nice

 

[Mad Jack]

A lot of it is simply what you make of it. I had a great experience as a 3rd year on surgery and I think night call was the best part of the rotation. I got to do a lot of stuff, see a ton of patients, and got a sense of what it felt like to be up for >24 hours in the hospital. My residents asked me what kind of stuff I was interested in and what I wanted to see and they made sure to involved me with relevant things when possible. Even the interns, while busy and trying to figure out which way was up, were kind and helpful to me. Oddly, when we had our feedback session at the end of the rotation, many of the other students blasted the night calls much like people in this thread have done. In this case, they all had the same night float team that I had, yet came away with drastically different experiences. While you can chalk some of that up to variance between nights, I think much of it has to do with what your expectations are going in and how hard you work to make your experience into something worthwhile.

Then again, there's plenty of us who have zero interest in surgery and view greater than 24 hours straight of it as being akin to hell on earth. If you're into surgery, it may seem awesome, if you're not, it's like, why the **** am I going through this.

 

[Gambler 101]

In all honestly, the biggest turn off to surgery residency was the attitude of residents. Hours are long and grueling but one could put up with that if the atmosphere was nice. I just hate it. I could easily put on a smile and go above and beyond but in the end just to get mocked and treated like crap? ... nope. I don't want to be bullied for first 3 yrs nor want to become one for next 2

From one M3 to another, such as life. Try to find some part of the rotation you enjoy. For me it was post op exams and consults. I'd openly say those were my favorite things and ask if there were any available (or pay attention and do them when obvious). The residents were happy to have the help, and it meant I wasn't bickering with my classmates over various procedures. When something cool came up, it was offered to me probably because I didn't mind the scut work.

It's also obvious that we get the worst seats. We don't have anything too interesting to say, so I'd normally either sit somewhere near the intern (or even ask where to sit) or sit in the crappy seats along the wall. Some days I was lucky enough to get invited to sit at the table. Mostly I survived by finding ways to make their lives easier, and in return, I found they were happy to let me do cool things in the OR.

 

[W19]

Most surgeons give the profession a bad name... I think these guys are the reason of all the fluffy **** (i.e.professionalism etc...) that are added to med school curriculum..

 

[Psai]

Most surgeons give the profession a bad name... I think these guys are the reason of all the fluffy **** (i.e.professionalism etc...) that are added to med school curriculum..

Dude stop sharing your opinion

 

[W19]

Dude stop sharing your opinion

I haven't seen anyone provide a citation here on what they say... By the way, it's not an opinion; it's an observation since I worked with surgeons for a couple of years.

 

[Psai]

I haven't seen anyone provide a citation here on what they say... By the way, it's not an opinion; it's an observation since I worked with surgeons for a couple of years.

I've provided a citation for approximately none of my posts. Look up what an opinion is, you'll find that your "observation" fits very nicely.

 

[W19]

I've provided a citation for approximately none of my posts. Look up what an opinion is, you'll find that your "observation" fits very nicely.

Mr. Shakespeare

 

[Serous Demilune]

From one M3 to another, such as life. Try to find some part of the rotation you enjoy. For me it was post op exams and consults. I'd openly say those were my favorite things and ask if there were any available (or pay attention and do them when obvious). The residents were happy to have the help, and it meant I wasn't bickering with my classmates over various procedures. When something cool came up, it was offered to me probably because I didn't mind the scut work.

It's also obvious that we get the worst seats. We don't have anything too interesting to say, so I'd normally either sit somewhere near the intern (or even ask where to sit) or sit in the crappy seats along the wall. Some days I was lucky enough to get invited to sit at the table. Mostly I survived by finding ways to make their lives easier, and in return, I found they were happy to let me do cool things in the OR.

Hey you've got some **** on your nose and mouth area, you should wipe that off.

 

[akwho]

Serious reply: Surgeons are rough around the edges, but you will never find a group of harder working people more dedicated to the patient in all of medicine. Realize that they have more to do in a day than most do in a week, and if they are harsh its because they found it generates efficiency. Work, work, work. Turn criticism into learning opportunities. I had a surgical attending in my chosen sub-specialty field tell me "you don't even know how to be a med student." I ignored his personal fusillades and focused on improving based on his (helpful) criticisms - end result was Honors and very nice comments for my MSPE. If you want the essence of being a surgeon read the intro in Surgical Recall twice before day one of MS3 Gen Surg, then breathe it, live it and be rewarded with intimate knowledge of the human body and disease processes that only a surgeon will experience.

 

[Kaustikos]

I haven't seen anyone provide a citation here on what they say... By the way, it's not an opinion; it's an observation since I worked with surgeons for a couple of years.

A couple years? Wow. Is that significant? Because I've worked more years in several programs in different states and argue otherwise. Yes, there are bad people in surgery (like any profession), but I've yet to see the distinction you find.
I've experienced the bad, but those have been the minority. People just seem to believe that the stereotype always exist and predispose themselves into the mindset that things will suck. Heaven forbid they keep an open mind. Surgeons don't expect you to love what they do. They do expect you to learn about what they do so that when you specialize in another field, you can carry on a consult/conversation in a competent manner. Better yet: does that mean people interested in surgery should behave the same way during medical school and be all "why can't third year be all surgery? I don't care about medicine at all!"

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[W19]

@Kaustikos I worked in healthcare for 7 seven years before going to med school, and I have noticed that this group (mostly general and ortho surgeons) are different from other physicians I worked with... They are a bunch of hot head arrogant pricks. The title of this thread is: 'Dear Surgery Residents: go %&$# yourselves. Sincerely, MS3' Have you ever seen a similar thread about another specialty in SDN? The person who started this thread is just saying what everyone else is thinking... Anesthesia is one of the specialties that I would never consider because of these guys... No one likes to work in a hostile environment...

 

[Siggy]

Serious reply: Surgeons are rough around the edges, but you will never find a group of harder working people more dedicated to the patient in all of medicine. Realize that they have more to do in a day than most do in a week, and if they are harsh its because they found it generates efficiency. Work, work, work. Turn criticism into learning opportunities. I had a surgical attending in my chosen sub-specialty field tell me "you don't even know how to be a med student." I ignored his personal fusillades and focused on improving based on his (helpful) criticisms - end result was Honors and very nice comments for my MSPE. If you want the essence of being a surgeon read the intro in Surgical Recall twice before day one of MS3 Gen Surg, then breathe it, live it and be rewarded with intimate knowledge of the human body and disease processes that only a surgeon will experience.

I didn't realize that being busy is an excuse for acting like a petulant child.

Strangely enough, most of the surgical attendings at the county hospital I spent most of my 3rd year at managed not to act like petulant children.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Hey you've got some **** on your nose and mouth area, you should wipe that off.

Are we in junior high where anyone who has a good attitude or works hard is sneered at?

 

[Psai]

Are we in junior high where anyone who has a good attitude or works hard is sneered at?

This is the american way

 

[themockjock]

just saying what everyone else is thinking

Some days I wake up and say "self, go %&$# yourself." mhmm.

I take pride in really trying to go out of my way to work with med students and teach them/let them do procedures. I love surgery and I love my job - and I genuinely enjoy sharing that with students and hopefully even get a couple to feel the same way I do about surgery.

But I'm really busy and frequently stressed and still feel like an abject idiot on occasion myself.

So if there's a med student who is operating from a position of "%&$# you" because you think that 4am is a stupid time to get up or because the OR is beneath you, Mr. Future Oncologist, or because an attending looked at you sideways, or whatever, there is no way in hell that I am going to give you the time of day, yet alone go out of my way, stay later, come earlier (all of which I have done for med students who've at least shown an interest in what I do) so as to teach you something.

BTW, when you have a problem with everyone in a given group, quite often the problem is you, son.

 

[Winged Scapula]

This is the american way

Which is why so many countries are out doing us in terms of education; it's just not cool to be smart and hard-working.

 

[W19]

BTW, when you have a problem with everyone in a given group, quite often the problem is you, son.

Sure that above statement applies to surgeons... To be fair, it's mostly general and ortho surgeons.

 

[PL198]

Sure that above statement applies to surgeons... To be fair, it's mostly general and ortho surgeons.

aren't you preclinical? when have you even interacted with a surgeon besides a random lecture or two

 

[Pisiform]

Which is why so many countries are out doing us in terms of education; it's just not cool to be smart and hard-working.

This is ludicrous. Other countries are not out doing us by being jerks or belittling


Anyways, since my gen surg rotation is coming to an end, i would like to say few things. Even though i didnt like lots of things that happened, i was able to work with couple of good attendings. And I am glad my intern was patient enough with me to teach me how to close up the body after the operating, doing postop checks, seeing clinic pts rtc. At least i am leaving with something i learn. My junior was horrible during first week until i got to know his sense of humor which is very odd. Biggest dick was my senior though and i still dont like him. He tries to pimp me every now and then with senior level questions and literally makes fun of me in front of everyone but i myself had a very thick skin.
At the end, its not as bad as it started out in the first week. You guys dont make us feel welcome or give direction as a new comer. Just a constructive criticism, any med student coming to surgery comes down with a preconceived notion that surgeons sucks, and you guys reinforce that idea during the first day of rotation or first week. Please try not to do that. ... My experience sig improved over the days but still i get abused couple of times a week but at least i am leaving the rotation with learning a lot at least

I cant believe the sacrifices you guys made because i cannot do surgery for the life of me. Bad hours, taking crap for 5 yrs and then research or fellowship and then still bad hrs as an attending. But dont forget you chose that specialty and it doesnt give you the right to be constant jerks. As a surgeon, it should be your job to inspire med school kids to pursue surgery rather than scaring them away even though u might havent experience it when you yourself were a student. Time to change things. And first step towards that is admitting there is something wrong with surgeons attitude

 

[W19]

aren't you preclinical? when have you even interacted with a surgeon besides a random lecture or two

Worked for almost 3 years in the OR... Some surgeons had to take a sensitivity class because they were so hot headed... Hospital had to settle a lawsuit with an employee after she was abused verbally and physically by a surgeon... I was told she got 100k, but we weren't allowed to talk about it...

 

[Psai]

Worked for almost 3 years in the OR... Some surgeons had to take a sensitivity class because they were so hot headed... Hospital had to settle a lawsuit with an employee after she was abused verbally and physically by a surgeon... I was told she got 100k, but we weren't allowed to talked about it...

If you're not allowed to talk about it, why the hell are you talking about it?